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Swope
14-02-2008, 23:30
In the back of my dark angels book there are two space marine legions that are removed from the list

Who are they

I know there were some unknown legions. Never did find out who they were??

Cursed Foundings Maybe?

Col. Dash
14-02-2008, 23:32
Still unknown as of yet although one of the Horus Heresy books had a brief glimpse of mention of one of them. Its doubtful they will ever be revealed.

Kandarin
14-02-2008, 23:47
They are never named. It's a deliberate plothole.

Imperialis_Dominatus
14-02-2008, 23:48
Yay for search function!

Imperialis_Dominatus
15-02-2008, 01:27
As much as everyone hates them, I've seen one of the Lost Legions well-rationalized as the dreaded 'femme Marines.' As for the other, I can't think of any of the other good theories I've seen off the top of my head.

Baltar
15-02-2008, 01:36
I hate this topic slightly more than "OMGZORZ TEH SIGMAR IS TEH PRIMARKZZ!!" and slightly less than, "OMGZORZ TEH TYRANIDZ WERE BUILT BY TEH OLD ONEZ!!11!!"

Kandarin
15-02-2008, 01:55
Allow me to expand on my earlier point.

It's a deliberate plothole in that they aren't defined, no canonical information is given, and nothing is excluded either. They are whatever you want them to be. Your Marine army could be, or be descended from, a lost legion. Your army might have encountered the lost legion(s) at some point in its history. Your Inquisitor might stumble upon the secrets of their origins and/or demise. Your fan fiction might involve the lost legions in some way. GW and its subsidiaries will never say you're right or wrong.

They are undefined. They are not meant to be explained, so that you can come up with your own explanation and your own story. And that's the way it's going to stay.

The_Patriot
15-02-2008, 02:06
One of the two missing legions will be revealed in a future Horus Heresy novel.

CELS
15-02-2008, 02:11
A couple of years ago, I would never have believed that, Patriot. Now? I wouldn't be surprised if a future Horus Heresy novel revealed that the Emperor was an Old One.

The_Patriot
15-02-2008, 02:21
A couple of years ago, I would never have believed that, Patriot. Now? I wouldn't be surprised if a future Horus Heresy novel revealed that the Emperor was an Old One.

I wouldn't go that far, but I think it was Dave Abnett that said he was going to write about one of the two missing legions.

Swope
15-02-2008, 02:42
I thought one of the Cursed Foundings chapters were suppose to be one of the of the missing chapters..

Fire hawks would be my guess
rumor has it that they are the legend of the damned now which im going to convert an 1337 looking army around them after i make my

Cypher dark angels army
fallen but not chaos fallen :D more like they are lookin for cypher beucase they believe him to be The Lion or some other very important dark angel

I always thought that cypher was The Lion or maybe an apparation of him lost soul.

Grimbad
15-02-2008, 02:58
The cursed founding chapters are that: chapters. Not legions.

oblique
15-02-2008, 04:25
Still unknown as of yet although one of the Horus Heresy books had a brief glimpse of mention of one of them. Its doubtful they will ever be revealed.

Do you remember which HH book this was in? I haven't read them all yet and am wondering if I missed this or I just haven't read the book it's in yet.

The_Patriot
15-02-2008, 04:29
Do you remember which HH book this was in? I haven't read them all yet and am wondering if I missed this or I just haven't read the book it's in yet.

I believe it's in Dark Gods.

Jellicoe
15-02-2008, 07:42
Fire Hawks are not the missing Legion - they are a missing chapter now identified as the legion of the damned. Made very clear as long ago as White DWarf 99 (or thereabouts)

Spartan
15-02-2008, 08:14
There was talk that one of them was the Grey Knights but think thats just some peoples thoughts.

The_Patriot
15-02-2008, 08:25
There was talk that one of them was the Grey Knights but think thats just some peoples thoughts.

Grey Knights are rumored to be the remains of the loyalists from the Traitor Legions.

pookie
15-02-2008, 08:28
Yay for search function!

theres a search function.....;) to the OP please read the FAQ for the Boards.


As much as everyone hates them, I've seen one of the Lost Legions well-rationalized as the dreaded 'femme Marines.' As for the other, I can't think of any of the other good theories I've seen off the top of my head.

please dont start that again...;)


One of the two missing legions will be revealed in a future Horus Heresy novel.


I wouldn't go that far, but I think it was Dave Abnett that said he was going to write about one of the two missing legions.

all answer both qoutes hear: allegedly there will be more light shed on one/both of them in the HH books, whats deff known about Dan Abnett is that he will be revealing 5/6 big secrets in the Legion book but im not sure he has said it will be about a missing legion (s).



There was talk that one of them was the Grey Knights but think thats just some peoples thoughts.

deff not, they were around the 2nd founding ( or around the creation of Chapters from Legions, IMO the GK would be the top/most ideal 1000 Psykers from all the Loyalist Legions), although there isnt anything specific that confirms this. they are designated 666 but this is more of a 'ocult' referrance, rather than the number given to a created chapter ( ie they were not created 666th)

Imperialis_Dominatus
15-02-2008, 20:49
I hate this topic slightly more than "OMGZORZ TEH SIGMAR IS TEH PRIMARKZZ!!" and slightly less than, "OMGZORZ TEH TYRANIDZ WERE BUILT BY TEH OLD ONEZ!!11!!"

Hey, I like the Sigmar Primarch theory. When he disappeared? He got a ride around the Galaxy swingin' his hammers alongside his bros. Maybe his 'disappearance' was the Emperor sending him on a secret mission to guide the fate of the Warhammer Fantasy world (as he is considered a god there IIRC) because it will prove important to the galaxy's fate someday, and the Emperor had it wiped from the records to protect the secrecy. That's just a theory on the fly though.

By the way, I hate the new fluff that Horus had some dream and saw that one of the test tubes was dead or whatever. It ruins the elemental mystery behind the Lost Legions. Speaking of which:


I wouldn't go that far, but I think it was Dave Abnett that said he was going to write about one of the two missing legions.

I honestly hope this is just smoke being blown. Like I said, I want to reserve the right to spout my ridiculous conspiracy theories, not see it all wasted away.


I thought one of the Cursed Foundings chapters were suppose to be one of the of the missing chapters..

No, because:


The cursed founding chapters are that: chapters. Not legions.

Aye, tis truth, Grimbad.


please dont start that again...;)

:evilgrin:

jedideinos
15-02-2008, 20:57
Grey Knights are rumored to be the remains of the loyalists from the Traitor Legions.

I've heard that rumour too. SPOILER WARNING - although I guess anyone interested will have read Flight of the Eisenstein by now.


There's a line in Flight of the Eisenstein that suggests that the Grey Knights were formed from the loyalist elements of renegade legions like the Death Guard.

Baltar
15-02-2008, 20:59
Personally, I prefer to think of the Grey Knights as coming directly from the Emperor's genes.

LittleLeadMen
15-02-2008, 21:02
That's incorrect. The suggestion is that the remaining loyal Death Guard will be the foundation for the Inquisition, not the Grey knights.

Cirrus the Blue
15-02-2008, 21:04
Rainbow Warriors!

I find it amusing how these aren't exactly the most colourful Chapter. haha A Chapter I thought was amazing for scheme though were the Mantis Warriors. :D Terriffic colour of greenish-teal and great insignia! Apparently they're renegade I think I read a LOOOONG time ago. Don't quote me on that, though. ;)

- Cirrus

Baltar
15-02-2008, 21:08
Someone at my gaming group was trying to convince me that Nathaniel Garro was going to go on to found the Ordo Xenos and I was like "What?"

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
15-02-2008, 21:26
Someone at my gaming group was trying to convince me that Nathaniel Garro was going to go on to found the Ordo Xenos and I was like "What?"

Read "The Flight of the Eisenstein" and change that "What?" to and "Okay!"

Imperialis_Dominatus
15-02-2008, 21:30
Personally, I prefer to think of the Grey Knights as coming directly from the Emperor's genes.

Me too.


That's incorrect. The suggestion is that the remaining loyal Death Guard will be the foundation for the Inquisition, not the Grey knights.

Yeah, we've kind of covered that. But Black Library fluff can be rejected- all of it's canon but none of it's necessarily true. :D

t-tauri
15-02-2008, 21:33
I've removed some pointless spam and added spoiler tags to a couple of posts. Please use [spoiler and [/spoiler (with the brackets closed) around points from novels and the like which people may not have read.

LittleLeadMen
15-02-2008, 21:37
um, these books have been in print for SOME time now. Either get with the program and read them, or not, but it seems odd to worry about "spoling" it for some people.

That's akin to saying this is a spoiler.......... Darth Vader is Luke's Father.

These books have been in print for more than long enough to justify freely discussing them without nanny controls.

Imperialis_Dominatus
15-02-2008, 21:54
um, these books have been in print for SOME time now. Either get with the program and read them, or not, but it seems odd to worry about "spoling" it for some people.

I disagree. You can have a fine discussion while using tags, and it's not that much work to put tags around a post. And I'm fairly certain it's part of the forum's policy or rules or something to use tags in this case. Some people may not have read the books, but that doesn't mean that they should have the story ruined for them just because some random guy on the Internet didn't spend about two seconds to take precautions against that happening.


That's akin to saying this is a spoiler.......... Darth Vader is Luke's Father.

What? Thanks for ruining it! :cries::p

Col. Dash
15-02-2008, 22:08
Mantis warriors were renegade, but they went on a 100 year penatence crusade and have been forgiven.

Archaon
16-02-2008, 00:59
a) Grey Knights were founded during the second Founding as the 666th Chapter and i think the only that didn't have an original Legion where they came from. The were the only chapter devised from scratch since all the others were split off from their parent legion.

The origin of their geneseed is also a mystery (though many favor the Emperor as the direct donator).

b) My favorite theory (very far fetched) is that the Emperor knew that all this was to happen (really.. someone of such a vast intellect and power not being able to see the Heresy coming?) and decided that at some point humanity would need a top fighting force that wasn't held back by the superstitious Empire.

If you have read the books so far.. imagine 2 Legions still following Imperial Truth and maybe having access to an STC.
They have "true" engineers and scientists (not those mystical Mechanicus folk) and they have improved themselves over 10.000 years.

Somewhere in the galaxy tens of thousands of "super" Space Marines are waiting.. each of their armor the equivalent of Terminator armor resilience, their standard weapon having the power of a Plasmagun and their bodies several times better than those of standard Space Marines.
They move about on antigrav propelled transports akin to flying Land Raiders and have access to many other things 10.000 years of steady engineering would yield.

Yeah i know.. fanboi's wet dream and all that :p:D But i always wondered what 10.000 years of "normal" scientific development would bring instead of the gothic middle ages the Imperium is stuck in.

Aeolian
16-02-2008, 01:09
a) Grey Knights were founded during the second Founding as the 666th Chapter and i think the only that didn't have an original Legion where they came from. The were the only chapter devised from scratch since all the others were split off from their parent legion.

The origin of their geneseed is also a mystery (though many favor the Emperor as the direct donator).

b) My favorite theory (very far fetched) is that the Emperor knew that all this was to happen (really.. someone of such a vast intellect and power not being able to see the Heresy coming?) and decided that at some point humanity would need a top fighting force that wasn't held back by the superstitious Empire.

If you have read the books so far.. imagine 2 Legions still following Imperial Truth and maybe having access to an STC.
They have "true" engineers and scientists (not those mystical Mechanicus folk) and they have improved themselves over 10.000 years.

Somewhere in the galaxy tens of thousands of "super" Space Marines are waiting.. each of their armor the equivalent of Terminator armor resilience, their standard weapon having the power of a Plasmagun and their bodies several times better than those of standard Space Marines.
They move about on antigrav propelled transports akin to flying Land Raiders and have access to many other things 10.000 years of steady engineering would yield.

Yeah i know.. fanboi's wet dream and all that :p:D But i always wondered what 10.000 years of "normal" scientific development would bring instead of the gothic middle ages the Imperium is stuck in.

That already exists in some of the the worlds unconquered by the Imperium. There's bound to be intact STC civilisations out there. :cool:

Deus Mechanicus
16-02-2008, 02:29
So when's Legion released so we can take part of these juicy secrets

Commander Dante
16-02-2008, 04:28
in america sometime in march so in UK april

Imperialis_Dominatus
16-02-2008, 07:14
really.. someone of such a vast intellect and power not being able to see the Heresy coming?

He didn't see the Heresy because his future-sight was unusually clouded, IIRC.


in america sometime in march so in UK april

That's the Daemons Codex. Legion Codices are not that close by a long shot.

Daemonslave
16-02-2008, 12:11
http://forum.blpublishing.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=177&PN=1 :)

Hector
16-02-2008, 13:04
Well, until i'm told otherwise, and I really hope I never am, I'm currently running the fluff that my marines are the Legion XI. Yes I know that's a little arrogant perhaps but then why can't i be, its my imagination after all. I even account to why we were scrubbed out! but then that is the whole point of those two ommisions, technically two seperate players could have both a loyalist and a traitor Legion claim that they were the scrubbed out from the records and still be right.

So to answer the question, if I may be so audacious, the Steel Custodians of Taurentia are one of them.

Deus Mechanicus
16-02-2008, 13:09
Well, until i'm told otherwise, and I really hope I never am, I'm currently running the fluff that my marines are the Legion XI.

You know what i think that's a great idea. The supposodly (atleast one of them) reason for the legions to be blank in the first place was for players to make up their own connection to it but everytime someone does it people scream UNFLUFFY!.

Kudos on this idea Hector, Kudos. Stick with it

Col. Dash
16-02-2008, 13:21
No! My Angels Redundant marines are Legion XI. Go find your own legion hehehe. This is probably why they left it open ended. While I hate to say it, so we could use our imaginations and do what we want with it. I hope they do not reveal a missing legion in a future book.

Hector
16-02-2008, 13:32
Thank you Deus mechanicus, and we'll share Colonel Dash. I must admit though I am worried, what with the deletion of the armouries from the codex, I wonder if GW is intending to release the Legions' II and XI names to spoil what'sleft of our imagination.

And with my rant over...

I think its brilliant that they have left this bit for us to work with, mix it with the Traits sectoin and you can make your very own Legion.

As Neil Buccanan says, give it a try.

battle captain corpus
16-02-2008, 14:23
GW will never reveal the missing Legions..period. Its almost aubsurd that people may still think that they will, even Abnett wouldnt want to tackle that subject! Yes they crop up for nano second in False Gods but thats it. Even going back to RT days GW didnt even go there. Its part of the mystery, why is everyone out to solve it? Is nothing sacred?
Anyway, Rubicon and the Iron Hearts...lets see who remembers that one...

Commander Dante
16-02-2008, 14:47
Woops i got it backwards, Legion comes out in march in the UK and April the rest of the world....

Hector
16-02-2008, 15:33
What, without revealing too much did it actuallly say in that book, if I'm not mistaken it was quite ambiquious anyway, so maybe the Primarchs still built the two legions. I must admit though I like the femme marines idea. Just daft enough to be genius.

BrainFireBob
16-02-2008, 23:13
They're a tribute, originally, to the two lost Roman legions- they've been left blank as an opportunity for players to create their own Primarchs. Generally, after 20 or so years, this is seen as a bit immature (well, *my* chapter master is a lost Primarch and totally, like, pwns you cuz he roxxors!), but there are some well-done spins. My own DIY Marines are Filii Calthum, and I'm sure that's also been done to death, but I like it. *shrug*

Eisen
16-02-2008, 23:26
Grr... there weren't two missing legions. When Varus got slaughtered in the Teutoburger Forest, there were four aquilae that got lost, and the Romans recycled legionary names and numbers on a regular basis until well into the Empire, because until well into the Empire, there was no standing army!

Besides, the eagles were recovered under Claudius - so there were no "missing" legions.

BrainFireBob
16-02-2008, 23:34
You forgot what happened to Crassus.

But yes, I don't need to be told. GW does.

Eisen
17-02-2008, 01:26
You're right, sorry. Keep forgetting that the GW idea of research involves Terminators leaping around in slow motion to death metal, roaring "THIS IS MACRAGGE!" Clearly a Greco-Roman themed chapter, those Ultramarines...

Don't get me wrong, I love the setting as a whole, but details like "it's a tribute to two missing legions!" just make me want to shake someone until their head falls off. See also "Gladiator." Strangely, I had fewer problems with "The 300," as it sort-of makes sense seen in the light of the culture that gave us the Odyssey, because that's sure as hell not photorealistic.

Now - the missing two legions. One way of looking at it is that the Primarchs were an experiment. For an experiment to be 90% successful is a rare thing indeed, and if two of them fell by the wayside, fine. Eventually, the geneseed stock could have run out, without a convenient template for it. The "horrible fate" alluded to in whichever of the Heresy books it was could be just that; the two primarchs could have been unstable strains. Certainly there were enough borderline cases (Sanguinius, Magnus) that two utter, abysmal failures isn't unreasonable.

BrainFireBob
17-02-2008, 03:42
Fall of the Roman Empire- Gladiator ripped it off shamelessly, but without Alec Guinness

Lt.Bradford
17-02-2008, 03:49
Grr... there weren't two missing legions. When Varus got slaughtered in the Teutoburger Forest, there were four aquilae that got lost, and the Romans recycled legionary names and numbers on a regular basis until well into the Empire, because until well into the Empire, there was no standing army!

Besides, the eagles were recovered under Claudius - so there were no "missing" legions.

Actually, you are incorrect in several spots.

Three Aquilae were lost in Teutoberg under Varus, but two were recoverd during Augustus Germanicus's expeditions.

The Romans didn't recycle names and numbers either, though some Legions bore the same, as many were disbanded, destroyed, et cetera.

Lastly, there was no standing army until the reforms of Gaius Marius around 107 B.C.E., he introduced the standing army, and that was in the middle of the Republic.

Eisen
17-02-2008, 05:04
Actually, you are incorrect in several spots.

Three Aquilae were lost in Teutoberg under Varus, but two were recoverd during Augustus Germanicus's expeditions.

The Romans didn't recycle names and numbers either, though some Legions bore the same, as many were disbanded, destroyed, et cetera.

Lastly, there was no standing army until the reforms of Gaius Marius around 107 B.C.E., he introduced the standing army, and that was in the middle of the Republic.

We can debate Roman history until the cows come home without touching the point of this thread, but the Marian reforms did not establish a standing army - else why was Marius tied up in debate for years over finding land for such a high percentage of his veterans? The legions were stood up and stood down at need; the fact that "at need" changed based on the advancing frontier of the Empire didn't change the ad-hoc nature of the Roman army. Caesar even faced a mutiny from the Tenth during the Civil War, because they had been on campaign for a good decade and thought their discharges and settlements were due. The transformation from Republic to Empire occurred simultaneously with the transformation of the Roman military from as-needed to full-time. Second point - wouldn't the reuse of names and numbers be recycling? Heck, for that matter, we only have accurate names and numbers for post-Caesarian legions. Before that, they were on an as-needed basis.

I will, however, concede the point about the missing eagles.

Dominus_Serui
17-02-2008, 11:40
Tis obvious that if we do ever see the lost legions they're going to appear in some great-big sweeping advance from the unknown regions of space, as part of a World Wide Campaign.

Hector
17-02-2008, 11:58
They're a tribute, originally, to the two lost Roman legions- they've been left blank as an opportunity for players to create their own Primarchs. Generally, after 20 or so years, this is seen as a bit immature (well, *my* chapter master is a lost Primarch and totally, like, pwns you cuz he roxxors!), but there are some well-done spins. My own DIY Marines are Filii Calthum, and I'm sure that's also been done to death, but I like it. *shrug*

I take a deal of offense from that statement, I don't see why anyone has to say their Chapter master is their Primarch just because they assume the number of one of the scrubbed legions, and that is also important the list is not info unknown, ie the experiment went wrong, it specifically says data was deleted. I certainly don't assume my Chapter master is the Primarch, that would just be bizzare, especially if he died in combat. I also think you can still have fun, a bit of an imagination and be past 20, I know I am.

Phunting
17-02-2008, 16:34
um, these books have been in print for SOME time now. Either get with the program and read them, or not, but it seems odd to worry about "spoling" it for some people.

That's akin to saying this is a spoiler.......... Darth Vader is Luke's Father.

These books have been in print for more than long enough to justify freely discussing them without nanny controls.What utter rubbish. Flight of the Eisenstein was published in 2007. Even in Warhammer terms, that's hardly 'SOME time.' And even if it is, so what? What does that even mean? Is it fair game to spoil everything that was published before last year then because anyone who's not read it isn't 'with the program?' The book I'm reading at the moment was published in 1796, should I have the end spoilt for me because it's been out for 'some time' and therefore I should have read it by now?

battle captain corpus
17-02-2008, 16:37
Personally I find it a little sad that people claim to have the missing Primarchs as founders or are them. Whats the point? Its like these people who invent a chapter and sayt "oh they was lost in the warp during the heresy and they are the original space marines blahblahal;bhahahahahahaha...."
Its such an outdated idea and there are so many more viable ones out there! Maybe its just people lack the imagination sometimes or dont read their fluff...shrug

Hector
17-02-2008, 16:48
Sorry why do you have to have less imagination to claim that you are descended from one of the two missing Primarchs? Surely it requires more imagination than just saying, I'm X chapter that I read about in a book. Sure if you say, I'm the II Legion so there, well anyone can say that, but to build a back story, build up the character of a whole sub-sector, system, planet, even just the characteristics of the race(s) that the Chapter recruits from, all this before you've even mentined Primarchs, that takes quite a bit of imagination, and anyway who are any of us to say "that's really sad"? I find it a lot sad that people are so obnoxious towards their fellow players.

So once again I write, in an attempt to try and steer us back onto the original course of this thread, my marines (along with many other imaginative players) are descednded from the XI Legion.

dark blade
17-02-2008, 16:55
A couple of years ago, I would never have believed that, Patriot. Now? I wouldn't be surprised if a future Horus Heresy novel revealed that the Emperor was an Old One.

i always kinda assumed that he actually was an old one.:angel::rolleyes:

totgeboren
17-02-2008, 17:18
That's the Daemons Codex. Legion Codices are not that close by a long shot.

I dunno if this is needed, but I just wanted to point out that he was referring the novel Legion, not any Legion codex. And the novel Legion is coming out in a few months.

Mechanicus
17-02-2008, 18:12
Next month, actually. And pre-orders are apparently going to be shipped tomorrow. I'm impatiently awaiting my copy... *eye twitches*

Deus Mechanicus
17-02-2008, 18:37
Next month, actually. And pre-orders are apparently going to be shipped tomorrow. I'm impatiently awaiting my copy... *eye twitches*

Make sure to spoil all the juicy secrets ASAP

Mechanicus
17-02-2008, 19:06
Assuming someone else doesn't first - gladly... :)

BrainFireBob
18-02-2008, 00:29
Hector-

Lay down the defensiveness. You misread my point because you felt criticized. I mentioned the perception- that it's generally something "noobs," in particular teens, do. When it was introduced, it was fine. After twenty years with a thriving hobby community- it can be done, there's nothing wrong with it, but it's such an easy thing to come up with and so loaded with trying to "win" that it's like McKiernan's Iron Tower (?) series, a more blatant rip-off of the LOTR never to be found. The man tried to publish a sequel to LOTR, and when denied by the Tolkien estate, wrote his own "version" of the LOTR.

Imperialis_Dominatus
18-02-2008, 01:39
I dunno if this is needed, but I just wanted to point out that he was referring the novel Legion, not any Legion codex. And the novel Legion is coming out in a few months.

Oh. *facepalm* I fail.

I don't keep up on BL releases... not interested, I guess.

Hector
18-02-2008, 11:37
Hector-

Lay down the defensiveness. You misread my point because you felt criticized. I mentioned the perception- that it's generally something "noobs," in particular teens, do.

yeah I see your point, but at the same time I would like to get hold of these kids and actively try to push them to come up with a back story. GW has already taken away the armouries to the codexs that allowed customisation of individual armies, the idea that we as players would join them in saying, "nah come up with a successor or else" doesn't sit nice. at the end of the day, noobs need to be "nurtured" into experienced players and shown that a back story is good for business. I intermigle mine with my game play, that is my tactics are affected directly by how I immagine they would fight. I think it ads a different dimension to the game. I understnad how easy it is to say, yeah its mine, but I refer to my earlier post. If your'e willing to put in the time an effort to create a brand new area of space then that's not that easy.

Anyways, as I see it we could discuss this till the cows come home and still both be right.

Hector

Immortal Avatar
02-05-2010, 02:01
I always assumed that the two were left open for people to write their own stories baced off of fictional Primarchs, one for Chaos and one for the Impirium.

leadlair
02-05-2010, 02:30
Holy threadomancy!!!!!!!!!