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Angelus Mortis
14-02-2008, 23:08
Just was glancing thru some archive stuff and it came to me. Feral Orks. You mean theres such a thing as a civilized Ork? :wtf: Any other silliness you've found just for a laugh?

celdiruen
14-02-2008, 23:14
All Orks are feral to some extent, persay, but the "Feral" feral orks are the ones that are seperated from the rest of the ork society and live in the jungle, for example. They are more feral than regular orks, use weaps that they find or things like claws, etc.

Just had to say that, cause feral orks are cool ;)

I'm sure I've found lots of stuff that is redundant but can't think of anything off the top of my head. GW has also backtracked on some parts of the fluff and contradicted themselves repeadetly.:eek:

Wyatt
14-02-2008, 23:17
Venerable Dreadnoughts. Bearing in mind a dreadnought is a veteran.

The Guy
14-02-2008, 23:21
Venerable Dreadnoughts. Bearing in mind a dreadnought is a veteran.

On that note, veteran space marines. Just doesn't make sense.

llama rider
14-02-2008, 23:23
orks have more clothing and armor on than catachans, yet catachans have a better save
not that im complaining

SAMAS
15-02-2008, 00:51
It's not racist, just wrong.

The correct term is Mongols on Horses.

Chaplain of Chaos
15-02-2008, 00:53
True *********** mongols... always stealing my horses.

; )

The Adeptus Mechanicus, I don't know their whole nature seems oxymoronic to me.

Firaxin
15-02-2008, 00:55
Everyone knows that they don't actually guard anything. they just die until the real defenders of humanity can show up.

'Nids, right? ;)

Admiral Koppenflak
15-02-2008, 01:03
More a rules Snafu, but, as good a place as any to bring it up;

A squad of Cadian Whiteshields are charged by Khorne Berserkers... A nearby Leman Russ Demolisher witnesses this sorry carnage... The following ensues....

"Sir! The men of second platoon!"

"Yes, I can see that, Gunner."

"We should fire while they have them occupied! Emperor protect their brave souls..."

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!
*Arm flies out of the melee, followed by a head; curdling screams of terror*

"...Fire on soldiers engaged in close combat!?? That would go against every tennant of the Tactica Imperium! We might hit our own troops!"

"Oh, sweet mercy! GAAAAHAHHHH!! Do it! For the love of the Emperor! We're all dead!"
Maim! Kill! Burn!"

"...This is so wrong...."

MrPickles
15-02-2008, 01:09
Terminators without terminator armor. Someone had to say it.

Angelus Mortis
15-02-2008, 01:15
Terminators without terminator armor. Someone had to say it.

And how exactly would you come up with that?

Norminator
15-02-2008, 01:18
And how exactly would you come up with that?

Terminators aren't listed as having terminator armour in Codex: Space Marines.

Auzu
15-02-2008, 01:20
Deleted some off topic posts so please stay on topic.

Thank you.

Angelus Mortis
15-02-2008, 01:22
Terminators aren't listed as having terminator armour in Codex: Space Marines.

Thats kind of streching I think Bro, it calls them Terminators under number/squad heading. Meh...kind of iffyish. I was thinking of the more glaring stuff rather than typos. Kind of like my feral Ork post, as I would hardly consider normal Ork "society" to be civilised. Thats kind of obvious. A codex typo/ambiguous description...not so much.

Norminator
15-02-2008, 01:32
Thats kind of streching I think Bro, it calls them Terminators under number/squad heading. Meh...kind of iffyish. I was thinking of the more glaring stuff rather than typos. Kind of like my feral Ork post, as I would hardly consider normal Ork "society" to be civilised. Thats kind of obvious. A codex typo/ambiguous description...not so much.

Don't shoot the messenger, I don't agree with it, it's just where the idea comes from AFAIK.

Geddonight
15-02-2008, 01:50
It occurs to me that Imperial Guard Conscripts are a bit redundant... I mean, according to the fluff, pretty much all Infantrymen are conscripted and given an uplifting primer.

Angelus Mortis
15-02-2008, 01:56
It occurs to me that Imperial Guard Conscripts are a bit redundant... I mean, according to the fluff, pretty much all Infantrymen are conscripted and given an uplifting primer.

That is a good point. I also thought of that just the other day when I was drawing up an IG list. Good one.

oceansoul
15-02-2008, 01:57
If my brain works correctly, I believe the Feral Orks bit originated from a second ed. scenario in White Dwarf. It was Guard vs Orks, with the Orks being Feral Orks to explain the changes to their statline, WS was increased to 4, BS was reduced to 2.

Rioghan Murchadha
15-02-2008, 02:02
Thats kind of streching I think Bro, it calls them Terminators under number/squad heading. Meh...kind of iffyish. I was thinking of the more glaring stuff rather than typos. Kind of like my feral Ork post, as I would hardly consider normal Ork "society" to be civilised. Thats kind of obvious. A codex typo/ambiguous description...not so much.

It's not stretching it at all.. Terminator armour is a particular piece of wargear. Every other codex that has 'terminators' in it has terminator armour listed either under the unit's kit, or special rules. It also comes with rules connotations. Models with terminator armour cannot sweeping advance for one, and can move and fire heavy weapons. If you read the SM dex, they also don't have a 5+ invulnerable save. It's not included anywhere in their rules.

Warp Zero
15-02-2008, 02:05
More a rules Snafu, but, as good a place as any to bring it up;

A squad of Cadian Whiteshields are charged by Khorne Berserkers... A nearby Leman Russ Demolisher witnesses this sorry carnage... The following ensues....

"Sir! The men of second platoon!"

"Yes, I can see that, Gunner."

"We should fire while they have them occupied! Emperor protect their brave souls..."

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!
*Arm flies out of the melee, followed by a head; curdling screams of terror*

"...Fire on soldiers engaged in close combat!?? That would go against every tennant of the Tactica Imperium! We might hit our own troops!"

"Oh, sweet mercy! GAAAAHAHHHH!! Do it! For the love of the Emperor! We're all dead!"
Maim! Kill! Burn!"

"...This is so wrong...."


While perhaps there are few occasions on the battlefield where an Imperial officer would shoot at his own men ... due to them being dead anyways ... its not normally the case.

I've always agreed on the rule that you can't shoot into a melee that has your own people involved in it. While not always realistic, it maintains one game mechanic that I agree with. That being: it keeps players from shooting at their own men. Because frankly, if you could ... fools would be doing it all day.

The occasional unrealistic "we would've shot the battlecannon at them to rid ourselves at the enemy since our men were going to die anyways...." situation is better than a universe where everyone is constantly treating their own troops as if their were miniatures, mere points on a sheet a paper, and casually firing into them at all sorts of inappropriate moments.

Concerning Terminator Armor:

"Who are those guys over there?"
"Those are Terminators. They're Marines that wear tactical dreadnought armor."
"Oh...that's cool. What's that big robot looking thing over there?"
"That's a Dreadnought."
"Huh? Wait a minute ... it looks different than what the Terminators are wearing."
"No, no, no....its not wearing 'tactical dreadnought armor', its just 'called' a Dreadnought."
"....ooooookay...."

Modern_Angel
15-02-2008, 02:06
1) Smoke rules that make things harder to damage as opposed to harder to hit.
2) Power weapons cutting through stuff like mega armour like a hot knife through butter, but do absolutely nothing against vehicles.
3) Chaos Marines (unconverted models) having a uniform look and appearance....
4) 4 gunners in a Leman Russ but they can't shoot at different targets, not even the two on opposite sides of the vehicle who can't see what the other sees...
5) Space Marines, the 8-9ft tall super human genetically engineered elite soldiers being the same height as Cadian Guardsmen... (model wise)
6) Units shooting through a 30 strong ork mob to target a unit behind them, with no ill effect to said 30 strong ork mob...

Admiral Koppenflak
15-02-2008, 02:07
The occasional unrealistic "we would've shot the battlecannon at them to rid ourselves at the enemy since our men were going to die anyways...." situation is better than a universe where everyone is constantly treating their own troops as if their were miniatures, mere points on a sheet a paper, and casually firing into them at all sorts of inappropriate moments.

Well, of course I cant speak for everyone, but playing as Guard... This comes up more often than you might think :p

Onlyhestands
15-02-2008, 02:11
It occurs to me that Imperial Guard Conscripts are a bit redundant... I mean, according to the fluff, pretty much all Infantrymen are conscripted and given an uplifting primer.

It depends. Some regiments are conscripted while other are formed by volenteers. Besides the Imperial Guard are (usualy, but not always) taken from the elite of the Pdf, so although they may have been conscripted orgignaly there is a substancial between them (rock hard, fanaticle, well trained, ect...) vs a bunch of Joe Smiths taken from some planet and given lasguns(if they're lucky and dont end up with clubs or something).

Warp Zero
15-02-2008, 02:17
Well, of course I cant speak for everyone, but playing as Guard... This comes up more often than you might think :p

Lol! :D

I'm sure it does! I mean, even Orks would probably fire into other Orks, just for fun. Or Tyranids would biovore bomb a group of Marines tied up fighting mere ripper swarms.

But in the end, I agree with the rule because it keeps a guy from firing his Devastator squad at the one Marine Veteran Sgt. fighting a Lictor. There's got to be something there that keeps the whole game from being just about cheap numbers.

Imperialis_Dominatus
15-02-2008, 02:20
It occurs to me that Imperial Guard Conscripts are a bit redundant... I mean, according to the fluff, pretty much all Infantrymen are conscripted and given an uplifting primer.

D'oh! onlyhestands beat me to it. Suffice to say, not all regiments are like that- in general, the Guard is truly an incredibly well-trained force.


1) Smoke rules that make things harder to damage as opposed to harder to hit.

Ditto for cover.

Admiral Koppenflak
15-02-2008, 02:24
Lol! :D

I'm sure it does! I mean, even Orks would probably fire into other Orks, just for fun. Or Tyranids would biovore bomb a group of Marines tied up fighting mere ripper swarms.

But in the end, I agree with the rule because it keeps a guy from firing his Devastator squad at the one Marine Veteran Sgt. fighting a Lictor. There's got to be something there that keeps the whole game from being just about cheap numbers.

But 'Cheap Numbers' is all we poor Guard have! :cries::D

I move for a special rule in the new codex... :evilgrin:

Captain Micha
15-02-2008, 02:37
Guard should get ATSKNF to compensate for the lack of shooting into your own ranks.

Warp Zero
15-02-2008, 02:40
But 'Cheap Numbers' is all we poor Guard have! :cries::D

I move for a special rule in the new codex... :evilgrin:

The Lord General thinks of them as cheap numbers perhaps. Some big wig administratum guy...yeah...sure.

But brothers you fight in the trenches with, eat bad rations with, stand watch through the night with, go into town looking for the red light district with.....

....those guys aren't cheap numbers. They're your brothers.


It depends. Some regiments are conscripted while other are formed by volenteers. Besides the Imperial Guard are (usualy, but not always) taken from the elite of the Pdf, so although they may have been conscripted orgignaly there is a substancial between them (rock hard, fanaticle, well trained, ect...) vs a bunch of Joe Smiths taken from some planet and given lasguns(if they're lucky and dont end up with clubs or something).


"The one with the rifle shoots! The one without, follows him! When the one with the rifle gets killed, the one who is following picks up the rifle and shoots!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhebpnpBFg8&feature=related

:D

Admiral Koppenflak
15-02-2008, 02:44
The Lord General thinks of them as cheap numbers perhaps. Some big wig administratum guy...yeah...sure.

But brothers you fight in the trenches with, eat bad rations with, stand watch through the night with, go into town looking for the red light district with.....

....those guys aren't cheap numbers. They're your brothers.

This is true. But my aforementioned example of Khorne Berserkers was probably more serious than was written; surely a battlecannon round is far more merciful than having them ripped apart painfully by Disciples of the Blood God! :eek:

In any event... I Don't want to threadjack. It's just been a curious issue sometimes when a hell of lot more hinges on being able to shoot that squad of Honour Guard who are busy ripping up your platoon and there's a line of Leman Russ tanks behind them...

gaoCU
15-02-2008, 02:48
Has anyone noticed something odd about the Chaos Spawn entry in the new chaos codex?

It says that they are beast types, meaning they can fleet and charge 12". Then it says it's slow and purposeful.

So it's fleet of foot, yet slow and purposeful...

Theola
15-02-2008, 02:50
When I was first learning the names of all the guns, I couldn't help but think they just sounded silly. "Well there's the Bolter and Bolt Pistol and Storm Bolter and Heavy Bolter and Bolt-Bolt Bolter..." A little redundant and confusing at first, if you ask me.

kikkoman
15-02-2008, 04:46
"dying race, hyper advanced, precious few lives"
and guardians...

well, I wish it was 3rd ed, so I can say "8pt 'dying race' space elves! 9pt 'endless horde' space orks!!!"


though there are three other very fine, very fluffy, expensive elite skillfun hyper tech speedy troop choices available for CWE now.

Devil-Tears
15-02-2008, 06:12
"dying race, hyper advanced, precious few lives"
and guardians...

well, I wish it was 3rd ed, so I can say "8pt 'dying race' space elves! 9pt 'endless horde' space orks!!!"


though there are three other very fine, very fluffy, expensive elite skillfun hyper tech speedy troop choices available for CWE now.

Agreed! Also, as someone else said in another thread, a dying race shouldn't be wearing paper thin armour. They have WRAITHBONE! Substance stronger than adamantium! Yet said precious lives are running around wearing flak jackets and carrying guns that have less range than lasguns, the weapon of the army of unlimited man power!

Warp Zero
15-02-2008, 06:19
Not really an oxymoron or a redundancy, but its something that does make me go "huh? what?"

Most numerous part of Chaos, the most appearances in BL novels, the Lost and the Damned.... can't play 'em at a GW Tourny. Now, since going to GTs isn't a big part of my gaming, it doesn't hurt me in any way. But, still kinda odd.

Thank goodness I play locally with cool people who are okay with allowing a LatD list. Also, the Siege of Vraks is out, can always use that too. But the cool parts of LatD are the bits that make it feel different than just "chaos" Imperial Guard. Mutants, Spawns, Zombies, etc...

Would love to see GW tackle a project that would be the relaunch of LatD. Along with new models of course! Hey who knows...maybe its on their "to do" list and I'm not even aware of it. I'm crossing my fingers. ;)

The Old Scholar
15-02-2008, 07:18
Concerning Terminator Armor:

"Who are those guys over there?"
"Those are Terminators. They're Marines that wear tactical dreadnought armor."
"Oh...that's cool. What's that big robot looking thing over there?"
"That's a Dreadnought."
"Huh? Wait a minute ... it looks different than what the Terminators are wearing."
"No, no, no....its not wearing 'tactical dreadnought armor', its just 'called' a Dreadnought."
"....ooooookay...."

Sorry, this is a bit off topic, but I've wondered: the Venerable Dreadnought has a little crusader helm, right? Is that supposed to be the same size as a regular Marine. In other words, is that a guy whose just a head and torso with giant robot arms and legs attached? I mean he is a warrior whose been blasted to pieces and is entombed in the armor, correct?
Cool looking either way.

Imperialis_Dominatus
15-02-2008, 21:42
Guard should get ATSKNF to compensate for the lack of shooting into your own ranks.

Oh, you.


Has anyone noticed something odd about the Chaos Spawn entry in the new chaos codex?

That they are useless? ;)


well, I wish it was 3rd ed, so I can say "8pt 'dying race' space elves! 9pt 'endless horde' space orks!!!"

No, you couldn't. Forum rules. :p

Captain Micha
15-02-2008, 21:44
he did not specifically say Eldar so technically that follows the rules :p

hehe what's wrong with that idea? It'd be great! get this thing that is technically better than fearless hehe.

Draconian77
15-02-2008, 21:56
All the CC weapons in the entire 40k universe.

I mean they could just tactically laser strike the planet but its much more fun telling the 10,000+ men armed with flashlights and pocket knives to go down there and kick ass!

Although for a game mechanic its sort of vital.

Captain Micha
15-02-2008, 21:58
thing is, there might be targets that are inaccessible by laser strikes, or orbital bombardments of any sort so you have to send in your troops. Often times most likely that leads to very close in fighting so I could see why they train for CC.

Draconian77
15-02-2008, 22:10
I don't agree.

I think you could shoot someone at any range(easier with pistols mind). Bayonets attached to guns allows for some last ditch stabbing but there really isn't a lot of training involved to use one.




Originally Posted by kikkoman
"dying race, hyper advanced, precious few lives"
and guardians...

well, I wish it was 3rd ed, so I can say "8pt 'dying race' space elves! 9pt 'endless horde' space orks!!!"

I add the 10pt Hormagaunt to this. Who could field a CC horde with a 10pt no ld, no sv, no T troop? Grrr.

Mitheral
15-02-2008, 22:40
All the CC weapons in the entire 40k universe.

I mean they could just tactically laser strike the planet but its much more fun telling the 10,000+ men armed with flashlights and pocket knives to go down there and kick ass!

Although for a game mechanic its sort of vital.

Starship troopers (the book not that horrid movie) went into this with some depth. Sometimes you don't want to nuke the planet from orbit instead electing to take out every left handed red head on the planet. Both tools are useful.

The US army has both Warthogs and MOABs but still needs boots on the ground in Iraq. Of course they aren't stabbing anyone so their's still a bit of WTF with the emphasis on CC in 40K.

Stingray_tm
15-02-2008, 22:53
Lictors are vanguard organisms, that scout ahead of the swarm, outside synapse range in order to reconnoiter. Thus they are subject to instinctive behaviour, when being outside synapse range.
Er... whisky tango foxtrot?!?

Biovores, that operate exactly like artillery, do not count as artillery, while Zoanthropes, that don't have any similiarity with any kind of artillery, count as "living artillery". Huh?

srgt. gak
15-02-2008, 23:00
That hellguns arent much better than lasguns. i mean come on, its supposed to be a lasgun on crack but still sucks?

or the fact that the razorbacks come with an outboard ammo container but cant hold more than 6 marines

or the fact that the landraider can hold 15 people but you cant field a 15 man squad or put two squads into one.

guardsmen can carry bolters, the guns the supposly were built for only sms and will break a normal mans bones?

sms cant carry aotucannons

MacDeath
15-02-2008, 23:08
Starship troopers (the book not that horrid movie) went into this with some depth. Sometimes you don't want to nuke the planet from orbit instead electing to take out every left handed red head on the planet. Both tools are useful.



While I like both the Starship Troopers book and the movie - (IG v. Tyranids, right?) the movie has absolutely nothing to do with the original book whatsoever besides the title and a couple of characters names. I read the book after seeing the movie and I was like, "WTF...?"

No matter how much technology and weapons advance, you cannot take and hold ground without grunts. Soooo... ditto above.

Anywho...

Taking an Armor (not Armour, dammit! :)) Save after receiving a wound seems backwards to me.

"I'm hurt... no, wait... no I'm not."

blackroyal
15-02-2008, 23:09
or the fact that the landraider can hold 15 people but you cant field a 15 man squad or put two squads into one.


To be fair, it is the crusaider varient that can hold 15. Crusaders were "developed" by an army that CAN have 15 man squads.

You can't put 2 squads into one because space marines have yet to learn how to "play nice" with others.

Angelus Mortis
15-02-2008, 23:52
Found another redundancy while going through IA:Apocalypse. Spined Chaos beast. SV 6+ normal and 5+ Invulnerable. Huh? What?

linvus232
15-02-2008, 23:56
That most guys can move to the maximum range of their standard-issue weapons in the time that it would take them to aim and fire four shots/salvos, or that an energy field (or whatever, Invulnerable save) provides no protection against attacks that would not otherwise have penetrated whatever armour someone happens to be wearing with it.

Defcon
16-02-2008, 00:47
Found another redundancy while going through IA:Apocalypse. Spined Chaos beast. SV 6+ normal and 5+ Invulnerable. Huh? What?

Having any save is a method to show how much 'tougher' it is than a regular Spawn or what-have-you. Dark Eldar can have a 5 or 6+ save and a 2+ invulnerable, so why not?

Angelus Mortis
16-02-2008, 01:49
Having any save is a method to show how much 'tougher' it is than a regular Spawn or what-have-you. Dark Eldar can have a 5 or 6+ save and a 2+ invulnerable, so why not?

Difference is, once the DE fail an invulnerable they dont have it anymore. With the Chaos Beast, whatever can get thru his invunerable can get thru his regular. Hence, why even put it in there?

Draconian77
16-02-2008, 06:04
I may be wrong about this but maybe Daemon Hunters or Which Hunters have an item that ignores invulranible saves but does not have an Ap value? I have not actually read those codicies but by all accounts they have strange wargear sections.

Never read the Starship trooper books(The first movie was ok, the second was very lame) and I understand that you need foot sloggers to capture territory. What I am trying to stress is that they kill with shooting, be it sniping or short range fire. Hth combat is seen as too risky and as a last resort.

RusVal
16-02-2008, 07:46
I may be wrong about this but maybe Daemon Hunters or Which Hunters have an item that ignores invulranible saves but does not have an Ap value? I have not actually read those codicies but by all accounts they have strange wargear sections.

Psycannon bolts can ignore invulnerable saves, but do have an AP value.


Never read the Starship trooper books(The first movie was ok, the second was very lame) and I understand that you need foot sloggers to capture territory. What I am trying to stress is that they kill with shooting, be it sniping or short range fire. Hth combat is seen as too risky and as a last resort.

Actually, the movie has a rather convincing scene in it about the subject:


Grunt- Why the heck are we using knives when we can just push a button?!... sir?

Zim- Soldier, put your hand on that wall.

Grunt- Sir?

Zim- I said put your hand on that wall.

(Grunt hesitently lifts hand onto wall. Zim grabs a knife, throws it, and pins the grunt's hand to the wall)

Zim- An enemy can't push a button if you take out his hand.


AKA- The most high-tech gun don't do much good if someone's bashing in your head with a rock.

Kerrahn
16-02-2008, 07:48
Difference is, once the DE fail an invulnerable they dont have it anymore. With the Chaos Beast, whatever can get thru his invunerable can get thru his regular. Hence, why even put it in there?

Daemonhunter Psycannons, flamer weapons (I can't remember the names) and Psycannon Bolts all ignore Invulnerable saves (and Witch Hunter Inquisitors can take Psycannon Bolts too).

Kaniki
16-02-2008, 08:35
To Draconian77 They are that way as they are designed to take out demons who most usually do not have armour also i think they have AP??/ I Think???

Kaniki Out

Ronin_eX
16-02-2008, 08:46
Orks have been bred for war and slaughter yet it seems the basic workings of a firearm are rather foreign to them (I like their 2nd edition version quite a bit more).

The Eldar's weapon of choice is shorter ranged and less effective in almost every aspect when compared to the shotgun and the shoota (again, I like the 2nd edition version much more).

The best way to play a Nid swarm is to take as few models as possible.

The best way to play mobile shock troops like Space Marines is to take as many tiny squads as you can and try not to move them at all. Oh and don't take transports or fast moving vehicles because those aren't too good.

Corollary to one of the points above: Infantry units tend to be more durable than vehicles. Characters are tougher than a tank and monstrous creatures even more so. MC>IC>Inf>Vehicles really logical and intuitive progression if you ask me. :D

Orcboy_Phil
16-02-2008, 09:20
Never read the Starship trooper books(The first movie was ok, the second was very lame) and I understand that you need foot sloggers to capture territory. What I am trying to stress is that they kill with shooting, be it sniping or short range fire. Hth combat is seen as too risky and as a last resort.

Its still necessary however, the British special forces engaged in HtH combat during the battle of Tora Bora for example. Also its quieter to slit somebodys throat than go in all guns blazing.

blargh
16-02-2008, 11:08
Psycannon bolts can ignore invulnerable saves, but do have an AP value.



Actually, the movie has a rather convincing scene in it about the subject:


Grunt- Why the heck are we using knives when we can just push a button?!... sir?

Zim- Soldier, put your hand on that wall.

Grunt- Sir?

Zim- I said put your hand on that wall.

(Grunt hesitently lifts hand onto wall. Zim grabs a knife, throws it, and pins the grunt's hand to the wall)

Zim- An enemy can't push a button if you take out his hand.


AKA- The most high-tech gun don't do much good if someone's bashing in your head with a rock.

But the problem with the movie is that there's nothing in between the orbital laser strike and a grunt with a gun. They have no squad support weapons, no vehicles, no air support, no artillery, nothing at all. The IG would have been a lot more effective force to deploy than the infantry units in Starship Troopers.

lanrak
16-02-2008, 11:11
Hi all.
I can understand why the original poster asked for examples of :wtf: things in the 40k game system.Open a page of the rule book/codex with rules on ...Oh there is another one,:evilgrin:.

So rather than shoot fish in a barrel.Why not try to find a needle in a haystack?Try to find something that makes sense, without resorting to stating the obvious in the 40k rule set?(Eg defining units/weapons is not included in this, eg pistols are 'pistol type weapons' and tanks are ' tank type vehicles' very sensible /logical but obvious...)

Can you find ANYTHING that is efficient /elegant in the 40k rules set?

TTFN
lanrak.

Orcboy_Phil
16-02-2008, 11:22
But the problem with the movie is that there's nothing in between the orbital laser strike and a grunt with a gun. They have no squad support weapons, no vehicles, no air support, no artillery, nothing at all. The IG would have been a lot more effective force to deploy than the infantry units in Starship Troopers.

I assume you've either not seen the movie or are willfully ignoring the scene when the Klendahu are attacked with a Napalm strike from an *AIR* unit.

Angelus Mortis
16-02-2008, 11:31
Daemonhunter Psycannons, flamer weapons (I can't remember the names) and Psycannon Bolts all ignore Invulnerable saves (and Witch Hunter Inquisitors can take Psycannon Bolts too).

Just for the record, I am very familiar with DH as I have a 6k force of them and have been playing them since day 1. As I stated in my post and several others have stated, everything in the DH codex that bypasses invulnerables also has either an AP of 4 or 5. So, as I stated earlier, whats the point of a 6+/5+ save?

I see a few more good ones there. Keep them coming.

Some of you guys are starting to drift off topic. We're not talking about Starship troopers or whether you can just anihlate planets from oribt or whats efficient in WH40k. Its about redundancies and oxymorons for a good laugh. Thats it. Anything else you want to jabber about, well, start your own thread. Thanks in advance. ;)

Warp Zero
16-02-2008, 11:48
Orks have been bred for war and slaughter yet it seems the basic workings of a firearm are rather foreign to them (I like their 2nd edition version quite a bit more).

BS 2 doesn't mean you're a caveman with a firearm. BS3 means you're well trained. Not some commando, but pretty well trained. I would think then, BS2 is probably equal to a civilian who goes to the gun range maybe 5-8 times a year. He's decent, can hit most stuff, expecially if its not moving, but he's not a career soldier.



The Eldar's weapon of choice is shorter ranged and less effective in almost every aspect when compared to the shotgun and the shoota (again, I like the 2nd edition version much more).

Shotgun better than a Shuriken Catapult?!? Huh? :confused:


The best way to play a Nid swarm is to take as few models as possible.

Pshaw! A Tyranid player in my club takes a TON of bugs in his list and he rarely loses. Actually, I can't even remember the last time he's lost at all. Been long time.




I think you could shoot someone at any range(easier with pistols mind). Bayonets attached to guns allows for some last ditch stabbing but there really isn't a lot of training involved to use one.

Even though the 4th edition book says its mostly about guys fighting hand to hand. If I recall correctly, 3rd edition explained it better. Its a mix of some of that desperate hand to hand stuff but also point blank shooting and CQB (Close Quarters Battle) action. I've said it many times on this board, but I think I'm a minority here. To me, the Assault phase is everything including, hand to hand combat, point blank shooting, and some other CQB style action. I don't imagine a Guardsman, just beating someone with his rifle butt. I think he is shooting at another Ork in the face from a few inches away.

Okay, I know what you're gonna say...then why can't I use my weapon STR instead of my own STR? Well, this is where game mechanics and simplicity take over to make the game run faster. I personally visualize it in various ways. Sort of my "fill in the blank" way of rationalizing it.

I just assume that in the Ork vs. Guard fight (mentioned above), the Ork had grabbed the lasgun to point it away as he raised his cleaver. Then the Guardsman had to use his strength to jerk the lasgun out of the Ork's grip and shoot him in the face with it.

Or maybe the Guardsman wanted to let off a burst into the gut of an Ork in his trench. He has to use his strength to jostle pass other bodies to get into a good firing position. So on and so on.

To me, with Howling Banshees ... they fight like Morpheus in "Matrix Reloaded" (he had a pistol in one hand and samurai sword in the other) or maybe other HK style gun and sword scenes. Maybe a bit of "Equilibrium" thrown in there. Heh heh. Then Guardsman fight in Assault like the ending to "Saving Private Ryan". Sometimes shooting point blank, sometimes taking a bayonet out, sometimes throwing a helmet at the other guy's head. :D Tyranid fight like....well, bugs in "Starship Troopers" and "Aliens".

But whatever the style...it boils down to Str and Ws for simplicity sake. I don't mind that. However, by no means do I imagine guys taking their fingers off the trigger and using their rifles like baseball bats all of sudden....and its ONLY that. I imagine it to be a combo of the whole spectrum of CQB. If you learn to think of Assaults like this, its easier to imagine. But if you keep thinking that Assaults are only your hands, feet, swords, and axes...then yeah...its gonna come off silly.

The Guy
16-02-2008, 12:06
A grot, small, weak, bullied, downtrodden,depressed, inexperienced,dirty little creature is better at shooting a gun then a warboss.
:wtf:

Bran Dawri
16-02-2008, 12:15
Tau Ion Cannon. It fires highspeed superheated ionised particles.

Guess what? That means it's a plasma weapon. So why does it have nothing whatsoever in common with other plasma weaponry?

W0lf
16-02-2008, 12:17
dont know if anyones posted this but:

'My lascanon is shooting at your marine squad behind that hedge,
It hits them... It goes through ones armour... oh no.. it actually hit the bush..

wtf?

Klomster
16-02-2008, 14:34
Small cover saves (5+ 6+) to me often represent that you have difficulty spotting the target.

As ork body armour is as efficient as high grass according to a list of example of cover saves.


And i did see a faq or something that had a gw emplyee explain why the armour save is taken last instead of second or something.

It was the same reason as it was called a save!

You get to try to save your beloved fighter, even if the chances are often slim.

Pete278
16-02-2008, 15:15
Tau Ion Cannon. It fires highspeed superheated ionised particles.

Guess what? That means it's a plasma weapon. So why does it have nothing whatsoever in common with other plasma weaponry?
To be fair, the Tau Plasma Rifle has nothing in common with the other plasma weapons either, other than the name.

Draconian77
16-02-2008, 16:26
"Okay, I know what you're gonna say...then why can't I use my weapon STR instead of my own STR? Well, this is where game mechanics and simplicity take over to make the game run faster. I personally visualize it in various ways. Sort of my "fill in the blank" way of rationalizing it."

Actually I was not going to say that at all.
I only play Tyranids and in a lot of cases using my gun Str would decrease my combat effectiveness.

The main pt of my op was that this is a game and there are bound to be a few pointless/needless/downright confusing things due to the scale of the hobby and that we should just sort of ignore them in favour to playing the game that we love(Necromunda right?)

Onlyhestands
16-02-2008, 16:30
Lots of models have the same strength as their weapon. A guardsmen has the same strength as a lasgun or laspistol, or autogun, or autopistol, so its not that big of an asumption that they use it in close combat. Not only this but a spacemarine and his bolter are the same strenth. I think the generalization in close combat is just fine, If I want to shoot in close combat I would play necromunda(which I do).

Orcboy_Phil
16-02-2008, 22:03
To be fair, the Tau Plasma Rifle has nothing in common with the other plasma weapons either, other than the name.

Except AP2 and the basic look ;)

Pete278
17-02-2008, 00:34
Except AP2 and the basic look ;)
The Ion Cannon is ap 2 as well, though, isn't it?

Playa
17-02-2008, 00:35
Hey,


something odd about the Chaos Spawn entry

Yeah, a 'slow' Fast Unit is an oxymoron.
Kinda like our beloved 'fleet' Heavy Unit -

Non-move-and-shoot Ordnance - with Fleet.

A slow Fast Unit and a Fleet Heavy Unit.
If only they somehow balanced out . . .


Playa

Orcboy_Phil
17-02-2008, 02:41
The Ion Cannon is ap 2 as well, though, isn't it?

Nope ap3 Str7 antimarine and light vehicle gun of death.

Vishok
17-02-2008, 03:49
A lot of this stuff is simply "more so" compared to "normal" members of whatever you're talking about.

Feral Orks = More feral than the 'udder boyz.

Veteran Space Marines = More Veteran than the other space marines.

Venerable Dreadnoughts = older still than the other dreadnoughts.

Doesn't really seem oxymoronic at all really.