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Colonel Walker
02-10-2005, 17:38
I was looking for more information on these guys. I know that Deathwatch takes the best Marines and puts them in strike forces to counter threats. But how is it that these guys are picked? Is it the Inqusition that controls them, or some other power? All i know about the Custodes is that they are the emp's bodyguards, and are the only one's that know the way to his throne room, and they and they alone say who goes in. But how good are they? Do they use weapons that most Marines dont use? What about their past history?
Food for Thought.

Kage2020
02-10-2005, 17:55
Most people will know generally where to get to the throneroom, but the adeptus custodes know the secret ways (used during the Age of Apostasy or something like that). As to the nature of the adeptus custodes, you could really just scroll down a few pages and see extensive arguments as to whether they are normal Marines, uber-Marines, proto-Primarchs, or whatever. (I go for the proto-Primarch model, as always.)

As to the Deathwatch, they are the Chamber Militant of the ordo xenos, one of the three major sub-divisions of the Inquisition. So, yes, in many ways the Inquisition can be said to control them. At least more so than any other Chapter of the adeptus astartes.

Kage

sulla
02-10-2005, 21:09
Deathwatch aren't neccessarily the best marines, they are more likely the best marines for the mission at hand. Deathwatch teams are recruited on a mission by mission basis so a mission to observe and quarantine a dead world out in the halo stars is not gonna use the best assault specialists from a dozen companies, for example. Likewise, a team called in to investigate a possible enslaver infestation on an important ecclesiarchal world is not likely to ask for the most trigger-happy veterans of a chapter.

I like to think of the marines in a kill-team each fulfilling a specialist role (a-la 'the dirty-dozen etc), so there might be the commander, the sniper, the demo expert, the language specialist etc. I even modelled an apothecary and techmarine in my kill-team although they don't have those abilities...it just suits my thinking that they are an entirely self-contained unit who operate without the extensive support a marine chapter would require...

Sulla

GamesmasterZ
02-10-2005, 21:38
The Deathwatch are the Navy Seals of the 40K universe...

The Adeptus Custodes are the Secret Service...

I would guess that...they're not very different.

Mother_Mercy
02-10-2005, 22:51
The Custodes wear high helmets la Eldar, and are armed with glaives with bolters strapped on them. Now, according to old school fluff they wear no armour apart from a poncho-style robe (but have a power field). According to their rather kick-ass illustrations in the Horus Heresy CCG, though, they wear full decked-out power armour, something I feel would suit them rather better.

As to their nature, well, I believe they were there before the Space Marines, before even the Primarchs. So basicaly it depends on whether or not you ascribe to the Tolkien school of thought (according to which, everything was better in the past). If so, they are a breed of super-marines. Otherwise, they are merely very good but unenhanced humans.

Kage2020
02-10-2005, 22:56
Definitely agree that the imagery in the new 'fluff' is a definite improvement. I just believe that their identification as 'super Marines' is a bit on the... predictable side. A part of the up-scaling that you see in the 'fluff' for whatever 'army' is being given attention. That's why I prefer the proto-Primarch approach, the result of differing gengineering experiments that were ultimately integrated to take the form of the Primarchs and, later, bastardised to form the Space Marines.

It's a preference gig... ;)

Kage

sulla
03-10-2005, 02:21
Do the new Horus Heresy books have anything new on the Custodes?

AngelofSorrow
03-10-2005, 06:32
From what i understand of the Deathwatch they are Space Marines from different chapters that are selected due to their Xeno- fighting abilities. Thats why they are the Ordo Militant of the Ordo Xenos or Alien Hunters

I could be wrong though

halo
03-10-2005, 08:28
I was looking for more information on these guys. I know that Deathwatch takes the best Marines and puts them in strike forces to counter threats. But how is it that these guys are picked? Is it the Inqusition that controls them, or some other power? All i know about the Custodes is that they are the emp's bodyguards, and are the only one's that know the way to his throne room, and they and they alone say who goes in. But how good are they? Do they use weapons that most Marines dont use? What about their past history?
Food for Thought.


Since the Custodes were present since the Emperors enthronement, is it possible that they may be one of the Chapters that was deleted from the original Chapters list. It would seem that if they were originally the Emperors own praetorian guard they, would be space marines of some form.

Str10_hurts
03-10-2005, 09:42
I thought that the Deathwatch was a group of elite veterans form all kind of chapters. They can voluntanteer to partisapate for an X time before going back to there chaper...very much like wolfblades from 'spacewolf series' only not orderd.

I guess it goes verry much like this:
Marine 1: 'OMG the orks just killed my company captain,I..need vengance!'
Marine 2: 'To bad were on an other mission to Trachian to suppres a chaos cult.'
Marine 1: 'What! Thats it, I'm signing up for the Deathwatch!'

Wraith
03-10-2005, 10:16
...whether they are normal Marines, uber-Marines, proto-Primarchs, or whatever. (I go for the proto-Primarch model, as always.)

Of course some of us are of the opinion that a Primarch is simply an 'uber-marine' never mind a proto-Primarch. ;)

Adra
03-10-2005, 10:51
the dirrerence between marines and primarch is that marines are enhanced men where as 'march are test tube grown super men.

For some reason i have always though that custodes are enhanced men but enhanced at a later point in life....maybe the emperors personnal guard oobad up when he began experimenting on enhancments.

Not sure though

Sai-Lauren
03-10-2005, 10:59
The marines in the deathwatch are seconded to that organisation from their chapters, either as some chapter obligation, or as a reward to the marine for some service.

The custodes are the emperors own personal bodyguard - other than what's already been said, very little's known about them, and to be honest, short of a full Horus Heresy campaign, I think they're one of the things that should be left in the background.

Kage2020
03-10-2005, 13:04
Of course some of us are of the opinion that a Primarch is simply an 'uber-marine' never mind a proto-Primarch. ;)
The difference to me, as other posts seem to suggest above, is that the Primarch is gengineered while the Marine is bio-enhanced. The power relationship between the Primarchs and the Marines is up for debate and, indeed, I've posted elsewhere that I don't see them capable of what I would call the 'ludicrous' feats associated with the Primarchs. For example, I would say with hand on heart that I believe a Primarch is stronger than a Marine, to select a simple example, but that a Marine in AAPA is stronger than a Primarch...

Kage

Mother_Mercy
03-10-2005, 13:26
...but that a Marine in AAPA is stronger than a Primarch...


I'm sorry to spam, but a Marine in what?

Kage2020
03-10-2005, 15:49
Oh sorry about that. Adeptus Astartes Power Armour. As opposed to just PA, or Power Armour. My bad entirely!

Kage

Wraith
03-10-2005, 15:49
the dirrerence between marines and primarch is that marines are enhanced men where as 'march are test tube grown super men.

...

The difference to me, as other posts seem to suggest above, is that the Primarch is gengineered while the Marine is bio-enhanced.

Yes, I know this, i'm sorry what I meant was that IMHO Primarch's were 'just' advanced space marines but 'yes' they were 'born' as such while your standard marine is born a normal human.

The advanatges of being born with an advanced phisiology rather than having it introduced to a 'foreign body' would certainly account for the Primarch's greater 'power' (plus things like psychic powers etc) IMHO.


...but that a Marine in AAPA is stronger than a Primarch...

Advanced, Auto-reactive, Powered Armour?

Yes, I agree.


To me the custodes might have been the final result of the Emperor's first pre-primarch experiments investigating just how one would go about creating a marine once a Primarch's genetic material was harvested.

If this is true it is possible that a marine and a custode is very similar however I'd hazard a guess that (a) a custode might be more advanced/better in some way compared to a marine and (b) the opposite of 'a' or else marines logically wouldn't exist as they'd be all custodes.

Speculating now I'd imagine a custode could be more advanced than a marine but the time it takes to create a custode is longer and/or the success rate of the implants are much lower in custodes.

Suicide Messiah
03-10-2005, 18:11
I think custodes are quite a bit better than your 'average' space marine, because they have/had far too important roles not to be. Plus theres the whole Tolkien inspired thing that 'everything was better way back when' that WH40k seems to have adopted.

As for the march's i really do think that they were that hard. Since its been debated how hard the emperor was and people gennerally agree he could wipe out armies with a thought (alpha + psyker or whatnot that he was), and the primarches are just toned down clones of himself. I'd also have to disagree with what Kage said about space marines in AAPA being stronger, since theres just too big a leap in power. The primarchs (well most of them) ruled entire worlds with little or no help other than being found and then beating everyone at everything, and as i've said were emperor spawn. Whereas space marines are just strong, able men who have been upgraded.

Mother_Mercy
03-10-2005, 20:08
You have to remember that much of the things ascribed to the Primarchs are pure myths, not to mention physically impossible. Leman Russ lifting an entire mountain range and carrying it across a continent? Sanguinius breaking the back of a Greater Daemon across his knee? The Primarchs were big, they were strong, but they weren't Titan-sized.

That said, they were probably the strongest, hardest humans (insofar they even were human) to ever exist. But they had limits.

As to the Emperor destroying entire armies with his psyker powers...well, if he could do that, why did it take him a couple of centuries to conquer Terra? I'd say that's just another myth.

Suicide Messiah
03-10-2005, 20:57
Oh yeah most of the primarch's deeds are obviously myth, but some of the things their supposed to have done is deffinately doable, and i reckon sangy could have broken the back of a demon but probably not across his knee :p .

I'll admit im not too hot on the fluff, especially the stuff thats not free, in WD or a codex but wasnt the emperor an alpha level psyker? I've heard people on this forum say they could take out titans and thousands of men with but a thought. I could be wrong however.

Wraith
03-10-2005, 22:48
The Emperor despite his aplha +(+) level psyhcic powers was still just a human, perfect human maybe in that he was the best a human could be but physiology wise he has/had one heart, two lungs, one stomach etc.

The primarchs were super human i.e. IMHO it is logical they had all the extra biological upogrades a marine has as the primarchs genetic material was used to cultivate the first batch of astartes gene seed for implantation.

Psychic powers aside I highly doubt a Primarch could match a normal marine for strength if the marine was wearing powered armour.

Using psychic powers to enhance one's strength however is another thing... Certainly the Emperor it could be proposed used his powers plus his powered armour to appear stronger than physically he was.


Alpha + level psychers are so strong they have been known to control the minds of a large proportion of a city's population, indeed causing one to shoot one self would be child's play (read the Eisehorn trilogy for more).

sulla
04-10-2005, 00:55
Psychic powers aside I highly doubt a Primarch could match a normal marine for strength if the marine was wearing powered armour.
.

And yet two thing dispute this.

1) in the tabletop game a marine in powered armour is as strong as a scout in unpowered armour.

2)In the IA for ythe space wolves and the IA for the iron hands, both these chapter look in awe at feats of strength performed by their primarchs...

Mother_Mercy
04-10-2005, 09:13
Well, there's always a risk when refering to the rules, since they are designed for game balance and not realism. That said, in the Eternal Rivals rules the Primarchs have a strength-value of 5-6 (not counting stuff like magic swords and suchlike), putting them on par with any Grey Knight or beefed-up Chaos Marine.

But I believe we are hijacking the thread.

Wraith
04-10-2005, 10:11
1) in the tabletop game a marine in powered armour is as strong as a scout in unpowered armour.

Please... the rules mean near absolutely nothing, they're designed for game balance and nothing more.


2)In the IA for ythe space wolves and the IA for the iron hands, both these chapter look in awe at feats of strength performed by their primarchs...

Legends to inspire...

Khaine's Messenger
04-10-2005, 10:26
It's possible that the Custodes were the results of a rather lengthy and elaborate breeding program rather than the more "expeditious" Primarch and Legions Astartes experiments. In essense, humans capable of achieving optimal physical conditions thanks to centuries of artificial selection coupled with proper nutrition and training regimes rather than any sort of wham-bam surgery (beyond maybe a few tweaks here and there to make them into proper future-soldiers, like wiring them for communications or other things of that nature)...perhaps even the descendants of earlier Sensei (through artificial processes, because iirc Sensei are mostly sterile...?).

And like in the last thread on this topic, I'd like to point out that one may as well raise a distinction between the Heresy-era Custodians and the "present-day" Custodian Guard. It's quite possible that they are no longer what they once were. Having them extremely long-lived would be rather dull, I think.

DantesInferno
04-10-2005, 11:41
I wouldn't be a huge fan of the eugenics theory anyway, since I think that an Emperor who oversaw the creation of armies of super-humans would want the very best for his personal bodyguard, not some group of normal humans bred under optimal conditions (however good your conditions are, you're simply not going to be as tough as a 7 foot killing machine with an extra heart, lung, fused ribcage etc). And in order to maintain their place as the Emperor's bodyguards in the 'modern' Imperium, they'd still need to be credible fighters IMO.

In any case, here's a piece from a WD article introducing the Horus Heresy card game:


The Custodian Guard
The Space Marines are not the only super-human warriors created by the Emperor. The first group of genetically and psychologically modified troops he created were his own personal bodyguard - the Custodian Guard. Their duty simply to ensure the safety of the Emperor at all times.

Stronger than a Space Marine, the Custodian is a fearsome warrior and has an unbreakable devotion to the Emperor.

This would seem to indicate that they are modified from normal humans in a similar way to Marines, rather than created from scratch like the Primarchs (besides, if they were still being recruited 10 000 years later, the technology must have survived somehow. I would hate it if they are immortal or any other cop-out).