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Harbinger
16-02-2008, 18:04
What constitutes tech-heresy? I assume tampering with technology without the approval of the AdMech is the most basic form. But are there schools or discipline sof science/technology that they would regard as tech-heresy?

PondaNagura
16-02-2008, 18:08
xeno-tech is heresy. the generation/veneration of AIs has been deemed heresy for millenia following the Mon of Iron incident. then there's warp craft and its role in some technologies, such as warp transit...messing with the warding runes, or assisting daemons to obtain knowledges.

LordXaras
16-02-2008, 18:34
I would say breaking these mechanicus laws would contitue Technoheresy:

09. The alien mechanism is a perversion of the True Path. (Working with alien stuff is a no-no)
10. The soul is the conscience of sentience.
11. A soul can be bestowed only by the Omnissiah. (Use wetware when building complex stuff. It's good for you)
12. The Soulless sentience is the enemy of all. (dont build an AI. It makes for trouble)
13. The knowledge of the ancients stands beyond question. (Don't tinker with the machines! We don't know how they work, just that they do! Don't try to fix what isn't broken!)
14. The machine spirit guards the knowledge of the ancients. (Don't question the fact that there is a machine spirit.)
15. Flesh is fallible, but ritual honours the machine spirit. (Do what's good for the Machine)
16. To break with ritual is to break with faith. (Do as you're told.)

Lord Inquisitor
16-02-2008, 18:38
I always thought that the prohibition against messing with Xenos tech is a bit odd considering how often the AdMech do use or even hunt for alien archeotech. I guess this rule is to keep the younger tech-adepts in line (as with 14,15 and 16 I suppose) while the old and powerful magi can ignore it if they wish.

LordXaras
16-02-2008, 18:43
Most of the laws seem mutable if you get a go-ahead from someone above you.

The only time a Tech-Priest would be put on trial would be if he's taking something in his own hands. Independent thought is not a good thing.

Thus: An adept that is told to solve a particular problem and looks for a solution in Xenotech would be disassembled, while one that was told to examine Xenotech to solve a particular problem would be allowed to do so (at least until his superior was disassembled)

DapperAnarchist
16-02-2008, 22:32
Its like most things in the Imperium - the rules are the rules, until you know enough to know why they are the rules. Then they're guidelines.

50 posts! Go me!

LordXaras
16-02-2008, 22:38
A quite sound analysis, DA.

Commander Dante
17-02-2008, 04:12
I think the machine spirit just means harddrive....

Xandros
17-02-2008, 07:16
I think the machine spirit just means harddrive....

That's... heresy!

Khaine's Messenger
17-02-2008, 07:19
But are there schools or discipline sof science/technology that they would regard as tech-heresy?

There are certain applications of cyberware that are off-limits, but in order to actually implement these, you would probably have to be a member of the Adeptus Mechanicus and have gone through a fall to darkness just to start. Mainly because physically integrating man and machine in some of those ways requires Chaos magics and forgeworld-scale industrial fabrication power.

Also, research into warp power generators is supposedly forbidden, after an incident involving Ganymede. Although I don't have a specific source for that.

The creation of hexing spirits (probably computer viruses; mentioned in Dark Heresy) might also constitute technoheresy, considering the very function of such things would make them the daemons of AdMech cosmology.

Aeolian
17-02-2008, 09:10
A virus doesn't have a spirit.

Filling the same role =/= modern day equivalents. 40k Computers aren't, for example, silicon or binary code based, or at least the AdMech ones aren't. That's child's play for the techpriests.

LordXaras
17-02-2008, 11:01
I think the machine spirit just means harddrive....But rifles and factories and tanks alike have machine spirits.

Khaine's Messenger
18-02-2008, 04:20
Whoops! Major edit. 40k uses the word "dark" too much. Replace Dark Heresy with Dark Adeptus.


A virus doesn't have a spirit.

No, it is a spirit. Totally different basis from a modern day computer virus, but if you want to play fast and loose with terminology, that's basically what it is. The one showcased in the book was probably a "real" daemon (warp critter), though, when one considers the context of the story.

Apologist
18-02-2008, 09:33
I think there's a distinction to be made here between banned technology and tech-heresy, though there are plenty of crossovers:

Some examples of banned technology:
Daemonomancy
Cloning
Abominable Intelligence (A.I.)

These are certainly things that will have a magos labelled a heretic, but it's a bit like wandering into seminary with the Necronomicon tucked under your habit. Even hinting at researching these things will have you hounded out and burnt/executed by the Tech-Magi, regardless of where you are.

At the other end of the scale are differences in doctrinal details: the correct supplication to placate the machine spirit of a fusion reactor; the colour to wear on a particular feast day. These sort of things will vary from Forgeworld to Forgeworld, and probably from Techpriest cell to Techpriest cell.

In between are difference in major doctrines – is the Emperor the Omnissiah?, for example – larger religious questions that make quite large differences. In much the same way as you can wander from a Russian Orthodox church to a Roman Catholic church in New York, there will be different schools of thought within the Cult Mechanicus; the priests will disagree with each other, but they'll be united by common beliefs.

The Mechanicus is almost certainly more conservative (indeed, probably ultra-conservative) than our world, but the metaphor stands. I have no doubt that a respected Tech-Magos from one world with a particular interpretation of the nature of the Machine God would be shown public respect on another Forgeworld with a different doctrine – but woe betide him if he descends into the reactionary underhives and begins preaching.

***

Tech-heresy in simple terms is having an opinion contrary to the Cult Mechanicus' basic doctrines. These are handily laid out in the Mysteries, so we can easily see what constitutes the basic tenets of the Cult. Denying the existence of the Omnissiah is tech-heresy, for example. Pursuing banned technology is tech-heresy. These are 'full stop' matters for excommunication – or execution! – by the Magi Veneratus Extremus (the Mechanicus' internal inquisition).

However, Xeno-tech is part of the warnings (handily posted up by LordXaras – thanks!). This means that you can happily research it if given permission; as long as you don't try and use it. Most of the Cult Mechanicus regard xeno-tech as containing enslaved machine spirits (as opposed to the happy machine spirits that inhabit human technology), so freeing them is fine.

There's a fine line that will vary from place to place and time to time (much like our history, the Cult will probably be more or less conservative in some eras) that will make your innocent research into an eldar weapon slide into tech-heresy as political and religious tides shift.

***

It also should be borne in mind that the Cult Mechanicus is, by nature, extremely secretive and suspicious; jealously guarding its information from prying eyes. The comparison I make above to Christian churches is thus quite wide of the mark – a better comparison might be to Mithraism, or other ancient religions with a secretive and mystical air. The Cult will vary from extremely hostile to new ideas and investigation to ridiculously hostile to new ideas and investigation; and is more than capable of defending itself from outsiders, probably with terminal results!

It is also a Technology-based religion, which makes it very unlike any transcendental religions that we are probably most familiar with – it's closer in spirit to an extremely well-developed cargo cult than it is to any major religion.

***

Oh, and machine-spirits? There was a good discussion on these recently – do a quick search. In short, we came to the vague conclusion that the term covers an array of concepts –
1) literal 'spirits' as (for example) a Christian might imagine angels (and that may or may not exist);
2) complex machinery that exhibits a limited form of artificial intelligence, such as a titan's core (cunningly, Cult doublethink allows these to exist);
3) physical processes equivalent to the electrcity that runs through our computer circuitry (note that a great deal of Ad Mech materials are almost incomprehensibly more complex than ours);
4) conflations of the above groups.

Harbinger
18-02-2008, 18:01
Some examples of banned technology:
Daemonomancy
Cloning
Abominable Intelligence (A.I.)

These are certainly things that will have a magos labelled a heretic, but it's a bit like wandering into seminary with the Necronomicon tucked under your habit. Even hinting at researching these things will have you hounded out and burnt/executed by the Tech-Magi, regardless of where you are.



Is Daemonomancy as a banned technology/science simply sorcery combined wiht machines, or are the physcial sciences more invovled in the process?

NosMo
19-02-2008, 04:27
What constitutes tech-heresy? I assume tampering with technology without the approval of the AdMech is the most basic form. But are there schools or discipline sof science/technology that they would regard as tech-heresy?

Over clocking your PC. any hackers forum / school and the greats Tech-Heresy of all time Macgyver the true archfiend.

NosMo

Apologist
19-02-2008, 07:54
Is Daemonomancy as a banned technology/science simply sorcery combined wiht machines, or are the physcial sciences more invovled in the process?

The mechanicus is more concerned with knowledge than machinery per se. Machinery represents the physical embodiment of knowledge like a communion wafer and wine represents Jesus' body and blood in Catholicism.

The wafer and wine aren't worshipped themselves they represent the object of worship.

Similarly, machinery represents knowledge. The more complex, mysterious and ancient the machine, the closer it is to the source of all knowledge; the Machine God.

Daemonomancy is thus the study or knowledge of how to summon or consort with daemons (presumably there's no canon evidence either way as way as I'm aware, with the possible exception of the implications of Dark Adeptus).

Think of it this way: cloning is banned in the Imperium and Mechanicus, so whether you're producing soldiers in tubs, or simply searching for information, you'll get lynched if the Magi Veneratus get hold of you.

Similarly, whether you're dancing with daemons, summoning them into machinery, or just stumbled across an old book with info in; you're in trouble.

Ikkaan
19-02-2008, 08:21
Afriel Strain soldiers are supposed to be cloned, or ?

Apologist
19-02-2008, 09:44
Afriel Strain soldiers are supposed to be cloned, or ?

Hence the veil of secrecy, and tales of suspicion and bad luck surrounding them... (nothing to do with being based off Rogue Trooper, o' course ;))

On a serious note (well, as serious as I get when discussing a fictional universe); how can we have an in-universe explanation of cloning being banned and Afriel Strain soldiers being cloned?

Here are some thoughts:
1) Cloning is Tech-heresy. Inquisitors don't care, and set up a secret base with some Techpriests with radical ideas...

2) Cloning is Banned by the Ministorum. A certain sect of tech-priests couldn't give a fig about what the Minsitorum thinks, and goes ahead and clones an army.

3) The cloning occurs during a period in Imperial history when the High Lords/Fabricator General/Inquisitor is relaxed about the idea, and relatively progressive-looking.

4) The cloning is cunningly 'double-think'ed out of being a problem:
'By the Omnissiah, Magos Hans, you've cloned him!'
'No, no, no, Adept Borys – I've produced identical twins in an artificial womb.'
'But there are hundreds of them!'
'Well... not so much twins as chiliaguplets. Either way – not clones!' *plugs fingers in ears and chants 'lalalalalala'*

5) Owing to a misfile by the Adeptus Terra, a Forgeworld has been commanded to produce clones by direct order. The techmagi shrug, and call in the techpriests they've had sent to the lunatic asylum to oversee the project.
'Professor Frankenstein? We'd like to offer you a job.'
'...And you called me mad?! Mad!!' *cackle*

LordXaras
19-02-2008, 12:54
6) Cloning viable humans simply is beyond the Imperium's technical ability, or possibly it simply doesn't work. Servitors can be created from vat-grown bodies because any flaws can be fixed with bionics (and they don't need a working brain), and they don't need to last a lifetime.

DapperAnarchist
19-02-2008, 16:41
From the 3rd Ed rulebook, at the back "Daemonomancy - Those Dark Arts named Daemonomancy...", well it goes on to say its about raising, banishing and controling daemons. Great page of fluff...

Where does it say cloning is banned? I've heard this before, but have never personally seen any reference to it.

Messiah
07-11-2008, 13:40
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/dark-heresy/design-diary.shtml

Firaxin
08-11-2008, 01:16
6) Cloning viable humans simply is beyond the Imperium's technical ability, or possibly it simply doesn't work.
You must be one of those tau playing, Imperial haters who doesn't read the fluff then.

The Imperium can clone. Krieg uses clones.

Clockwork-Knight
08-11-2008, 03:09
And you must be one of those jumping to conclusions or one of those imperial playing, Tau haters who doesn't read the fluff either. No wait, that makes me sound like you ( and before you answer, I'm a Dark Eldar playing, Dark Eldar hater who doesn't like the lack of fluff).

You know what? Stop belittling other people and insinuating that because they play that army, they must automatically be ignorant regarding other things. In the worst case, a moderator will close the thread and issue warnings.

Also, regarding the Kriegs and usage of "clones", the only speculative hint about "clone troopers" comes from the "Vitae-Womb" birthing techniques on page 87 of the "Siege of Vraks"-Imperial Armour book, which can mean anything (like cloning, or invitro-fertilisation, impregnation of female servitors to tleilaxu golas) or nothing (just forceful raping of several hundred women in bleak condition).

Cloning does however exist. Fabius Bile almost succeded cloning Horus, before Abbadon and his gang destroyed the facility.

Kyrios
08-11-2008, 23:48
On the subject off Daemonomancy. Wouldn't techno-heresy imply that technology is associated in some way?
I would draw the conclusion that Daemonomancy would fall under some other branch of heresy until you try to merge it with machinery etc. The prime example beinge a soulgrinder. Then it would be Technoheresy.