PDA

View Full Version : chariot in diff terrain



xragg
16-02-2008, 02:21
I know chariots take d6 S6 hits moving through diff terrain. What if a chariot starts in difficult terrain and chooses not to move? Will it still take hits even though its not moving?

The reason I am asking is in regards to the skaven warp cannon, which uses chariot movement rules. One game I began in it in the center of a woods so no one could see it without entering the woods. I had forgot it is treated like a chariot for moving, but I usually never move it until it is fleeing from the enemy anyway. I really liked hiding it in the woods, but I dont want to cheat anyone. So,
1) do i take hits for setting it up in the woods
2) do i take hits for leaving it stationary in the woods
I didnt find any of the rules saying I would take hits, unless I moved it.

Gorbad Ironclaw
16-02-2008, 03:18
You don't take any hits for standing still. However, remember that you need to turn it to point in the direction you are shooting... :p

xragg
16-02-2008, 11:33
You don't take any hits for standing still. However, remember that you need to turn it to point in the direction you are shooting... :p

Right, but war machines can pivot to face any direction. A war machine may not fire if it or its crew has moved. Is a pivot a move (causing d6 S6 hits) that still allows shooting, or is a pivot just a turn. I think it comes down to how you read the first paragraph on pg85 under shooting. I can see it both ways.

Atrahasis
16-02-2008, 11:43
Pivoting to face the direction of the shot is certainly movement - if it were not then it would not need to be an exception to the rule that war machines cannot move and shoot.

xragg
16-02-2008, 11:55
Thanks, that was my gut feeling. So much for blindly shooting lightning bolts from the woods. My skaven and wood elves need to get along with each other, and then maybe my skaven could learn how to be tricky in the woods.

Milgram
16-02-2008, 16:32
uhm... do a chariot need to pivot to shoot? or does it see 360 when it comes to shooting as most single model shooters do (and fast cavallry)? at least a character riding on a chariot should have 360 radius, right?

Festus
16-02-2008, 16:42
No, not right: A chariot has 90 LoS, just like everybody else, bar skirmishers and fast cav in the shooting phase.

Festus

theunwantedbeing
16-02-2008, 16:48
Only us1 models and fast cav get a 360 line of sight.
Well that and the grey seer when on a screaming bell....maybe a couple of other times.

Normally chariots get a 90 degree arc of sight like everyone else, character's riding on chariots get this same 90 degree arc of sight, just like with any other normal mount.
A character mounted in a fast cav chariot doesnt get a 360 degree line of sight either, as per the rules for fast cavalry.

The warplightning cannon must pivot to face its target, and in doing so counts as moving and will take damage if within difficult terrain. So there is very little point putting your warplightning cannon within a wood as it's going to be taking damage every turn unless you fire straight forwards from it on every shot(ie. you dont move or pivot).

Harsh but them's the rules, and we must abide by them.
You do get to fire through terrain and not need line of sight and shoot through your own men, so it's not exactly unfair really.

Caboose123
16-02-2008, 19:29
I would say pivoting doesnt count as moving...

You can pivot and shoot, so pivoting doesnt count as movement... That would be were my argument comes from anyway...

Tarax
16-02-2008, 19:43
Pivoting is moving. What the rules for war machines say is that they can pivot AND shoot, as opposed to not being abvle to shoot when they have moved.
Another difference is that the pivot of a war machine happens in the shooting phase, not in the movement phase.
As a Warp Lightning Cannon counts as both a war machine and a chariot, it's hard to say which rule is used when.

Festus
16-02-2008, 19:54
Only skirmishers and fast cav (in the shooting phase only) get a 360 line of sight.

Fixed your post.

And a character in a fast cav chariot is fast cav himself, so gains all the fast cav rules.
Not that I know about such a thing in WHFB. Only the chariot *units* of the TK have fast cav as a rule IIRC.

Festus

DeathlessDraich
16-02-2008, 19:59
I would say pivoting doesnt count as moving...



Pivoting is moving.

LOL! Another question I asked ages ago.

1) The are 6 explained forms of movement in Warhammer - straight forward, wheel, turn, reform, change formation, fly. Redress ranks, magical movement and skirmisher movement could also be added but ... that's beside the point.

2) Real life movement which does not count as movement in Warhammer include - picking up a Standard, drawing a bow, swinging a weapon etc.

A Warhammer movement that does not count towards the movement allowance i.e. a *free* move is still movement [or is it?] - some players strangely dispute this.

3) Pivoting is not explained/defined as a type of movement in the Movement chapter but is *implied* to be movement in the Warmachines chapter.

The fleeing unit's pivot is 'free', the warmachine's pivot is 'free', the chariot's pivot is free.
They have to be movement nevertheless since the Fast Cavalry 'free reform' and 'free alignment' are also considered to be Warhammer movement.

lparigi34
16-02-2008, 20:43
To add to DD reasoning:

Isn't pivoting akin to a "turn" of each single model of a unit, just that it is a "free" one because the guy is on its own?

And if you cannot turn and use MoF weapons, then... blah blah blah...

Tarax
16-02-2008, 21:09
The fleeing unit's pivot is 'free', the warmachine's pivot is 'free', the chariot's pivot is free.
They have to be movement nevertheless since the Fast Cavalry 'free reform' and 'free alignment' are also considered to be Warhammer movement.


To add to DD reasoning:

Isn't pivoting akin to a "turn" of each single model of a unit, just that it is a "free" one because the guy is on its own?

Well, that's just what I meant. A unit (ie a single model) which pivots in the movement phase is moving, comparable with a turn.

Thanks, Iparigi34.

lparigi34
16-02-2008, 23:44
Well, that's just what I meant. A unit (ie a single model) which pivots in the movement phase is moving, comparable with a turn.

Thanks, Iparigi34.

And as you also rightfully added, warmachines turn in the shooting phase, this makes it part of its shooting process and not strictly a movement done in a previous phase.

Creepy Basement Studios
17-02-2008, 01:19
Hmmm... iwould question two things:

Is it moving if its done in the shooting phase?
If it's moving why is the word "freely" in the rules for pivoting?

I would say it is not movement.

Also, characters i nFast Cav units don't benefit from the FC LOS rules. I am unaware how a TK character could take advantage of those rules, but there you go.

Festus
17-02-2008, 08:06
Hi

Turning in the shooting phase is Movement, even if it does not happen in the movement phase.
See BRB, p.10, exceptions

And yes, characters in a fast cav unit benefit from the units movement rules but not the shooting rules - if they are not fast cavalry themselves. IIRC, a TK character on a chariot is not fast cav, but may join a unit of them, namely TK chariots, which are fast cav. So he benefits from the movement, but not the shooting rules.

Festus

Creepy Basement Studios
18-02-2008, 03:12
The exceptions paragraph doesn't have much, if any, bearing on this discussion... and I still haven't gotten a definition of "freely" if it still counts as moving.

Festus
18-02-2008, 05:08
Hi

How about a dictionary? *Free* = *without cost*.
You do not have to expend Movement to pivot on the spot, ie. to turn around. Normally units must pay for that in M.

Monsters and WarMachines and Chariots do not need to pay any M cost for it ... what is so hard to understand?

Festus

Tarax
22-02-2008, 14:43
The pivoting of a war machine in the shooting phase is based on the practicability of pointing the war machine to the target.

You could get into the same discussion about handguns or crossbows not firing straight forward. ;)

I just remembered that I had it used against me. My opponent would not let me fire my cannon because I pivoted it to point towards his Cold One Knights.
I did not argue because he was (indeed WAS :) ) a nice bloke at the time. I never let him do so again.