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gantrakk
16-02-2008, 03:37
A funny question that occurred to me earlier today.

Has/Would/Could a fallen Librarian (or whatever other title is given to a space marine psyker in some chapters) be interred into a Dreadnought and if he was would he still have psyker abilities?

God-Splitter
16-02-2008, 03:47
Won't critically wounded Librarians be used to feed the Golden Throne?

Commander Dante
16-02-2008, 04:30
I would imagine a Libraian being interred in a drednought, but i doubt they would ve strong enought to use theier powers

Khaine's Messenger
16-02-2008, 06:10
I would think he would still have his abilities, but any psychic powers that required physical actions or gestures would be hampered, and anything that required concentration on a particular rote mnemonic, as well as things which focus on the psyker and radiate outwards, would all be rather hampered by his shiny new body and all the required interfaces.

But I think you would have to be careful about this sort of thing, since dreadnoughts spend a lot of their time "sleeping" and some can tend to be a little on the grumpy side when woken up. Leaving what is effectively a portal to the warp just lying around and allowing it to "dream" would probably not be very good for the chapter. Depends on how much they value their librarians.

I'd say that interring librarians would not be common practice, and the only thing preventing it normally is a decent supply of new candidates from the line squads and internal command structure as opposed to the chapter Librarium. Just me.

Imperialis_Dominatus
16-02-2008, 07:36
I think the fellow who runs messages for Khaine has the answer here. Plus I think we've had this topic before.


Won't critically wounded Librarians be used to feed the Golden Throne?

Never heard of such a thing.

Baaltharus
16-02-2008, 09:25
I'd agree with Khaines, messenger. While probably not strictly forbidden, placing a psyker into a valuable Dreadnought shell might be considered somewhat of a liability.

Wraith
16-02-2008, 10:07
I certainly think they can and do get placed in a dreadnought body it's just they aren't represented in the table top game (same with chaplain dreadnoughts).

heretics bane
16-02-2008, 13:53
Grey knights anyone? i know its rare but they still do it and they still can use nemisis weapons, they could attach a rune staf or something to the dready so the could still use his powers?

battle captain corpus
16-02-2008, 14:14
There is no real fluff reason why not, its just not used in the game at the moment. Certainly chaplains, techmarines and Libbies would be interred as they are mighty warriors.
Also, it would entirely depend on his injuries. If most of him was reduced to a crispy wafer then it maybe a case of just his basic training and muscle memory left to use. Thus being able to shoot bolts of lightning maybe a stretch!
Modelling wise though a dreadnought close combat weapon can be anything, so a force weapon based one is by no means a bad idea.
In fact the more I think about it the more a Libby Dread sounds better and better!

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
16-02-2008, 14:38
Grey knights anyone? i know its rare but they still do it and they still can use nemisis weapons, they could attach a rune staf or something to the dready so the could still use his powers?

Wow, that is a great point. Although your average Grey Knight only has latent psychic abilities, they don't put the average ones in Dreadnoughts! Man, Games Workshop, change the codex to allow me to make a Librarian Dreadnought, post haste!!

NashTrickster
16-02-2008, 14:50
Think Ravenor!

He's just a crispy husk sealed in a life-support sarcophagus (except that instead of being a Dreadnought, it's some kind of anti-grav chair...) and that actually made him somewhat stronger as a psycker.

Burnthem
16-02-2008, 15:06
I think that Psychic powers are much like the Force in Star Wars, you dont have to make a physical movement/gesture for it to work, it just helps focus the mind and makes the power easier to apply.

Personally i dont see anything wrong with a Librarian Dreadnought, a very cool idea IMO. Maybe used as an HQ choice or limited to Grey Knights, but defintely something to think about. Some very good conversion opportunites i imagine as well.

heretics bane
16-02-2008, 15:23
Wow, that is a great point. Although your average Grey Knight only has latent psychic abilities, they don't put the average ones in Dreadnoughts! Man, Games Workshop, change the codex to allow me to make a Librarian Dreadnought, post haste!!

Latent? bit of an under statement you know with them being referred to as exceptionaly powerful pyskers(you'd have to be to banish some of the mage deamons that they eat for breakfast)

As for Ravenor i would say that he is a pysker dreadnought mix, he can project his "voice" while still using his chair!? and still blow stuff up and move stuff with it while being in that floating coffin.

As a sidenote think of a deamon weapon, its a warp entirite that isIncased/trapped in a metal shell but it can still use its powers at the behest of its wielder(some times not)

FrankManic
16-02-2008, 18:08
Go go gadget apocalypse scratchbuild.

Fab up a Codicier Dreadnought. Pwn stuff.

LordXaras
16-02-2008, 18:41
Latent? bit of an under statement you know with them being referred to as exceptionaly powerful pyskers(you'd have to be to banish some of the mage deamons that they eat for breakfast)What he was probably referring to is the fact that the rank-and-file Knights need to act together to manifest any particular psychic powers.

heretics bane
16-02-2008, 20:23
What he was probably referring to is the fact that the rank-and-file Knights need to act together to manifest any particular psychic powers.

:confused: I was under the impression that every GK is a very potent pysker in his own right?

Icarus
17-02-2008, 19:10
I had a similar idea regarding Thousand Sons dreadnoughts, thinking that they should be divided into Rubric Dreadnoughts (marines in Dreadnoughts when the Rubric of Ahriman was cast, and would therefore be ultra-hard), and Sorceror Dreadnoughts, who would forgo the inbuilt weapons and would instead unleash hell with the psychic energy!

Psyker dreadnoughts are quite frankly, nerdgasmic. Hopefully we might see this one day, if only as an Apocalypse-style unit.

PondaNagura
17-02-2008, 20:39
apocalypse..bah. this would have fit in a good 'ol fashion chapter approved article.

who says you couldnt model a dread psyker then just use it as a "counts as" veni dread. so the psykic weapons are just regular weapons. maybe use a defiler for chaos. the battle cannon just some crazy psychic blast weapon; though i suppose regular chaos dreads could work as well, just represent the "could-go-crazy" roll as perils of the warp inflicted upon the mind of sorceror within the dread.

Lord Cook
18-02-2008, 01:25
Ravener was a Delta level Psyker (moderately powerful) when he was whole, but after being crippled and left relying totally on his mind, he eventually became an Alpha plus Psyker (off the scale) in the same way that a blind man develops superior hearing.

So there's no reason why a crippling physical injury would reduce psychic strength.

Captain_Rory
18-02-2008, 05:33
Hmmm... You could use extensive use of the count as rule. Heavy flamer = pure warp energy. DCCW = Rune Weapon (Double stregnth...). Frag missile = partialy focussed warp blast. Krak missile = highly fouccused warp blast.

Khaine's Messenger
18-02-2008, 06:20
So there's no reason why a crippling physical injury would reduce psychic strength.

Ravenor's injuries were not as extensive as those suffered by those interred within Dreadnoughts ("mortal wounds" for a Space Marine are supposed to be pretty terrible), and Ravenor does not spend long periods of time locked in stasis and "sleeping" (although my experience with Ravenor is only from the Eisenhorn books, not Ravenor's own novels, so feel free to correct me). Nor do Space Marines have the benefit of being able to sanction and fund the tutelage of an Eldar Farseer by Inquisitorial Fiat.

Again, it's possible, it's cool, and there are ways to represent it, but I doubt you'll find terribly many unless you're in a chapter famed for its psykers. Say, the Blood Ravens. I could see that.

ChrisAsmadi
18-02-2008, 07:25
Ravenor's injuries were not as extensive as those suffered by those interred within Dreadnoughts ("mortal wounds" for a Space Marine are supposed to be pretty terrible), and Ravenor does not spend long periods of time locked in stasis and "sleeping" (although my experience with Ravenor is only from the Eisenhorn books, not Ravenor's own novels, so feel free to correct me). Nor do Space Marines have the benefit of being able to sanction and fund the tutelage of an Eldar Farseer by Inquisitorial Fiat.

Again, it's possible, it's cool, and there are ways to represent it, but I doubt you'll find terribly many unless you're in a chapter famed for its psykers. Say, the Blood Ravens. I could see that.

Actually, Ravenor was pretty much a chunk of scorched, battered, damaged flesh in a vague humanoid shape. His chair was pretty much a dreadnought that he controlled by way of his psychic powers.

Lord Cook
18-02-2008, 08:05
Ravenor's injuries were not as extensive as those suffered by those interred within Dreadnoughts

I would argue they were at least as extensive as the marines, if not more so. As ChrisAsmadi said, Ravener was reduced to a blackened husk, devoid of speech, hearing, touch, etc. They even had to cut a slit in his face so he could breath, because his mouth had been fused into his flesh by the heat.

The Judge
18-02-2008, 08:55
Ravenor's injuries were far worse than a Marine tends to get - he was hit by a Thunderbolt, y'know? He doesn't have any recognisable features, no limbs or eyes.

And while we're on Ravenor...


Ravener was a Delta level Psyker (moderately powerful) when he was whole, but after being crippled and left relying totally on his mind, he eventually became an Alpha plus Psyker (off the scale) in the same way that a blind man develops superior hearing.


The books state his powers only go up to mid-Gamma, nowhere near Alpha-plus at all! He is nearly destroyed by a low Beta in the first book, and only survives because he is a lot more disciplined. He also got a lot of extra power from the technologies built into the chair that boost his power - some maybe of xenos origin.

Overall, I'd say that a Librarian Dreadnought is a possibility, certainly just because it would be very cool indeed.

NashTrickster
18-02-2008, 11:50
The books state his powers only go up to mid-Gamma, nowhere near Alpha-plus at all!In fact, the books contradict themselves... In Ravenor he's said to be high-Delta to mid-Gamma level, but in Ravenor Rogue Orfeo Culzean says Ravenor is an "Alpha plus psyker" (but, of course, it could be a mistake made by Culzean, or the result of Ravenor's propaganda amongst his potential enemies).

=====

As far as Librarians interred in Dreadnoughts are concerned, I think that the effect on their psychic powers would greatly vary from case to case, some would never fully recover psychologically from their "ordeal" and this may impact their power level either positively (albeit it might not necessarilly be the case for their sanity) or negatively...

I'd tend to say that only the strongest willed should be able to use their powers while in a Dreadnought, most of those even gaining in psychic level because they'd become detached of physical inderances.

However, since Librarians are also the keepers of a chapter's annals and history, I can't picture a chapter letting them die if they have the possibility to save this invaluable knowledge. So, even if he doesn't recover his powers once interred, a Librarian in a Dreadnought would nevertheless be considered an "asset".

Of course, the sanity-loss issue would probably make most chapters think twice before attempting the transfer of a physically broken Librarian to a Dreadnought's sarcophagus. And, even without this consideration in mind, Dreadnoughts come in a very limited supply, and a sarcophagus will rarely be available when it would be necessary to save such a grieviously wounded hero of the Chapter... Thus, Librarian-Dreadnoughts would remain a rare sight, and such rare and precious assets would probably be rarely deployed, only in the direst of situations...

heretics bane
18-02-2008, 12:34
Just remembered would he Psi-titans, the admechs titans that have a alpha level plus pysker wired into them and fire massive psi-cannons?

As for Ravenor he is as stated just a melted husk of flesh with no mouth or any speech organs left.

Khaine's Messenger
18-02-2008, 17:31
I stand corrected, then. :D

Lord Cook
18-02-2008, 22:31
Ravenor's injuries were far worse than a Marine tends to get - he was hit by a Thunderbolt, y'know?

The books state his powers only go up to mid-Gamma, nowhere near Alpha-plus at all!

I was thinking of Culzean. Ravenor asks Culzean to drop his defences, and Culzean asks why he would want to do that when Ravenor is an Alpha Plus Psyker. I can't imagine Culzean making such a cheap mistake (he's far too professional for that), but he may have been exagerrating just to make a point. As NashTrickster said, the books contradict themselves.

And he was hit by a Lightning by the way, not a Thunderbolt ;).

Straha
18-02-2008, 22:36
An old White Dwarf featuring the Relictors showed the author (can't remember name and that issue is in storage) making a Dreadnought Librarian. I believe he was going to use it with some in house rules.

Since it was in White Dwarf, it opens the door.

I think some chapters would and some wouldn't, depending on their fluff. Librarian heavy chapters, such as the Blood Ravens, probably intern librarians, Regular chapters, such as Ultramarines, probably don't.