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UltimateNagash
18-02-2008, 14:00
Figured we would need one of these... Anyway, some questions I think we need asking are below - please help ;)
1) How do the Accursed Armour and Helm of Commandment work together?
2) If the Black Coach is Ethereal, what happens if it moves through terrain that would normally destroy it?
3) Does Vlad have Supernatural Horror? Bestiary says no, army list says yes.
Those are the only queries I have - any answers?

Tili
18-02-2008, 14:49
1) You cant have 2 Magic armors on a character so they dont :p ... and if they are on different characters and you target the character with the armor with the helm then I think you have the WS of the bearer of the helm - 3...
2) No idea, the rules contradict eachother... but fluffwise it would just move through terrain ofcourse.
3) No idea.

UltimateNagash
18-02-2008, 15:02
1) Helm isn't armour, so they can be put on the same model.
Now, he definitely if he has both, everyone will have his WS-3, but if he's given someone elses, what happens?

Chaos Undecided
18-02-2008, 15:14
The rules under the old VC book for ethereal creatures states they cant end their turn inside impassable terrain, maybe an ethereal black coach could therefore pass through terrain that would normally destroy a chariot if it could do so in a single turn but would otherwise be forced to go around it?

SuperBeast
18-02-2008, 15:24
Will probably get errata'd, but RAW, the character passes on their modified WS when wearing both items.

Chariots suffer damage when passing through dfficult terrain, however ethereal models ignore it for movement purposes; so again, RAW, Black Coach takes no damage from difficult terrain when ethereal.

Vlad does have supernatural horror (lists supercede bestiary, going on previous FAQ).

Question of my own; summon creatures of the night...
Can you IoN units of bats and wolves BEYOND their stated maximum unit size?
(i.e. Fell Bats have a stated maxima of 10 in the list, can you use IoN to increase the unit to 11?)

Jack of Blades
18-02-2008, 15:35
Because the Helm uses the bearer's WS (and the wearer does not receive a negative WS modifier), you don't get the -3 WS.

I know that some people will say that he still gets -3 WS because the Armour is still there though. Thing is, the model transfers his own weapon skill - which is unaffected by the Armour - and uses it on the model. Essentially, the model fights at the same WS as the Character using the Helm of Commandment, so if for example the target of the Helm is in contact with a Rapturous Standard, the WS isn't affected. But if the wearer of the Helmet was hit by for example the Dark Elf Word of Pain, then the WS would be affected.

Simplified...
The model will have its WS and any modifiers to the WS (so a Sword of Striking will still give you +1 to hit for example) taken away, while the user of the Helmet transfers its own WS and any modifiers to that to the model. You might want to think of it as simply replacing the profile stat and any modifiers to it with the wearer's profile stat and any modifiers to it.


Since it's Ethereal, the terrain has no effect.


If one part says that he has - he probably does, so I'd count on it.

Gorbad Ironclaw
18-02-2008, 15:46
Seems to me a Vampire Lord would then give out WS 4 as his WS is reduced by 3. Lesson being, don't combine the two!


Also, the Ethereal rules says to treat all terrain as open for movement, so that seems clear enough to me.


No idea about the last question. Hadn't even noticed there was a difference, haven't really looked at the special characters at all.

UltimateNagash
18-02-2008, 15:55
They still can't enter Impassible Terrain.

See, I was going on the list, not the Bestiary myself...

And to your question - I say yes. That unit size is designed when buying the units. I mean, you don't pay additional points when raising, so, (really badly said), I think you can raise beyond the maximum unit size in the list...

Zoned
20-02-2008, 05:41
Is this really how Konrad works? Let's say he's frenzied and so gets 5 attacks. Let's say he's in a challenge and hits and wounds with all 5 attacks, and his opponent fails all his saves. His sword doubles the amount of unsaved wounds. Red Fury says for every unsaved wound he gets an extra attack. So Konrad would get an extra 10 attacks? A bit extreme, of course, but you get how gross this would be in a challenge.

Zoned

Nedar
20-02-2008, 06:04
Is this really how Konrad works? Let's say he's frenzied and so gets 5 attacks. Let's say he's in a challenge and hits and wounds with all 5 attacks, and his opponent fails all his saves. His sword doubles the amount of unsaved wounds. Red Fury says for every unsaved wound he gets an extra attack. So Konrad would get an extra 10 attacks? A bit extreme, of course, but you get how gross this would be in a challenge.

Zoned

I do believe this is how RAW works from what I remember of the book. I could be wrong though.


As for Accursed and Helm i'd have to read the exact wording in the rulebook as what I have just says "uses bearer WS" and "-3 to WS and I and +1T". Doesn't give me an accurate basis for RAW. I'd think that if the helm let you fight with the bearers WS, you'd have it, and the armor would still give you a -3 WS penalty to that unless it states something about your profile WS or something. I had planned to have my Wight BSB wear this armor for this very reason till I realized he might still be going on WS4 (not bad since that is his base anyway).

Black Coach can move through woods w/ no penalty if he is ethereal.

Vlad has Supernatural Horror.

UltimateNagash
20-02-2008, 08:14
"The wearer has +1T, but suffers -3WS and -3I."
That's what it says...

Cheers

Jagosaja
20-02-2008, 09:41
I am so sad to see Ghastly Howl has not been improved but still affects only one unit in range. This makes Wraiths less worthy IMHO :(

Btw, what is the final conclusion, do Aura of Dark Majesty or Walking Death stack?

SuperBeast
20-02-2008, 10:43
No they don't, because both descriptions state "one or more".
Ie. no matter how many vamps in the combat, you still only get +1 CR.

Nedar
20-02-2008, 10:51
"The wearer has +1T, but suffers -3WS and -3I."
That's what it says...

Cheers

What's the wording of the Helm of Command then? If it says "A target unit may use the bearers WS in combat." it would sounds, to me, like you would use the Helm guys WS, but you be doing so at -3.

If it says more like "A target unit fights as if it's WS were the same as the bearers." It would probably lean more towards not having the -3.

Either way, it would probably mean a person with Helm and Accursed would confer their WS-3 to a unit.

Jagosaja
20-02-2008, 11:11
No they don't, because both descriptions state "one or more".
Ie. no matter how many vamps in the combat, you still only get +1 CR.

What about Aura of Dark Majesty?

IMHO, I believe Ethereal Black Coach can enter and go through impassable terrain, but cannot end movement inside of it.

Jack of Blades
20-02-2008, 11:12
There's a discussion for that over at the rules department :)

UltimateNagash
20-02-2008, 12:49
Yeah, I made it :D And I can't say the wording atm, I don't have the book atm (am at Uni).
Ghostly Howl is better though, since it can target a ItP unit, and is especially nasty against those evil heavy hitter units like Khorne Knights...
Wraiths with a Banshee are brill against them. No ranks, so no CR for that. Banshee can scream twice against them (one as shooting, and one as stand and shoot), and then the Wraiths butcher them with gw... :evilgrin:

And Aura of Dark Majesty and Walking Death don't stack. It pretty much states that with
"a model within 6'' of one or more Vampires with this power"
"a combat with one or more Vampires with this power"
or words to that effect...

Jagosaja
20-02-2008, 13:15
Thanks for clearing that out!

Sinner098
20-02-2008, 15:51
OK so the wording for helm of command is "If the wearer is not in combat, one friendly undead unit within 12" may use his Weapon Skill instead of their own for that Close Combat phase", the accursed armour states that the wearer has +1 Toughness, but -3 WS and =3 Initiative, how I read that is that the Accursed Armour changes the wearers stats, then if someone else was wearing the helm you shouldn't have to subtract 3 from the WS of whoever has the Accursed.

UltimateNagash
20-02-2008, 16:17
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking...

Jagosaja
20-02-2008, 21:17
Does bound spell from the Corpse Cart give only ASF to the models in 6" or they may reroll hits as well?

UltimateNagash
20-02-2008, 21:21
Just ASF. Sorry...

Jagosaja
20-02-2008, 21:25
What about Wight King, which basic equipment is he kitted with?

UltimateNagash
20-02-2008, 21:40
Hand weapon, heavy armour and shield. Which is pretty good for a small points increase (along with that T and W bonus) :)

Jagosaja
20-02-2008, 21:55
He is amazing for his points cost! Combine with Accursed Armor and Great Weapon, make him BSB, place with Grave Guard with Banner of Barrows and you have a beast of a hero for very small points.

BTW, how much is the upgrade to BSB, and is it the same for Vampire and Wight King? I guess it is around 25 pts, but I may be wrong.

Sinner098
20-02-2008, 22:08
Yep 25 pts, just like everyone else. The cool this I found out about the corpse carts ASF is it goes to ever unit in 6" not a specific one.

UltimateNagash
20-02-2008, 22:56
Yeah, all of them

And a Vampire BSB can take powers and a magic banner :)

SuperBeast
20-02-2008, 23:58
Quick question...
BRB, page 121, "Magic Armour', 3rd paragraph:
A character that is not allowed to wear ordinary armour cannot be given magic armour/helms...

As vamps have no armour option in the list, does this mean that they cannot be given magic armour unless they take Avatar of Death or Dread Knight bloodline powers?

I don't think this is the case (see the demo army lord on page 64 of the VC book).

UltimateNagash
21-02-2008, 00:08
"All Vampires may be given magic armour (including the Enchanted Shield). This replaces any similar mundane armour they possess through having the Avatar of Death or Dread Knight Vampire Powers."
So says page 85 of the book...

SuperBeast
21-02-2008, 00:11
"All Vampires may be given magic armour (including the Enchanted Shield). This replaces any similar mundane armour they possess through having the Avatar of Death or Dread Knight Vampire Powers."
So says page 85 of the book...
Congratulations! You have passed the test; another man would have called me a retard... :cries:

Jack of Blades
21-02-2008, 00:19
We all love you, SuperBeast <3
And hmm... all of them, eh... that's interesting.

Frgt/10
21-02-2008, 02:08
1. if the same model has the helm and the armour, the passed on WS is at -3. If a model with the helm passes on his WS to someone in the armour, then he (the model with the armour) deducts 3 from the passed on WS. had this confirmed less than an hour ago.

2. its ethereal, therefore it doesnt die.

3. either way he causes terror. although the bestiary section doesnt state he has supernatural horror, it DOES state he causes terror. (under special rules)

Bobofreak
21-02-2008, 02:51
1) Helm isn't armour, so they can be put on the same model.

I think Tili was right


1) You cant have 2 Magic armors on a character so they dont :p ... .

PG 121 of the rulebook


If a model has a magic shield he is allowed to wear a suit of normal armour. If a model is wearing a MAGIC HELM he is allowed to wear a suit of normal armour and carry a normal shield. If the model is wearing a suit of magic armour he is allowed to carry a normal shield.

Also with Avatar of Death which grants Heavy Armor and a great weapon or additional hand weapon. Would a Vampire lord still be able to cast? I thought mundane armour (IE... IRON) messed up magic fluff wise. I think this would make Vampires the only characters in the game that could cast in Normal Armour (I know Chaos Armour and Warpstone Armour allow it but there stated exceptions)

Ganymede
21-02-2008, 03:02
Armor does not disrupt magic in 7th edition. It just happens that most wizards can't take armor to begin with.

UltimateNagash
21-02-2008, 08:09
3. either way he causes terror. although the bestiary section doesnt state he has supernatural horror, it DOES state he causes terror. (under special rules)
Yeah, I noticed that as well. Doesn't matter then :D

Armor does not disrupt magic in 7th edition. It just happens that most wizards can't take armor to begin with.
True... Spoke to Mat(t?) Ward about it. Armour doesn't disrupt casting spells any more, but they need the option. That's where there's those two sentences for the Vampires, as they wouldn't have the option otherwise...

DeathlessDraich
21-02-2008, 09:26
2) I hope the previous sloppy way of explaining Ethereals have been improved - "cannot be hit in combat" - many players extended combat to include shooting.

UltimateNagash
21-02-2008, 09:42
Can't remember but I remember reading it says cannot be hurt by mundane attacks, or words to that effect...

Gorbad Ironclaw
21-02-2008, 13:18
2) I hope the previous sloppy way of explaining Ethereals have been improved - "cannot be hit in combat" - many players extended combat to include shooting.


It is much clearer now, but in any case, the old wording was sufficient. Close Combat is only a subset of 'Combat'.

Tili
21-02-2008, 13:31
So banshee's can stand & shoot now? Very nice!
But I am not a fan of ethereal anymore with all these deamons and forest spirits walking arround.