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warhawk95
18-02-2008, 03:15
After playing Bretonnia for a couple of years i was thinking of starting another army and the undead seemed like a good choice. the TK have always seemed like a cool army to pick with their different playing style, but then i saw all the new threads about the new VC book.....

from what ive read it seems that new VC will be better than what TK are good at (magic), but that they will be able to also throw out a nice lord and some killer units with the new grave gaurd and blood knights. plus VC can raise a massive amount of zombies. so if i were to choose an undead army why should i pick TK when it seems that VC are just better at everything TK does best. or am i just missing something here?:confused:

Dendo Star
18-02-2008, 03:22
Tomb Kings have some of the best models around. Also, Ushapti (sp.?) and Scorpions are utterly badass - VC don't get them!

TheJo0vler
18-02-2008, 03:53
I think for sheer power vc will top TK. But i do no believe that is a good enough reason to not take TK. TK are still very competitive when used right.

1. We have three of the best units in the game in the scorpian, carrion and SSC.
2. VC do not have miscast protection so all this talk of massive amounts of powerdice can be unravelled in one (well two) throws of the dice.
3. TK look alot better (mere oponion but most i know would agree)
4. EVERYBODY will be playing vc
5. TK's daddy can beat up VC's daddy...

Nedar
18-02-2008, 04:11
I think for sheer power vc will top TK. But i do no believe that is a good enough reason to not take TK. TK are still very competitive when used right.

True enough, TK are still a good army. VC just have the advantage of a brand new book.



1. We have three of the best units in the game in the scorpian, carrion and SSC.


VC has three of the best units in the game too: Blood Knights, Vargulfs, and everything else in our book ;)



2. VC do not have miscast protection so all this talk of massive amounts of powerdice can be unravelled in one (well two) throws of the dice.

Most VC will be casting with a single dice most of the time, so very little chance of misscasting overall. Less than the old book, and having Unholy Cynosure as some insurance.



3. TK look alot better (mere oponion but most i know would agree)

New VC is the best line of models to date IMO. Our skeletons are more badass than your skeletons ;)



4. EVERYBODY will be playing vc

Ugh, everyone please play TK and not my beloved VC :( I hate bandwagons.



5. TK's daddy can beat up VC's daddy...

Odd, since we both have the same daddy I believe :cool:


I'm very interested to see how the new TK will look, but I don't know how recently they got their book so it could be a number of years away. All in all, i'm happy my first army of choice has new stuff, but TK was my second choice way back when. Viva the Undead!

Jampire
18-02-2008, 04:32
I would choose based on which models you like the most. Tomb Kings Egyptian influence, or VC horror influence.
I was drawn to TK when they first came out but money prevented me from getting them at the time. Personally, I'm glad I waited. The new VC ROCK.
About the bandwagon thing, about 6 people have pre-ordered the Spearhead in my area. I imagine there will be lots of hot undead-on-undead action in the following months!

Yade
18-02-2008, 06:01
Tomb Kings are an army to play only if you like the models and a challenge.

They are a good looking army but there are some very serious design flaws built into them and that is why they have not performed well historically in competitive environments. However, they are due for a new book soon and it might be good to build them now knowing that they might get the same kind of Viagra that the VC got.

sulla
18-02-2008, 06:15
Why choose TK?

You like Egypt?
You like gunlines?
You like Egyptian gunlines?
You hate miscasts with a passion?
You like the look of frusration on your opponent's face when you cast the same spell on the same unit for the 4th time after he has burnt up all his d-dice and scrolls?
You want to smash all those VC infantry with your catupults and chariot squadrons while simultaneously eating his vampires with your scorpions and feeding his elite infantry your craptastic 'heavy' cav?

Honestly? They TK are a solid but unspectacular gunline force that are not really comparable with the dynamic VC army. If you like a relentless but fairly static army that forces the enemy to come to you, TK will do it way better than the VC.

Yade
18-02-2008, 06:21
I played TK yesterday with the new VC. Nothing like watching the other player's face when he realized that he needed to roll 7s to get anything off against them.

The only really good thing about TK is that they ALWAYS hit on 5s when shooting; opponents tend to forget that.

Voss
18-02-2008, 06:29
After playing Bretonnia for a couple of years i was thinking of starting another army and the undead seemed like a good choice. the TK have always seemed like a cool army to pick with their different playing style, but then i saw all the new threads about the new VC book.....

from what ive read it seems that new VC will be better than what TK are good at (magic), but that they will be able to also throw out a nice lord and some killer units with the new grave gaurd and blood knights. plus VC can raise a massive amount of zombies. so if i were to choose an undead army why should i pick TK when it seems that VC are just better at everything TK does best. or am i just missing something here?:confused:

You aren't, unfortunately. If you want to overpay for multiple underachieving characters which will directly undermine the amount of troops you can bring to the table, choose Tomb Kings.

What do the Tomb Kings have going for them in the face of the new, improved Vampires?

Shooting. Thats right. Ranged attacks, the abandoned stepchild of Fantasy. You can crank out a lot. Of course, vampire armies particularly can shrug it off and replenish the units, but hey. At least you did something.

Monstrous creatures (including Ushabti). Its something of an advantage. Tomb Scorpions are fairly cheap, even if they can't negate ranks.

And thats about it... Yes, you can't miscast. Whee. At 2000 points you can fit in all of 5 very limited spells, 6 in one turn if you use a hieractic jar, and a couple bound items (a grand total of 3 exist, plus the casket, pretty sad for a category thats specifically called out in the magic section). Lizards, high elves and chaos can spank you in the magical field if they are so inclined, not to mention the new VC.

Jack of Blades
18-02-2008, 06:44
It'll be fine guys. There's loads of bandwagon jumpers, but they'll quit the army after a month and never really do anything too serious with it :)

I myself would pick up TK as a secondary army. Far more interesting than any other force... except VC, but they may still be more interesting than VC depending on what clicks for you.

JustTony
18-02-2008, 08:23
I play Tomb Kings because of a couple of things. First, Ancient Egypt is just plain cool and so are the Tomb King's models. Secondly they are an army that somewhat mitigates horrible dice rolling, at which I am a world champion.

The first fantasy army I played was O&G's and in one tournament, out of 15 turns played (3 games, 6 turns per game) at least 3 units per turn squabbled due to animosity rolls and on FOUR! separate turns EVERY unit that could squabble did. In the last game it happened twice on turn 2 and turn 3. By the end of his turn three the only thing left were the crews of two spear chukka's, legging it off the table as fast as possible. After that, I wanted an army that couldn't be FUBARed by the dice again. Tomb Kings are closest to my ideal there. The dice can still hose you but it's a little harder.

I still have and play my Orcs & Gobbos' but I only play them for a lark and a laugh, never anything remotely serious, like a tourney. My wife's Wood Elves think they make great pincushions.

Peace: through superior firepower.

Anhktepot
18-02-2008, 09:17
Who cares if the new VC are more powerful? TK are one of the best looking armies out there IMO, and that should be enough to get them. They are more challenging to play than VC, but that is just a good thing right? And for the record, I also play VC... :cool:

Gorbad Ironclaw
18-02-2008, 09:44
Honestly? They TK are a solid but unspectacular gunline force that are not really comparable with the dynamic VC army. If you like a relentless but fairly static army that forces the enemy to come to you, TK will do it way better than the VC.

That's only one way to play it. It doesn't have to be a gunline army, you can make some very credible assault armies, both infantry based and chariot based, or somewhere in between.

And the VC army lost a ton of mobility with the new book IMO. No skirmishing ghouls is a huge change, combined with more expensive(but better) Black Knights, worse Dire Wolves etc.

Nomad
18-02-2008, 18:57
Looking at relative army power, Tomb Kings may currently be less powerful than the new Vampire Counts but, unlike the VCs, are still due for a new Army Book. Given the trend for army power to increase, the eventual Tomb Kings upgrade (likely to be one of the later ones this edition) will stomp the Vampires flat (possibly).

I personally picked the Tomb Kings because I liked their models. I realise that this is a bit subjective, but I prefer the TK models (especially the Tomb Guard) to the VC range.

sulla
18-02-2008, 20:21
That's only one way to play it. It doesn't have to be a gunline army, you can make some very credible assault armies, both infantry based and chariot based, or somewhere in between.

The TK army has much better synergy as a gunline than as an assasult army. As an assault army, it becomes totally dependant on a successful magic phase for charging and the extra attacks to bolster your mediocre attacking abilities, and being able to neutralise enemy shooting since even mild shooting (like Elves can bring) can wipe out your heavy hitters leaving you with a lot of s3/4 to try and destroy them.

On the other hand, the shooting army doesn't need to rely on magic so much. The extra magical shot is nice but without it, you still get to shoot each turn anyway. And there are more slots available for those war machine and mage killing scorpions and carrion since you don't need the slots for ushabti or chariots.


And the VC army lost a ton of mobility with the new book IMO. No skirmishing ghouls is a huge change, combined with more expensive(but better) Black Knights, worse Dire Wolves etc.

Certainly the typical blood dragon armies I always used to face have been nerfed, but the VC army will not be a static army like the TK for one reason; marching. It is reasonably easy to tailor you VC army so the entire army, even the flankers, can march... TK can never hope to match the mobility of the VC army.

Please don't misunderstand me here. I'm not trying to say that TK are a poor army or anything, just that they work far better played a certain way than another way. It's no different to players trying to make Elven gunlines. It can be done, but won't be nearly as effective as a combined arms or combat army.

theunwantedbeing
18-02-2008, 21:43
Tomb Kings can shoot, Vampire Counts cant.
That's about the only advantage VC have over tomb kings now(well when the new rules appear), it's a useful advantage though.

warhawk95
18-02-2008, 23:00
Thanks for all the answers

i really like both models and could care less with that so that isnt a problem at all. the question i guess i was really asking is are TK still viable to choose or do VC just do what they do better and then some (stronger lords and heroes), it seems to me that everything ive read on TK and VC that they can both field an aray of different kind of armys (offensive, deffensive, heavy magic, assauly ect...) its just that do VC do it better. (the only advantage ive gotten is that TK can shoot and VC cant). am i correct in saying this cause if so VC are gonna be it if not then maybe ill go with TK.

philipc68
19-02-2008, 01:19
Well, I liked the old style mixed undead armies and generally used skeletons and zombies led by a living Necromancer. I don't like vampires or the pseudo-Egyptian feel of TK so my (as yet unapinted) undead will be what I thing of as a "Celtic" style Barrow Kings army using the TK rules.

P

Alathir
19-02-2008, 01:49
Tomb Kings can shoot, Vampire Counts cant.
That's about the only advantage VC have over tomb kings now(well when the new rules appear), it's a useful advantage though.


I can't help but disagree.

Indeed, Tomb Kings do have a powerful shooting phase where Vampire Counts do not. Ever been on the receiving end of 2 Screaming Skull Catapults with both of them firing twice a turn? That will spell panicy doom for almost any army. Screaming Skull Catapults are game-breakers.

Also, I still consider Tomb Kings to have the most powerful magic phase in the game which makes their army amazingly mobile, something the Vampire Counts dont really have. Anyone who has faced off against a High Liche + casket knows the pain I am talking about.

I don't even need to talk about the effectiveness of Carrions, Scoprions, Ushabti or the Bone Giant (have you seen this thing go against weapon skill 2 opponents? Freaking Hilarious.)

Oh, and a Tomb King has an extra wound over the Vampire Count :p

I'm not a Tomb Kings player by the way.

Sir Charles
19-02-2008, 04:11
I go to disagree with the VC being less mobile thing now that all vampires allow martching that gives tem a much more relable double move than TK while still having the option of launching magic charges.

Nedar
19-02-2008, 04:24
Like Sulla said Gorbad: The VC are are much faster than they used to be...by a lot in fact.

The loss of skirmishing ghouls? I don't get how this hurts us when you can take a blood line power to give your ghouls a FREE move before the game starts. Not to mention that we have a FAR faster skirmishing unit that is quite a bit better than ghouls: Cairn Wraiths.

Vargulfs have a move of 8", can always march, and let others march due to the Vampire rule (I'm planning on running wolves near them, talks about fast flankers).

This is all before you take into account the fact that we can recast Van Hels all we want while there are still power dice.

The VC are fast now, very scarily fast indeed o_O


As much as I don't want to lobby for the VC, I gota say that they are an amazing army under the new rules. If you like both the models sets you should then look at something else, such as the theme you might want to play. If you like the egyptian theme more then go for it.

You asked if the TKs are still viable. Yes they are...very much so. Alathir listed quite a few reasons why too. The SSC is one of the best artillery pieces in all of warhammer. The TKs have a very powerfull magic phase that consists of no misscasting (something the VC can still do, albiet rarely now due to IoN spaming being so good). The Casket of Souls is a very strong boost to your magic phase and can do disasterous amounts of damage at times.

Tomb scorpions have poison and killing blow, and i've stated many times that KB is one of the most invaluable abilites to have access to (VC do this way better however: Wights). Carrions are very usefull, I've seen Ushabti in action before and combined with being one of the TKs best models: they are quite powerful buggers contrary to a few claims i've seen. Bone Giants i've not seen too much of, but the model is awsome nonetheless.

So yes, the TK are very viable indeed. However with the new book the VC are looking to be quite a powerful and customizable army indeed.

Highborn
19-02-2008, 06:24
The TK are a scalpel army. They have 5 units capable of charging over 20" in any given turn, with carrion being the only unit in the game capable of a first turn charge reliably at a total charge of 40". Deployed behind your line, they have 20" to redeploy into range and LoS of their target and a further 20" charge in the magic phase. People will dispel incantations, sure, but TK are more than capable of forcing through an incantation in any given turn with multiple casts of the same spell. It also makes TK units more reliable than regular fast units supplemented by movement spells, because you can spend your whole magic phase and up to 14 incantation dice making sure that one game-breaking spell goes off.

The beauty of the TK list is your opponent doesn't know where the threat is coming from. A unit of light chariots can start the turn in your front arc, move 8" with no penalties for reforms to land in your flank arc and magically charge in for 3D3 S4 impact hits on your flank, along with the respectable WS3 S4 of the charioteers and 9 WS2 S3 of the drivers and horses. If your opponent has placed a unit to threaten or block that line of advance, your attention can go to the scorpion with a total move of 21", poison and killing blow. If your tomb guard aren't holding the line well enough, your magic can bolster them back to full strength give your bone giant another turn to get into position. If enemy flyers or fast cav have you surprised, just blast them, and if you have nothing else to do, fire your catapults twice that turn.

TK units (like VC) are immune to psychology and unbreakable. Unlike VC, TK will never miscast, suffer no modifers to hit with shooting, and do not crumble if their expensive fighty lord dies. The TK heirophant is a mixed blessing - weak, yes, but can reasonably be kept out of combat where a vampire cannot.

I think TK are WFB's definitive 'scalpel' army, able to strike hard and fast at any point. They're completely reliable, and absolutely deadly, but are by no means an easy army to play.

Dirty Fingers
19-02-2008, 06:35
Just wanted to throw it out there, but the Tomb Scorpion is absolutely amazing. It's honestly one of my favorite units/models in the game. I don't play TK, but I have a friend who does and let me tell you, I have seen him do some truly wonderous things with these buggers....occasionally game-winning, fate reversing things.

snurl
19-02-2008, 07:22
Don't underestimate the powers of the swarms either.
On Saturday night, They weathered 3 goblin fanatics in order to charge a unit of Night Goblins, losing 4 wounds. They then unleashed 20 poisoned attacks, with 7 coming up 6's, and 6 more normal hits that eventually wounded. Overrun city. :D

Nerhesi
19-02-2008, 15:16
I think for sheer power vc will top TK. But i do no believe that is a good enough reason to not take TK. TK are still very competitive when used right.

1. We have three of the best units in the game in the scorpian, carrion and SSC.


The only problem with this is that those 3 units are all supporting units. Not very good at all on their own. Rare exceptions (SSC vs treeman, Scorp vs single characters)

Nerhesi
19-02-2008, 15:19
Overall, yes, TK is an interesting, semi-cool,pile of crap when compared to VC.

I have 5k. I love playing it - but really, VC is pretty much TK+++++++ now.

TK is just SO expensive, with very little attrition power in comparison.
------

The Secret to beating the TK? Let him rez and smite his heart away - stop the urgency incantation that is "key".

You stop that - he loses. Offensive TK that is. King, with 3 priests, and 1 jar is 1d6 X 2, 2d6 X 4 urgencies..

It can be tough, they all have to be within a foot of the unit - but save your scrolls and tricks.. and just watch that army collapse.

warhawk95
19-02-2008, 16:08
So it seems to me the answer to my question is yes, the TK are still a very viable army and do somethings that VC can't (no miscasts, shooting, still some strong units like TS and SSC). i still havent decided which on i would like to play as my second but thanks for all the help, im just glad i didnt count TK out too early :cool:

if anyone else has anything to add then please do!

forgottenlor
19-02-2008, 16:20
I haven`t played the new VCs, though I have played the old ones, and though I like VC, Tomb kings remains my favorite army. Is it "better?" probably not. VC is much more mobile, and vampires are better heroes than tomb kings. VC is probably easier to win with.
Tomb kings is, simply put, the most original army in warhammer. Not only are the figures different in their look, but the playing style in definately unique. It is not an army where magic is simply a plus, but an army where magic is the engine. It definately requires some finesse to play, but I find it offers a whole set of different tactics and a different playing style. I always have thought of VC as a compromise between TK and a normal warhammer army. where VC begins to diverge from a mortal army, TK goes all the way.

Zoolander
19-02-2008, 22:24
I have both armies, as undead are my favorite. I can tell you right now that the new VC are much better than TK. The thing that was really cool about TK was the magic. Now VC has a very similar (but better) magic system. But if you are just talking models, TK has some great looking models as well, and a very fun item straight out of Indiana Jones!

Wolfblade670
08-03-2008, 06:51
5. TK's daddy can beat up VC's daddy...



Odd, since we both have the same daddy I believe :cool:



I just got this hilarious image of Nagash punching himself in the face repeatedly... :p