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knightime98
19-02-2008, 05:41
So, I played a game Sunday and absolutely go massacred.. Here's my list

Squig Herd (20 models total)
30 Night Goblins, netters, 2x Fanatics, Command, Spears
29 Night Goblins, netters, 2x Fanatics, Command, Spears
1 Night Goblin Shaman, lvl 2, 2x dispel scroll (joins 29x NG unit)
28 Orcs - Big un's - Spears, Command, Spirit Totem
2x - Boar Chariots
2x - Bolt Throwers w/Bullies
5 - Goblin Wolf Riders - w/spears, muscian
1 - Savage Orc Boss, Chariot, Porko's pig stikka, BSB
1 - Orc Shaman - lvl 2, 2 x dispel scroll (joins Big Uns)
1 - Black Orc Warboss - Akrit Axe, Big Ed's kicking boots, bosses best 'at,
enchanted shield, heavy armor (joins big uns)

I thought he would go heavy on the magic and I was wrong.. He only took
1 - lvl 2 Mage, unknown goodies (maybe ring fury of khaine?)
1 - Lord Level (Fighter) w/ some goodies unknown
1 - unit of 6 Silver helms, cmd
1 - unit of 8ish Silver helms, cmd
2 - Bolt Throwers
1 - Giant Eagle
2 - units of 20ish spearelves, cmd
1 - unit of 20 Swordmasters
2 - Tiranoc Chariots
1 - unit of 10 archers

The game was over at the end of the 2nd turn. REALLY, it was over. I won only 1 combat out of 6. All my units broke and ran then subsequently were caught and destroyed.

MVP - for my side, a single fanatic which killed and destroyed the 6 silver helms unit.

MVP - for Elves, Swordmasters. Beat the Big un's unit w/ aid of Tiranoc Chariot.

Savage Orc Chariot - failed charge on Giant Eagle which was killed by Fanatic. Made him face the wrong way and Never got to complete a charge... Come to think of it, only one chariot of mine charged.. It was ugly...

Squig Herd - Got Animosity (the kind that moves forward)... I did and charged Spear Elves.. They killed 6 squigs and lost combat as they had no attacks back...

Night Goblins - Got charged by Spear Elves - they got their nets off. However, spear elves fight in 2 ranks when charging as I fought out. I made my fear test. They were 5 wide and 4 deep.. They got 11 attacks hit like 8 times and at S2 wounded 5 times.. I saved one... I attacked back and did like 2 wounds.. I lost combat - broke and ran...

Big Un's - got charged by chariot and swordmasters.. He was just in range of both by a very small margin... Fanatics were released as sword masters charged. They ended their move on the fanatic.. I rolled double 1's and killed only 1 sword master. He proceeded to roll 11 S5 attacks and did 6 wounds. The chariot did another 2... His champion did nothing (Challenged by Warboss).. War boss hit 4 times (missed even with a reroll once).. Only wounded 3 times.. Lost combat by 4.. Need to stand on a 5 with reroll and of course no luck.. They ran and got caught.

Point of this ---- What's the use of playing Orcs vs. Elves.. They always kill you first in any charge... The Orcs are supposed to be good at CC but apparently not.. They get shredded as they have no real armor.. I'm at a loss...

My opponent said to take more shooting.. I fail to see the point.. Orcs w/Animostiy will run off a hill if they are on one or not shoot by squabbling.. Same with Night Goblins w/bows plus they are only 16" range... Rock Lobbers are not that accurate with the small template and as much as 10" drift..

Synopsis - The Orcs are good at breaking heads but not this game... I don't think they will ever win vs. Elves with this rule set... Sure you can change units but with spears fighting in 3 ranks at WS4 ASF.. How you beating that..
I still don't get how Orcs are good??? The boar chariots have 14" charge Tiranoc Chariot has 18" ... same with both sets of cav boars/ Elven Steeds.. Their foot move is 8 for orcs/ 10 for elves.. Despite the fact you charge who cares - they elves go first anyways... I don't get it...

Edit: I think the Brets and the Dwarves are the only 2 armies that are not impressed by the High Elves.. The Dwarves expect to be charged 90% of the time and the brets have 2+AS vs S3 attacks... They scough at the very idea of T3 elves.... So, in that respect the Elves are outmatched..

Ward.
19-02-2008, 06:01
Try another two bolt throwers, but there still isn't much an orc army can do against most opponents these days (not saying they can't win, it's just harder).

neXus6
19-02-2008, 06:17
Seems like you had some very poor luck and your opponent some very good luck for starters. Night Goblins with nets will, most of the time, be able to hold a unit of Spear Elves long enough for you to smash something into the side of the elves and wipe them.

Although not quite as nice a choice now they aren't a 2 - 1 choice you could try some Wolf Chariots, 18" move makes up for a little less toughness sometimes. Your army is pretty slow making it hard for you to use the main weakness of elves, charges into the flanks. Big units of Wolf Riders or a decent sized unit of Boars would hopefully be able to take the Spearelves with a flank charge.

I am rather intrigued at the Savage Orc BSB on Chariot, seems like complete waste really what with frenzy allowing it to be lead around when you really need all your chariots smashing into the Swordmasters, and a BSB kinda with your line troops.

The weakness of Elves are they are T3 and have very light armour, their only real defense is their speed, Greenskins can put down one of the fastest armies in the game, allowing for lots of flank charges and Impact Hits which would tear through High Elves. Noone is scared of 4-5 WS4 S3 attacks which is pretty much all they get when hit in the side or rear.

All in all don't give up after some poor luck, look at where your opponent dominated you and think about ways to change your army to get around it. Orcs and Goblins have speed, strength and firepower at their disposal, it is possible to make an army that can outrun, outfight, possibly outshoot if you went all in for artillery, and even out magic if you went all in for Shaman, High Elves.
You just have to know where to pick your battles, preferably stabbing the pointy ears in the back if at all possible. :D

knightime98
19-02-2008, 07:02
Although not quite as nice a choice now they aren't a 2 - 1 choice you could try some Wolf Chariots, 18" move makes up for a little less toughness sometimes.
Well, let me see you pass that Fear Test w/ Ld 6 to charge....



Your army is pretty slow making it hard for you to use the main weakness of elves, charges into the flanks. Big units of Wolf Riders or a decent sized unit of Boars would hopefully be able to take the Spearelves with a flank charge.

Well, all Elf units are faster than Orcs 1 on 1 as I mentioned with the exception of the Wolf Chariot which is subject to fear...



I am rather intrigued at the Savage Orc on Chariot, seems like a bit of a waste really what with frenzy allowing it to be lead around when you really need all your chariots smashing into the Swordmasters.

The redirecting of the chariot faced him towards the swordmasters (who were about 17-19 inches away) after failed charge... The Eagle was destroyed in the compulsory phase before move chargers.. So, it was a failed charge.. I didn't bother to look it up..




The weakness of Elves are they are T3 and have very light armour, their only real defence is their speed, Greenskins can put down one of the fastest armies in the game, allowing for lots of flank charges and Impact Hits which would tear through High Elves.
Lots of flank charges.. He had 2 units of silver helms one on each flank a solid middle.. There was no flank to expose.. As far as speed it concerned, once again, That belongs to the elves in every capacity.. boyz/spear elves, boars/elven steeds, boar chariot/tiranoc, white lion chariot.. All of it..

Point is.. The orcs have no phases to compete or win in.. The Elves have it all, magic, shooting, and combat (now)... Orcs are at a loss...

Someone mentioned the use of a big unit of wolf riders. It seems to me that it would be a points sink... The High Elf player shoots the highest point total unit first... I tried to make that a tough decision by having lower point but more units.. I failed all the way around... I attempted to stop his magic with his one mighty lvl 2 wizard... Both my wizzy's were off the board end of turn 2 including my general, and spirit totem... He had rein of the magic phase start of turn 3.. The game was over by then...

Leogun_91
19-02-2008, 07:25
Grom rules!!!

Take him and get that 5+killingblow

Goldenwolf
19-02-2008, 07:47
Knight,

Have your warboss and BSB in units. Break apart the Big 'Uns, as they suck! Take 2 units of boys instead.

With your warboss and BSB in range of your 4 core units, and hopefully 1-2 chariots, the LD issue will be negated. A Savage orc BSB in chariot is not the best choice as previously stated. Sure you get a free Special choice, but he will be lead around by the Eagle, who will flee and get away 98% of the time.

DO NOT ENGAGE THE SWORDMASTERS, unless you get them from behind. This unit will kill you. Cast spells and shoot bolt throwers at it. The Eagle will dance around you, so shoot him too.

Have you read Avian's Tactica Orcs? if not, please do so, as Elves are a tough nut to crack for the Orcs

neXus6
19-02-2008, 07:51
Considering how much you can outnumber the enemy you should win the Deployment Phase every time. You will still be placing cheap units by the time his army is down giving you a huge advantage.

I'd like to see a unit of Silver Helms stop an all out refused flank with Wolf Riders, Chariots, Boar Boyz, Black Orcs and Artillery fire while low cost distraction units block any relief from the other half of his army.

Yes you are right 1 on 1, face to face, Elves will put anything short of a Black Orc down but there is no way you should have to face them like that.

Avian's Tactics Page (http://folk.ntnu.no/~tarjeia/avian/subpage.php?s=index_greenskin_tactics)
:)

knightime98
19-02-2008, 09:37
Knight,

Have your warboss and BSB in units. Break apart the Big 'Uns, as they suck! Take 2 units of boys instead.

The Warboss was in the unit of Big un's!
What makes you think that WS3 boyz are going to be better than Big un's WS4?



With your warboss and BSB in range of your 4 core units, and hopefully 1-2 chariots, the LD issue will be negated.
You are correct on this issue. Ld generally was not an issue with this game. I made all my fear tests. Both BSB and General were centrally located in the middle of my line...



A Savage orc BSB in chariot is not the best choice as previously stated. Sure you get a free Special choice, but he will be lead around by the Eagle, who will flee and get away 98% of the time.

I took the Savage Orc BSB to break a unit of his.. Altogether with Porko's Pig Stikka you'll get a maximum of about 20 attacks/impact hits.. You can break a unit of elves that way! However, your assumption of the Great Eagle being in the way and leading along was correct... He got first turn.. He had an item which negated my +1 for first set up..



DO NOT ENGAGE THE SWORDMASTERS, unless you get them from behind. This unit will kill you. Cast spells and shoot bolt throwers at it. The Eagle will dance around you, so shoot him too.


Wow, the Orcs refusing to fight - how unfluffy is that.. Sure, shoot at a single skirmishing model - hit it on a 6...



Have you read Avian's Tactica Orcs? if not, please do so, as Elves are a tough nut to crack for the Orcs
I have read a bit of it but not all of it...


Considering how much you can outnumber the enemy you should win the Deployment Phase every time. You will still be placing cheap units by the time his army is down giving you a huge advantage.

We're talking about 2000 points not 4k or 5k.. We had about the same number of units...



I'd like to see a unit of Silver Helms stop an all out refused flank with Wolf Riders, Chariots, Boar Boyz, Black Orcs and Artillery fire while low cost distraction units block any relief from the other half of his army.

Aside from Wolf riders you have mentioned all specials... You only get so many... Sure you can load a side if you want then the other side or your middle starts lacking..
Secondly, specifically - Black Orcs and Boar Boyz are expensive and will be certainly favored to be shot first. The chariots however, I did take as many as I could 3 as their impact hits were certain to play a role... It was not to be. They sucked, this game....



Yes you are right 1 on 1, face to face, Elves will put anything short of a Black Orc down but there is no way you should have to face them like that.

I beg to differ with you on the Black Orcs on atleast 2 points... They would have done no different in this fight other than costing more points. The Swordmasters still would have done the same damage as the bigun's has light armor and shield 5+save.. The Black Orcs have a 5+save (unless you give them shields and use only a single choppa then 3+save).. Which against swordmasters would become a 5+ (-2 for S5)... However, the bolt throwers and archers would have paid their respects to them..

neXus6
19-02-2008, 10:11
We're talking about 2000 points not 4k or 5k.. We had about the same number of units...
Your telling me that you can't outnumber a High Elf Army at 2k...you could take 5 units of wolf riders for 300 points, they can kill warmachines, team up and kill archers, take and contest table quarters, run down already fleeing troops and misdirect charges, as well as giving you the advantage of having 90% of the opponents army deployed first.

Also its not just outnumbering across the whole army, if you outnumber him in one area of the field you have a much better chance of breaking what you hit, which is why refused flanks work.


Aside from Wolf riders you have mentioned all specials... You only get so many... Sure you can load a side if you want then the other side or your middle starts lacking..
Secondly, specifically - Black Orcs and Boar Boyz are expensive and will be certainly favored to be shot first. The chariots however, I did take as many as I could 3 as their impact hits were certain to play a role... It was not to be. They sucked, this game....
Black Orcs, Boar Boyz, 1 Chariot, 2 Bolt Throwers and a character on a Chariot, with some more boyz just in case, sounds fine to me. Refused flank works on not giving a damn about the crap you leave in the middle to slow them down, you do not have to deploy in a nice line and face off against the High Elves.



I beg to differ with you on the Black Orcs on atleast 2 points... They would have done no different in this fight other than costing more points. The Swordmasters still would have done the same damage as the bigun's has light armor and shield 5+save.. The Black Orcs have a 5+save (unless you give them shields and use only a single choppa then 3+save).. Which against swordmasters would become a 5+ (-2 for S5)... However, the bolt throwers and archers would have paid their respects to them..
YOU DO NOT GO NEAR SWORDMASTERS.
Against Spearelves however, Black Orcs will EASILY hold, if not win outright, 11 attacks, hitting on 4s, wounding on 5s with a 5+ save, thats 1 maybe 2 Orcs dead, you attack back hitting on 4s killing on 2s. That said normal Orcs should be able to at the very least hold spearelves to the front hopefully allowing the unit of Black Orcs to hit the side.

You seem to be under the impression that Bolt Throwers can shoot at everything...all the time ever, if they are shooting Black Orcs they aint shooting your Boarz, and vice versa, and also they will stop shooting your Orcs the second 2-3 60pt units of wolf riders break his lines and start heading for them and after that your decent units will be in combat.

knightime98
19-02-2008, 11:48
Your telling me that you can't outnumber a High Elf Army at 2k...you could take 5 units of wolf riders for 300 points, they can kill warmachines, team up and kill archers, take and contest table quarters, run down already fleeing troops and misdirect charges, as well as giving you the advantage of having 90% of the opponents army deployed first.
This is not a point lost. However, the wolf riders do not come with bows, spears or shields. You have to pay for those as well as a muscian (to rally).
It comes to about 76 points for 5 models with spears and musician. ~300 pts for 4 units.



Also its not just outnumbering across the whole army, if you outnumber him in one area of the field you have a much better chance of breaking what you hit, which is why refused flanks work.
This is also a point not lost. I played Empire vs. Tomb Kings and done this and through 4 turns it worked superbly.. However, a skull chukka catapult landed squarely on one of my units and killed like 15 spearmen (now his undead horsemen outnumbered me).. I ended up losing the game but a random scatter of the catapult which coincidentally was dead center of that spearmen unit. Usually, there are 2-3 woods pieces and 2-3 hill pieces, so
only the center is generally open to get through... The flanks are usually obscured...





Black Orcs, Boar Boyz, 1 Chariot, 2 Bolt Throwers and a character on a Chariot, with some more boyz just in case, sounds fine to me. Refused flank works on not giving a damn about the crap you leave in the middle to slow them down, you do not have to deploy in a nice line and face off against the High Elves.
I have played, the way you speak. Not recently though...






YOU DO NOT GO NEAR SWORDMASTERS.
Against Spearelves however, Black Orcs will EASILY hold, if not win outright, 11 attacks, hitting on 4s, wounding on 5s with a 5+ save, thats 1 maybe 2 Orcs dead, you attack back hitting on 4s killing on 2s. That said normal Orcs should be able to at the very least hold spearelves to the front hopefully allowing the unit of Black Orcs to hit the side.

They can not be simply ignored. They have a move of 10 and were dead center of the line. It sounds nice on paper but in practicality it is much much more difficult.

Spearelves unless they are charging fight in 3 ranks normally, 2 ranks if charging. So, they get 16 attacks not 11 borrowing no characters and such...
You are also borrowing the fact that the whole unit will make it in one piece. I optimally expect at best 1/2 the unit to make it to fight. Seriously... only 10 out of 20 to make it... Between magic and shooting... OUCH!! They get loving..




You seem to be under the impression that Bolt Throwers can shoot at everything...all the time ever, if they are shooting Black Orcs they aint shooting your Boarz, and vice versa, and also they will stop shooting your Orcs the second 2-3 60pt units of wolf riders break his lines and start heading for them and after that your decent units will be in combat.

Surely, the bolt throwers target only 1 unit at a time. However, it takes 2 to 3 turns to get to him and then he charges me if I don't do it just right. Animosity pending!

BTW a unit of Boar Boyz and/or Black Orcs usually run me around 400-450 pts for each unit... 12 Boar Boyz w/cmd or 24-25 Black orcs w/cmd and usually both will have a banner of some sort either Noggs or War Banner..

Oh and finally my last point..
The Generals Waagh?? What's the point?? Seriously, I mean it too why even try it.. You want the spear elves to charge you so that they only get 2 ranks to fight instead of 3 if you charge them.. Not only that if you roll a 1 on one of your big units for the Waagh you get a d6 Wounds.. I had a unit of Wolf Riders destroy themselves during a Waagh 2 games ago... That sucked.. The Waagh is more of a detriment than a good thing agains Elves.. It's a hinderance in my view....

Look, I really am not trying to be pessimistic but in all sincerity the Orcs don't match up to them in any regard. There are 2 things that work (sometimes) and they are Chariots (impact hits) and Fanatics... Magic if you don't squabble and you can get it off is another crutch.. Shooting with Gobbo's good luck on hitting with BS3 and long range...

The multiple units of Wolf riders is an idea... However, I expect that next game he'll bring one of his 2 dragons.. Maybe even both..... Joy!

neXus6
19-02-2008, 13:59
Oh if he brings 1 or 2 dragons put down 6 Bolt Throwers, a rock lobber and 2 doom divers, tear them to pieces and laugh. :D

Generals Waagh... use it when you've got a flank charge set up and you 100% want to make damn sure you don't roll a squabble. :p

Storak
19-02-2008, 15:02
Squig Herd - Got Animosity (the kind that moves forward)... I did and charged Spear Elves.. They killed 6 squigs and lost combat as they had no attacks back...

this is a typical "positive" animosity result.


Generals Waagh... use it when you've got a flank charge set up and you 100% want to make damn sure you don't roll a squabble.

to be rather sure that this works, you need to position a unit of orcs on foot at 3" of the flank of an elfish unit.

how you think you can achieve this against a mobile army, is beyond me...

warlord hack'a
19-02-2008, 16:51
loads of possibilties to set that up storak..

But here is where you went wrong knighttime: deployment.

you have 8 deployment choices counting characters! 8 for a HORDE army.. Shame on you! ;-). YEs deployment lost you the game, you say: "how to avoid swordmasters, they were in the middle of your board.." Well simple: deploy 2 dummy units opposite them and flank these two dummy units by units that can do something in close combat, preferably chariots. Then see as he either has to start wheeling to get to any meaningful units of yours, thereby exposing one of his flanks to your combat unit on the side, and possibly also getting in the way of his other units that are marching forward. Or he can continue straight on and waste time on the dummy units.

Also, bait and flee should work wonders! Use fast cav for this, or the dead cheap 2 base snot block (40 points for a deployment choice anyone?).

And when the swordmasters do get close slam the 2 boar chariots in his front, see how he likes that. Okay, your chariots failed you, but how exactly?

On to improving your list:
1) get more deployment choices (in my 2250 list I have 15 and that is only because I am sort of artillery heavy (2 chukkas, 1 rock lobber, 1 doom diver))
2) big uns in my opinion are only worth it when they are svg orcs, otherwise too little atacks for the 4 point upgrade.. yes you get +1 ws and +1 S, but you pay 28*4 points for that!! If you get a boss in a normal orc unit he gets the same benefits plus an extra attack plus he needs to be targetted to be killed plus he can accept challenges..
3) get more shooting, see the rocklobber land on his swordmasters, or the doomdiver on his knights
4) get some speedbumps, such as a single troll or a 2 base snot block, to annoy his chariots/swordmasters charge arc
5) svg orc big boss in chariot should be shielded by at least one unit of fast cav, otherwise he is a waste of points.
6) drop spears and command on night goblins, the extra ws2 s3 attacks will usually not cut it and you throw away the +1 parry save and pay points to get spears..
7) the squig herd is expensive and though great against elves once they hit they should not charge spear elves to the front as they have no save. Basic rule: only charge spearelves when you have a good armor save and toughness (so in short: orcs with light armour, choppa shield): 16 attacks from elves hitting on 3+ will be 11 hits (rounding up), S3 vs T 4 gives 5+ to wound gives 3.5 wounds before saves (appromimately) gives 1.75 wound after saves. Leaves 2.25 normal orcs and 2 boss attacks, they will kill appr. 1.5 elf which gives you a draw assuming you are not outnumbering. And this is your vanilla orc unit charging spear elves which is not something that is considered wise.. So drop the squig herd versus elves..

that's my 2 cents. You have got the core of the problem though: why charge elves as they strike first anyway. The answer: do not charge head on, let them charge you head on, but make it a disposable head, then hit them in the flanks. You should outdeploy, you shoudl be able to make that happen. And yes they have move 5 and you have move 4, but that does not mean you can not flank them, flanking has to do with where you put your units, so again down to outdeploying him..

Braad
19-02-2008, 19:58
I would drop the BSB on the savage orc, and put him on your flanks. Also, don't use the pigstikka. That's an item for frontal charges, and you don't want that with elves.

I also understand the fear of him taking loads of magic... But maybe it would have been better to take Mork's spirit totem instead of a shaman. Saves about 100 points, I think. Also, reduce the big un's to 20-25, and don't make them big 'uns. That will give you enough room pointswise to add another unit of 20-25 boyz. That will be waaay more annoying then just one big unit of big 'uns.

Also wondering, is this the first time you played and got killed by High elves, or the 22nd time? In case of first, maybe you just need a bit more practice. In second case, okay, I can see the problem... Just remember that, most of the time, someone has to lose. If you won, it might have been your mate coming here to complain.

If I read your story now, you were simply very unlucky on several occasions, rolling snake eyes when swordmasters end their move on a fanatic? yeah, that's unlucky.
I understand your feelings though, I had the same troubles against lizardmen, during 6th edition. Now, not anymore. Partly due to new rules, partly by practice and just playing to see what works, and what doesn't work.

Storak
19-02-2008, 22:21
loads of possibilties to set that up storak..

against a stupid opponent.

his list could be improved (big uns...) but so could the elfish list.

the elfish army is much more mobile. why you think you can outmaneuver them,
i don t know.

i don t think that the "hold back and force them to attack" idea is going to work either. about 2 of you 15 "units" move forward involuntarily every turn.


So drop the squig herd versus elves..

nice one. the last time he came here with questions, he was basically told that they are the best unit the O&G army has.
now they are not that good against close combat elves. they aren t great against gun lines either. nor against chariot/fast armies.

Goldenwolf
19-02-2008, 22:54
Knight,

We are not trying to make you feel crappy, so please don't take it that way. I had real issues with the Orcs when I first tried them as I kept wanting to put Blorks and Big Uns out there. If I may:

(01). Elite infantry against someone that is faster than you is a real points sink

(02). Putting more blocks of boys out there and even some wolf/spider riders always helps, as the regular boy is one of the best regular troops for the cost in the game, and small fast units help in a big way in terms of march blocking and hunting behind the lines.

(03). The Deployment and Movement phases are where most games are won, so if you can setup and move so he is responding to you, rather than the other way around, it helps a lot

(04). I have been using a Rock Lobba instead of Bolt throwers recently simply because of the issue you pointed out, that a 5 or 6 to hit blows.

(05). Giving a Black Orc a magic weapon is kind of useless, unless you're willing to spend 100 points, as he has the special rule.

(06). Dont take Savage orc bosses, unless you put one into a unit of savage Orc boar boyz, as otherwise they are too easily manipulated by faster armies, which is everyone but Dwarves.

Shamfrit
19-02-2008, 22:56
Hello again Knight, still not having any luck 'ay? Well, another two cents, you must be very rich by now :D

As has already been said, you're barely, barely outnumbering the High Elves, who haven't been able to outnumber since all infantry Core way back, and it's not likely to change back, so you really, really have to make the most of it. In the case of your list, the first thing to do is drop the Big 'Unz to 20. This gives you enough points for another Night Goblin unit with Short Bows and barely a fanatic if needed - now, you might be asking why should you take another Goblin unit? Well, simple answer is, they might only be 20 goblins, but they lose there fear against elves, have at least Static CR +3 with standard at the end of a round of combat against most things except Swordmasters, and can make light meals of small units, 10-15 elves, of any type will not be able to kill all of those gobbos! Reduce all of the goblins to 20 and take another unit of the same; already you've two extra units, yes, they'll take Fear more than likely. But after two rounds of shooting and magic, they'll be doing that anyway, so take an extra unit and they have to divide their fire/spell targetting.

Personally, I'd drop both Boar Chariots, and the Savage Orc on a Chariot, switching him for a Blorc with BSB, with the +1 attack banner, and use the points difference created to take the biggest unit of Black Orcs you have; 3S5 attacks or 2 S5 attacks with a 3+ armour save from orcs, make them 6 or more wide, will definately give you a kick!

And this is just personal choice, but I never put combat items on a Lord Blorc, they have 4-7 attacks at S5 or S7, which is wounding more or less all the elven army on anything bar a one regardless, he doesn;t need any more, what he does need is a boar, and if you're deliberately gong to be challenging, possibly Killing Blow.

Keep the Squigs, they rock for flanking and exploding.Or ram them into the chariots way, if they avoid you, it's a turn wasted for movement at least - so its a win win, mostly.

And last but by no means least, never give up! I got slaughtered by High Elves two weeks back, but I came back fighting and still lost, but there was ALOT of elves dead!

neXus6
20-02-2008, 00:13
how you think you can achieve this against a mobile army, is beyond me...

You seem to have missed my point...and also the fact that you get your full charge +d6, but thats another story.
My point was when a waagh is called your generals unit counts as getting a 6, i.e. it WILL NOT SQUABBLE so you WILL get the charge off, its nice to have a unit that wont fail that 1 crucial animosity test. :D


nice one. the last time he came here with questions, he was basically told that they are the best unit the O&G army has.
now they are not that good against close combat elves. they aren t great against gun lines either. nor against chariot/fast armies.
Squig herds are brilliant support units, but with low T and no armour they are only dangerous when they get the charge, read as get to strike first, this makes them useless againt High Elves even in their support roll. Its just one of those things.

knightime98
20-02-2008, 07:29
First and foremost, I would like to amend or add to the OP.
The army list that I posted and the High Elf army list posted were the list used that day.
The way that our club works is that you have your list in hand and you do not know what
the other player is bringing. You swap lists but when you swap them THAT IS YOUR LIST!
The only thing about the swap is that you only know the type of units/characters but NOT magic items, magic banners, or extra goodies (like fanatics).... You get the main idea of the types Lord Character, Hero's and so on.. but not what they have...

So, you do not know if he is bringing 2 dragons or 4 mages or whatever they can have... He could go with only a single general... It's a random hodge podge.. So, with that in mind you have to work around that...

The reason that I took Big un's was really for one reason and to that was to get the Spirit Totem banner. You have to have either black orcs or big uns to get a magic banner. As I stated in the OP, I thought he would have 3 mages and a general... Instead, he had only 1 mage and a general..... no dragon either which is why I took 2 bolt throwers...

Will he play the same list next week.. I ask you would you use the same list back to back.. More people would change it up as I would to leave the other guy guessing...

Edit: While a lot of your suggestions are nice, I find a lot of them dull and too generalized... Simply meaning that you need to provide a complete list. Saying you need this or that but not filling in the rest of it means much of nothing to me. Some of you have really put an effort forth to help with the ideas at hand. Atleast one poster and perhaps several have noted that Wolf Riders are really a way to go. I have 40 of them in total.. They can be a points sink at 12 pts a piece naked... You only get 2k and you only have so many things you can bring. The most notable mistake ( I use it lightly) was that I placed so many points into characters.. Some of you have hinted at it and some have said to drop the Savage Orc Boss altogether.
I think a more complete list of what you would like to play against a 2k Elf list would be more helpful to me. Meaning post the list you would play with all the goodies.. This would help me in my decisions to come up with something that might be competitive. I want to stand a chance against them... Also note, that as mentioned above you don't know what list he will be bringing...

Oh, and one last thing - I have mentioned it before but the boards we use usually have a moderate sized woods on either side (middle) something similar to this; H = Hill, W + Woods and __ = Edge of board.. Not to actual size of course but each space is roughly 3 inches

__ .....HHHH......................................... ...............................__
__.......HHHH..................................... ..................................__
__................................................ .....................................__
__ .................................................. ..................................__
__ .....WW........................................... ....WW.............HH...__
__ .....WW........................................... ...WW...........HH...__
__ .......WW......................................... .WW...........HH....__
__ ........WW........................................ ..WW..........HH....__
__ .................................................. .................................__
__ .................................................. ..HHHH........................__
__ .................................................. ...HHHHH.....................__

This would not be an uncommon type of set up for our club..

warlord hack'a
20-02-2008, 08:24
you are right knighttime, so here is my list, which is a take all commers list, so not specified against high elves. It is 2250 points as that is what we play, but you can remove what you see fit:

BO lord, hvy armour, shield, ulag axe, best boss at, ironback boar
BO big boss, BSB, boar, hvy armour, Morks spirit totem (don't leave home without the totem)
BO Big boss, hvy armour
night goblin shaman lvl 1, dispel scroll, mad cap mushrooms

2 units of 22 svg orcs with choppa, spears, FC
1 unit of 23 orc boyz with choppa, shield, FC
1 unit of 10 svg orcs, double choppa, boss, musician

20 night goblins, hw shield, 3 fanatics
20 night goblins, hw short bow, 2 fanatics

2 units of 2 snotling bases (speedbumps for enemy knights, they stop unwanted movement by rolling 6 on animosity, they are deployment choices and they can annoy enemy movement and prevent my svg orcs from being charge pulled. And that for 40 points per unit!)

5 wolfriders, spear, light armour, musician
2* 5 spiderriders, spear, shield, musician

2 spear chukkas
1 rock lobber
1 doomdiver

1 orc chariot
1 goblin chariot

now the idea behind my list: stop the worst of the enemy magic with 6 dispel dice and one dispel scroll, shoot things I can not handle in close combat and take out everything else in close combat. Svg orcs with spears will make most enemy units think twice of charging and those units that can take down these svg orcs will first have to find a way around my snot speedbumps. The speedbumps in turn are protected from enemy fast cav by my own chariots and fast cav and my fanatics.
And having 4 orc units backed up by 2 goblin units is quite a solid wall.. The 10 svg orcs with double choppa I just put in the list, do not know how well they will function..

warlord hack'a
20-02-2008, 08:28
and to Storak: if your high move (do not confuse high move with high manouverability, two different things!) elves have 8 deployment choices and I have say 13, then I can field all units that matter (i.e. the orc units) down after you put your entire force, including characters, down. That means that you nice expensive 20 strong swordmaster unit will be on the other side of the board from my orc units, now how is that not helping me in getting in the flank of that unit, even with your move 5? It does not take a stupid opponent to set this up, just more deployment choices and good deployment.

Braad
20-02-2008, 08:58
Woops, I've been giving some silly comments... Of course you need the Big 'Uns for the spirit totem...

But I'm still wondering Knighttime, how experienced are you with this army? And against High Elves? And how good is your opponent? Just to form a picture of the case...

If you ask me, the best way to win, is by experience. That might take some time. And most of us get massacred now and then. It is also very difficult to give advise here to make you win, just based on a list. We don't see what actually happens on the battlefield, how you move your forces and how you counter your opponents actions...

Also... your squigs lost... How was the explosion? Just curious...

knightime98
20-02-2008, 09:20
Woops, I've been giving some silly comments... Of course you need the Big 'Uns for the spirit totem...
Yes, indeed.



But I'm still wondering Knighttime, how experienced are you with this army? And against High Elves? And how good is your opponent? Just to form a picture of the case...
I was outstanding in 6th edition.. Stopped playing Orcs in 7th Edition because I felt that GW nerfed them.. I am trying to prove that to be wrong... So, my experience with 7th Edition is only about 5 games... 6th Edition about 200 games... Against High Elves - 2nd game against them with Orcs.. Opponent is a tough cookie but very fair and sportmanship like.



If you ask me, the best way to win, is by experience. That might take some time. And most of us get massacred now and then. It is also very difficult to give advise here to make you win, just based on a list. We don't see what actually happens on the battlefield, how you move your forces and how you counter your opponents actions...
Indeed...



Also... your squigs lost... How was the explosion? Just curious...
It went 9 inches and effected about 7-8 units mostly elves.. It wounded by Savage Orc Chariot and Character and killed a fanatic... Got about 8 spear elves total in 2 different units, a silver helm knight, damaged a tiranoc chariot but all in all did not stop the impetus of his attack in the slightest.

knightime98
20-02-2008, 09:27
Oh if he brings 1 or 2 dragons put down 6 Bolt Throwers, a rock lobber and 2 doom divers, tear them to pieces and laugh. :D

Generals Waagh... use it when you've got a flank charge set up and you 100% want to make damn sure you don't roll a squabble. :p

Yeah, read a previous post that shows how we do our lists... You don't know what he is bringing.. You are blind - like in a tournament... You can't change your list just because you see something and want to change it... Nice try!

General's Waagh only goes 1d6" then you declare charges after that...

Shamfrit
20-02-2008, 09:55
The general's waaagh is guaranteed though, which means you can potentially have a charge that turn of 14", which, considering you're the slower side, is a rather large surprise for your opponent - to suddenly have a lot of Black Orcs or similar in there face, re-rolling hits (okay, ASF, deal with it) is a sudden tide turn that can shock your opponent into swinging their play to cope with him rampaging across the battlefield.

Not to mention, you don't HAVE to use Waaagh!! at all!

knightime98
20-02-2008, 09:59
But here is where you went wrong knighttime: deployment.

you have 8 deployment choices counting characters! 8 for a HORDE army.. Shame on you! ;-). YEs deployment lost you the game, you say: "how to avoid swordmasters, they were in the middle of your board.." Well simple: deploy 2 dummy units opposite them and flank these two dummy units by units that can do something in close combat, preferably chariots. Then see as he either has to start wheeling to get to any meaningful units of yours, thereby exposing one of his flanks to your combat unit on the side, and possibly also getting in the way of his other units that are marching forward. Or he can continue straight on and waste time on the dummy units.

Well, you have the benefit of knowing what he has and are making the changes on the fly... I did not have that benefit.. He can and most likely will have a different list next time possibly with a dragon or maybe even 2!..

Swordmasters - It's not like they are on the field all by themselves.. You don't get 3 units to swarm around his one unit... Nice again on paper but in practicality much more difficult.



Also, bait and flee should work wonders! Use fast cav for this, or the dead cheap 2 base snot block (40 points for a deployment choice anyone?).
Point taken on this and as a matter of fact, I set up the lone wolf unit to bait his Silverhelms to charge. They did charge and thanks to a fanatic they never completed the charge! They were destroyed (MVP - was that fanatic)



And when the swordmasters do get close slam the 2 boar chariots in his front, see how he likes that. Okay, your chariots failed you, but how exactly?

Interesting that you should ask -
Chariot 1 - was charged by silver helms - opted to flee and did not rally - off the board he went
Chariot 2 - lagged behind the orc line a bit for a counter charge. However, the elf line charged and barely made both charges with Tiranoc Chariot and Swordmasters.. They won the combat and pursued and caught the Big un's.. The pursuit moved them past the charge arc of the chariot. He had to spin around and on Turn 4 (game was really over, I had this chariot, one bolt thrower and wolf riders left..) charged a unit of Spear Elves. He lost combat but held amazingly but then was flank charged by the Swordmasters.. Now really the end of the game..
Chariot 3 - Savage Orc w/Chariot - Took 2 wounds to Chariot from Squig Herd blowing up and Character took 1 wound.. Then High Elf shooting finished it off.

Slam the door on the swordmasters with 2 boar chariots..
A grand plan which once again is a sound plan on paper but holds no wieght.
He has 2 Tiranoc Chariots one on either side with an 18" charge range protecting them from exactly that scenario... Nice try!



On to improving your list:
1) get more deployment choices (in my 2250 list I have 15 and that is only because I am sort of artillery heavy (2 chukkas, 1 rock lobber, 1 doom diver))

Sure, I'm working on it.. I went Character heavy because I expected a magic heavy character list from him... It was not the case... He had only 2 characters?



2) big uns in my opinion are only worth it when they are svg orcs, otherwise too little atacks for the 4 point upgrade.. yes you get +1 ws and +1 S, but you pay 28*4 points for that!! If you get a boss in a normal orc unit he gets the same benefits plus an extra attack plus he needs to be targetted to be killed plus he can accept challenges..
A slight point made.. However, I got the Big Un's for the Spirit Totem.. Expected once again a magic heavy elf list and was not to be..



3) get more shooting, see the rocklobber land on his swordmasters, or the doomdiver on his knights
Point taken and will be highly considered!



4) get some speedbumps, such as a single troll or a 2 base snot block, to annoy his chariots/swordmasters charge arc
Point also taken..



5) svg orc big boss in chariot should be shielded by at least one unit of fast cav, otherwise he is a waste of points.

Not sure, if I will keep the Savage Orc Boar Chariot.. Can't seem to get him in the action without a bait unit (This game it was the Eagle)...



6) drop spears and command on night goblins, the extra ws2 s3 attacks will usually not cut it and you throw away the +1 parry save and pay points to get spears..
Spears let you fight in 2 ranks.. Why give that up?
Not sure what your intentions with a 20 night gobbos, no command, no spears, guess with nets, and x number of fanatics?
Really want to know what you expect out of this unit created like this... They save on a 5+ now... Ok..



7) the squig herd is expensive and though great against elves once they hit they should not charge spear elves to the front as they have no save. Basic rule: only charge spearelves when you have a good armor save and toughness (so in short: orcs with light armour, choppa shield): 16 attacks from elves hitting on 3+ will be 11 hits (rounding up), S3 vs T 4 gives 5+ to wound gives 3.5 wounds before saves (appromimately) gives 1.75 wound after saves. Leaves 2.25 normal orcs and 2 boss attacks, they will kill appr. 1.5 elf which gives you a draw assuming you are not outnumbering. And this is your vanilla orc unit charging spear elves which is not something that is considered wise.. So drop the squig herd versus elves..
1. Squigs - They are not expensive it was 120 pts.. That's not expensive in my book.. They had animosity and charged 6" and hit them.. I did not have a choice in the matter.
2. Vanilla Orcs - why you calling them vanilla they have a cmd group...




that's my 2 cents. You have got the core of the problem though: why charge elves as they strike first anyway. The answer: do not charge head on, let them charge you head on, but make it a disposable head, then hit them in the flanks. You should outdeploy, you shoudl be able to make that happen. And yes they have move 5 and you have move 4, but that does not mean you can not flank them, flanking has to do with where you put your units, so again down to outdeploying him..
I love the analogies that he is going to expose his flanks by charging bait units. He'll charge with other items (like his chariots) or shoot them and get them out of the way... This player is not dumb, he knows what's going on...
On the outdeployment- there is only so much useful space to put your stuff...

knightime98
20-02-2008, 10:10
The general's waaagh is guaranteed though, which means you can potentially have a charge that turn of 14", which, considering you're the slower side, is a rather large surprise for your opponent - to suddenly have a lot of Black Orcs or similar in there face, re-rolling hits (okay, ASF, deal with it) is a sudden tide turn that can shock your opponent into swinging their play to cope with him rampaging across the battlefield.

Not to mention, you don't HAVE to use Waaagh!! at all!

Re-rolling hits?? How is it that the Black Orcs reroll hits??
I missed that part altogether.
Also, the Black Orc unit would get 2 bolt throwers (6 single bolts each) and 10 archers for loving each turn they are around until they have under 1/2 unit strength which will be by the end of turn 2... Then no rank bonus (maybe 1)...

Milgram
20-02-2008, 10:22
shamfrit is wrong, the re-rolling is only with the magical waaagh.

but the blorcs against the throwers: 12 bolts hitting on 4+ (on long range), wounding on 4+ means 3 dead blorcs per turn, 2.5 if they have shields. on short range it goes up to 4 per turn. forget about the archers, 5-7 hits, 1-2 wounds and full armor against it.

no, you won't loose that much blorcs, especially if you get the wolves close to the bolt throwers.

knightime98
20-02-2008, 10:46
shamfrit is wrong, the re-rolling is only with the magical waaagh.
I saw it for myself.. I figured it out on my own...



but the blorcs against the throwers: 12 bolts hitting on 4+ (on long range), wounding on 4+ means 3 dead blorcs per turn, 2.5 if they have shields. on short range it goes up to 4 per turn. forget about the archers, 5-7 hits, 1-2 wounds and full armor against it.
Perhaps, he'll fire the single bolt shot instead? Magic also perhaps and maybe the curse of arrow attraction?



no, you won't loose that much blorcs, especially if you get the wolves close to the bolt throwers.
Bolt Throwers are usually on a hill and have units in front of them protecting them from a clear path.. It takes 3 turns to get around them.. By then the damage is already done...

Edit: Perhaps Foot of Gork or some such magic may be able to get rid of them.. But that is asking a lot...
You need to get the spell off and against High Elves it's usually an uphill battle...

Shamfrit
20-02-2008, 11:16
I do apologise Knight, I always get the spell and the ability mixed up!

Don't worry about the bolt throwers, it's a war of attrition yes, but as has already been said, you've got a 4+ save against Archer fire and A save on the 3rd rank against the single shot.

If you're worried about his magic, when he only has a Lvl. 2 Mage I'd be more worried about your play style than his - one spell caddie, in addition to that good old Mork's Totem should see off ALL of his magic, unless he brings a lord next time; give me a short while and I'll post a full list like you've asked for, put all my advice in one post instead of rambling on incoherently lol.

warlord hack'a
20-02-2008, 12:04
see my 2250 list which is against any enemy, so not tooled against high elves nor the high elf list you mentioned. It has 15 deployment choices. 2000 points of O&G shoudl have absolutely no less than 11 deployment choices imho. This will give you three units to field after he is done. Trick is to put these three units not opposite his main close combat units, weigh your flank..

I know the swordmasters are not on the field all by themselves, which is why outdeploying, having the swordmasters face only your chariots and maybe a night gob unit with fanatics, works wonders against the high elves: the swordmasters will have to move from that position to be of any use, and they can best do that by wheeling.. Seriusly, the deployment cost you the game..

Adn as for slamming the boar chariots in his swordmaster front: here is where the snot speedbumps, or some fast cav, or your fanatics or your artillery come in handy: block his chariots charge arc or shoot them, high elves have no throwaway units, everything is expensive, use your throwaway units to block his annoying units while your killeer units charge in. Even with him fielding 2 tiranoc chariots to flank his swordmasters you should be able to isolate the SM unit and hit home with your chariots. But you need throwaway units for this..

my 20 strong night gobbo's are my fanatic launchers, table quarter takers, flank charge threatheners, flank protectors (they will win from fast cav any day of the week), deployment choices and if need be they provide +3 static CR to any combat that needs this..

So my main point remains: you need to outdeploy. You tried to make an elite force out of O&G, they simply are not that (though svg orc big uns with spears do crank out a world of hurt), you need sacrifical units to delay part of his force while the rest of your force tries to overwhelm the other half of his army.

Dranthar
20-02-2008, 12:37
I'm gonna stick with what I said in your last thread and say that you would have done far better if you actually made good use of charge redirection. Even swordmasters go down when they've no choice but to charge a unit of snotlings at an angle, exposoing their flank to a pair of chariots you just happened to have lying around. ;)

Shooting for O&G = Bolt throwers, Stone throwers and Doom divers. I don't consider any of the rest as actual shooting - more like an amusing distraction. :D


<something about needing big 'uns for the spirit totem>
No you don't. In fact, if you had dropped the spears and the big uns upgrade on that orc unit, I'm betting you would have had close to enough points to instead take a black orc BSB with morks spirit totem. It's a far better choice than some overpriced big uns upgrade and I'm quite sure I suggested it in the last thread too...

Keep at it knightime. You have the tools, but you just need to figure out how to use what you've got (especially for the purpose of redirecting charges!). you

Storak
20-02-2008, 12:47
Knight, that "typical" table set up is SCREAMING for spider riders...


and to Storak: if your high move (do not confuse high move with high manouverability, two different things!)

i tend to disagree. while the two are not exactly the same, high speed obviously helps a lot with maneuverability.
while you might get a small deployment advantage (more below), basically all other advantages are on the elfish side.
better move (foot orcs move LESS than 8" per turn, factoring in animosity..), march blocking flyers and reliable cavalry.


elves have 8 deployment choices and I have say 13, then I can field all units that matter (i.e. the orc units) down after you put your entire force, including characters, down. That means that you nice expensive 20 strong swordmaster unit will be on the other side of the board from my orc units, now how is that not helping me in getting in the flank of that unit, even with your move 5? It does not take a stupid opponent to set this up, just more deployment choices and good deployment.

looking at their maps (which are rather similar to the ones we are using), i don t see a lot of ways to gain big advantages via deployment.
he basically will deploy his swordmasters opposite the hill that you will place your artillery on.

i don t see a flanking move of foot orcs around those woods as useful to your battle plan.

ps: i like your list and i think that it would have worked better than the one used by Knight (though i don t think that the elvish list was extremely strong either), especially against an inexperienced opponent (which doesn t seem to be the case).

pps: how far ahead of your units do you deploy your "speed bumps"?

warlord hack'a
20-02-2008, 13:34
high move is nice, but due to the great (I'm cynical here) movement rules of Warhammer you are basically screwed when you do anything else but wheel and march. Manouverable to me means you can easily change position (reserved for skirmishers, lone models, chariots to an extend and flyers of course). Elves, when turning and such, will only have 1/2 or 1/4 inch advantage to orcs (not counting animosity for convenience). Foot orcs (withou BO characters) do indeed on average move less than 8 inch a turn, but average does not matter, it is the turn of the charge that matters (except versus elves due to the fantastic (cynical again here) ASF rule). And in that turn O&G all of a sudden have a potential whopping 14" move!

As for the map, spiderriders (as you mention) are a must here, I take two because, though wolf riders are faster, the places on the open field are already taken by the rest of my force. But even with this kind of map you can weigh one flank, e.g by deploying the two chariots last, they together pack quite a punch. But indeed flanking around a forest with Orc foot troops is not a good idea, unless your goal is to keep them alive for the battle ;-).

as for the speed bumps, when needed as speed bumps (eg versus (chaos) knights) they go right in front of my blocks during deployment and then on turn 1 (I always lose who goes first so by that time the knights are 10" away if he rushed forward) move 6 inch forward and wheel and my svg orcs stay put or reshuffle a bit. Then in his turn he either has to manouver his knights to get away from the snots, or he charges in which case the snots most likely die, he overruns or stays put, in both cases I can countercharge 8 out of 10 times.
When not needed as speed bumps they go more on the flanks.

My whole army build revloves around flexible units, each one can fulfill multiple roles and basically it is a cat and mouse game of blocking and marchblocking and redirecting starting from turn 1.

warlord hack'a
20-02-2008, 14:17
p.s. Storak, I agree that the elf list could have been a lot better, 20 swordmasters in one unit is overkill, MSU is the way to go, mainly to prevent being outdeployed, which is the number one pain of elite armies in my opinion.

knightime98
21-02-2008, 09:48
Don't worry about the bolt throwers, it's a war of attrition yes, but as has already been said, you've got a 4+ save against Archer fire and A save on the 3rd rank against the single shot.


Single Bolt shot does not allow an armor save for any reason!

knightime98
21-02-2008, 09:57
Knight, that "typical" table set up is SCREAMING for spider riders...
Let me get this right..
You want 13pt models...
That have a Ld 6....
That fear elves ...
and will not get any bonuses when the General Waagh's....

and actually when he does Waaghh they have an equal chance of
destroying themselves by squabbling...

I'm missing something here.... I do have 20 Spider riders but they are points sinks also...

Sure they ignore woods and get a 5+ save but it's a +1 point to get shields...

neXus6
21-02-2008, 10:18
You need to look deeper. :)

Spider Riders ignore woods, and are fast cav. and are goblins. So they are very maneuverable, great for march and charge blocking and even better they don't cause panic in Orcs so you can happily flee them through your Boyz without a care in the world.

Fast Cav. do look like a points sink when you consider how fragile they are, but when you use them like they are ment to be used being fragile doesn't matter. Generally they should never combat anything more than a war machine crew or a couple of skirmishers, and at most throw them into the flank of a single rank unit if you need them. Being able to ignore terrain allows for Spiders to at times be even easier to keep out of LoS of ranged weapons than their faster wolf riding cousins.

knightime98
21-02-2008, 10:52
Well now then we are getting somewhere. I haven't thought of it that way before. Perhaps, you could get to a war machine easier and slow them down...

Milgram
21-02-2008, 11:46
Sure they ignore woods and get a 5+ save but it's a +1 point to get shields...

I believe they get shields for free, but I'm not quite sure atm. Wolfriders come without shields for sure. I'm almost always using spiderriders but they never actually came to use their armor...

as for the bolt thrower single shot: it doesn't matter. >24 inch = 50% chance to hit, kills an average of 1.7592... blorcs per turn (to the front, 4 blorcs deep, 2 bolts). therefore give any HE player a hug if he shoots single bolt to an orc unit.

warlord hack'a
21-02-2008, 12:24
knightime, use throwaway units, like fast cav. I alreayd posted the myriad of options you can use throwaway units for. Not every unit should be measured by how much damage they can do to the enemy in terms of casualties.. E.g. when I use 5 spiderriders (70something points) to lure a chaos khonre knight unit with general into a forest from which they will never escape in time they will have 'earned their points back' (I hate this term) for sure.
What do you think my snot blocks will achieve in close combat? Nothing. Their job is to stand in the way, make the opponent angle their charge at awkward angles and protect my main units from being rolled over. In that role they are invaluable, but just looking at the 80 points these 2 units cost you might think I can better spend that on a chariot or doomdiver because ' snots don't hit anything in close combat'..

Shamfrit
21-02-2008, 13:42
If you're worried about Fear in Spider Riders, use them in blocks of 10, two ranks, or one massive block of 20, which ignores fear, won't be fleeing from shooting QUITE so soon, and still gets the 5 S4 attacks and 5 poisoned attacks on the charge, with a good 2 ranks and a standard, suddenly, you're not looking so shabby.

That gives you US 40 to begin with :wtf:.

Storak
21-02-2008, 14:40
You need to look deeper. :)

Spider Riders ignore woods, and are fast cav. and are goblins. So they are very maneuverable, great for march and charge blocking and even better they don't cause panic in Orcs so you can happily flee them through your Boyz without a care in the world.

Fast Cav. do look like a points sink when you consider how fragile they are, but when you use them like they are ment to be used being fragile doesn't matter. Generally they should never combat anything more than a war machine crew or a couple of skirmishers, and at most throw them into the flank of a single rank unit if you need them. Being able to ignore terrain allows for Spiders to at times be even easier to keep out of LoS of ranged weapons than their faster wolf riding cousins.

agreed. march blocking and generally distracting the enemy. they generally should only attack the weakest enemy units (war machines, chariots, flanks of archers, single mage...)
even a flank attack on an enemy unit must be well considered. (i have too often seen O&G fast cav PROVIDING combat result points to the enemy)

their best way of killing real units is by standing in the path of a fleeing unit...

the main advantage of the spiders is by using a deployment zone (in front of the wood) that no other unit can use. standing on the edge of a wood makes them extremely safe and causes a headache to the enemy.
as no other orcish troops can use such a position to the same effect, i tend to find them in the all important range of generals leadership MORE often than their wolfish friends...

i would NOT use a big unit of spiders/wolfs. they make extremely good targets for boltthrowers. the spiders are fast cav and wont even get a rank bonus...
(boy, how i miss my 20 strong goblin wolfs with 2 goblin big bosses in front rank)

PS: don t forget the bows for extra annoyance. and at short range they might even hit once per game..

warlord hack'a
21-02-2008, 16:19
with GW's, that was mean, gobbo boss on wolf with GW, but not as bad as 5th ed night gobbo's on foot with GW and the bad moon banner, ASF with S5 for what, 3.5 points per model?

Storak
21-02-2008, 16:45
with GW's, that was mean, gobbo boss on wolf with GW, but not as bad as 5th ed night gobbo's on foot with GW and the bad moon banner, ASF with S5 for what, 3.5 points per model?

funny that you would mention it. i had a BIG unit of those as well....

(the wolfs had crown of command giving them (unmodified?) Ld 10 and the battle banner adding D6 to combat result. the unit that got charged by them and the wolf chariot coming along was in some major trouble... )

Urgat
21-02-2008, 17:20
Sorry if what i'll post here is redundent, I don't reallmy have the time to read all the thread, but I'll do so later, therefore I will just limit myself to a couple comments:

Squigs: just don't take squigs versus HE. I know, they're cool, I personally never leave home w/o them, but, then again, I never face HE. Squigs work fine in only one way: they get a charge, and wipe enough enemy units to prevent retaliation. That's what their 2S5 attacks are for, along with the higher WS (compared to teh rest of the army). T3 and no save mean they will die quickly to anything. Against ASF elves, they're a non-choice. Even weedy elves can kill a squig easily, so if the squigs can't even strike first, they die. It's a sad state of affair, but just leave them home, you would jhave more luck with a much cheaper gob unit, really. And I'm not even speaking about hoppers, that will just seem to disolve against any RnF HE unit, even if you flank/rear charge (skirmishers, they don't cancel rank bonues, they will probably get wiped out, really, just free points for elves).

Wolves and spiders: against HE, I'd take loads of them (5 per unit, musicians, nothing else), and give them bows. Running around units at fast speed, or through difficult terrain with ease, to unleash lots of cheap shots at these expensive, low toughness, low save elves works fine. It works fine against DE (and they have much nastier missile defenses), so I assume it works fine against HE as well. No need to charge anything with them, really, your odds to kill anything are not so much lower while shooting, and the benefit of not risking to die and break, on the other hand, is priceless. Besides, really, it really os more bothersome to the enemy to have them run on his flanks or behind him, rather than to die by the bucket against his units.

Well, my two cents.

Braad
21-02-2008, 17:57
Squigs: just don't take squigs versus HE. I know, they're cool, I personally never leave home w/o them, but, then again, I never face HE.

But what if you play in a tournament? You don't know if you'll face HE...
It should have it's use somewhere.

This topic makes me kinda curious for HE. I think I'm gonna try to play against some High Elf player I know some time soon and see what happens. Maybe I can tell some more useful things by then :p

What I think now after reading all this, is that in most cases the elves will outcompete the O&G. They have more fighting prowess with ASF, are more magicy, and of course I don't see O&G outshoot HE. So it's strenght in numbers, I guess... For each orc that dies, have two more ready.
And try to reduce his static CR with shooting before charging.
Or take spears, and wait for them to charge.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
21-02-2008, 21:19
Being a high elf player I know that the one thing I fear is impact hits. I would recommend black orcs, regular and big uns, chariots and loads of fast cav maybe with bows. Doom diver and rock lobber are a must in my opinion. Once most units of elves are flanked and/or hit in the front with a mean unit they will run. Except for white lions if your opponent ever uses them war machine them. I would not even bother fighting them if I was you:) Things like dragon mages could be a real problem for you too. Orc leadership is less than magnificent.. In honesty the above list is one that should be the easiest for you to beat. No pg or wl. All you need is lots of static combat res including banners and shoot the junk out of the swordmasters. Good luck:)

Urgat
22-02-2008, 01:45
But what if you play in a tournament?

Then send them to contest table quarters, or have them charge something that cannot really hurt them, even with luck (warmachines, lone mages, flank charges on charriots, or the few things that don't have ASF like eagles or -gasp- mage-ridden dragons). But sending them against any kind of HE unit (and that includes bowelve's unit fronts, even if too close for counterfire) is just free VP for the elf player, really (bare incredibly bad roll dices, of course, but then it can happen against anything).
They're just too darn fragile to let them being hit first.

That Guy
22-02-2008, 03:12
I'm getting in on the advice kind of late in the game, but here's what I have to offer:

You are right: GW nerfed Orcs this edition. Which is funny, 'cause they weren't overpowered before. Go figure.

Also, the High Elves new book makes them one of the most competitive armies in the game (right up there with Woodies). This was never going to be an easy game.

That being said, I feel you made it harder for yourself.

Squigs, both herds and hoppers, are for amusement only, and I never expect anything of them (this doesn't mean I don't take them; I always take a unit of hoppers, I'm just saying). For all the reasons already mentioned, they are particularly bad against Elves.

When I take Night Gobbos they are naked with MAYBE a command group and, at most, two fanatics. Not including the fanatics, they are a 60 point unit that exists to create difficult choices for my opponent. Sure, he could charge my big Orc block, but then he'd expose his flank to my Night Gobbos, and wouldn't it be embarrassing if that weedy little unit got the best of him by flanking him? It's sixty points well spent.

Spears are never worth it. Even Dark Elf spearmen usually end up using HW&S most of the time. I've never fielded optional spears and not regretted it (possible exception: savage orcs. That's a LOT more attacks...). Gobbos' best asset is that they're CHEAP.

Big 'Uns are never worth it. They should be fielded only for fluff reasons. Also, spears are never worth it. Particularly when you have to pay for them and thus lose your free choppa.

Mork's spirit totem is never worth it. It looks good on paper, but is disappointing in the field. Yes, I know you were expecting magic heavy. Take your scroll caddy and punish the tiny remains of his list for taking so many points in magic. That's how I go when I play Empire and it works very well.

This brings me to a general point about your list: it is not a take-all-comers list, which is problematic when you don't know what kind of army your opponent will field.

Put me down as yet another guy who's confused about your BSB. He doesn't make any sense to me at all, even after you explained him. Unfortunately, the only non-wizard characters worth taking in the 7th edition list are Black Orcs. One is the general, one is the BSB, and they both ride boars (mostly for the armor benefits, but it also gives them more freedom and more attacks).

Anyways, most (maybe all...) of that advice comes from Avian's excellent tactica. It has panned out quite well for me, and not following it has not been good to me.

Hope this helps. High Elves are really tough this edition, and compulsary movement doesn't make things easier.

warlord hack'a
22-02-2008, 08:11
it is cetainly worth it to take Morks spirit totem, 50 points for 3 dispel dice is a bargain if you go for magic defense..

knightime98
22-02-2008, 08:19
But what if you play in a tournament? You don't know if you'll face HE...
Yep, preparing for an HE army unexpectedly is very difficult...



What I think now after reading all this, is that in most cases the elves will outcompete the O&G. They have more fighting prowess with ASF, are more magicy, and of course I don't see O&G outshoot HE. So it's strenght in numbers, I guess... For each orc that dies, have two more ready.
And try to reduce his static CR with shooting before charging.
Or take spears, and wait for them to charge.

Wow, it really is a Revelation isn't it!
This is EXACTLY my point!
They win in every phase....
You can't charge them - you lose...
You can't bring magic - they have more and better of it...
You can't shoot them - They are better at it...
You can't out outmaneuver them - They are faster...

When I say that you can't - I really mean that HE player has you outmatched in the category... Whatever you have, the Elves have it and better.. And the real kicker to it is that Gobbo's and Night Gobbo's FEAR the elves.. Now, tell me how to beat these guys... This is exactly what this thread is all about...
I had to pause when I saw this poster finally see what I am talking about...

Go ahead, Waagh into the High Elves and lose.. Go ahead and charge them and get massacred.. Use magic, see if you can get it off..

What GW has done is toned down the O+G list and at the same time upscaled the High Elf list.. The pendulum swing is on the other side now...

The ASF messes it all up and if you get something that allows you to supposedly strike first - too bad - the elves beat you there again and again and again and again..

Like beating your head up against a brick wall :eyebrows:

Alathir
22-02-2008, 08:37
You seem to shoot down every piece of advice somebody gives you and are content to wallow in the apparent hopelessness of an Orc vs. High Elf match up. You need to lighten up and approach the situation practically, all this doom and gloom will get you no where.

First of all, they arent ALWAYS going to be better at every phase, particuarly the magic phase, like you said in your very first post, your opponent only had a lvl 2 mage, you can easily outmagic him or at least have enough dispel dice to hold off the brunt of it, (one of my regular orc and goblin opponents has no real difficulty enduring my magic phase and i take two lvl 2's and a lvl 1 with the ring of fury.

Also, the only combat unit you really have to fear is White Lions and Swordmasters, you can shoot the swordmasters easily enough, rock lobbers, bolt throwers, doom divers are all awesome at this. Just feed them fanatics (make sure you shoot any eagles he has) or really cheap units like goblins with no upgrades.

Lexy
22-02-2008, 08:39
Ah, but herer you miss something.

Don't shoot them with arrows, they are better, but
- You outnumber them in models.
- you outnumber them in units.
= you outnumber them in tactics
- you have template weapons.
- you still have foot of gork.
- you have T4

they want to charge, let them, if you charge you don't get that many bonuses.

You think he brings cavalry? use rocklobbers or doomdivers or make him crazy with two units wolfriders
you think he brings small elite units? use big blocks of orcs.
he brings chariots? orcs again.
He brings a dragon? take a wyvern and a giant.

You have a solution for every thread a high elves army can come up with.
And your solution is cheaper and sometimes even better then he has.

Shamfrit
22-02-2008, 09:24
Ah, but herer you miss something.

Don't shoot them with arrows, they are better, but
- You outnumber them in models.
- you outnumber them in units.
= you outnumber them in tactics
- you have template weapons.
- you still have foot of gork.
- you have T4

they want to charge, let them, if you charge you don't get that many bonuses.

You think he brings cavalry? use rocklobbers or doomdivers or make him crazy with two units wolfriders
you think he brings small elite units? use big blocks of orcs.
he brings chariots? orcs again.
He brings a dragon? take a wyvern and a giant.

You have a solution for every thread a high elves army can come up with.
And your solution is cheaper and sometimes even better then he has.

QFT, 'everything you can do we can do cheaper', that is so better than 'everything you can do we can do better, in smaller numbers.'

Knight, you should try playing Horde Skaven against High Elves, and then see how bad it is!

warlord hack'a
22-02-2008, 09:31
And Lexy is not saying: tailor your army once you know what he will bring, but he is just giving couter arguments to your rant on HE being better in every phase (right Lexy?)..

And PLEASE PEOPLE stop saying an army is more manouverable / can not be outmanouvered because their movement is higher.. That is plain nonsense. People fixate on M5 being beter than M4, just try and think of your last battles, how many times did you use your full move marching in a battle? Usually only the first two or so, after that it is flee/pursuit moves that can give you or your opponent movement boosts, marchblocking kicks in, your M5 is halted because the opponent put a dummy chargeblocker in front of your nose etc. etc.

O&G should be able to outdeploy HE any time of the day and it truly is deployment that determines how well you can outmanouver your opponent, not the speed of your infantry (though yes, the amount and speed of cavalry does have influence).

His HE foottroops have M5, does this stop your chariots from chargin them? Does this stop your M4 troops from charging them? No, you have waagh (though of course with ASF you do not want to chrage head on) No, what bothered you were his chariots who took out your chariots. I have already given the possible things you could do to prevent that: block their charge arc, shoot them etc.

O&G have a wide variety of troops, get the ONLY unit in the game that strikes terror in knight units of whatever army, have dead cheap bolt throwers, fast cav and throwaway units, have a basic trooper with S4 (first round of combat), T4 and 4+ save for 6 points per model.

Once again, knighttime, you thought you needed an elite army to fight the elite army of the elves, what you need to get used to is sacrifice part of your army, so the other part can beat the crap out of the enemy. Let his chariot charge your snots and kill them if this leaves your chariot free to charge his swordmasters, sacrifice a whole goblin unit if this means he will be positioning his flank for your countercharge, delay his troops while you shoot at them (mind you, you do need something to shoot at them).

What you should NOT do with O&G anymore (you could in 6th edition) is take a force that is completely dedicated to close combat as indeed other armies have gotten better in that department. So you need at least either a decent amount of shooting (by which I mean artillery) or a lot of magic (which is hard since all the nice magic trinkets got scrapped from the new O&G book, I miss ditto's double doing doodahs...). This will sort of force your opponent to come to you (your shooting is not the best but good for it's points cost and whatever you hit of the opponent is more points per wound than whatever your opponent hits on your side) after which your charge/march blockers can delay them a bit or break up their battle line or delay them in mid-field.

E.g. it just takes one dead-on hit from a rock lobber to kill almost half of a unit of 20 SM, after which they will loose their outnumber and one or two rank bonuses, meaning that they will have a much tougher time to beat a fully ranked up unit of your orcs (though sadly they still can). Use your shooting to take out a few rank bonuses here and there or take apart one enemy unit completely, or wait til they are close and let your fanatics do this for you.

Basically my point is: do not look at the whole enemy army book and think: 'whatever they can do they can do it better than I' without building a few lists with that armybook to see for real how much of their fantastic options they can field together. E.g. when you read the O&G armybook, you can think:
OMG, O&G can field 4 spear chukka's, 2 rock lobbers, 2 doomdivers, big blocks of troops, lots of fast cav, good close combat characters, dead cheap night goblin mages, tons of FANATICS, more big blocks of troops, Chariots, a GIANT. AAAGGGHGHHH how am I ever going to defeat this list..

But you do not think that, because you know your own list.. But looking at the HE list you do tend to do this: he can NOT outshoot, move, magic and fight you all in one list as he will simply run out of points halfway through. Though I must say that giving the HE a lot of rare and special choices has been an unbalancing move, especially the rare choices, which enables them to take 4 RBT's for example..

Sorry for the long post, I just get itchy when I see people despair while they compare unit for unit their list versus another list, without taking the whole interplay of units into consideration, most important of these your deployment.

Lexy
22-02-2008, 09:47
And Lexy is not saying: tailor your army once you know what he will bring, but he is just giving couter arguments to your rant on HE being better in every phase (right Lexy?)..

Sorry for the long post, I just get itchy when I see people despair while they compare unit for unit their list versus another list, without taking the whole interplay of units into consideration, most important of these your deployment.

Both I agree with ( especially with the first because it's exactly what I think:D)

Don't try to play orcs and goblins as if they are high elves.
I think that with an allround list of Orcs and goblins, you can take on high elves any day except when they have two dragons in their army.
That might be a problem.

Dranthar
22-02-2008, 09:59
And PLEASE PEOPLE stop saying an army is more manouverable / can not be outmanouvered because their movement is higher.. That is plain nonsense.

Hack'a, your entire post is exactly what I was trying to say in this thread and Knightimes last thread. I couldn't agree with you more.

Knightime;

1. Stop trying to play your O&G army like a Chaos army and start using it like the massive horde of sacrificial units they're supposed to be.

2. High elves can be pretty good at any given phase of the game, but they are so expensive that they'll only be decent at 1-2 of those phases. O&G are cheap enough to be decent at all phases of the game.

3. O&G are almost always more maneuverable than High elves, not because of higher movement, but because having such a huge number of cheap units makes flanking the enemy much easier.


A favorite anecdote of mine is when I decided to throw together a mostly-orc army list on paper. I took everything I wanted - 4 big blocks of orcs, a unit of black orcs, BSB, artillery, goblins, snotlings, warboss, fast cavalry and chariots. I finished the list and looked over it. It was massive. Thinking that I've probably gone well over the 2000pt limit (probably closer to 2500) I started calculating the total....1900pts. :wtf: :D

Moral of the story - O&G units are cheap enough to build an army that can do everything, with points left over. ;)

Braad
22-02-2008, 10:07
Like beating your head up against a brick wall :eyebrows:

I wouldn't say that. There is more to a game then just being more powerful. You still got more units, more models per unit (if you do it right). They can totally annihilate one of your units, but you (should) have another one ready! You're artillery can be better. Okey, they have those repeater bolt throwers, but indeed, a nice rock in the middle of those pesky elves, of a doom diver right across their fancy helmets should do a bit of harm.

Just never forget that O&G is meant to be a horde army. They do indeed excel, but they also are twice as expensive! (Don't really know the point cost of the various HE...)

And in this case, spears might be useful. Let them charge (through a barrage of fanatics, throw some nets in the meantime maybe) and don't loose all your attacks on the charge due to your second rank. Maybe it would be wise to field a frontage of 6, for a couple of extra attacks.

It could be that, because you got lots of experience with sixth edition, that your a bit stuck on the tactics you used back then, while you really need something different now?
Just trying to include a bit self-reflection here, that's always very important.

Urgat
22-02-2008, 10:19
Yep, preparing for an HE army unexpectedly is very difficult...
Wow, it really is a Revelation isn't it!
This is EXACTLY my point!
They win in every phase....

okiiiie, ready, go!


You can't charge them - you lose...

Why? They remain elves, they're weedy. The comments I gave about the squigs doesn't apply to the rest of your army. If you forget about the stupid SW, elves do not hit hard. Wait, even SW do not hit SO hard. S5, that's -2 to the save. Heck, even a common gob will still have a point of save left against them if sporting a hand weapon and shield. Ok, that's still an aweful amount of S5 hits, but you get my point, it was just for illustration. For the rest, I WIDELY disagree with the non-usefulness of spears.
Charging with RnF units is useless against HE, right? Let them charge (with spears), just wait for them, play "dwarf".
They don't have a better shooting phase compared to you, this is just not true. A few bowmen, and repeater bolt throwers that will remove a few gobs or orcs a turn, omg.

Stand there, far away, and look at them running at you while dropping rocks and gobs and spears and arrows on their pretty faces. They will never even reach half the amount of stuff you can thjrow at them from affar, and every single kill will count, while you will (should) not care about what he kills with his own ranged weapons.

Forget about using the waaagh. What's the point? You want to charge? What for? Tell me, what for, for Mork's sake? No, Mork does not want that, he wants a good fight, not uselessly spilt greenskin blood.

Let them charge (through fanatics, maybe? that'll get you one more shooting phase at point blank range) against 7 wide ranks of night gobs with spears and netters, or common gobs with hand weapons and shields. Let's see how well the elves get out of that, with no spear bonus. Keep your charriots behind, and move them near the unit that is going to gloriously sacrify itself against the swordmasters. If you cannot help it, just let them die. Or hit them hard with river trolls. 4 river trolls own a unit of 10 swordmasters.


You can't bring magic - they have more and better of it...
Better, dunno, more, maybe, but you can easily cancel it out (staff of sneaky stealin+staff of sorcery+dispell scrolls).


You can't shoot them - They are better at it...
Better, yeah. So they kill a handful of gobs a turn. But you got more, so you kill the same numbers of elves a turn. Who got hurt more?


You can't out outmaneuver them - They are faster...

My wolves, spiders, charriots, giants and trolls do not agree with you.


When I say that you can't - I really mean that HE player has you outmatched in the category... Whatever you have, the Elves have it and better..
Excepted they're frail as glass, and every single of these dudes dead is worth 10 of your gobs. You outnumber them like hell, and you're tougher.


And the real kicker to it is that Gobbo's and Night Gobbo's FEAR the elves..
Why yeah, that's true, it sucks, but you gotta live with it, and take large units of gobs.

Now, tell me how to beat these guys... This is exactly what this thread is all about...

That's what people have been doing, I believe. Well, at least, I tried in this post.
Good luck!

knightime98
22-02-2008, 11:43
It could be that, because you got lots of experience with sixth edition, that your a bit stuck on the tactics you used back then, while you really need something different now?
Just trying to include a bit self-reflection here, that's always very important.

This is more my problem than anything else... This is much closer to the truth than anything else in the thread. I was very dependent on the combo-stomp...
Meaning that I was able to use magic (Mork Sav Uz - rerolls) with shooting, chariots (2 for 1 wolf chariots) and so on..

Typically, I could get a couple rerolls a turn. Did I only get 1 impact hit with that Chariot - no, no I didn't (reroll get a 4).. Did I hit with that bolt thrower and fail to wound on a 2 (reroll get a 3)... no no I didn't.... Did I fail to run down that 500 pt unit because I got a 5 on pursuit (reroll the 1 get a 4) no, no I didn't..
Did I get a miscast in the magic phase.. No, No I didn't (Buzzgob's reroll)...

I had coupled combo's that were very great.. My favorite was Gork's Warpath which continued on a 4+.. Oh, did I get a 1 and you get to pick something of mine... No, no you don't reroll get a 4.. Now, I get to continue stomping on your line...

Black Orcs in 6th allowed rerolls of Animosity within 6".. Now you take wounds if you are in a unit...

This is what I mean by nerfing the Orc and Gobbo's.. They gave them a COMPLETE facelift.. The likes of which I have not been able to grasp...
This is what is troubling me.. They use to be able to fight and hit 'Ard.. Now, you wait for them to come to you??? How unfluffy is that!!

On the back hand, I have been reading every post you guys have been putting up and trying to figure out what it is that you are talking about...

I've got the models - 6000 pts - easily..

Changing the tactics is a very foreign idea to me... I got the orcs because you could - just get'em... It Worked well in 6th edition... 7th edition you got to play hide in seek??? If that's not backwards what is... Yet, here we are hiding from elves?? I will admit in 6th edition - it was reversed - big time. I owned all the elves - hands down... Now, the tables have turned.. I would have settled for something just equal.. They took a weight off the Orcs balance and placed it on the High Elves side.. In turn unbalancing both sides... This is what kills me...

Now, for most of you - you say that I am pessimistic - I agree. It is because I am not use to High Elves kicking me around like a rag doll.. It's just that it has NEVER happened ever! ever! Now it looks like it's a routine day on the field for them...

It is my belief that GW, was lacking in sales with High Elves.. They had to make them better... They did ever better than better they moved them to best... For now, until the next army release.. It gets worse as the edition progresses.. They started with O+G, Empire, Ogre Kingdoms, Dwarves and such... Now, it's VC and High Elves....

Moving along, your posts of fast cav, outnumbering, march blocking, baiting units, fanatics, and Horde numbers have not gone unheeded. I believe that list, I used was points heavy in Characters... Taking more shooting is a must... The fact they are more points per model.. Let them come to you..
Move the spider riders on the flanks - hide them in woods, give them bows, shoot them.. and so on.. Get the spirit totem and a wizard as a scroll cady..
I'm putting together a list to work it out. But this is not the play style that I'm use to at all... I honestly believe and can say that for my play style they have really put a 'dent in my style' big time..

Some thing like this might work
Units - Numbers - Type
2x - 20 Night Gobbos - nets, no command, hw, shield, 2x fanatics (~145 pts)
1x - 20 Night Gobbos - nets, bows, 2x fanatics (~145 pts)
2x - 5 Spider Riders - musician, bows (~76 pts)
2x - 5 Wolf Riders - musician, bows (~71pts)
2x - 2 snotling bases (40pts)
4x - Bolt Throwers (35pts)
2x - Rock Lobbers(~70pts)
2x - Doom Diver(~80pts)
2x - 10 Orc Arrer Boyz (~60 pts)
1x - 25 Orc Boyz - cmd, choppa, shield (~180 pts)
1x - 25 Orc Boyz - cmd, spears, shield (~230 pts)
1x - 25 Orc Boyz - cmd, 2x choppa (~205 pts)
1x - Black Orc Warboss on Boar, hvy arm, enchanted shield,Bst bss at (235)
1x - Black Orc Boss - BSB, Spirit Totem, Boar, hvy arm, (~180 pts)
1x - Night Goblin Shaman - lvl 1, 2x dispel scroll (~100 pts)

Equals about 2499 points... Need to shave 500 points.. Now, this is the stuff all you guys are talking about.. Take this, take that, have MSU and big blocks.. and note NO chariots as specials are taken for shooting...

Shamfrit
22-02-2008, 11:55
Knight, that list is considerably more versatile and better in many ways. I still feel having 3/4 units with 3/4 different equipment options will make it harder for the right weapon match up. Either take the Boyz with the same gear, which I recomenned the Choppa/Shield, or make sure you deploy the Spears against the right unit and so on.

I would drop two Spear Chukkas, yes, you've been advised to take more shooting, but that's a little too much, especially since Lobbers and Divers are considerably more accurate percentage wise, and very much stronger. That's 70 points, you could possible get away with 2 Lobbers, 2 Divers, which is 140 points off.

You character line up is ALOT stronger and more versatile than the Savage Orc inclusion, but I think you should take a Lvl 2. Shaman, because after all, if you roll a Double 6, it doesn't matter how much magic he out powers you but, you get the spell off regardless.

Overall, much stronger, I completely emphasise with you about not being able to change tactics, it winds me up Warhammer does, especially since certain units in armies I use are more or less useless because of 7th Edition Rules (Skaven Weapon Teams...)

But then, wouldn't you rather lose for a year straight, learn everything going, then find a tactics that suddenly works and you turn into Da Best Boss At Pretty Much Everything? The pay off will be worth it, so keep at it ;)

Lexy
22-02-2008, 12:55
Ah, I'm beginning to understand now.
So it's not really that OnG is nerfed ( I think they are the most balanced of all armys) but you can't play the army anymore like you used to.

Good news:
Actually you pretty much can.
The only thing you need to adjust is use a few bait units to make the enemy charge them or the enemy will linger in an awkward place.

Behind the bait line there will be your normal blocks.

Let me give you an example of actually ogres, but the idea is pretty much the same:
8 trappers are staning one inch in front of a big unit of bret knights.
Now the knights can do three things:
- wait (we are talking minimum of 500 points waiting for 48 points)
- move around the trappers ( they will probably end up next to the trappers, where they can do the trick again)
- charge the trappers ( who will flee and because of that are dead, but gives a unit of ironguts an excellent opportunity to return the favour)

We are talking about 200 points giving a unit of 500 points a seriuos dilemma.

BTW, don't you think that the reroll and warpath combination is the hardest combination in magic there is in damage? That combination is just too much.

warlord hack'a
22-02-2008, 13:00
there you go, that's a gunline allright ;-). If you need to get rid of 500 points I would consider dropping some artillery, just becuase you will be hard pressed ot find place on the table where they will all be effective most of the game (especially if you end up without hill in your deployment).

Also, for combat (nets) oriented night gobbo's you are better off with 30 minimum, they need the outnumber bonus..

man, the hours I spent agonizing over chariots versus artillery (still am..), just read Avian's site his articles on artillery about the different roles and why to take them (in short: rocks versus infantry, bolts versus monsters and knight flanks, doomdivers versus skirmishers, knights and other small units, this shows once again the flexibility of the O&G force: you have three different options for artillery and all three do distinctly different things).

I like spears on my fast cav just because S4 is so much better than S3, just in case you do end up charging (e.g. warmachine crew that will still have a 5+ or 6+ armour save).

If you decide to keep all your artillery and really go gunline, then keep the orc arrer boyz. Otherwise, drop them as pointswise they are not good (or at least put them together in one unit so that when you reform you at leasdt have a normal T4 choppa armed 20 strong unit of orcs)

Now just play with whatever 2000 point list you end up with and get used to throwing away snot units and fleeing away with your fast cav. Snot unit are great for keeping your battle in one line as when your units behind them fail animoisity they can only move 1/2 inch before running into the snot unit in front (who does not take animosity tests nor fear or terror tests, so they are reliable!)

p.s. yes indeed versus HE hiding and waiting is better than charging head-on and yes this is strange but does not have to do with making the O&G weaker, but with making the HE a lot stronger.. So yes, versus them you need to change your tactics. Versus other armies, go ahead and charge head on (maybe you have a bit too much artillery for when you do not face HE..)

Storak
22-02-2008, 14:42
i ll keep this short:

1. those definitions of maneuverability are stretching the term. the claim that O&G are better on this field than elves is absurd.
O&G are forced to deploy around their general. apart from a giant, basically no useful unit can operate outside of this circle, particularly against elves.
basically no (worthy) orcish unit has the capacity to seriously redeploy during battle. factoring in animosity, O&G aren t much faster than dwarfs.

2. orcs had massive problems in the past, but some tools to get around them (black orc +6" jump to mind). they got even MORE unreliable.

3. the new "list" is 500 points too big. it will look different if you drop those. and it doesn t have max number of characters, which i don t think is a clever idea with O&G.

4. a competitive elvish list will shredder the 2000 points list that you get by shrinking that list.

5. a LOT of your tactics tend to DEPEND on a lucky hit by your single rock lobber on a unit, that a competitive HE list will not even include. and the HE player has the perfect tools to handle that lobber.

6. an orcish gun line will do VERY badly, facing real (cannon) gun lines...

7. a look at the warhammer fantasy finals brings back the necessary dose of reality, that this discussion is missing. HE won. best O&G army coming in at 38...

http://warhammer.org.uk/PhP/viewtopic.php?t=38542

warlord hack'a
22-02-2008, 15:58
Okay, I will try to keep it short as well, though short apparently means 'blunt, one sided and without nuances'.

1) the only units in WH that are truly manouverable are: flyers, skirmishers, fast cav, single models, chariots and monsters. All other units can not truly be considered 'manouverable' and certainly the difference between M4 and M5 infantry is very small. O&G are not forced to deploy around their general, only those units that are needed in close combat probably are. As a lot of O&G units are support units you can stretch your line quite wide. In contrary to elite infantry armies O&G have the luxury of a lot of mediocre CC units, so they can create quite a big area where it is modestly dangerous for the enemy to walk into, and by combining units can create smaller areas where it is very dangerous for the enemy to walk into. Elite infantry armies create much smaller zones of influence where it is very dangerous to walk into. Now when deploying the elite infantry guy/girl must make sure that his units are placed so that they have a good chance of trapping something worthwhile in their zones of influence. This is where deployment plays an important role. Take the not so uncommon situation of a 2000 pt force with 9 deployment choices versus 13 O&G deployment choices. That will leave the O&G player with 4 deployments after the enemy has finished. Usually a 2000 point O&G force will have 3-4 good CC units, so these can be placed AFTER the entire enemy force is deployed. This means that either the enemy needs to spread out it's elite units, naturally creating 'gaps' in his lines (either real gaps or parts that are thinner/easier to punch through/do not form a close combat threat) or put them closer together to form a solid front and run the risk of facing only enemy units that will not win them their points back. Now if your swordmasters are content at being held up by my fast cav, then do not mind facing a few fanatics, being redirected to the side by an angled snot block and then finally charge a unit of night gobbo's then that is fine by me. But in the meantime I will shoot that unit up a bit and let my orcs take care of your T3 lightly armoured pansies.
So yes, the swordmasters have M5, but if they are on the wrong side of the field to hit the enemy where it hurts then M5 needed to cross 30" of table is just as good as M4 needing to cross 24", and the latter does not have to expose it's flank to the whole enemy battle line. You mention redeploying, but the nice thing is, when you have deployment choices to spare, you do not need to REdeploy, deploying once is enough.

2) True, and where can you find another trooper with S4, T4 and a 4+ save for 6 points? I did not say O&G got stronger with the new book, they did not. I also think that HE did get stronger (about time), perhaps even a bit too strong. These things however are beside the point, because this does not mean that O&G are too weak to win or HE are too strong too lose. So we are discussing tactics on how to tackle HE with O&G using an armylist that can also face off against other enemy armies.

3) Old news, knighttime mentions that already, he just wants to hear what to take from this list. Well, scrapping 220 points of artillery is a start and then toning some things down a bit further..

4) Please give a complete 2000 point 'competitive elvish list' that can take all comers (so not tailored versus O&G) that can 'shredder' this 2000 point O&G list. Please also let us know besides this list how you plan to do this, what will your deployment look like, what will be your PLAN (scary word?).

5) None of 'our' tactics depend on a lucky hit by a rock lobber. It is just that two bolt throwers, one rock lobber and one doomdiver are bound to hit something sooner or later (for mathematical background please go to the empire website, someone wrote a very good article on empire warmachines which you can in part also apply to rock lobbers and bolt throwers). And even if the rock lobber misses, there is fast cav blockers, snot redirecters, fanatics and some other options only revealed to the initiated (;-)).

What are the perfect tools to handle a rock lobber? Eagles (more useful as fanatics pullers and more dangerous as march blockers)? Magic (is a threat to anything and the T7machine can absorb a lot of S4 hits)?

6) Cannon are good at sniping enemy warmachines, so yes, an O&G gunline would suffer against cannon because of this. But against a normal rank and file unit 3 goblin spear chukkas (who together cost 5 points more than a great cannon) dish out a lot more damage with higher accuracy, do the math..

7) refer to an earlier and very long post on the subject of tournament results and what they say about how good an army is. Also see my point 2 above.

Oops, did not give a short reply, but then again I do not like being blunt, one-sided without nuances.

warlord hack'a
22-02-2008, 16:17
edit to point 1 above: he could also go MSU, in which case he can spread out his line and get a lot of deployment choices as well. but 10 swordmasters (with standard and musician = 168 points) will have problems with fully ranked up enemy units (e.g. 23 orcs with choppa shield, FC = 168 points) (in the matchup between brackets the average outcome will be +3 CR due to kills for the SM, which means the combat is a draw and in the next round the orcs will be worse off as they lose their +1 S, but then again, possibly balanced by the elves losing their +1 rank bonus) Also, a standard elf only has ld 8, and three elves die very easily to shooting with only T3 and 5+ save and then the elves have a chance of 1/3.6 of turning and running.

But O&G have their weaknesses as well, which have been pointed out more than once. Only elves (and all other armies) have weaknesses as well, though some are more privileged than others.

Storak
22-02-2008, 17:20
1. my answers are short, because i currently lack time. sorry.

2. a good start for an overall competitive list is the discussion i linked to. there are several army lists in there.

3. the winning HE army only has 8 deployment choices. so it shopuld be easy to outmanouver his dragon....

4. bolt throwers obviously are very good. one of them still will only kill 2 SMs over 3 turns...

5. the orc will have S4 only during turn 1 of combat and he has animosity...

warlord hack'a
22-02-2008, 20:03
1) accepted
2) not a satisfying answer as it lacks explanation on the tactics you would use with this list
3) Dragons fly, they are a manouverable unit as mentioned in my list of manouverable units. Wherever you put it, it can go anywhere else without much problems. But bolt thowers can hurt a dragon as can cannon balls, rocks and other heavy things
4) which is why you do not use a bolt thrower optimally when you fire at small infantry units, for that purpose you have doomdivers.. Bolt throwers are for fully ranked up units and for monsters. Also, (for those who love a point for point comparison, which I do not) 2 swordmasters are 30 points, the chukka is 35. And then we have 3 more rounds of shooting to go!
5) yep, which is why he only costs 6 points. The better the trooper, the more it costs.

knightime98
25-02-2008, 05:48
So, I replayed the High Elf player who kept the same exact list.
I brought this time,
20x Night Gobbos, nets, no command, hw, shield, 2x fanatics
20x Night Gobbos, nets, no command, hw, shield, 2x fanatics
25x Orcs, command, shield, spears
23x Orcs, command, shield, spears
23x Orcs, command, shield, spears
2x Snot Bases
2x Snot Bases
2x Rock Lobber
4x Bolt Thrower
5x Spider riders, musician, bows
5x Spider riders, musician, bows
5x Wolf Riders, musician, bows
1x Black Orc Warboss, General, Big Ed's kicking boots, Boar, Enchanted Shield, Heavy Armor
1x Black Orc Big Boss, BSB, Boar, Heavy Armor, Morks Spirit Totem
1x Night Goblin Shaman, 2 lvl, 2x dispel scroll

The result this game was only marginally better. Instead of a complete massacre, I lost by 1,000 points. I did not engage the swordmasters at all. The snotlings with the bait tactic did work well. They were able to get behind a unit of silver helms who fled and because they are unit strength 6 were destroyed. The Spider Riders and Wolf Riders were ineffectual. The woods were randomly placed (by dice rolls 5d6 and scatter from center of board) in my deployment zone near the middle of the board and slightly to the right. Only one Rock lobber did anything the entire game - My guesses were spot on in the center of the units 8 out of 10 times... 7 of the 10 scattered off 6 inches that way to nothing 10 inches that way to nothing... The last one hit the Swordmasters spot on and got 5 totals and 11 partials, killed 8 swordmasters.. I shot the bolt throwers 16 times or so and wounded a chariot 2 times and wounded the eagle 2 times and that was it... I had 0 for 8 hits on 4+ with the bolt throwers.. Of course when I hit the first one on shot 9 I rolled a 1 to wound.. Completely ineffectual totally...
The unit of orcs with the general in it was (on my part very gratuitously, and I mean very gratuitous in allowing one chariot to charge).. I threw a complaint but a bystander agreed with my opponent (the bystander was biased, and I am not just saying it to help my case - he is collecting High Elves and wants to see them win) that the chariot could complete its charge.. That unit was also charged by another chariot in the flank and to the front with silver helms. The flanking chariot just made it's charge by 1/2 inch - I thought it was out with it's wheel to get around another of his units... So, 2 chariots and silver helms did the generals unit in. The BSB got his chance with the Silver Helms next after chasing off a single chariot. However, the High Elf player had Spear Elves flank them on their turn before the pursuing Orcs could get their turn to attack. It was ugly.. The snotlings on that side kept the Swordmasters out of the picture completely.. The biggest problem was an inconsistent line. The animosity screwed everything up.. The wolf riders could have gotten to the bolt throwers but they squabbled on turn 2 (about 10" away from Silver Helms - both units of them - the eagle - and a Chariot).. Go figure... The night gobbo's one unit engaged 2 silverhelms - one destroyed by a fanantic - the other was pursued and caught.. I had to keep one unit of Gobbo's back so the eagle wouldn't let them get released....
My magic was sucktacular - I got the most useless spells for the gobbo shaman - Mork wants ya and the magic missle spell.. not by choice but what I rolled. I made him roll twice for iniative but he did not blow either one.

Overall synopsis - Shooting sucked, combat was only slightly better, and the fast cav - spider riders didn't do anything... I got kicked to the curb AGAIN...

My opponent and his friendly bystander said to take 4 units of 20 night gobbos with 12 fanatics, 4 chariots, 4 units of 20 orcs (with command, choppa, shield, light armor), to beat high elves,. I disagreed as I thought that would be cheesy and now you are playing to only beat them and not all comers (as one poster had mentioned)....

Dranthar
25-02-2008, 07:27
From the sounds of it, your loss was more the result of poor luck than anything else. There were enemy charges that just snuck in, probably the worst roll possible for your magic and your shooting sounds as though your bolt throwers forgot to bring any bolts.

I'm also surprised your generals unit (who should by all rights be sitting in the centre of your battle line) got charged by no less than 2 chariots and some silver helms. As you said, it was a charge you didn't think would make it but I guess you could look at ways to avoid your opponent bringing that much to bear on a single unit (unless it's snotlings). By all rights and with so many units, it should be you who's threatening flanks, not him. ;)

On the plus side, it sound like other elements of your army performed extremely well, in particular the snotlings. 80pts of snotlings managing to keep 200+pts of swordmasters out of the battle is a phenomenal result as far as I'm concerned. :D

Your list looks alright. My only suggestions would be to cut the fat, specifically the Lvl on the shaman, the spears on the orcs, 2 bolt throwers and a rock lobba, in exchange for a doom diver and something else, particularly from your special choices (chariots?!).

But like I said, I think luck was what lost you the game, not your list. Keep it up, I'd say your at least on the right track.

warlord hack'a
25-02-2008, 08:23
indeed, luck was not with you (or not even luck, just averag would have been good enough). I would suggest getting one or 2 chariots as they protect your battle line very well by projecting a 14 or 18 inch threatzone to the front (that is not subject to animosity), which helps to keep the enemy at bay.

So e.g. get a doomdiver, drop a rock lobber and get a boar chariot. You can get some points by removing the lvl from your shaman as Dranthar says and removing the spears from the orcs (giving them shields in my opinion is better, spears pay themselves off only on svg orcs).

Also, it sounds like your enemy likes to stick at exactly 18" and then complain when he does not make it. Make sure he does not move before he measures, inches are inches and when in doubt, roll a dice (as for the chariot in your flanks, chariots get a free pivot during their charge, so no need to measure wheel distance as they do not wheel).

One last remark on animosity, only units of 5 or more models have to test, so as soon as one spiderriders gets shot then you have a unit of 4, so immune to animosity. This is so good that I hope the enemy shoots at my fast cav and then I hope they leave 3 or 4 and not kill off or panic the entire unit of course..

Your are definitely on the right track here, and keep the 4 bolt throwers, they will be the bane of enemy knights, dragons and other monsters!

Goldenwolf
25-02-2008, 08:33
Hacka,

A unit of 3 Spider riders counts as 6 bodies for other checks, so I am guessing that he'd still need to check animosity.

DO the Snotlings work at all? With Low leadership, being stubborn doesn't help unless they're near the general, and I'd rather have other units near the general.

knightime98
25-02-2008, 08:51
Animosity check is if you have 5 Models - Not Unit Strength 5...

Yes they did work and for a different purpose... The snotlings are not supposed to hold. In 6th edition they always held (unbreakable).. Now, they fold but you can redirect the chargers and have them expose flanks.. Something that is new to me...

BTW, stubborn is only stubborn on their own leadership... Otherwise, it is modified with your generals leadership.. Which means if you lose by 3 and your general is in range and his Ld is 9 - you would test on a 6... You are entitled to the best roll available.

warlord hack'a
25-02-2008, 09:04
Well you have here the (very understandable) confusion between Unit Strength and # models. The animosity check is based on the number of models in the unit, not it's Unit Strength. So yes, a unit of 3 spiderriders still negates enemy rank bonus when they hit them in the flank (as they are US 6) but does not suffer from animosity..

Snotlings work great as cannon fodder/marchblockers/table quarter claimers/deployment choices but especially as charge-redirecters and as tools to keep your battle line a line and not a dotted wobbly thing with holes in. They are ItP and do not suffer from animosity, so they will move where you tell them when you tell them. They are not supposed to make their ld test after they have been charged (assuming any of them survive that charge at all), they are supposed to be run down but then at least the enemy knight unit either has to pursue, which will bring them in a counter charge zone of you, or they decide to hold their ground, which will leave them in another countercharge zone. OR you just redirect them to the side to worry about later, or to shoot them up with 2 bolt throwers conveniently placed in their now exposed flank.

The aligning 'to the defender' rule can be horribly abused by these cute small snot bases.

p.s. Stubborn and general ld do not combine: you can either go for the highest ld in the stubborn unit or use the ld of the general while deducting the normal CR result.

p.p.s. My snot bases tend to be very close to my general as I prefer him not to be charged by chaos chosen knights of khorne..

kroq'gar
25-02-2008, 09:08
Chariots... lots of chariots. With basically no access to st7 chariots run amoke through elven lines.

As previously mentioned, drop the spears. You'll in all likelyhood be charging him. and the 4+ save is very good on t4 orcs, not to mention the +1st in the first round from choppas.

Put your points in characters, orcs really need them against the asf elves. Characters in chariots... ouch to the elves. Impact, whats left tries to hit, then character cruches some more.

Elves are game altering, but not unbeatable. two of my reg opponents use elves and orcs, and the elves are having some troubles.

Rocklobbers are good, but with high ld your not going to panic the elves, whereas a lucky chariot charge can break and then chase them down, destorying the unit.

Blackorcs are also worth a look in, their higher ws and armour can keep them alive. On this unit whack the add current rank bonus to the dispel pool and you can stop most of the elven casting.

EDIT: Orcs arnt a very shooting army...

warlord hack'a
25-02-2008, 11:15
sorry knightime, i see we posted exactly the same post, you type faster ;-).

Dranthar
25-02-2008, 12:12
EDIT: Orcs arnt a very shooting army...

I wouldn't say that. The artillery an O&G army can get is pretty good for the cost, and can give them a decent shooting phase for a relatively low outlay. That said, they certainly aren't much of a gunline army, although I imagine an army with nothing but artillery, shamans and fanatics would come close... ;)

Also, I'm not a fan of black orcs - you can often get two blocks of orcs (or one block, a chariot and snotlings ;) ) for the same price as a single ranked unit of black orcs. Purely from a competitive standpoint, I know which I'd prefer. :D

Storak
25-02-2008, 21:00
don t you guys think that the contradicting advice you are giving is causing some confusion?

go artillery, go chariots, no/plenty black orcs...

knight did as he was told. he went for the artillery and waited for the charge. it came and was devastating. i am not surprised.


By all rights and with so many units, it should be you who's threatening flanks, not him.

if your enemy often exposes the flanks of his cav to orcs on foot, then he s doing something wrong.

and goblin cav is THREATENED by elfish flanks, not threatening them!

knightime98
25-02-2008, 22:27
don t you guys think that the contradicting advice you are giving is causing some confusion?

go artillery, go chariots, no/plenty black orcs...

knight did as he was told. he went for the artillery and waited for the charge. it came and was devastating. i am not surprised.



if your enemy often exposes the flanks of his cav to orcs on foot, then he s doing something wrong.

and goblin cav is THREATENED by elfish flanks, not threatening them!

Wow, Storak is spot on with all of this.. Do this, don't do that..
However, most of you are just pooling together ideas of how you would play it and to each person - individually that is your playing style.. So, I have grouped all the ideas that seem to be of the most value to all players and tried them out.
Now, all the sudden - I need chariots and black orcs??? - I had chariots with my first list. Did you not read the thread on how they didn't work - they are out charged - elves have an 18" range/ boars a 14" range.. What makes you think that you are going to outcharge their chariots?
Black Orcs have been discussed and one poster just recently suggested that you could get 2 for 1 regular orcs and I agree.. Why give the elves a points sink target to shoot? So, some of you have had great ideas and other no so great... Once again, it is a matter of personal preference..

Jack of Blades
25-02-2008, 23:32
Just a small, theoretical post here: I believe the key to beating High Elves comes from outnumbering their units, locking them in combat and then simply grind them down, while obliterating their elite units such as Swordmasters with Shooting/Magic/Tarpits (Zombies, Ironbreakers etc.). You're just not going to beat them if you try to do their game, that is, having high quality units that are good at dealing out damage.

I believe Pump Wagons are highly useful against them, but I just don't know how yet. I've got the stomach feeling, though...

Keep a Goblin Big Boss on a Wolf with a Brimstone Bauble (or whatever the name was) to safeguard them from charging DPS and such. You'll want to have a Hero with S7 nearby for any chariots that might charge it, as chariots won't be worth blowing your Goblin up over, say, Dragon Princes.

Keep in mind that this post is fairly rough.

WhiteKnight
25-02-2008, 23:38
To beat high elves, I say use pump wagons like Jack of Blades said. What I used to do was have a wyvern go around and own their rear. Also, I would consider locking the high elf units up with about 1 unit of 4 snotling bases. Those guys will lock high elves in combat forever!

warlord hack'a
26-02-2008, 08:02
On the subject of Chariots, I think you need at least one in every army you field. Keep in mind that I have (as requested) given ideas on a 'face-all-comers' army and then given some tactics on how this army could be used against high elves. My 'advise army' contains 2 chariots, 2 chukka's, one rock lobber and one doom diver. You could swap one chariot for one more artillery piece (or 2 in the case of chukka's), that's up to you.

Now on how to prevent 18" chariots from charging your blocks, here are a few suggestions:
1) block the LOS of the chariot to your blocks by using fast cav or snots
2) block the charge route of the chariot to your blocks by using fast cav or snots
3) let him come and take him on with fanatics, tiranoc chariots are only T4, so S5 hits will hurt on a 3+.
4) charge him with your 18"move wolf chariot
5) take a goblin big boss on wolf with wollopa's one hit wunda and charge his chariot (down side: this guy costs almost the same as a tyranoc chariot and takes up a hero slot)
6) make sure that only one chariot can charge your block, you can most likely handle one chariot if you have the full static CR+5. It is the combined charge of two chariots or a chariot plus any other unit that is dangerous.
7) but the most important one: shoot them up. they are only T4 with 4 wounds, so it will take two succesfull bolt thrower hits to take one out.

The general idea: use fast cav or expendable units to prevent a massive all out charge form his side, try to make them reach your battle line piece by peice. O&G have the tools to do this: snot blocks and fast cav, both very cheap.

p.s. as for black orcs, I would not advise to take them as yes they are good in cc, but they are foot sloggers, you have access to plenty of foot sloggers, but not to chariots or warmachines. So the main reason I do not field BO is because they take up a special slot..

Avian
26-02-2008, 12:57
Well, I squished some High Elves yesterday, though the HE were not particularly well played.

My list:

Black Orc Warboss @ 275 pts
-Axe, Enchanted Shield, 'At, Boots, ha, boar
Black Orc BSB @ 180 pts
-ha, boar, Spirit-totem
Orc Shaman, lvl 2 @ 161 pts
-Dispel Scroll, Ring, boar
Orc Shaman, lvl 2 @ 150 pts
-Dispel Scroll, Power Stone
28 Boyz @ 198 pts
-ch, sh, fc
28 Boyz @ 226 pts
-ach, fc
30 Big 'Uns @ 385 pts
-sp, sh, fc, Butchery
2x 10 Arrerz @ 65 pts each
2x Boar Chariots @ 80 pts each
Rock Lobber @ 75 pts
-bully
2x Spear Chukkas @ 40 pts each
-bullies
Giant @ 205 pts
1 Trolls @ 40 pts
(Yes, I know the Big 'Uns are ridiculously expensive. The list was set up in a hurry and I had intended to alter it a bit before the battle, but forgot about it)

His list:

Archmage (High)
-lvl 4, item that gives Irresistible Force on any double other than 1s, unknown other stuff
Mage (High)
-lvl 2, Ring of Fury, unknown other stuff
Mage (Fire)
-lvl 2, Ring of Corin, unknown other stuff
2x 20 Spearmen
-fc, one unit had an item that gave me -1 to hit them with missile fire
20 Swordmasters
-fc, Banner of Sorcery
5 Dragon Princes
-fc, War Banner
5 Shadow Warriors
4(!) Bolt Throwers
(One guy also had the item that gave +1 on the roll to go first, but that was not necessary, as he rolled a 6 and I rolled a 1.)


Deployment - High Elves
The High Elves deployed too spread out, which is contrary to Avian's first rule of good deployment (http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/tactics/deployment.php#o_concentration). His Dragon Princes were opposite my far left, followed by one Bolt Thrower in some scrub, the Swordmasters with the level 2 High Mage. Then there was a rather wide gap before we got to the first Spearman unit with the level 4 High Mage in front of a hill with two more Bolt Throwers. Then there was a second wide gap before we got to the Shadow Warriors, second unit of Spearmen with Fire Mage and the last Bolt Thrower behind a hedge.


Deployment - Greenskins
Going from left to right I deployed one Spear Chukka on a hill, with the first unit of Arrerz next to them, followed by the Troll, the second Spear Chukka (with some problems getting good lines of sight) and the Boyz with choppas and shields, containing my Warboss and the Shaman on foot. On the other side of them were the two chariots side by side with the Rock Lobber behind them to protect it. Then, opposite his general's unit were the Boyz with two choppas, lead by the BSB and joined by the Shaman on boar. Beside that unit was the Giant, then the Big 'Uns and finally the second Arrer unit.



Turn 1 - High Elves
The elf infantry blocks and Dragon Princes move forward and inward.
In the magic phase the Arrer Boyz get hit by the Fury of Khaine (I didn't bother to dispel it as it would be more convenient for me if some were killed early on, that way hopefully if they got into combat and broke, there would be too few left to cause Panic in other units). Five Arrerz die but the Warboss keeps the rest in check. Other magic does little, I stop the Flames of the Phoenix on the BSB's unit with a Scroll but his general gets off the Curse of Arrow Attraction on them with Irrisistible Force (two 5s...).
In the shooting phase, very little damage is done thanks to the high Toughness of the greenies. One chariot loses a wound and some infantry are killed, along with the Bully and one gobbo from the Rock Lobber.
No combat.


Turn 1 - Greenskins
The Arrerz on the left march forward to prevent the Dragon Princes moving further inward and also preventing them from charging the Spear Chukka on the hill. The Warboss' unit turns a bit towards the elf elites moving up on my left while the other infantry blocks move a bit further forward. The chariots, Trolls and Giant move the furthest, getting ready to charge next turn and the Giant hoping to spread some Terror in the Archmage's unit of Spearmen.
Magic fries some Swordmasters and knocks a wound off the Archmage with the 'Itty Ring (he rolled a 1 to dispel).
Arrer Boyz can't shoot and the artillery all miss.
Still no combat.


Turn 2 - High Elves
No charges and the Spearmen pass their Terror test. The Dragon Princes try to manoeuvre around the Arrer Boyz and the other units move a bit further forward.
In the magic phase the BSB's unit is hit with an Irresistable Flames of the Phoenix (three 6s) and ten Orcs, including the Boss die. The unit passes their Panic test. Other magic gets dispelled, but I am out of Scrolls.
Shooting kills the odd Orc here and there before two Bolt Throwers fire at my Giant. All 12 shots hit and he rolls the necessary six 5s and 6s to kill him. Drat!
Still no combat.


Turn 2 - Greenskins
Big 'Uns squabble. Both chariots charge his general's unit, which flees out of range (don't ask me why there were even in range) and the Troll charges the Swordmasters with the Mage. Arrer Boyz move over to block the Dragon Princes again while the other infantry manoeuvre a bit. The Arrerz on the right move up to threaten the flank of the advancing Spearmen.
We don't try to cast any magic this turn as there are few available targets and we need to save some dice to dispel the Flames of the Phoenix, which we thankfully manage to do.
Shooting kills one Spearman on the right and the artillery (again) do no damage.
In the combat phase, the Troll survives the attacks of the Swordmasters and eats the mage. Yum yum! Thanks to the presence of the Warboss, he even passes his Break test.


Turn 3 - High Elves
Spearmen and general rally. Spearmen on the right charge my Arrerz, who flee, leaving the Spearmen with the flank nicely exposed to a charge from the Big 'Uns. Dragon Princes advance further up the opposite flank, looking for a charge on the Spear Chukka on the hill above them. Swordmasters are locked in combat and cannot move.
In the magic phase, I spend all my dispel dice early, which leaves me sadly vulnerable to the Flames of the Phoenix from the Archmage. Happily, rolling four dice he manages to miscast, going down a level and losing that dreadful spell. And there was much rejoicing in the greenskin camp!
Shooting concentrates on the BSB's unit, killing seven Orcs, but again the Panic test is passed.
In the combat phase, the Troll is unsurprisingly killed.


Turn 3 - Greenskins
No squabbling. Chariots charge the Arcmage's unit again and this time the elves hold. The other unit of spearmen who get charged by the Big 'Uns do not, but flee out of range. Arrerz on the right rally and Arrerz on the left have more fun bothering the Dragon Princes. In the depleted Boyz block in the centre, the BSB and Shaman decide that it is time to abandon the sinking ship, and ride off on their boars, the BSB to join the Warboss' unit (which has to expand frontage to accomodate all the models who want to stand in the front rank) while the Shaman joins the Rock Lobber. The Boyz move up to threaten the flank of the Swordmasters (a bluff since a charge would be suicidal).
In the magic phase nothing much happens.
In the shooting phase, the Spear Chukka on the hill finally manage to skewer a Dragon Prince.
In the combat phase, the chariots kill 8 elves with impact hits. The elves then do one wound on the wounded chariot and the chariots kill the Archmage and another elf. The elves lose by a lot, break and are run down. Annoyingly the chariots pursue so far that they can no longer see the Bolt Throwers on the hill beside them.
The battle has now swung decisively in favour of the greenskins.


Turn 4 - High Elves
Still no charges. The Dragon Princes are at least definitely out of range of the Arrerz and the Spearmen who fled the Big 'Uns rally to face the oncoming Orcs. Swordmasters move to face the Warboss' unit.
With one surviving mage, the magic of the High Elves are easily dispelled.
In the shooting phase the wounded chariot loses yet another wound and has one left. The rest of the High Elf shooting again concentrates (for some reason) on the depleted Boyz block, killing three more, leaving six Orcs alive and unpaniced.
No combat.


Turn 4 - Greenskins
Reckoning that with two fighter characters, more ranks, more guys and more banners, his unit can take the Swordmasters, the Warboss declares a charge. On the right flank, the Big 'Uns move up towards the Spearmen, being out of range for a charge. The Arrerz on the right make their way through the scrub while those on the left form up to face the flank of the Dragon Princes (I had a plan but in hindsight it was very stupid and I should just have left them facing in any other direction). The chariots move around to face the Bolt Throwers.
In the magic phase, the Shaman with the Rock Lobber casts Gaze of Mork on the Spearmen. The dispel attempt fails, but the elves are out of range anyway. The the Shaman with the Warboss pulls out his Power Stone (actually it was a Power Snotling) and casts Waaagh! which the High Elves cannot dispel! The chariots charge the Bolt Throwers, the Big 'Uns charge the Spearmen and the Arrerz charge the Dragon Princes. Oh, and all the artillery crew run around a bit.
In the combat phase, the chariots start by running over the elf crewmen. The Big 'Uns decide to go for spears and use the Banner, reckoning the combat will last more than one turn and still wanting to make a dent in the elves. The spearmen strike first and kill one Orc (the only Big 'Uns killed in the entire game), while the Big 'Uns kill the last mage and some other elves, winning the combat comfortably. The elves break and are run down, with the Big 'Uns stomping closer to the Bolt Thrower behind the hedge. In the centre, the Warboss bellows a challenge which will reduce the number of attacks on vulnerable Boyz no matter how it turns out. The Swordmaster champion declines and hides in the rear. The Swordmaster able to attack the Shaman does 1 wound on him, while the other elves kill 4 Boyz. Then my Warboss, BSB and Boss strike back, booting eight or nine elves to death. The Swordmasters break, but manage to outrun the Orcs. Then, disastrously, the Arrer Boyz on the flank break and run, despite killing a knight, which lets the Dragon Princes pursue right up to the flank of the Warboss' unit. D'oh! Stupid!


Turn 5 - High Elves
Three remaining Dragon Princes charge the flank of the Warboss' unit, where the only character able to fight is the Shaman. The Shadow Warriors move for the first time in the battle, getting out of the charge path of the Big 'Uns and closer to the chariots and depleted Boyz in the centre. Swordmasters rally (drat!).
No magic as all mages are dead.
Shooting at the Shaman and two gobbo crewmen who recently left the Rock Lobber kills one goblin but the other greenskins are not wounded by the hits. The wounded chariot shrugs of the arrows launched at it and survives at 1 wound.
In the combat phase, several Boyz are killed by the Dragon Princes and despite the Warboss and BSB being in the unit, they break and are run down. Damn, damn, damn! Curse those Arrer Boyz!


Turn 5 - Greenskins
The undamaged chariot charges the Shadow Warriors, who have conveniently moved into range. As they would flee into the Big 'Uns, they hold. The Big 'Uns move further towards the Bolt Thrower on my right and the six remaining Boyz turn to face the Dragon Princes, as does the damaged chariot. The war machine crew return to their tasks, apart from the crew of one Spear Chukka, who ran to far in turn 4.
Magic kills the Dragon Prince standard bearer, but the other two elves don't flee.
No shooting as the war machine crews have all moved.
In the combat phase, the chariot squishes the Shadow Warriors.


Turn 6 - High Elves
The two remaining Dragon Princes charges the Boyz who decide not to flee as they are too few to rally. Swordmasters move a bit backwards to present a less easy target for the now operative greenskin artillery.
No magic.
In the shooting phase, the damaged chariot is finally destroyed. A volley of bolts at the Rock Lobber wounds the Shaman but again the super-tough goblin crewman shrugs off the hit on him and prepares to fire in his next turn.
In the combat phase, the Dragon Princes only kill a single Orc and the three Boyz able to attack kill both remaining knights, to much hilarity!


Turn 6 - Greenskins
The Big 'Uns on the right charges the Bolt Thrower there. Nothing else bothers to move as this is the last turn.
Magic kills one Swordmaster but annoyingly their champion survives two 'Eadbutts. Bah!
Shooting also fails to hit the Swordmasters, unsurprisingly considering how well the artillery has done in the battle.
The combat phase is brief and consists of the Big 'Uns jumping all over the elf crew, leaving eight Swordmaster and the crew of the fourth Bolt Thrower the only High Elves alive.


So there you have it. It was a quite easy win and only the stupid move with the Arrerz prior to the Waaagh! ruined things somewhat. I was quite surprised at how small the High Elf force was and the fact that he went without a single fighter character, especially since I believe I got more out of my magic than he got out of his, for less points spent. But then I made a lot of effort to keep my Shamans alive and operational. Most of my units did their stuff and only the artillery was disappointing, but there is not a lot you can do about bad dice rolls. And my Giant got killed by lucky shooting again.

knightime98
27-02-2008, 06:45
What points were you playing.. You have 2265 points for that list?
Secondly, it looks like as you have said - you were playing a newbie..
With all that magic and to no avail? Waste of points..
My opponent if he took magic would really make it count...
The book of Hoeth is 100 points.. Really it is a waste of points unless it is a monstrous game over 5000 points a side atleast... in my opinion...
Also, it looked like you outnumbered him but not by a large margin as some people have suggested..
Your shooting was just a horrible as mine was.. But your magic reigned supreme getting Waagh off.. But, what I want to know is why did you charge? Perhaps getting into a flank as was mentioned perhaps that is the only benefit.. My opponent protects his flanks very very well. It's nearly impossible to exploit them...
This guy looks like he handed you the game on a silver platter and rang a bell saying Come get dinner!

warlord hack'a
27-02-2008, 09:23
no it does not look like that at all. It is just that this HE opponentn had only one unit with high move, the dragon princes, who then got hindered by the arrer boyz (I wonder why the DP did not simply charge the arrer boyz earlier on, most likely because this would have brought them in range of a counter charge from an orc block). This opponent went magic heavy without long ranged defense in the form of fast cav, knights or chariots and that, as you can see, is a fatal combination as Avian succesfully assasinated two mages in close combat early on.

Also, look at deployment choices, Avian's list has 11, the elves have 7. That is 4 more for the orcs (now refer to my earlier post saying that 4 employment choices more than your opponent is what you should be aiming for at the least). And it was Avian's luck that the elf force was so small as his force was rather elite.

As for your question 'why charge'. Well, do the math, I did for HE spearmen versus choppa shield orcs in an earlier post and it was not bad. Just because SM in combination with ASF are mean does not mean that all HE units should not be charged..

Avian
27-02-2008, 09:56
But, what I want to know is why did you charge?
Why not charge? Charging worked great each and every time (apart from the one with the Arrerz where I don't know what I was thinking of), despite him attacking first.



(I wonder why the DP did not simply charge the arrer boyz earlier on, most likely because this would have brought them in range of a counter charge from an orc block).
Yup, that's it exactly. Charging would have just placed him in a very bad position and lost him the Dragon Princes in exchange for a unit of Arrer Boyz.

warlord hack'a
27-02-2008, 10:16
oh yes and thanks for the nice battle report.

Taky
27-02-2008, 10:36
realy nice battle report i like it

Avian
27-02-2008, 13:45
Yer welcome. Usually I avoid obviously stupid moves, though. Honest! ;)

warlord hack'a
27-02-2008, 15:12
unless they LOOK stupid but are not. And of course to keep letting people fall into the trap of your "obviously" stupid move you sometimes have to make a move that really is stupid. So I guess you were just thinking about long term tactics when you charged those orc arrer boyz into the elite elven cav..

In regard to the arrer boyz, were they actually effective shooting anything? I have a few models from the 5th (or 6th) edition set lying around, have not even glued their heads on yet..

Avian
27-02-2008, 15:48
In regard to the arrer boyz, were they actually effective shooting anything? I have a few models from the 5th (or 6th) edition set lying around, have not even glued their heads on yet..
It is probably not obvious to people, but the point of Arrer Boyz is not really to shoot things. Occasionally they do, but mainly they are a close support unit that happens to have an unimpressive missile weapon they use once or twice during a battle.

Storak
27-02-2008, 22:01
Also, look at deployment choices, Avian's list has 11, the elves have 7. That is 4 more for the orcs (now refer to my earlier post saying that 4 employment choices more than your opponent is what you should be aiming for at the least). And it was Avian's luck that the elf force was so small as his force was rather elite.

Avian said that his opponent spread out his deployment.
what options do you think an orc player has against this army, when he deploys his army close together in front of the hill that contains his artillery?

i am not sure, how you set up a situation in which the knights can be destroyed by orcish infantry, when charging the archers. would you mind to elaborate Avian? flank shooting bolt thrower?

i have to admit that i really miss real cav in the current orc army.
if those 150 points knights (elves or empire) are toying with 60 points of "screen" and 140 points of orcs, then it might NOT be you, who is binding enemy troops...

BigbyWolf
27-02-2008, 22:16
Not sure if anyone's posted these points yet, but I'd suggest in-expensive units of foot troops, that way his shooting is reduced (in the way that he'll kill less points), chariots are also useful, but I'd say definately take 4 pump wagons (in a 2k game) or i u want something (a little) less random, take 2 pumps and a unit of trolls. Regeneration is definately useful against ASF, the only thing better is impact hits...and you could potentially have 4 gob chariots and 4 pump wagons- thats a potential 12d6+4 S4/5 impact hits (although not on the same unit...unless he's using very long single ranked units...).

Mazdug
27-02-2008, 22:40
It is probably not obvious to people, but the point of Arrer Boyz is not really to shoot things. Occasionally they do, but mainly they are a close support unit that happens to have an unimpressive missile weapon they use once or twice during a battle.

Wouldn't regular orc boyz do better in that roll, at a point less per model? Or is there a psychological aspect to the arrer boyz? I've got a ton of 'em unassembled (two starter boxes worth I think), but I have been ignoring them in favor of assembling an ever growing number of choppa waving loonies.

I've been thinking about using small units of savage orcs as support units a bit lately, but I haven't the models to try it out yet. I was thinking that a Staggered line with big units of boys and small units of savages might work fairly well. Something like this.
B = Boys
S= Savage Boys

BBBBBB BBBBBB BBBBBB
BBBBBB BBBBBB BBBBBB
BBBBBB BBBBBB BBBBBB
BBBBBB SSSSS BBBBBB SSSSS BBBBBB
BBBBBB SSSSS BBBBBB SSSSS BBBBBB

Has anyone tried this?

Dranthar
28-02-2008, 00:01
Wouldn't regular orc boyz do better in that roll, at a point less per model? Or is there a psychological aspect to the arrer boyz?

I suspect it's partly psychological, in that an opponent will assue they're too crap in combat to be a threat, but their bows are also handy for threatening support units like fast cavalry.

kroq'gar
28-02-2008, 02:54
Just to backpedal a bit...

Giving conflicting advice isnt bad, its various viewpoints to approach something. 'i can go over, or i can go under' does not equate to im going to walk into that wall.

He can take the best option to suit his style of play and model collection to find what works best for him. You might not agree with some advice, that doesnt make it incorrect or invalid, and nor does it mean that posters should gag themselves regarding what they advise just because it could conflict with someones post. Because we dont want to confuse the individual who started the thread (who i assume as an intelligent individual capable of objective thought and understanding more than one concept).

And with this self-gratifying rant i bit you goodday.

Dranthar
28-02-2008, 03:12
this is a typical "positive" animosity result.

It's not typical in my games. It's really messed my opponent up in the past.


to be rather sure that this works, you need to position a unit of orcs on foot at 3" of the flank of an elfish unit.

how you think you can achieve this against a mobile army, is beyond me...

3"? More like 11" when you count the fact that they can charge afterwards. And against an army with fewer units than you it's not that hard at all to get something on the flank. M5 doesn't mean much when a single unit of spear elves is facing off against two decent O&G units for the same price.

M5 is not "mobile". Cavalry is mobile. Flyers and skirmishers are mobile. M5 just means you're more likely to get the charge on an opposing infantry unit.

warlord hack'a
28-02-2008, 10:17
Thanks Dranthar for your last p[ost, I have been trying to get this point across to Storak more than once.. BUt somehow he keeps thinking that because elves have M5 they can do something about the O&G battleline being 10 inch wider and wrapping thier sides around the elves flanks.

Of course if the elves set up in a semi circular defensive position then they can cover their flanks, but then they are not called elves, they are called dwarves and certainly will not use their M5..

knightime98
29-02-2008, 10:37
I'm still missing something here on charging elves.. What I want to know is why would you ever charge spear elves to the front or swordmasters..
Now, I can see why you would if you got a flank charge - now that I understand...
You are giving them an advantage because they fight in 3 ranks with spears and only 2 ranks if they charge you.. Swordmasters, just bait them away with the snotlings - that I did and works great.

Now, getting 4 Snotling pump wagons is comical to say the least. A bit cheesy, yes...
Taking 4 gobbo chariots on top of those ... come on... Now you are getting an uber army just to fight high elves.. Yes, it works but it's against some fluff here. Not that I am a fluffy type person...

I'm thinking of mixing it up a bit more and hopefully, I'll be able to get a combo that works better. I do think taking more fanatics and chariots could be a clear key to helping.. But you only get so many specials... 2 chukkas, Rock Lobber, 2 chariots?? <-- Now you see here the elves have easy targets, just shoot the 2 chariots... You guys see the dilema..

warlord hack'a
29-02-2008, 10:42
do not charge swordmasters to the front, or bacially anywhere (unless they have only 2 ranks and you can get a flank charge off). Bait them away as you did
As for charging spear elves, you charge them because most likely he will not want to charge you. And since his ranged support is most likely more effective than yours you do not want to hang around all day. Just do not be afraid of the load of attacks as they are only S3, so your T4 and 4+ save will help you from being skwered. However, charging spear leves is not advisable with lightly armoured troops such as svg orcs..

warlord hack'a
29-02-2008, 10:59
I tooled my armylist a bit, using the following train of thought:

1) I now have a rock lobber. Rock lobbers are good versus enemy infantry blocks and the occasional hit on a chariot or big monster. Big infantry blocks are not the main threat to an O&G force and monsters can be taken down by spear chukkas more reliably (in theory at least).
2) So I ditched the rock lobber, which freed up a special choice. I got an extra Boar chariot (bringing my total two two boar and one gobbo chariot), so now I have three, which hopefully means that one will reach the enemy line.
3) Because my ranged support capacity dropped somewhat I ditched a BO bigboss and got an extra doom diver. Now doomdivers will not be as good against infantry and also not against chariots or monsters, but they are good for taking out enemy skirmishers, small elite infantry and knights, which are the units that trouble me most.

Incidentally this makes my army better at fighting HE and woodelves, only downside is I now have another animosity prone block of orcs..

warlord hack'a
29-02-2008, 11:04
as for HE shooting an orc boar chariot, they will need on average 48 succesful hits to take out one chariot (4 wounds, S3 vs T5, so that is one in 6 wounds, so that is 4*6=24 shots, but you also have a 4+ save, so 48 hits needed).

That's a lot of shots from normal bows. Of course, the repeater bolt throwers are bigger threat, but they are a threat to anything..

FurryMiguell
29-02-2008, 14:47
I never found the bolt thrower being a problem to my massed night gobbo army:p. And I jsut throw a rock at it to make it shut up.

I think fanatics are great against anything, and I use them against anything, but when I play HE, I find Orcs to be a great advantage, so I field 'Goznob's Wee Boy'z' to the army (two units of orcs, and a orc boss). They didnt match my theme, until I made some gobbos with whips marching in the last rank, driving the orcs foreward. My army theme is a powerful srap caravan that use orcs as their private workforce, and the orcs must work and fight in order to not be blown up by the gobbo shamans. and they rather like the fighting anyway:p

A few fantatics in chosen units can do great damage to the mroe powerful HE units, the horseriders and GS. I find the hardest thing in a HE army to beat when I play them to be the regular infantry, until I added the orc units that is;)

Cheers:D

Avian
03-03-2008, 13:25
I'm still missing something here on charging elves.. What I want to know is why would you ever charge spear elves to the front or swordmasters..
A 180 pt Orc Boyz unit with shields will usually be able to defeat a 265 pt High Elf Spearmen unit because they have more guys, are quite resilient to their attacks and the attacks from the surviving Boyz should take down an elf or so. Even if the High Elf unit costs 50% more and strikes first with a bucket load of attacks, you should win.

With Swordmasters the principle is the same: you just charge with something that can still pack a punch after they have done their attacks, though of course the unit needs to be nastier in this case. In my case I was ahead by 3 points before the combat, the elves killed a predictable 5 Orcs, leaving me two points behind and so I would win the combat unless my two characters failed to kill an elf each (as it turned out, they killed many more than that, elves being quite squishy and all).

knightime98
04-03-2008, 04:52
The Boyz move up to threaten the flank of the Swordmasters (a bluff since a charge would be suicidal).

The point that I had raised!




Turn 4 - Greenskins
Reckoning that with two fighter characters, more ranks, more guys and more banners, his unit can take the Swordmasters, the Warboss declares a charge.
Ok, now you have 2 characters in a unit to charge the swordmasters.. And you almost lost that one if you characters didn't do so well. They cleaned up... Don't know why the Swordmasters didn't try to assassinate atleast one of your characters!....

Aside from that, a good report.. Looks like you had several things go your way.. Don't know why he kept his mages in direct charge range of your units to die...

Overall, I see that the 4+ AS with Boyz is the cure for high elves... T4 and 4+AS will go a long ways... Overlooked it as I thought spears with more attacks and 5+AS would do it. Didn't think the 1 point of AS would make that much of a difference... Still on the fence about it...

Shamfrit
04-03-2008, 10:22
It's a shame the 4+ becomes a 7+ against Swordmasters :wtf:

I.e. deaded orcs.

Fanatics on Elves can rip apart units, especially groups of 15, 2 fanatics = 7 dead average.

Avian
04-03-2008, 11:10
Ok, now you have 2 characters in a unit to charge the swordmasters.. And you almost lost that one if you characters didn't do so well. They cleaned up... Don't know why the Swordmasters didn't try to assassinate atleast one of your characters!....
Are you kidding? :wtf: The Swordmasters hit and wound my characters on 4+, then they need to get past my saves and then actually get enough wounds to kill them. On average, he needs 12 Swordmaster attacks to kill my BSB and 54(!) Swordmaster attacks to kill my Warboss.

Now, he could have gotten six attacks against my Warboss, but the BSB was on the corner and throwing one Swordmaster against him would probably just result in me soaking the damage and getting more attacks against him from normal Boyz.

And the chance of my characters failing to do three or more wounds is extremely slim. Heck, my Warboss will on average kill four Swordmasters by himself, even if I did not get Waaagh! off.

Braad
04-03-2008, 12:46
I'm still missing something here on charging elves.. What I want to know is why would you ever charge spear elves to the front or swordmasters..

To get in combat maybe? One of the most boring games was where both me and my opponent were a bit to carefull and we nearly didn't get any close combat.

Also, would you charge a unit of chosen khorne chaos warrios, with at least 2 ranks and a character with just a unit of boyz? You would probably be beaten to dead. I don't see why the elves having one really dangerous unit is a problem? If plainly charging would be all there was to this game, it would be less fun. There are more ways to kill something.

TK421
04-03-2008, 21:04
It's a shame the 4+ becomes a 7+ against Swordmasters :wtf:

I.e. deaded orcs.


Swordmasters are only (heh, only) Str 5 so you get a 6+ save. White Lions are the Str 6 fellas.

Varath- Lord Impaler
05-03-2008, 00:31
Move squig Herder to middle of Elf lines.

Lose Combat

Fun ensues.

neXus6
05-03-2008, 12:45
Swordmasters are only (heh, only) Str 5 so you get a 6+ save.

And that's before you chuck nets on them from support units of Night Gobbos. :D
I recon even with the extra few attacks going onto the Gobbos if you can drop them to S4 and no ranks by sticking Gobbos in the side while Orc boys clean up the front rank your probably laughing.