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505
02-10-2005, 03:47
It accured to me today (after re-reading back stories of chaos in white dwarf) How can all the chaos gods agree on a champion?

I mean archie is a level 2 wizard of tzeentch so wouldn't that automatically turn off korn from blessing him?

the other gods I could see as compromising with either of theses two. but getting tzeen and horn to agree is to confusing. I can even sea tzeentch agree on a champion just korn seems to stubborn to give into peer preasure.

does this strike any one else as odd

oh well.

devolutionary
02-10-2005, 03:51
My issue is with Khorne and Slaanesh agreeing on anything. Tzeentch and Khorne have nothing against each other as such, just radically different methodologies. However the friction between Slaanesh and Khorne is well documented. They despise each other passionately. How could those two in particular agree?

I blame Tzeentch. He's bad for your health, but really good for your wealth.

Trunks
02-10-2005, 03:53
Slaanesh and Khorne are less likely to agree with one another.

Tzeentch and Khorne have been partners in battle many times. Khorne does not hate wizards, this is such a big misconception. He feels that their power is not needed, and is less honorable than the way of the warrior.

starlight
02-10-2005, 04:06
It isn't so much as uniting Chaos as allying against a common foe. The Chaos Gods will grant benefits to whomever they feel has the greatest chance of advancing their particular agenda. Once Chaos is victorious over their common foe, they will eventually turn upon each other until only one remains to rule the ashes of the galaxy.

Tom - Heretic
02-10-2005, 07:21
You can't unite chaos, it's a contradiction in terms.

Or you can bribe them with sweeties.

Scythe
02-10-2005, 09:10
You can't unite chaos, it's a contradiction in terms.


Hah, my thoughts exactly.

I always found the idea of the "Chosen" or über-champion of Chaos rather silly anyway. Marked by all 4 gods? It's just silly. A Chaos army consisting of all 4 powers not turning upon themselves? I couldn't see that happening. Chaos would be way better of without all that "we're united now so noone can stand before us..... muahahaha" bulls*t. Keep Chaos centred around individuals and warbands, eventually gathering in small armies under powerfull champions, but fighting with each other as often (if not more often) as against the enemy. Still a potent tread, but not "the world is DOOMED!!!!" every hundred years or so again.

But that's just my opinion...;)

Neknoh
02-10-2005, 10:07
Well... they actually didn't unite into a single army untill at the gates of Middenheim, and that was only for a short moment, a few days or so, and even then, they did not mix with eachother, all of the five armies kept their own camps.

And as has been said, you cannot unit chaos fully, and that is why Chaos will never succeed in conquering the Warhammer World... that and there would be no more selling of the other armies and GW wouldn't make all too much money

Scythe
02-10-2005, 10:38
True, they will never conquer the world, but the invasions are always so out of proportions.

"Hah, we have such an huge army, this time we sure take over the world. Flee in terror, for the apocalypse is here!"

1 Month later:

"So, how did your invasion went, took over the world I assume?"

"Nah, we got creamed again. Seemed our army wasn't that invincible after all"

":wtf: but it was the apocalypse!!! Your gods were united, you had the everchosen champion, daemon armies and all other cool stuff!"

"Yeah, well, the champion got trashed and humiliated, and we found out that he was number 6 or so in the line, so I guess those everchosen aren't that everlasting as the name seems to imply"

"And your army?"

"Well, we slightly underestimated all those empire farmers. They all have guns and stuff!"

"But you outnumbered them 10 times over!"

"Yeah, Chaos Armour isn't what it was before. Turns out it's so heavy that all those peasants only had to push our Chaos Warriors with a sharp stick and they fell over, unable to stand up again. We had to use a dozen Chaos Warriors to overwelm a single militia fighter..."

"Damn, that sucks"

"Tell me about it. Oh well, our gods agreed to give it another shot in a hundred years or so. Rumours are already speculating who will be the next champion. I heard they might do a real-life tv show about it this time. Can't hardly wait!"

100 years later:

"Hah, we have such an huge army, this time we sure take over the world. Flee in terror, for the apocalypse is here!"

.....

Lord Lucifer
02-10-2005, 11:45
Scythe, the real reason the Chaos forces failed so miserably is because Chaos Warriors are incapable of hitting anything in front of them.
The new set allows them only to strike the figures to either side, which are usually other Chaos Warriors.


All the Empire troops had to do was stand in front of them and bash them with their cylindrical swords until they fell over.




Anyway, the greater powers of Chaos are in constant competition with each other. There will never be a lasting unity between them as it is completely against their nature.
'Undivided' is really 'undecided', and we've all seen how wonderfully things go for those unlucky enough to be marked by all four Chaos Gods, doomed to serial defeat at the hands of grossly underpowered opposition.
Abaddon gets stomped 13 times and is forced to repeat his humiliation over and over again because the big four are fighting over who gets to turn him into a spawn.
The first incursion of Chaos was beaten off by a nation of pacifists (with a little help from their dragons)
The latest incursion of Chaos was the single largest, most powerful Chaos army to ever walk the land. And they were beaten by the ragtag remnants of two imperial provinces, a handful of Elves, a few contingents of Dwarfs, a squadron of bretonnian teenagers in armour, and a pair of church bells from a cathedral in Kislev.


The only threat Chaos seems to present is poorly narrated build-up

Hywel
02-10-2005, 14:21
My theory on the chaos incursions is that its a bit like those Rest of World, All-Star or Pro-bowl squads that play for the odd charity event or sporting spectacle.

The Chaos gods get bored and sit in the pub thinking how cool it would be to see their various champions on the same side. Before you know it there are many hastily scribbled squad lists on the back of beermats and potential tactics being demonstrated with the vinegar bottle, salt cellar and empty glasses.

Then one of them remembers that they are in fact gods so they put the plan into action, pick a team captain that won't offend too many members of their all-star squad and send them down south for a laugh.

Nineswords
02-10-2005, 15:08
Hah, my thoughts exactly.

I always found the idea of the "Chosen" or über-champion of Chaos rather silly anyway. Marked by all 4 gods? It's just silly. A Chaos army consisting of all 4 powers not turning upon themselves? I couldn't see that happening.

Why not? Marking a Champion merely bestows a favour anyway and does not necessarily imply that they all 'agree' to a certain extent. If you read the story of Archaon, he had to face a trial - a test to prove that he was worthy in the eyes of that particular god, that to me does not say that the Chaos Gods agree on a Champion, that says the champion is worthy of the mark of their patron god.

As for the Chaos Army point - Conquer and assimilate. Archaons extended horde of the Swords of Chaos was created from simply offering a choice to Archaons enemies: Join him or die. Fear is what keeps the horde together as well as the common cause of laying waste to the Old World. Being united in a single cause does not mean that they would not turn on each other.

Archaons lietenants all represent a different power, so its safe to assume tribes and daemons offering a allegiance to one Chaos god would gravitate towards a particular lieutenant, whilst in a loose sense Archaon led the followers of Chaos in its purest state, rather than a particular diety.

In the case of a Tzeentch Champion being blessed by Khorne, the point has been made, but the obvious solution if it were the other way around would simply be that a Khorne Champion respected for their martial prowess would simply be a pawn in a convoluted plot by Tzeentch. That is why IMO Tzeentch is ultimately the most powerful god, simply because they use others to forward their own plans.

Just my two cents.

NS

Scythe
03-10-2005, 08:15
Why not? Marking a Champion merely bestows a favour anyway and does not necessarily imply that they all 'agree' to a certain extent. If you read the story of Archaon, he had to face a trial - a test to prove that he was worthy in the eyes of that particular god, that to me does not say that the Chaos Gods agree on a Champion, that says the champion is worthy of the mark of their patron god.

I've read that story, but I still think it's seer contradiction. The chaos gods seek powers who simply contradict each other in a champion. I'm not talking about Tzeentch/Khorne here, but about Khorne/Slaanesh (you could say quick kill versus tortured kill amongst others) and Nurgle/Tzeentch (decay, end of all, static world vs ever changing world). You can't combine such things in a single champion.


As for the Chaos Army point - Conquer and assimilate. Archaons extended horde of the Swords of Chaos was created from simply offering a choice to Archaons enemies: Join him or die. Fear is what keeps the horde together as well as the common cause of laying waste to the Old World. Being united in a single cause does not mean that they would not turn on each other.

That was maybe the case before the SoC, but not anymore. Archaon was humiliated, fled the battlefield, and his Swords of Chaos were reduced to a mere handfull of fighting men. There is no reason why the other Chaos champions shouldn't have killed him already, since he lost a huge amount of power.

Just my opinion of course...;)

Zanusiekk
03-10-2005, 11:50
I really don't see the problem... Of course one can embody aspects of all four gods. If you look at it, everyone does. You want new and cool gadgets, but you don't want to lose all your old favourites. You want to savour the moment, but you can't wait to reach the apex. Somewhere in between lies the path to a stable, powerful development.
The way I see it, balance is what makes chaos strong, not unity. Unity is only what it might look like to the uneducated and biased peasants of the Old World.

Scythe
03-10-2005, 12:42
The Chaos gods represent 4 extremes. They are not about balance at all, far from it. If you follow a Chaos god, you follow him into his personal extreme. By following another god as well, you stray away from extreme, so you could never gain the favour a completely dedicated person would have. Staying at the center between the 4 gods shouldn't get you favour from all of them, and certainly not in levels equal to a dedicated follower. Why would Chaos gods want someone who tries to achieve balance between them? Ultimately, it's each Chaos god for himself, and each one of them wants the most power.

metro_gnome
03-10-2005, 13:15
well i think it is part of the "each god is a part of Chaos" theory...
Now i believe periods like the endtimes represent a time of perfect balance in Chaos... picture the whole thing which is Chaos Undivided as a flat disk held up in the centre on a single stick... now when Chaos equalizes it begins its endtimes business... but as it starts to attack the followers of other gods and they defend themselves... they begin to give more power to one or other of the big 4... unbalancing Chaos itself... and while Khorne may be getting more power by fighting Ulric... the whole balance of Chaos is being thrown off... this is why... beyond all expectation... that Chaos always looses...

505
03-10-2005, 17:11
Khorne does not hate wizards, this is such a big misconception. He feels that their power is not needed, and is less honorable than the way of the warrior.


isn't that my point archie is a level 2 wizard so why would a god who thinks it is less honorable bestow his blessing on him as well.

it just seems funny to me however I understand how they need to somehow unite them all to invade and be the big bad bully up north

Dooppie
03-10-2005, 17:23
Archeon is blessed but he get not full support of the gods.
He is not Frenzy (Khorne), he is not level 4 Tzeentch wizzard, he cause no fear (Nurgle) and he is not sexy (Slaanesh)
All chaos gods have a plan: kill all humans, lizardmen and other not chaos scum and after defeating them they can always kill each other.

Scythe
04-10-2005, 07:37
Archeon is blessed but he get not full support of the gods.
He is not Frenzy (Khorne), he is not level 4 Tzeentch wizzard, he cause no fear (Nurgle) and he is not sexy (Slaanesh)

Alright, comparing game stats to fluff is always bad, but: Archaon causes terror (Nurgle), is immunne to psychology (Slaanesh), and has magical resistance (Khorne). Only thing not covered completely is Tzeentch.


All chaos gods have a plan: kill all humans, lizardmen and other not chaos scum and after defeating them they can always kill each other.

Concidering how utterly unimportant a single universe is for the Chaos gods, this is hardly true. One parallel universe more or less falling to Chaos doesn't really mather. Screwing up your rivals for power (eg the other Gods) does.