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Pimp My Rhino
19-02-2008, 15:18
So from what I've gathered the new SM codex is coming out this fall and we can expect to see:
1)Combat squads (no more 5 man las/plas squads)
2)Terminators squads are 5 max with only 1 heavy weapon
3)Scouts becoming elites.
4)Less assault cannons in the list (or nerf).
5)Removal of traits

Can't say I am happy with any from the above..
On the other hand What I would really like to see in the new codex is a point-cost drop for scouts. I believe that a cost of 10 or 11 points with a drop of strength or WS to 3 would be ideal because a) scouts will be used more in games b) scouts will be actually.. scouts (fluffwise) and not SM in worse armor (boring!). C)Gives even more flexibility to SM commanders. The way it is now scouts are too expensive!

So guys What do you want to see in the new codex?

fattdex
19-02-2008, 15:23
I am confused as to what this post is trying to achieve, news and rumors wise.

sheck2
19-02-2008, 15:41
Pimp...where did you get the expect to see? Are you creating speculation or posting information for a 'source'?

TheOneWithNoName
19-02-2008, 15:47
It's a SM wishlist in disguise. Quick to General discussions!

Pimp My Rhino
19-02-2008, 16:00
Pimp...where did you get the expect to see? Are you creating speculation or posting information for a 'source'?

The info is from various sources online, Librarium online (http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/) comes to mind.
fattdex I believe the topic is clear, post anything related to it (if you wish :))

Captain Brown
19-02-2008, 16:06
However as we have a specific forum for 5th edition discussion I am moving this thread there.

Captain Brown
WarSeer Inquisition

Pimp My Rhino
19-02-2008, 16:12
Pimp...where did you get the expect to see? Are you creating speculation or posting information for a 'source'?
The info comes from various sources online (librarium online comes to mind)

Curufew
19-02-2008, 16:20
Well I think that those info came from what has happen to the DA and BA codex.

Pimp My Rhino
19-02-2008, 16:39
Well I think that those info came from what has happen to the DA and BA codex.
True ;). So want do you want to see in the new codex? Come on people let the ideas flow!

marv335
19-02-2008, 16:47
So from what I've gathered the new SM codex is coming out this fall and we can expect to see:
1)Combat squads (no more 5 man las/plas squads)
2)Terminators squads are 5 max with only 1 heavy weapon
3)Scouts becoming elites.
4)Less assault cannons in the list (or nerf).
5)Removal of traits


1) I use combat squads anyway, this won't effect me, not bothered
2) I only use 5 man term squads with one HW anyway.
3) This one annoys me, I field a pure scout force sometimes.
4) I rarely use them
5) I don't use traits.


I don't think scouts are underpointed at the moment.
a scout costs 5pts less than its nearest equivalent (veteran marine).
not such a bad deal.

Deathpepper
19-02-2008, 16:58
I'm fine with 1,2, and 4. They've been a while in coming, fit the marines backstory, etc. (Although I feel terminators were overcosted before and will be even moreso with worse weapon options.)

Scouts as elites is just a kick in the pants, though. They're an ok unit that is seldom fielded. Taking them out of troops means they're non-scoring and worth double kill points. They'd better get at least twice as good. Like 6pts each or get better weapons (sniper rifles/power weapons) for free.

Taking away our traits keeps being mentioned, but I really hope not. Just balance them better, please!

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
19-02-2008, 17:14
1) I use combat squads anyway, this won't effect me, not bothered
2) I only use 5 man term squads with one HW anyway.
3) This one annoys me, I field a pure scout force sometimes.
4) I rarely use them
5) I don't use traits.


I don't think scouts are underpointed at the moment.
a scout costs 5pts less than its nearest equivalent (veteran marine).
not such a bad deal.

however with outflank rule, it can happend that scouts are quite good unit [as probably veteran squa dont get veteran skills anymore] - enter flank, shoot with shotguns and tie an unit. pretty good stuff imo.

My speculations:

Captain: as in C:BA

Chaplain: as in C:DA

Librarian: could be similiar to C:DA/BA ones or to C:CSM sorcerer [in terms of power to choose - anyway i bet it will be more custoizable than in C:BA/DA]

Command Squad: as in C:DA but 5 points cheaper and without fearless. only PA

Terminator Squad: as in C:BA but possibly lower price

Veteran Squad: as in C:DA but without fearless

Techmarine: as in C:BA/DA

Dreadnought: as in C:DA/BA

Scouts: as in C:DA/BA

Tactical Squad: as in C:DA

Assault Squad: as in C:DA

Attack Bike squad: as in C:BA

Land Speeder Squadron: as in C:BA

Vehicles as in C:DA [Predator as C:BA - 5 points more expensive]

Traits - maybe yes maybe not.

Mireadur
19-02-2008, 18:25
Do you realize that either DA and BA have tremendous chapter specific advantages that vanilla marines dont enjoy?

In truth i dont think several of those changes are happening like we are expecting to (ok, maybe im hoping not :P).

Neo799
19-02-2008, 18:31
This doesn't seem to be a rumour of any real significance. Just nonsensical speculation as is overly rampant on warseer.

Shouldn't the mods close this thread?

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
19-02-2008, 18:48
Do you realize that either DA and BA have tremendous chapter specific advantages that vanilla marines dont enjoy?

In truth i dont think several of those changes are happening like we are expecting to (ok, maybe im hoping not :P).

do you realize that i dont mention any DA/BA specific thing in my list?

BA:
Baal Predator
Furioso Dread
Death Cmpany
Veteran Assault Squad
Honor Guard

DA:
Deathwing [both PA and TDA ones - now you know i mention 'no fearless']
Ravenwing

i think my list is pretty close to New C:SM.

RSIxidor
19-02-2008, 18:50
This is the 5th discussion sub-forum, not the 5th rumor forum. This should be allowed.

Also, one rumor is that they want commanders to actually be in lists, so they're setting them up to give the chapter 'traits.' For instance, use the Furious Assault Captain and your guys get Furious Assault for a small fee.

I love the trait system, but it definitely has its flaws. The 'White Scars' suck with the trait system, so I can see how a 'White Scars Captain' would be good, and they might even allow a bike squad for him (please, god). And similar things down the road. (Salamander's Captain? More flamers in each squad? Pintle Flamers and Heavy Flamer Turrets on tanks? I'd like it.)

Joewrightgm
19-02-2008, 19:00
I think an easy way to fix traits would be by including an option in company captains that mess with the Force Org, like Belial or Sammael.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
19-02-2008, 19:05
I think an easy way to fix traits would be by including an option in company captains that mess with the Force Org, like Belial or Sammael.

more logical solution is to use both Belial/Sammy specials and Ork charaters FOC specials, ie: Take [insert name of said character] and one [insert name of unit] is troops.

also this forum is for 5th discussion - not only rumours.

Ravenheart
19-02-2008, 19:09
This doesn't seem to be a rumour of any real significance. Just nonsensical speculation as is overly rampant on warseer.

Shouldn't the mods close this thread?

The BA as one expample already did enjoy trendemous advantages during the 3rd edition, due to questionable 'restrictions' or 'downsides' that actually didn't harm them (in the competition aspect at least).

I would not be suprized if this logic would be applied again (even if A. Chambers left).


@Scouts: Scouts are elites mainly because of the new scout/infiltration rules.

Deathpepper
19-02-2008, 19:10
I'd prefer that they just make commanders better and let us freely choose our own HQs/army traits. Equalizing all the free wargear on the different independent characters would be a start (chaplains).

Mireadur
19-02-2008, 22:07
do you realize that i dont mention any DA/BA specific thing in my list?

BA:
Baal Predator
Furioso Dread
Death Cmpany
Veteran Assault Squad
Honor Guard

DA:
Deathwing [both PA and TDA ones - now you know i mention 'no fearless']
Ravenwing

Sorry if my comment sounded blunt mate, what i meant is precisely what you posted in the quote. DA and BA have so many advantages over normal vanilla marines that doesnt make sense they put all the nerfs on them without any counterpart.

There has to be some extra i hope!

Warsmith Strader
20-02-2008, 14:45
This is what I see happening. Not listing every single entry, just select few.

Captain- same as BA captain, except if choosing terminator armour may have Admantine mantule(sp?)

Terminators squads- may take one heavy weapon per five men, if squad number 10 may add second heavy weapon.

Veteran squad- like DA except without DA special rules.

Scouts- as elite choice

No trait system, new special characters, if choosing a Independant Character grants special rules of specific chapter...

Tactical squads- the option to upgrade to a veteran sgt(similar to chaos sm codex) adding bolt pistols and may be ccw, and combat squads. with having to take ten for heavy weapon.

Assault troops- same as BA, except
the option to upgrade to a veteran sgt(similar to chaos sm codex)

Devastators- combat squads, option for a vet sgt, two heavy weapons for five men,

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
20-02-2008, 17:02
Sorry if my comment sounded blunt mate, what i meant is precisely what you posted in the quote. DA and BA have so many advantages over normal vanilla marines that doesnt make sense they put all the nerfs on them without any counterpart.

There has to be some extra i hope!

yeah BA/DA always had their advantages, but they comes with one significant disadvantage - they were always less customizable [not counting bland 3ed codex] .

so parts where SM will probably shine will be amount of options.
-Librarian Psychic Powers.
-Special Characters.
-Chaplains and/or Librarian with different statlines.
-Few tricks to allow some unit to be troops.
-Captains who give some bonuses.
-Some options to mess with equipment/organization

any of these can be true.
IMO C:SM power will be closer to the C:BA power then to C:DA power.

Billpete002
20-02-2008, 21:13
The one thing that gripes me is they recently released the razorback w/ squad and the squad can equip a plasma or melta with a missile launcher.

under the DA and BA rules you can't even use the missile launcher which is supplied in the box. - I am all for getting rid of 6 man las/plas squads and making things balanced, but when you release a box within 1 year and then retract the options that box supplied is a tad annoying.

just my .02

Undertaker
20-02-2008, 21:50
It would be nice to see a unit of marines, like assault marines, have access to some CC upgrades such as power weapons, and not have them reserved just for sergeants (have fists reserved to sergeants only though). Its just that marines seem to sometimes lack in the CC area of the game, and after awhile, bolt pistols & ccw doesn't cut it anymore.

This is of course just wishful thinking, and probably won't happen.

Ignition
20-02-2008, 23:21
No trait system, new special characters, if choosing a Independant Character grants special rules of specific chapter



---->>> TLDR version at bottom


While the trait system isn't that great in its current incarnation, I think there has got to be a better way than just throwing a IC in to make a certain chapter that chapter. You really pigeonhole armies this way...

For example, lets say you play Iron Hands. To get special "Iron Hands" rules, you must take "Iron Father Isasicais the Techmarine Commander". Now, Iron Hands are just not Iron Hands unless they have a Techmarine in their HQ (IMHO) and given the way things look, the only way you can have that Techmarine leading your boys is if you take "Iron Father Isasicais". Doesn't sound like too big of a deal, right?

Well, think about this. Special Characters have set-in-stone permanent wargear. Every time you field your Iron Hands you must take that character if you want to get your special rules/a techmarine in your HQ which will perform exactly the same every battle. One of your HQ slots is pretty much taken away just so your chapter can be YOUR chapter.

Lord knows every special character is not created equal. Some are going to perform more poorly than others, and some are not going to perform anything at all like you want them. Say your Iron Hands are a in-your-face, hit-em hard and hit-em fast army. But, sorry there, Iron Father Isasicais is in standard power armor and only has a CCW, BP, and another special weapon. (Not saying this IS how it's going to be...the iron hand IC will most likely be a melee monster since he'll have the Servo-Harness (or at least he better!), but perhaps your pre-5th IH army was built to turtle, IDK.)

So not only is the IC mandatory to truly make your Iron Hands THE Iron Hands, there is no guarantee that he will mesh with your current army at all. Deal with it--"Change is necessary" is what they'll say. Be prepared.

Last, but certainly not least, special characters have a fixed cost. I don't know about you, but my HQ changes drastically from low pt to high pt games. In the BA codex the special guys have a price range of 100 to 225 pts (I'm assuming that since GW has this info on their site its okay to post, but if not I will delete). How would you like to play a 750ish pt game and have to pay ~200pts just to have a techmarine leading your army (as any IH army should).


TLDR version

My problems with having a IC give your chapter it's traits
1.) HQ slot used up just to make your chapter YOUR chapter
2.) Inflexible gear makes for a one-use-only HQ
3.) Set points cost hurts in small games if your chapter happens to have one of the more expensive ICs.

RSIxidor
21-02-2008, 00:27
I didn't think it required the special characters in that way. The way I imagined it was like this:

The 'Commander' army list entry, it gave options for different 'traits' such as a trait that gave all your squads Furious Assault, or a trait that gave you the option to take bike squads as Troops, or a trait that says you can put flamers on whatever you damn well please.

I would not like the special character version.

Ignition
21-02-2008, 00:36
I didn't think it required the special characters in that way. The way I imagined it was like this:

The 'Commander' army list entry, it gave options for different 'traits' such as a trait that gave all your squads Furious Assault, or a trait that gave you the option to take bike squads as Troops, or a trait that says you can put flamers on whatever you damn well please.

I would not like the special character version.

Man, I pray that is how they set it up--that's a far more superior way to handle it. Of course, they'll have to do something where they only can buy so many traits on the commander...but if you go that route, it's really not that different from how things are handled right now.

Bunnahabhain
21-02-2008, 01:33
I didn't think it required the special characters in that way. The way I imagined it was like this:

The 'Commander' army list entry, it gave options for different 'traits' such as a trait that gave all your squads Furious Assault, or a trait that gave you the option to take bike squads as Troops, or a trait that says you can put flamers on whatever you damn well please.

I would not like the special character version.

Fine, if either you limit the number of commander traits properly, ie to one only, as that is the set of traits for that chapter, or do it the way Guard doctrines do, and by choosing to use a varient list, you remove a very large number of options, so you have to buy them back.

Eg. standard commander is a capatin. If you want to use a Librarian, chaplin, or the chpter master, it costs a trait.

A battle company has tactical, assualt and devestaitor squads in it. Scouts, veterans and terminators are a trait each.

Essentailly, in return for losing acess to virtually all the troops, you then get to choose some interesting abilites. The trick is to make the losses large enough it's not easy to just take the advantages,and avoid the disadvantages caused by losing units X,Y and Z...

ehlijen
21-02-2008, 01:53
I don't think the traits will be tied to special characters, but more to certain characters wargear selections:

Captain in terminator armour: termies as troops
captain with jumppack: assault squads as troops but tactical squads must have transport and are FA
captain with bike: bikes are troops but tactical squads must have transport and are FA
captain with servo arm: seargants may have terminator armour, DNs are heavy support and elites, no termie squads

veteran skills will be restricted to named special characters, or possibly to relics and banners (finally they might be taken more).

Dranthar
21-02-2008, 02:04
I wouldn't be suprised if they use named (or special, whatever) characters to allow certain traits. That said, GW has been doing away with the notion that special characters are not given any options for customisation. Back in the 4th ed. SM codex that Calgar dude could have either power armour or terminator armour. Not much you say? Well with the Dark Angels the Matsre of the Ravenwing could be mounted on a Land speeder or Jetbike, and in WHFB, one or more of the VC characters are allowed to choose a magic item from the list, which GW hasn't done since WHFB 5th edition.

So I do think special characters will define the traits taken by a list, but I bet that they'll be given a decent variety of weapon/wargear options too.

Personally, so long as I can take something akin to my Xenos Hunters: Eldar trait, I'll be satisfied. :D

Occulto
21-02-2008, 02:06
I don't think the traits will be tied to special characters, but more to certain characters wargear selections:

Captain in terminator armour: termies as troops

I certainly hope they don't do that. :(

DW have always been the only army able to take Termies as Troops.

Joewrightgm
21-02-2008, 02:13
Well, with GW suddenly being big fans of Special Characters, I could picture traits being expressed through the special character choice.

IE: Shrike, choose assualt marines as troops
Random White Scar: bikes as troops
Random Iron Hand: dreads as troops

ImBiginKorea
21-02-2008, 03:44
Out of all of these rumors, I just don't understand the scouts as elites. I mean they're initiate space marines that arn't overpowered in mostways.

That means pseudo space marines (scouts) are in the same class as termies (which have fought a couple hundred years and wear 2+ armor) and dreadnoughts who are marine veterans kept alive to continue fighting. I mean seriously.

But I do really want the DA shotguns for my sm scouts.

--Korea

Dranthar
21-02-2008, 03:51
Out of all of these rumors, I just don't understand the scouts as elites. I mean they're initiate space marines that arn't overpowered in mostways.

That means pseudo space marines (scouts) are in the same class as termies (which have fought a couple hundred years and wear 2+ armor) and dreadnoughts who are marine veterans kept alive to continue fighting. I mean seriously.

The "elite" slots for the force organisation chart isn't just for units that are more experienced than the troops, but also for specialist units who don't necessarilly form the backbone of the army and instead act as more of a supporting element. That's the way it's been ever since 3rd edition was released.

RSIxidor
21-02-2008, 05:33
Captain in terminator armour: termies as troops


I would be against having this option, definitely against it. Although, isn't there currently a trait that lets you take Termie armor on single-wound models? That would be fine, I'd say.


Out of all of these rumors, I just don't understand the scouts as elites. I mean they're initiate space marines that arn't overpowered in mostways.

I don't like it either. The thought of flanking half of my troops slots while firing on anything that comes into my table edge, and using Assault Squads or DS Terminators to deal with pests on his table edge just seemed right. Now I can put more Tac squads in the troops slot, but the question is: Do I want to?

Dragonlv8
21-02-2008, 11:33
Remove traits= ruin fluff for alot of chapters.
If they do that it is very evident that they play test everything using Ultramarines models.
If any one has read the new dan abnet book, Iron snakes I think it was called where every squad has an apothercary which I would have loved to make one day.

Huw_Dawson
21-02-2008, 11:57
I think if GW were willing to give the BA treatment to some chapters (White Scars, Iron Hands, Raven Guard) and the DA treatment to other chapters (Space Wolves) then I think people wouldn't mind about the removal of traits. Essencially:

TBSMB<B> (The Big Space Marine Book): UltraMarines, Imperial Fists, Salamanders and offspring chapters (And other normals).
DA<B>: Dark Angels and offspring chapters.
BA<WD>: Blood Angels and offspring chapters.
RG<WD>: Raven Guard and offspring chapters.
IH<WD>: Iron Hands and offspring chapters.
SW<B>: Space Wolves and offspring... and 13th Company!
WS<WD>:White Scars and offspring chapters.

Yes, thats a lot of WD, six months of Raven Guard, White Scars and Iron Hands... I could see the advantage of mixing WS and RG into one book, and such.

I think this would be the happy approach for most people... of course, then we ALOT of MEQ codexes!

- Huw

Stormsender
21-02-2008, 12:20
I don't know how they're going to redue Codex Space Marines but I don't see them giving any special rules that they have already given to DA/BA that would just marginalize BA/DA and also duplicate already covered options.

If all the changes that they have done in regards to BA/DA (scouts as elites, terminator weapons/squad reductions, weapons cost increases,...) I will be suprised and probably shelf my army in favour of playing another game. GW is always recovering old territory and messing things up in the process.

Hrafn
21-02-2008, 12:36
I don't know how they're going to redue Codex Space Marines but I don't see them giving any special rules that they have already given to DA/BA that would just marginalize BA/DA and also duplicate already covered options.

If all the changes that they have done in regards to BA/DA (scouts as elites, terminator weapons/squad reductions, weapons cost increases,...) I will be suprised and probably shelf my army in favour of playing another game. GW is always recovering old territory and messing things up in the process.

Then you will have to go play another game, I'm afraid! It's more than evident that certain design guidelines for Marines are laid down in these Codeci. There is absolutely zero reason why BA and DA should share these fundamental elements, lest they are the the cornerstones of a new design strategy for marines. Having switched to BA from a vanilla chapte, I have experienced the differences for around a year. After that, I can't honostly understand why you would want to shelf your army:confused:

Also, could you please explain what army-wide special rules I have as an BA player? Except for the Death Company (which we pay normal points for), what gigantic benefits is it we reap?

infernus31
21-02-2008, 12:50
I don't think we'll be seeing the trait system back in the new 5ht ed codex, indeed I can imagine them making them all but follow the codex rules to the letter , rather like what they did to chaos.

The only thing I think will possbily be majorly different to DA/BA will be special characters and I think Scouts will be troops. Considering BA have assault marines, and DA can have Ravenwing/Deathwing as a second troops choice, I think scouts being the 2nd troops choice for generic marines would make them stand out a bit to the other 2 chapters.

I think it's clearly obvious that GW wants to do away from sub list themeing as Chaos and Eldar have shown us, I can quite easily imagine them saying that players will theme it within a standard Force org chart with no benefits and disadvatages from the trait system to assist players with unique lists. Which to be fair to them I can kind of understand , I mean thanks to the BA/DA dexes marines can already theme Biker/Terminators/Assault Marine focused armies

Arkturas
21-02-2008, 13:05
There are a number of styles that correspond to particular chapters that could be achieved by either a veteran skill or FOC movement to troops. The question is will they be implemented. Possibly allow 1 ability at a certain cost plus 1 veteran skill at a certain cost (extending to command squad)

Veteran skills will most probably be limited to IC's and command squads with a small chance of vet squads also.

Abilities would be bought and grant either a unit movement to troops on the FOC or some other exception or upgrade.

For units moving to troops, bikes, terminators, scouts and assault squads are the most likely candidates. Scouts depending on how 5th ed rules work with them and whether any chapters fight with majority scout forces. The others on how close to DA/BA they're willing to go.

Other abilities might include tacticals swapping heavy weapons for specials and upgrading veteran sergeants to apothecaries or terminators.

There may be combined abilities, like a White Scars commander can buy an upgrade for X points that allows Bikes as troops and also come with skilled rider at Y points per bike.

Combinations that exist now probably won't continue.

Marius Xerxes
21-02-2008, 15:32
Id imagine that they might just limit to special characters giving the ability to move certian units to differant sections of the FOC. While some would say they dont want to have to take say, Kayven Shrike (sp?) to have a "White Scars" army with bikes as troops. This would be a direct pattern taken from DA with the characters you have to take in that book to have certian things troops.

I know some would say they dont want to have to take a certian character to say they are "White Scars" but I kinda see it like DA. Your all DA just if you have this character you are more "Deathwing" or "Ravenwing" variations of that particular Chapter. So you would just be a variant organization of "White Scars" if you took that character.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
21-02-2008, 16:01
Id imagine that they might just limit to special characters giving the ability to move certian units to differant sections of the FOC. While some would say they dont want to have to take say, Kayven Shrike (sp?) to have a "White Scars" army with bikes as troops. This would be a direct pattern taken from DA with the characters you have to take in that book to have certian things troops.

I know some would say they dont want to have to take a certian character to say they are "White Scars" but I kinda see it like DA. Your all DA just if you have this character you are more "Deathwing" or "Ravenwing" variations of that particular Chapter. So you would just be a variant organization of "White Scars" if you took that character.

Shrike is Raven Guard 3rd company captain. not WS.

also it would be sad if special characters would do it. it will be better if basic Captain would have the option.

'Mastah of Dizasta[master tactician]' 'A Captain allow either one squad of Bike Squadron, Scout Squad, Assault Squad, Veteran Squad, Terminator Squad,Devastator Squad to be [one choice]troops or allow your tactical squads to buy special instead or heavy,replace their bolters with ccw [one of those]'

simple yet brilliant :D

Andrew Luke
21-02-2008, 16:05
I just started painting up a 10th company detachment. If scouts are elites I may slap someone. Probably someone named Jervis.

Marius Xerxes
21-02-2008, 16:37
Shrike is Raven Guard 3rd company captain. not WS.

also it would be sad if special characters would do it. it will be better if basic Captain would have the option.

'Mastah of Dizasta[master tactician]' 'A Captain allow either one squad of Bike Squadron, Scout Squad, Assault Squad, Veteran Squad, Terminator Squad,Devastator Squad to be [one choice]troops or allow your tactical squads to buy special instead or heavy,replace their bolters with ccw [one of those]'

simple yet brilliant :D


Yeah my mistake with the Chapter allegiance error. Hope that dosent take away from intention of what i was trying to say though.

Grand Master Raziel
21-02-2008, 16:57
Strip away the stuff from the BA and DA lists that's chapter-specific, and I think you've got a pretty good model of what we can expect to see from SM-Redux: 5 or 10 man squad size format, 10-man requirement for heavy weapons in Tac squads, Combat Squads rule, 5-man 1-heavy Termie squads, armory replaced by options in specific entries, more expensive assault cannons, some things made more expensive and other things made cheaper. People who made armies to one or the other extreme will find that they can't make the armies they're accustomed to with the new rules, people who made balanced all-arounders will probably be largely unaffected.

Given what appears to be the current design philosophy regarding Veteran Skills, I think that the Trait system as we currently know it has its days numbered. If such a system makes it into the next book, I'm pretty sure that any Trait that confers Veteran Skills will get the axe, except for maybe TYBB. Seeing as how a basic Chaos Space Marine gets bolter, bp, and ccw for 15pts, being able to get a bonus attack for having bolter-ccw doesn't seem like it would be objectionable. Anything that allows breaking of the FOC will probably go, too, except for Be Swift As The Wind, to allow White Scars-style armies.

Take away anything that allows Veteran Skills and anything that allows breaking the FOC, and you're not left with much from the Traits system. Off the top of my head, all you're really left with is Cleanse And Purify, Heed the Wisdom of the Ancients, Never Despair, Purity Above All, Take The Fight To Them, Scions of Mars, and Uphold the Honour of the Emperor. I suppose with those and the exceptions I suggested above, you could still have the workings of some kind of Traits system, but I kind of doubt they're going to bother. Never Despair, Scions of Mars and UtHotE are kind of stupid, and C&P, TTFTT, and even PAA could simply be folded into the options available to Tactical Squads.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
21-02-2008, 16:58
Yeah my mistake with the Chapter allegiance error. Hope that dosent take away from intention of what i was trying to say though.

of course not.

it even might prove to be right. i just prefer the other way, but if it will be that way, i'm not going to cry - i'll just play the game. it is not bad solution after all.

Maxis Lithium
21-02-2008, 17:02
I have heard though the grape vine that while traits will be gone in the form they exist now, they will not be forgotten. As I have been told, you will be able to customize your Force Commander, and what you give your force commander will dictate what you can do with the rest of your army.

For example, if you give a Force Commander Furious Charge, then the rest of the army will get an option to buy furious charge. I also suspect that there will be an option that will give you Scouts as troops, though they will be standard as Elites. So, I doubt that people will be too screwed over by that.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
21-02-2008, 17:16
Anything that allows breaking of the FOC will probably go, too, except for Be Swift As The Wind, to allow White Scars-style armies.

Not to be an a**, but white scars companies [with funny names] are indeed codex. just their assault squads/characters/veterans prefere bikes.

so it is quite strange to do all-bike army - it is just unfluffy. sorry :P

just like Iron Hands with Dreadnought/Terminators spam is unflufy build. they have 8 dreads total!!!and They have very few TDA suits!![both serve command/inspiring role - but it doesnt change much :P]

Ravenheart
21-02-2008, 18:16
There is a certain possibility that some of the current special characters won't be featured in the future codex; opening place for others who might be used to meaningfully represent some more divergent chapters.
A white scars commander that makes bikes troops or a crimson fist one that makes scouts troops.

This is imho more likely that generic commanders giving special rules, from what we have seen in the Ork & DA codex.

spacemonkey
21-02-2008, 18:45
Guess I'll throw my few cents in. One, it indeed looks like the 'Codex' changes as seen in the DA and BA dexes are coming including:

As for Scouts in the box as they are not going to be troops choices so it's doubtful. (Emphasis mine. Brimstone made this comment in the new starter set rumor thread here (http://warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2357045&postcount=226).)

Two, I see the options for USRs being severly curtailed to only Veterans (if DA Veterans can have Fearless there is hope) and Special Characters.

Three, I can see several of the traits being shunted into a captain/commander choice via some sort of Reserve/Specialist Company option. There would specific options for allowing Assault Squads, Bike Squadrons, and Devastator Squads to be taken as Elites, and Scouts to be taken as Troops. Assault and Devastators already have these options under the traits system and I believe Bike Squadrons would also be moved this way because, as Acheron points out, even the White Scars are a Codex chapter and Tactical Squads are the backbone of a chapter.

For representing some of the more eccentric chapters, like the Iron Hands who's options don't fit as nicely under a specific Company type, I'd expect some new Special Characters. I'm carefully optomistic on what these characters might be like given the Masters of Ravenwing and Deathwing from the DA book (characters with options that is).

Kirasu
21-02-2008, 19:33
Traits were/are an amazing way to sell models that dont normally sell. IE bikes and venerable dreadnoughts

Makes for a tactically inflexible army that is frustrating to play but hey it cost 600 dollars and GW is happy

Kyuubi Brat
21-02-2008, 20:07
I don't thinks scouts will be elites. I mean this is and has always been the case for BA, DA ect and it has always been the case for vanilla Marines that scouts are troops so I think it's a mistake to speculate that scouts will become elites (besides, what's the sense in having elites who are actually new recruits!!??).

Ravenheart
21-02-2008, 20:20
I don't thinks scouts will be elites. I mean this is and has always been the case for BA, DA ect and it has always been the case for vanilla Marines that scouts are troops so I think it's a mistake to speculate that scouts will become elites (besides, what's the sense in having elites who are actually new recruits!!??).

Well, scouts have been troops for BA and DA too until the last codex.

From a gaming perspective, this was introduced because of the new scout/infiltrator rules, that allow them to strike from a board edge, I assume.

From a fluff perspective, a chapter would not want to risk to many scouts in combat at once, as they are the future of the chapter.

And after all, Marines are the backbone of the army, to many people went for the min troops (2x scouts) and max elites/support; this is what GW want's to abolish.

Fangschrecken
21-02-2008, 20:47
The whole point of the traits was to limit yourself in such a way that you had to do something a certain way. Some people infiltrated everything, and were in bad shape if they couldn’t, same with drop pods not coming in (not a trait though). Thing is I see a lot of people complaining about the traits, but is messes the uses too.

This kind of reminds me of how people who purposely restricted themselves to a certain type of army in old chaos in the name of fluffiness, got a beating with the new book. Fluffy armies seem to be going the way of the dodo, chaos tau, nice chaos, nutritionist tyranids, and the most heinous culprit, apocalypse; abbadon and the nightbringer side by side, Dracula AND the wolfman in the same army, sisters and heretics. Seems id best climb into my bunker, put my fingers in my ears, and try to pretend everything’s all right.

Kirasu
21-02-2008, 21:41
I just hate the idea of chapters claiming they only use X.. Im sorry but every single space marine chapter has access to virtually every thing the others do

White scars *have* devastators, land raiders and guys on foot.. The "fluffy" aspect is generally in regards to the chapters FIRST company.. Like the Blood angels first company is almost all veteran assault units however.. believe it or not the rest are normal marine companies

There are a few exceptions of some chapters being so undermanned and fairly useless as a fighting unit they dont have certain units...but by in large all the major chapters can use anything they want.. I dont understand restricting yourself as Ive seen this only leads to Ebayitis (The medical condition caused by GW changing a codex and people who have one trick pony armies selling it on ebay.. Look it up, its in the DSM IV

TemplarMarshal
21-02-2008, 22:39
Except black templars ;-)

Vaktathi
22-02-2008, 00:03
Honestly for an SM redux, I'd expect basically just the BA/DA codex's without their chapter specific rules and a couple extra characters, along with a *very* dumbed down Trait system (something more along the lines of allowing extra unit options where it was once a Trait)

Dragonlv8
22-02-2008, 10:16
For some reason Im getting really worked up about this, maybe because I want to collect a marine list one day.
For the list I want to make I wont care what they do as long as I can take apothercarys in any squad and still have a sargent in the same squad.
e.g. I want to make a squad with a vetran sargent with a power claw and bolter, a plasma marine and a apothercary and 7 normal marines.
Maybe the option to have an apothercary in exchange for a heavy weapon :)

Huw_Dawson
22-02-2008, 11:22
Cheese guessing time!

Scouts being cheapened and being able to be either Elites or Troops. With rending sniper rifles. And then loading out on as many cheap vehicles as you can carry (Pred. Devs), Dreadnoughts, ad nauseum. This will have all those lame 13 year olds SCREAMING cheese! :D

This is my cheese calculation for the moment. ;)

- Huw

Neo799
22-02-2008, 13:36
So 5th edition marines codex will be DA/BA minus anything special to offset the increased costs and rigidity of the new rules? Marine-haters rejoice! Those awful, not really overpowered, marines just got even easier to beat!

Wuestenfux
22-02-2008, 13:55
So from what I've gathered the new SM codex is coming out this fall and we can expect to see:
1)Combat squads (no more 5 man las/plas squads)
2)Terminators squads are 5 max with only 1 heavy weapon
3)Scouts becoming elites.
4)Less assault cannons in the list (or nerf).
5)Removal of traits


This is what is to be expected due to the DA codex, and this codex resp. DA army is considered to be the worst in the 40k universe (see discussion at DakkaDakka).
Playing Marines will become really boring...



I just started painting up a 10th company detachment. If scouts are elites I may slap someone. Probably someone named Jervis.
One of the most uninspired game developers at GW.



So guys What do you want to see in the new codex?
This is an interesting question. However, what can be seen in the codex also depends on the 5th ed.
Some special rules as given in Apocalypse would be nice.

Arkturas
22-02-2008, 14:18
Veteran skills will probably be almost completely removed, BA have none apart from on Death Company and DA get fearless on IC's, Deathwing and command squads (so veterans don't get any skills)

There are potentially several ways of allowing for variations, by chapter and by compnay. As by company would include devastator companies (Dev's as troops is somewhat doubtful) and is covered at apocalypse level I can only see chapter specific alterations being made that can apply to almost all units. That basically comes down to things like weapon swaps (2 specials instead of Sp&Hvy and BP&CC for bolters) and maybe a FOC swap.

Wuestenfux
22-02-2008, 14:32
Removing veteran skills is almost certain by considering the new CSM codex. Variations stimulated by the Apocalypse codex would be highly welcome.




1)Combat squads (no more 5 man las/plas squads)
I don't like the combat squad concept. Five men shooty squads are fine, but five men with special weapon and power fist are pointless.



2)Terminators squads are 5 max with only 1 heavy weapon
Termies with one heavy weapon will be overpriced.



3)Scouts becoming elites.
Scouts as Elite units, that's a joke of Jervis.



4)Less assault cannons in the list (or nerf).
Skimmers (Tornados) get nerfed which will already imply that we will see less assault cannons.



5)Removal of traits.
Less customizability. Ultramarines all the way, that's a bad decision. Not all SM players like the flavour of Ultramarines.



Cheese guessing time!

Scouts being cheapened and being able to be either Elites or Troops. With rending sniper rifles. And then loading out on as many cheap vehicles as you can carry (Pred. Devs), Dreadnoughts, ad nauseum. This will have all those lame 13 year olds SCREAMING cheese!

This is my cheese calculation for the moment.

A horrible vision...

Finally, special characters? They are mostly not really powerful enough to play them (bar Sammael, Belial, Lemartes, and Mephiston).

Fangschrecken
22-02-2008, 15:34
Ultramarines have a flavor?

Azzy
22-02-2008, 15:38
Ultramarines have a flavor?

Yup. Tastes like chicken. :)

Wuestenfux
22-02-2008, 15:42
Yup. Tastes like chicken. :)
They taste like smurfs, all the way.:cries:

superknijn
22-02-2008, 15:43
White scars *have* devastators, land raiders and guys on foot.. The "fluffy" aspect is generally in regards to the chapters FIRST company.. Like the Blood angels first company is almost all veteran assault units however.. believe it or not the rest are normal marine companies

Well, it's just the general make-up off the chapter. White scars have more bikes, Blood Angels have more assault squads, but that's chapter-wide. First Company's just the Terminators and other veterans. All 'special organization' chapters usually do field at least one or two of each type of company (Tactical, fast attack, devastator), and generally have acces to all standard equipment, with one or two exceptions. White Scars should be able to field Devastators, but only in small amounts.

It's not their forté, but they surely are able to adapt themselves if the need arises.

Wuestenfux
22-02-2008, 16:25
If traits are gone, the variations from chapter to chapter will basically come from the chapter organization. Those variations are generally not very attractive (unless you want to play, say, DW, RW).

Sarigar
22-02-2008, 16:52
I can foresee the named characters altering the force org chart in the same way as the DA codex does.

foehammer888
22-02-2008, 17:26
I can foresee the named characters altering the force org chart in the same way as the DA codex does.
Yeah, the new daemon codex has lots of special characters, as does the new Vampire Counts. I might expect the same from the SM book. We may see several characters from some of the more variant chapters which make force org chart changes.

- white scars character allowing bikes as troops
- Ravenguard allowing more assualt squads
- etc.

allows some basic flexibility and representations of chapters without the lack of control that the traits had. Generally, most players have very little problem "theming" any army using the standard force org chart in a 1500-2k point game. A white scar player does have 3 FA slots to use on bikes and speeders, and bikes are very expensive units. An army with lots fo devastators has 3 HS slots for use on devastators. You just have the restriciton of having to take normal tacticals as troops, and be restricted in the other HS/FA units you take.

However, the days of infiltrating devastators is probably gone.

Foehammer

MadDogMike
22-02-2008, 20:02
So from what I've gathered the new SM codex is coming out this fall and we can expect to see:
1)Combat squads (no more 5 man las/plas squads)
2)Terminators squads are 5 max with only 1 heavy weapon
3)Scouts becoming elites.
4)Less assault cannons in the list (or nerf).
5)Removal of traits

1. Pretty much a given, and not really a bad one in my opinion.

2. Likely, though there may be a possibility of 10 man units with a second heavy weapon.

3. Likely, though annoying. Are scouts REALLY unbalanced as troop choices? If you moved them out of slot, I'd prefer them as FA; there are a lot of infiltrating/scout types in that category in other lists and scouts can compete more favorably as an option vs. assault marines, bikes, and speeders than they do competing with terminators, veterans, and dreadnoughts, most of which (especially in the case of vets) do almost the same thing as scouts and in many cases better.

4. I don't know that they'll need a nerf since Rending itself is taking a nerf in 5th. They may up the cost/availability like DA did, but I don't think they'll change the stats to assault cannons, they won't need to. Personally I can never seem to count on getting 6s on my assault cannons anyway, but a S6 4 shot weapon can always be useful.

5. Almost dead certain, though I think knowing their market and some of the newer Codex builds they'll probably come up with some way to effectively emulate certain trait builds with basic unit options. Cleanse and Purify could work out quite well if you just write the tac squad rules as "may take a special weapon instead of a heavy weapon" (new Chaos codex already does exactly that), and a simple "upgrade sergeant to Apothecary" option would cover that setup without a trait. I love the idea of a force commander having an option to upgrade the troops below him so long as it isn't dependent on particular characters. If you had Space Marine captains with the same stats as the DA ones and a "trait" upgrade option on them, you'd encourage the "SM lead into battle by their company captain" setup that fluff indicates should be most common anyway. Not sure how to work a generic Chapter Master so he's worth taking though, except maybe by having better wargear options (might be only CMs can take terminator armor for example). Some of the traits that're more associated with certain chapters like the Iron Hands having extra dreads and "Scions of Mars" will probably be restricted to particular special characters of said chapters though; Shrike for example might give "Blessed Be the Warriors" and "No Mercy, No Respite" rules to a force when taken.

EDIT: The negative traits they can just dump; it'll be hard to make them balanced anyway. They should balance any positive traits the way everything else is balanced anyway, via point cost. Doubt we'll have to fear uber-elite troops if the points costs for too many traits make the SM more expensive than Grey Knights.

Grand Master Raziel
22-02-2008, 20:19
I don't like the combat squad concept. Five men shooty squads are fine, but five men with special weapon and power fist are pointless.

I actually do kind of agree, but to fully appreciate the Combat Squads rule, you have to think beyond the way you'd otherwise do things. Five guys and a power fist may be pointless, but five guys with a flamer and a power weapon aren't. A single such squad might not do much all by itself, but have a couple such squads operating in tandem, or use them to support something like an Assault Squad, and you can get good results with them.

Alternately, you might use full 10-man Tac squads with a special, a heavy, and a sergeant with a PF. A squad like that really deserves the appellation "Tactical", because you have to think about how you use it every turn. Pretty effective, though, if used properly.



Termies with one heavy weapon will be overpriced.

I agree, but have some hope that they'll come down in price. Exhibit A: Chaos Terminators. Exhibit B: Blood Angels Terminators. If you take the cost listed for buying a Death Company marine and subtract that from the cost of a BA Termie squad, they wind up costing about 36pts each, IIRC. DA Termies are more expensive than that, of course, but they come with Fearless and Deathwing Assault for that price. Regular SM Termies would be less than that, I'd imagine.


Scouts as Elite units, that's a joke of Jervis.

That's what I thought at first, but it makes more sense to me now, in light of what the rumors say Infiltrate will be like in 5th ed.

I'm not entirely convinced that Scouts will wind up an Elites choice in 5th ed. Codex: Space Marines, though. Codex: Dark Angels conditionally allows both bikes and Termies to be Troops choices, and Codex: Blood Angels has Assault Squads as a Troops choice. I don't a future Codex: Space Marines having only one Troops choice, and I can't for the life of me think of what else might be put in that slot, unless other units get to be Troops conditionally, as in Codex: Dark Angels.


Skimmers (Tornados) get nerfed which will already imply that we will see less assault cannons.

Tornados got nerfed...unless you used that other style of Tornado. You know, the one that mounts something different from the Assault Cannon? Personally, I'm a big fan of the multimelta-heavy flamer Tornado. So, the AC-Tornado nerf won't effect me too much. I've only got one of those, but I have like five of the MM-HF Tornado.



Less customizability. Ultramarines all the way, that's a bad decision. Not all SM players like the flavour of Ultramarines.

Not everyone requires different rules to feel like their army is different from one of GW's archtypes. You can do a lot with backstory, paint scheme, little (or not so little) conversions, and so on. The Trait system is very popular with SM players, and removing it will make a lot of them upset. On the other hand, the 3.5 Chaos dex was very popular with Chaos players, and look what happened there. Now, 3.5 Chaos was wildly overpowered, and a goodly part of that was the free access to Veteran Skills and certain armies allowing breaking of the FOC. The Trait system doesn't offer quite the range of Veteran Skills that 3.5 Chaos did, but it does allow the biggies (Infiltrate, Furious Charge, and Tank Hunters) to be applied pretty much whereever the heck you might want them, and it allows much more radical breakings of the FOC than you could do with even 3.5 Chaos. So, in the interest of balance, it probably has to go, too. I'm not best pleased about it either, but I've been resigning myself to it since the current Codex: Chaos Space Marines came out. If they yanked most of the Veteran Skills access out of Chaos, then you can be pretty sure that it's not going to remain for Space Marines.

Dribble Joy
22-02-2008, 20:37
Indeed. I've seen too many FC, veteran squad/assault termi units led by chappys in my time, backed up by 6 man 4 lascannon tank hunter units.

With a FC libby on a bike.....

Straha
23-02-2008, 02:15
Well, scouts have been troops for BA and DA too until the last codex.

From a gaming perspective, this was introduced because of the new scout/infiltrator rules, that allow them to strike from a board edge, I assume.

From a fluff perspective, a chapter would not want to risk to many scouts in combat at once, as they are the future of the chapter.

And after all, Marines are the backbone of the army, to many people went for the min troops (2x scouts) and max elites/support; this is what GW want's to abolish.

Also, if scout snipers receive rending, it makes them a better choice. I usually run a 10 member scout sniper team, but rarely fill my elite slots. Aside from Terminators, which are expensive as hell, I really don't care much for the Space Marine elites.

Now if they can scout/infiltrate from the edge of the board, I"ll happily use elite slots to field more of them.

Also, with assault cannons becoming more expensive with "nerfed" rending, will dreadnoughts still be as sweet? Will close combat attacks "count" as rear strikes for dreadnoughts? If so.............

Now, with the assault cannon "nerf" in mind, if Terminators are restricted to five with only one heavy weapon, how popular will they be?

Depending on what pans out with the new edition, scouts may now be an attractive elite option.

Ben Dejo
23-02-2008, 02:49
As I recall fluff, actual marines are capped at 1000 bodies, including terminators. I would expect to see more scouts on the battlefield as their number is not counted against the 1000 tactical marines in the rest of the chapter. Nobody on this board can tell me with the casualties marines take on the battlefield that 1000 marines is enough, maybe 10,000, but not 1,000. I personally think that a "all scout" type list needs to be more thought out, maybe like the existing Black Templar mixed units. I feel that Space Marines need more scouts, or more precisely more scout like units, as a simple meatshield for their 3+ save marines, in a fluffy sense.

spacemonkey
23-02-2008, 02:53
I feel that Space Marines need more scouts, or more precisely more scout like units, as a simple meatshield for their 3+ save marines, in a fluffy sense. Fluffy? How many times are marines running around with a gaggle of scouts to soak up fire power in the fluff? :rolleyes:

Kirasu
23-02-2008, 02:59
Terminators with 1 heavy weapon are fairly useless.. Tactical squad has much more firepower for the same cost

Scouts with rending sniper rifles are interesting I guess, but still pretty expensive for a unit that cant move or fire .. and ive never understood the "scout" army because no SM chapter would even field that

Grand Master Raziel
23-02-2008, 03:17
Terminators with 1 heavy weapon are fairly useless.. Tactical squad has much more firepower for the same cost

Scouts with rending sniper rifles are interesting I guess, but still pretty expensive for a unit that cant move or fire .. and ive never understood the "scout" army because no SM chapter would even field that

Sure they would. A Neophyte's Crusade - a final test of worthiness before being promoted to full battle brother. I ran just such a list a while back. Kinda fun, actually.

Kirasu
23-02-2008, 03:30
That's like having an army of ninjas.. Sure some animes and bad history books like to tell stories of huge clans going to war at the same time.. It really didnt happen that way

Scouts are supposed to be recon and infiltration and oddly enough both of those dont work as well when you have a legion of guys trying to infiltrate into the same forest

RSIxidor
23-02-2008, 04:06
Terminators with 1 heavy weapon are fairly useless.. Tactical squad has much more firepower for the same cost

Scouts with rending sniper rifles are interesting I guess, but still pretty expensive for a unit that cant move or fire .. and ive never understood the "scout" army because no SM chapter would even field that

You can certainly say that its fluffy because the chapter they belong to, well, almost all of the regulars got blowed up! So now its just a few power armored space marines (the vet sergeants) , and a whole bunch of scouts. The fluffiest way (I think) to apply this would be to use Scouts as troops, Scout bikes in FA, HS can be Devastators using the trait that gives them Infiltrate, and only fielding them when you pay for the Infiltrate. Veteran Squads in Elites, must take skill. And only force commanders in HQ (or, if you'd prefer, ONLY librarians, or ONLY chaplains, or in a really weird situation, ONLY techmarines).

And very few tanks (maybe 0-1 non-devs in HS, and no dreadnoughts at all, and if you do field techmarine HQ, use him to stand around the few tanks you'll have out. haha.)

I think it'd be fun to play, anyhow.

guardsmen529
23-02-2008, 04:44
.. and ive never understood the "scout" army because no SM chapter would even field that

Well not a whole army of scouts, but for smaller games (750-1000, maybe pushing it a bit above that) an all scout force could be fluffily (spl? actually, is that even a word?) possible.

it can just represent a group of scout operating behind enemy lines, or caught in a battle while trying to do so, espicially for chapters that rely heavily on scouts, Raven Guard etc...

Yamagon
23-02-2008, 06:00
if traits go, my ear will die from all the complaining my trait heavy friends will do.

They could always do some of the things they have included in the Nids and Eldar dex's, including alternate slot possitions based on the points or unit amout.

EXAMPLE
with nids, you COULD take a carni*cough* dreadnaught as a elites if it is under 150 points, hence Iron hands.

Or with eldar, you can take wraithgua *cough* terminators as troops if you have a full squad of ten (i know in the new dex itll probobly be 5, but everybody usually has squads of 5 as 10 gets expensive fast, and it was for my example)

Doing little things like this with units such as scouts (where if they dont take snipers they can be as troops), bikers and assult squads could allow people to create their own unique lists. The only problem with this is that power gamers will make really strange lists with bikers as elites, terminators as heavy and Chaplins as troops. Itll open all kinds of hell.

Apart from that, i really hope they make vetarens as customisable as they are in quite litterely, every other marine codex, INCLUDING CSM (chosen)!
I believe the MKII veteren models released for Apoc is GW's "window" if you will to the new generic space marine codex vetaren marine choice, as they contain weapon options not available to the actual space marine codex.

shadows_at_dusk
23-02-2008, 07:51
Wow! I use traits, 6 man Tactical squads in R-backs. Scouts as troops. and an 8 man termie squad. I am not thrilled about any of the changes. I think marines are good the way they are. :(

The 5 man termies squads will really make landraider crusaders nearly worthless.

I really like options and customizeability. I can't stomach the thought of running a bland Ultramarines type force.

Fluffy or not... I would like to see Apothecary upgrades for every squad, termie apothecaries, Ithink teries should keep the 2 weapons regardless of size. Ithink termies should even be able to assault the round they deep strike much like the Callidus assassin or summoned demons. I know they do not technically have deep strike but it is basically the same. Maybe then it would be worthwhile to deep strike near an enemy. I personally never fear termies deep striking near me because they won't be around long enough to assault me next round, especially a tiny group of 5. I am looking forward to the price of rhinos an razorbacks to drop though.

Just my 2 cents.

RSIxidor
23-02-2008, 14:25
The 5 man termies squads will really make landraider crusaders nearly worthless.


Except that crusaders are one of the only tanks in the game that can still fire their sponsoons on the move. That is still my biggest complaint.

Grand Master Raziel
23-02-2008, 15:26
The 5 man termies squads will really make landraider crusaders nearly worthless.


Not really. 5 man Assault Terminator Squad + Termie Commander or Librarian + Termie Chaplain = pretty full Crusader. If you really want to fill up that last seat, throw in a Techmarine - he's got the same armor save as Terminators, so he'll fit right in.

Unclejo
23-02-2008, 15:36
IMHO the biggest problem with the trait system was that it had fairly crappy drawbacks. Oh dear, my drop pod army of doom with extra assault weapons and furious charge cant take tanks, thats my gameplan ruined!

Whilst some of them were characterful, some were pretty damn cheesy. They need disadvantages that matter.

Madfool2
23-02-2008, 16:01
IMHO the biggest problem with the trait system was that it had fairly crappy drawbacks. Oh dear, my drop pod army of doom with extra assault weapons and furious charge cant take tanks, thats my gameplan ruined!

Whilst some of them were characterful, some were pretty damn cheesy. They need disadvantages that matter.

Full agreement with you, the disadvantages clearly aren't that bad, well there is the one that eats 1 of your elites, fast attack and heavy support choices, but who takes that! :p

Unclejo
23-02-2008, 16:26
Full agreement with you, the disadvantages clearly aren't that bad, well there is the one that eats 1 of your elites, fast attack and heavy support choices, but who takes that! :p

Ah yes, Faithful Unto Death, which is so fairly balanced when compared to We Stand Alone...

Wuestenfux
23-02-2008, 17:09
Compare the new CSM codex with the intended SM codex changes:
1. GW will delete the trait system, just like they deleted the Veteran skills from the new CSM codex.
2. We can hope that SM Veterans will be made customizable like Chosen in the CSM codex.
3. SM Tacticals will be configured as DA Tacticals and thus will be quite similar to CSM Tacticals.
However, CSM still have more special troops: the four fearless Cult Legions. There should be some compensation for this.

shadows_at_dusk
23-02-2008, 22:45
Not really. 5 man Assault Terminator Squad + Termie Commander or Librarian + Termie Chaplain = pretty full Crusader. If you really want to fill up that last seat, throw in a Techmarine - he's got the same armor save as Terminators, so he'll fit right in.

You have a point there, but that takes up a lot of space in the FOC. I never really thought about the fact that LRC is one of the only vehicles that can fire their sponsons. I really wish they would keep defensive weapons STR 6 or less. If there are problems with Assault cannons or Starcannons they fix them and not just nerf everybody. I guess that is a whole different topic though.

foehammer888
24-02-2008, 00:22
The 5 man termies squads will really make landraider crusaders nearly worthless. Except for the Black Templars... the ones who designed it.

Foehammer

ehlijen
24-02-2008, 01:14
The crusader can also still carry a full 10 man squad with 2 HQ characters and 3 techmarines attached to the unit. Or just one character and a 10 man unit which is still more than any other transport available.

Sir_Turalyon
24-02-2008, 01:52
foehammer888 hit nail by the head, crusader is created and optimalized for non-Codex chapter, it's not surprising that chapters limited by Codex Astrates can't use it to full extent.



It's important to bear in mind one of the reasons behind Jervis' approach to the Dark Angels and Blood Angels lists. They are both essentially 'Codex' Chapters in organisation, with a few ruffles to make them unique - Deathwing, Ravenwing, Death Company are the obvious differences.


This may be a misusing of quote, but I'd like to remind you that people in studio know that not all chapters are Codex Chapters, like Dark or Blood Angels. New codex has to put some emphasis on variety of chapter organisations out there, just like emphasis has been put on Deathwing or Death Company. Chaos Codex might be streamlined as it was only because all cut troops (berserkers and like) were moved to troops; Marines FOC structure is too inflexible for that. I believe eighter doctrines will stay in some form or at least we'll see units moving to troops based on HQ chosen, as in Orks/DA list.

By limiting new codex only to things found in DA and BA codices studio would end up with Codex:Ultramaines, not Codex:Space Marines. I would love to see that kind of limitation placed on Ultramarine armies ;).



1)Combat squads (no more 5 man las/plas squads)

Good thing. Combat squads do have potential to be nasty.


2)Terminators squads are 5 max with only 1 heavy weapon

There may still be option for veteran skill there. Deathwing terminators are fearless and cost one point more then codex ones. Lack of skills on BA terminators means probably their speciality is "contributes Death Co member".

Veterans and Command squads will probably look like DA ones, without fearless, but possibly with option of other veteran skill. Strong improvement here, old omes were overpriced glorified tactical squads.

Techmarines may be simplified as in DA/BA (better starting gear, no options but harness and servitors, not independent character, takes no FOC choices). Dreadnoughts may gain same options as DA ones. Whirlwind may recieve napalm castellan missles instead of minefield layer. Cost of Rhinos / Razorbacks/ Predators / Drop Pods may be lowered / adjusted as in DA codex.

shadows_at_dusk
24-02-2008, 05:20
[QUOTE=Sir_Turalyon;2381809]
By limiting new codex only to things found in DA and BA codices studio would end up with Codex:Ultramaines, not Codex:Space Marines. [QUOTE]

Wow. I could not agree more with this statement! :) I hope they leave a little bit of customizing ability for people who want their space marines to be a little different.

I hope they don't get rid of all the veteran skills. I mean Khorne berzerkers and Orcs get furious charge for crying out loud. Why shouldn't Space marines get it too? I've got a nervous feeling about this new codex. :(

shabbadoo
24-02-2008, 07:00
Expect Termninators to drop to 5-man squads with only one heavy weapon option, going back to the fluff. Temintaors have never operated in 10-man squads that are broken into two groups of 5. Each group of 5 has always been represented as its own squad(usually named after its squad leader). So yes, technically those 10-man squads of Veterans have two sergeants in them when they take to the field equipped with power armor, though it doesn't translate into the game rules whatsoever. This leads to...

Expect Veteran Squads to closely follow the entry in Codex: Dark Angels.

Expect Combat Squads rules and weapon options/limitations similar to those as listed in Codex: Dark Angels for Tactical, Devastator, and Assault Squads.

Expect Scouts to be Elites, with the same options as in Codex: Dark Angels.

Expect wargear options to be limited to HQ choices and Sergeants only(with few or no exceptions).

Stormsender
24-02-2008, 07:58
I don't want scouts to become Elites for Vanilla Marines I have a Marines scout force that will only see use in Apocolypse if that is the case, I definitely won't be happy about that one. Also I would like to see 10 man devastators to be able to use 4 specials weapons instead of 4 heavys. Combat squads I am ok with and actually sounds like a good idea. I would prefere 2 heavys thats the way it was in 2nd edition termy squads becuase of the rending nerf and the increase cost of assault cannons and toops as scoring there really no reason left to reduce the number to 1 in my opinion, but this won't be the case I am almost positive. If the Codex Space Marines gets to watered down I'll just focus on fantasy and my other minitures games and shelf 40k till it's fix or I loose interest completely. Remember if everything was like the fluff one marine could practically destroy whole worlds on his own.

Famder
24-02-2008, 11:05
Scouts won't become Elites for a simple reason. The 10th company. It is supposed to be where there are the most scouts and since it is something nearly all chapters have in common it would be silly of GW to eliminate that choice. I do believe there will be some kind of limitation, making sniper scouts Elites or some silly thing like that, but honestly what unbalancing factor is given if the player intentionally takes troops that die easier? Especially considering that troops are what hold objectives in the new edition according to rumors.

ehlijen
24-02-2008, 13:03
They will become elites for one simple reason: The new infiltration rule that more or less makes all scouts like space wolf scouts (that are already elites). They are not going to let such a customisable troops choice do that. The only infiltrating troops left will be kroot, some IG (both because of their dated codices) and eldar rangers (that will not actually benefit from the new rule that much).
Troops that come in from table edges later in the game and are cery versatile are unbalanced if they can also then take objectives.

Ghal Maraz
24-02-2008, 13:08
Scouts won't become Elites for a simple reason. The 10th company. It is supposed to be where there are the most scouts and since it is something nearly all chapters have in common it would be silly of GW to eliminate that choice.
Well, even tha BA and DA have the 10th company as an all-scout company, but still... And the 1st company is all-Veterans in Codex chapters, and while not every Veteran can be fielded with Terminator armour, they could easily go to battle in power armour, but still Veteran squads are Elite. And the 8th is all-assault and the 9th is all-devastator... See the pattern?
So, I don't think that 10th company= Scout as Troops is necessarily right. It could be the case that GW keeps Scous as Troops in Codex: Space Marines, but not automatically for the reason you give.


Also I would like to see 10 man devastators to be able to use 4 specials weapons instead of 4 heavys. Combat squads I am ok with and actually sounds like a good idea. I would prefere 2 heavys thats the way it was in 2nd edition termy squads becuase of the rending nerf and the increase cost of assault cannons and toops as scoring there really no reason left to reduce the number to 1 in my opinion, but this won't be the case I am almost positive. If the Codex Space Marines gets to watered down I'll just focus on fantasy and my other minitures games and shelf 40k till it's fix or I loose interest completely. Remember if everything was like the fluff one marine could practically destroy whole worlds on his own.

Codex Chapters don't use Devastator squads with special weapons. Devastators are long-range support/siege/behind the line/anti-armour. GW can implement Devastators with specials as non-strictly Codex chapters, but don't expect for it to be the standard.
And, perhaps I am wrong, but I don't seem to remember 2nd ed. Termi squads with 2 heavy weapons. Only Space Wolves could mix-and-match as they wanted, IIRC. Codex Astartes here, one more time.
And no. Marines don't destroy worlds on their own... unless they employ their battle-barges! But that's not the type of scale 40K is played on.

Wuestenfux
24-02-2008, 15:15
Expect Termninators to drop to 5-man squads with only one heavy weapon option, going back to the fluff. Temintaors have never operated in 10-man squads that are broken into two groups of 5. Each group of 5 has always been represented as its own squad(usually named after its squad leader). So yes, technically those 10-man squads of Veterans have two sergeants in them when they take to the field equipped with power armor, though it doesn't translate into the game rules whatsoever. This leads to...

Expect Veteran Squads to closely follow the entry in Codex: Dark Angels.

Expect Combat Squads rules and weapon options/limitations similar to those as listed in Codex: Dark Angels for Tactical, Devastator, and Assault Squads.

Expect Scouts to be Elites, with the same options as in Codex: Dark Angels.

Expect wargear options to be limited to HQ choices and Sergeants only(with few or no exceptions).

One doesn't need to be a prophet that these changes are going to happen. These changes will simplify the rules for the beginners but they are absolutely non-smart for the advanced player. The DA codex is the most boring in the 40k universe. GW should not emphasize so much special characters but keep more emphasis on the important units.

Grand Master Raziel
24-02-2008, 15:55
You have a point there, but that takes up a lot of space in the FOC.

Only one more than a 7-man Assault Termie Squad+Chaplain, or maybe two more if you're willing to use a Termie Command Squad instead of an Assault Termie Squad. That's minus the proposed Techmarine. Frankly, I think it'd be kinda dumb to buy a Techmarine just to fill up that last seat in the Crusader. I just pointed it out because it's an option.

Unclejo
24-02-2008, 16:03
I expect that Marines will either get the option of Bolter or Pistol/CCW. Either that or they will get both as standard, although I think this will make them a bit too versatile. We could then do away with the absurdity of Assault troops without Jump Packs, a foot slogging fast-attack choice...

Famder
24-02-2008, 16:09
Well, even tha BA and DA have the 10th company as an all-scout company, but still...
Which can easily be represented through the Standard SM codex since you don't use those other two chapters's codexes to play their 10th companies. C:SM is meant to be for all the stuff you don't get in the specialty Chapter Codexes.


And the 1st company is all-Veterans in Codex chapters, and while not every Veteran can be fielded with Terminator armour, they could easily go to battle in power armour, but still Veteran squads are Elite. And the 8th is all-assault and the 9th is all-devastator... See the pattern?
And yet they found a way to get very close versions of all represented in the current C:SM, interesting. Simple fixes make this possible in the next version too.

I think they should just do what they did with Templar and have them purchase benefits with points that have drawbacks already included.

Gorbad Ironclaw
24-02-2008, 17:10
The DA codex is the most boring in the 40k universe.


Funny, I thought it was one of the most interesting marine books in years and actually made me return to my Dark Angels and 40k after not having bothered for several years.

Azzy
24-02-2008, 17:21
And, perhaps I am wrong, but I don't seem to remember 2nd ed. Termi squads with 2 heavy weapons.

You're not wrong--I just checked Codex Ultramarines.

Gorbad Ironclaw
24-02-2008, 17:24
And yes, the only termies with multiple heavy weapons was the Wolfguard squads. And those were crazy.

Straha
24-02-2008, 17:36
Funny, I thought it was one of the most interesting marine books in years and actually made me return to my Dark Angels and 40k after not having bothered for several years.

I agree. The recent Dark Angels Codex got rid of lots of one way benefiets for Dark Angels players. It also gave details (and characters) for Ravenwing and Deathwing armies.

The Hunt for the Fallen roll at the beginning of every game. Come on, extra VPs for killing a guy, without any penalty for letting him get away. Also, the whole Asmodai/Blades of Reason VP awards.

The old codex let Dark Angels players gather VPs without any real disadvantages. Once 5th Edition comes out, everything should balance.

One change that would be great, give Terminators the option of taking a multi-melta as a heavy weapons choice.

spacemonkey
24-02-2008, 17:46
One change that would be great, give Terminators the option of taking a multi-melta as a heavy weapons choice.
Funny, I mentioned that say thought to a buddy of mine awhile ago. Terminators would be one of the few platforms that could effectively use the multimelta outside vehicles and bikes.

Kirasu
24-02-2008, 17:49
One change that would be great, give Terminators the option of taking a multi-melta as a heavy weapons choice.
Probably best to focus on what the models currently have.. GW isnt going to allow SM models to take options the new plastic kits dont have (Or if its a popular enough forgeworld model).. Multi melta will never happen because models = rules a lot of the time

Still, would be nice.. Again, I dont see terminators having any use (IE the same as in 3rd edition).. Good thing I didnt buy any more!

Gerrok
24-02-2008, 18:06
I just think that tactical squads should be a 2+ choice. When a full strength chapter is suppose to be comprised of 44% tactical squads, I don't think having 2 squads on the table is too much to ask. Even in small point games.

As far as the scout company goes, it's a training company. The 10th company commander doesn't decide to go out with his company and wage war, he attaches a squad or two to a battle company. Just like the 1st company rarely goes out in force, they attach a squad or two to a battle company that they think will need it.

But that's the problem with how a lot of SM players see thier army. They only look at the background of the individual units and want to go with the most powerful ones, they don't look at it from a battle company standpoint.

Orinoco
24-02-2008, 18:56
One change that would be great, give Terminators the option of taking a multi-melta as a heavy weapons choice.

Oh that would rule. I doubt FW would just sell a single arm though. They could do a terminator weapons set or something, to get it out there. They sell shoulder pads and replacement bodies already...:)

Wazz
24-02-2008, 18:57
Hm.... I hope they modify the traits so they cover the useage of the entire companies... For example, choosing either to play the first company (terminators, veterans and dreads the only choises they can take, with land-raiders as transports) and so forth - with serious drawbacks not like the "you can only take 1 fast attack choice" whoopefukkin' do! I don't want any fast attack choices anyways!

Also, I love the combat squads, no more 7-man tac squads... A tactical squad is 10 man strong, so it has always been (in the fluff anyways)... Then you can split them into combat squads...
Also, i hope to see an increase in WS and BS for termiantors, give them WS and BS 5 as it was in 2nd ed and boost them to 45-50pts and i'm happy happy :)

Right now marines just suck compared to other forces, they should be atleast 5 times more expensive then a guard! But making the game suit the fluff doesn't seem like a priority any more :\

Astartes should be the army that's the most advanced to play, severly outnumbered elite troops is the way the cookie should crumble (as in epic) =P

Carlos
24-02-2008, 19:42
Scounts are an elites choice for that specific reason: there arent as many of them as normal marines. An all-scout army that got massacred would leave a chapter severely depleted. Scouts in the fluff are attached to a battle company or force to provide recon, not attack en-masse. And with the benefits of flank march they make a good elites choice.

Veterans may keep their ability upgrades choice, but anyone thinking terminators will get to be in squads of 10 is mistaken, as again they are a rare unit. Fielding large amounts of them is dangerous, pointless and impossible.

Fists, Iron Warriors, Raven Guard, Salamanders and Ultra's are codex chapters and shpuld be fielded as such. Only white scars deviate that much and even then a ravenwing army can be proxied.

Kirasu
24-02-2008, 20:28
They should just release two traits imo

One that gives furious charge and the other that gives tank hunters cause all the rest in the codex were just filler heh.. Keep it simple by reducing print costs

btw that was sarcasm please do not bombard my inbox with "omg i play a fluffy chapter stfu"

ehlijen
24-02-2008, 23:59
Carlos, I believe you meant to say Iron Hands instead of Iron Warriors :-p

Let's face it: the iconic space marine is the tactical marine. The most versatile trooper in the game at the cost of not excelling at anything (necrons are tougher, tau shoot more, nids firght more...). They personify what the space marines are supposed to be about, the best mankind has to offer, jacks of all trades that can actually accomplish most of them. So why does seemingly everyone not want tactical marines? Don't blame GW for trying to make an army all about it's iconic unit.

jhon
25-02-2008, 02:48
thing i wana see in the new marine dex :

marine wash out [ sevtior ] arm with melta bomb and combi flamer act as cannon fodder .
marine with T5 and 5+ armour save which due to the lack of resourse but with this it make the marine borther fight much harder than a normal marine.
scout with T3 and fleet rule .

RSIxidor
25-02-2008, 02:55
thing i wana see in the new marine dex :

marine wash out [ sevtior ] arm with melta bomb and combi flamer act as cannon fodder.

Is there fluff for this? That is hilarious! I've always wanted to Servitors get more use in all of the different Imperial armies, they're supposedly like the backbone of the Imperium or something. Universal slave, amirite?



marine with T5 and 5+ armour save which due to the lack of resource but with this it make the marine brother fight much harder than a normal marine.
scout with T3 and fleet rule .

Strange thoughts.

shadows_at_dusk
25-02-2008, 03:44
One doesn't need to be a prophet that these changes are going to happen. These changes will simplify the rules for the beginners but they are absolutely non-smart for the advanced player. The DA codex is the most boring in the 40k universe. GW should not emphasize so much special characters but keep more emphasis on the important units.

Yep! You're speaking the truth here!


I just think that tactical squads should be a 2+ choice. When a full strength chapter is suppose to be comprised of 44% tactical squads, I don't think having 2 squads on the table is too much to ask. Even in small point games.

While this would not be a bad idea and I could live with it. I think a better option would be to leave scouts as troops so they are not competing for my precious Elite FOC slots and treat scouts the same way Witchhunters/Demonhunters treat inducted guard... that is, that you may not take them as compulsory choices. This would force people to take at least 2 squads of Tactical marines and still allow people who want a heavier scout theme to their army to have a build they like. In addition this would allow scouts to hold objectives, which I whole-heartedly agree with.


Let's face it: the iconic space marine is the tactical marine. The most versatile trooper in the game at the cost of not excelling at anything (necrons are tougher, tau shoot more, nids firght more...). They personify what the space marines are supposed to be about, the best mankind has to offer, jacks of all trades that can actually accomplish most of them. So why does seemingly everyone not want tactical marines?

For me the reason for this is that IMO they are not very customizable, are somewhat tactically boring and the models are not as visually interesting as many of the other elements of the army.

Straha
25-02-2008, 03:52
Probably best to focus on what the models currently have.. GW isnt going to allow SM models to take options the new plastic kits dont have (Or if its a popular enough forgeworld model).. Multi melta will never happen because models = rules a lot of the time

Still, would be nice.. Again, I dont see terminators having any use (IE the same as in 3rd edition).. Good thing I didnt buy any more!


And that's too bad, because Terminators are great models and, if used correctly, can be very fluffy. A Terminator squad with a single mutli-melta and whatever powerfists/thunderhammers would be sweet. Yeah Salamanders players, I'm looking to you.

The conversion wouldn't be too tough. The Terminators heavy flamer model combined with the speeder multi-melta should be fairly easy.

Maybe then we would start seeing more multi-meltas. The Space Marine armies around here don't play them much. Actually, I don't see many Terminator Squads taking the heavy flamer option either.

Why?

Because it sucks. Even if the mighty assault cannon was not a Terminator heavy weapons choice, heavy flamers would still suck.

Occulto
25-02-2008, 04:01
So why does seemingly everyone not want tactical marines?

Because other choices in the codex get more shooting and combat toys. :rolleyes:

Hence the lists that take 2 x minimum sized scout squads. Spend as little as possible on the "boring" stuff, and cram in the heavy weapons and powerfists.

I wouldn't care if people could take scouts as compulsory Troop choices providing the rules allowed it for theme, rather than because people wanted to spend as little on Troops as possible. I think 10th Company armies are cool, I don't think the "min scout units because I don't want to spend anything on Troops" armies are worth the paper they're written on.


Hm.... I hope they modify the traits so they cover the useage of the entire companies... For example, choosing either to play the first company (terminators, veterans and dreads the only choises they can take, with land-raiders as transports) and so forth - with serious drawbacks not like the "you can only take 1 fast attack choice" whoopefukkin' do! I don't want any fast attack choices anyways!

Agreed. Drawbacks need to be actual drawbacks.


Also, i hope to see an increase in WS and BS for termiantors, give them WS and BS 5 as it was in 2nd ed and boost them to 45-50pts and i'm happy happy :)

I completely disagree with this. WS4 is already superhuman, WS5 should be reserved for legendary figures like HQs.

Occulto
25-02-2008, 04:05
Because it sucks. Even if the mighty assault cannon was not a Terminator heavy weapons choice, heavy flamers would still suck.

...until you incinerate an entire firewarrior squad cowering in cover. ;)

Combine them with teleporter homers for maximum effect. Big Ork mobs just evaporate.

Straha
25-02-2008, 04:14
...until you incinerate an entire firewarrior squad cowering in cover. ;)
Combine them with teleporter homers for maximum effect. Big Ork mobs just evaporate.

Yeah, but marines with flamers can get the same job done for cheaper. A 10 count Marine tactical should cost less and still do a lot of damage. Still, I do love my cleanse & purify Salamanders against my friend's Tau. His Kroot (aka fried chickens) don't.

I guess it comes down to whatever makes you happy.

Wazz
25-02-2008, 05:33
I completely disagree with this. WS4 is already superhuman, WS5 should be reserved for legendary figures like HQs.

I disagree =) Or well, i concur. But terminators are these legendary figures - they have the experience, i promise the sergant of a terminator squad has more experience then say the 6th company captain - the veterans should be veterans :)

jhon
25-02-2008, 06:42
Is there fluff for this? That is hilarious! I've always wanted to Servitors get more use in all of the different Imperial armies, they're supposedly like the backbone of the Imperium or something. Universal slave, amirite?



Strange thoughts.

well... you always saw servitor cleaning the sm's weapon in the heat of battle , why not using them as cannon fodder in some dire situtions ?

not really,try to picture a squad of space marine wear nothing expect their underpent holding a bolter and a chapter banner in their hands . that is what i call mandom ..:evilgrin: sexy ..

BrainFireBob
25-02-2008, 07:06
Currently, I'm using DA while waiting for the new SM dex. I recommend trying it to the doubting Thomases, it works quite nicely.

Also, to the gent stating that fluffwise, Scouts should be a horde because "they don't count toward the 1000 man limit"- actually, they do.

jhon
25-02-2008, 07:10
I disagree =) Or well, i concur. But terminators are these legendary figures - they have the experience, i promise the sergant of a terminator squad has more experience then say the 6th company captain - the veterans should be veterans :)

i dont know men , cos you have to be a veteran first inorder to become a company captain . and the LD 9 is already stand out for being a vet . BS 5 maybe ?

Occulto
25-02-2008, 07:13
I disagree =) Or well, i concur. But terminators are these legendary figures - they have the experience, i promise the sergant of a terminator squad has more experience then say the 6th company captain - the veterans should be veterans :)

:D

I'm just skeptical of people who want to keep boosting stats to make them more and more uber.

Problem is, stats with 4 are now seen as "average" when they're actually supposed to be "above average" Of course, with every second person playing SM or CSM, people's perceptions get a little distorted. :p

If only GW had gone with a d10 system. It would've allowed so many more variations in stats. Catachans, for example, should probably be about toughness 3.5 but we're not going to see that in a hurry.

shabbadoo
25-02-2008, 12:07
There are still a lot of people whishlisting. Might as well face the fact that the DA and BA codexes are based off of the upcoming Codex: Space Marines template. What I posted earlier was not some "prophetic utterance from atop the soapbox". Most people do indeed know this is what will happen, yet still we have people wondering if Scouts and Termintors will be changed. Either they simply don't know that these things will be the case, or they are still in a literal state of denial(or are plugging their ears with their fingers and yelling "I can't here you Lalalalalalalalalala! I can't hear you!"). Basic stats won't change, and basic options won't change.

By the way, I didn't find the DA codex boring whatsoever. It got rid of most of the things that didn't work very well(already mentioned by a few posters above), and brought some new things to the list of options. I did find that some of the options in the codex are a bit squirrely, but the codex isn't boring by any means.

Grand Master Raziel
25-02-2008, 15:52
The old codex let Dark Angels players gather VPs without any real disadvantages.

Of course, that wasn't really all that helpful back in the 3rd ed. day, when that mini-dex was written.



But that's the problem with how a lot of SM players see thier army. They only look at the background of the individual units and want to go with the most powerful ones, they don't look at it from a battle company standpoint.

I don't think that's a phenomenon unique to Space Marine players. I think all armies have an equal percentage of players who write their army lists in that fashion.



For me the reason for this is that IMO they are not very customizable, are somewhat tactically boring and the models are not as visually interesting as many of the other elements of the army.

Depends on how you make them. One nice thing about collecting Space Marines is that all the power-armored bitz are basically compatable with each other. So, you can mix-and-match them to achieve some interesting effects, without having worry about sculpting. Here's a photo to illustrate what I mean:

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii130/Grand_Master_Raziel/Night%20Angels/DSC00581.jpg

Here's how I made each guy, from left to right:

1: The leftmost guy, I call Tex, for the obvious reason. His left arm is actually one of the power weapon arms from the Space Wolf Accessory Sprue with the power weapon cut off, and a bolter glued into its place. The right arm is an Assault Marine arm, cut and repositioned so the gun points more to the right, with the location of the cut hidden by the shoulder pad. The rest of him is made of SM Tac Squad bitz.

2: To the right of Tex is a running Marine with a flamer. His legs are from an Assault Marine, the rest is Tac Squad bitz, positioned to give him a strong running pose.

3: Next to the right is one of my first conversions, done years ago. Every single part of this guy is from a Tac Squad box set. His right arm is a sergeant's arm. His left arm is a regular bolter-toter left arm, with the hand cut off at the wrist and re-glued in the position you see. I trimmed the magazine off a bolter and glued it into the hand so it looks like it's out of ammo and he's about to smack somebody upside the head with it.

4: In the middle is Sgt. Sariel. His head is from a SM Commander box set, his right arm is an Assault Squad power fist, and his left is a regular bolter-toting left arm, but holding an auspex instead of a bolter.

5: Immediately to Sariel's right is a Marine shooting a bolter with his left hand and getting ready to throw a grenade with his right. Both his arms are from the Assault Squad box. I trimmed the bolt pistol off the extended arm and glued the bolter in its place.

6: To the right of that guy is my beakie with bolter and combat knife. The hand with the knife is a regular SM Tac Squad right hand, positioned normally, but with the knife glued into place instead of the bolter. I actually don't remember where I got the other arm, but it's probably another extended Assault Squad arm with a bolter instead of a bp, just pointing downwards instead of extended out in a being-fired pose.

7: Last one on the right is my other Marine wielding a bolter and combat knife. Again, all regular Tac Squad bitz except for the hand with the knife, which I believe is another of those Assault Squad arms.

Straha
25-02-2008, 16:57
Nice marine Raziel.

I agree about Marines being very customizable, making for interesting figures.

sean_scanlon2000
25-02-2008, 17:32
okay you guys have not considered what they are doing to guard yet have you.. rumors have it that the guard will be getting more doctrines so who is to say that the same will not happen to the marines? could it be that if you take X trait that you will have to take Y disadvantage? that would make sense because one of the problems with the system now is that they are not enough disadvantages or advantages. perhaps they will make more of each but make it so that they have a required disadvantage so you will no longer have an army taking eye to eye when it does not use speeders to begin with. the trait system will change but presumable to be balanced as opposed to its current status. as for the bolter and close combat weapon along with a bolt pistol like in chaos i doubt that will happen unfortunatly so i see the trait trust your battle brother being a more popular one. though i woudl personally like to see the marines get the same set up as chaos for 15 points. as for the scouts... they have a scout company and its the 10th company. though i doubt they would ever be truly used remember most marines deploy their battle company as well as select units from each of their reserve companies when they deploy in mass. you would not see the scouts moving out to engage in combat on their own. and they do count towards the 1000 marine body limit as well if you read the organization there are 10 companies... each company is 100 strong... where the bulk of a chapter would be made up is more likely to be in support staff as well as auxillaria.. remember the novices that did not make it tend to stick around if they werent killed and do serve in roles deemed not important enough to use a battle brother for.

so dont worry to much about the complete removal of the traits they will change but they need to be there to allow for the creation of players own chapters remember you are able to make your own chapter and i dont see them removing that. but what i have heard is the necessity for a force commander.. so you will no longer be seeing the double chaplains or librarians.. personally i have always run a force commander because thats who leads a company for a reason. the librarians and chaplians have a purpose but they do not lead a company. so look to see more emphasis on the force commander. possibly as stated the traits will only be used through takign him which i would not mind. i just hope that people dont freak out or complain to much.. the new edition is to balance the game more so just remember that no army is gettign nerfed.. as for the speeders being crap... 1/3 of the time you can completel ignore a hit.. so why not look around and actualy think of how to modify your armies to what ever happens with 5th edition.

Bunnahabhain
25-02-2008, 18:53
Sean scanlon, please capitalise, space and punctuate your post better. I'm sure it has good points in it, but we can't read it at the moment..

Mireadur
25-02-2008, 20:04
Because it sucks. Even if the mighty assault cannon was not a Terminator heavy weapons choice, heavy flamers would still suck.

Flamers (and specially heavy ones) own... Problem is that the AC is better in most of the situations.. specially when you can carry 2 of them.

shadows_at_dusk
26-02-2008, 00:37
@ Grand Master Raziel

Those marines are very well done and very dynamic. Nice job!

Does anyone have any idea how things will be about the termie command squads? I don't usually play games smaller than 2000 points. I have the Red Scorpions Termie commander Culn, w/ temie command squad (Assault Cannon & Heavy Flamer) plus attached termie chaplain and termie librarian mounted in a Land Raider Crusader. I really love those terminator models. That is about all of the termies I could afford but then when I play Apocalypse I also take a 5 man assault termie squad mounted in a land raider! I am afraid my command squad is going to have to be changed beyond recogniton. If termies can will only be able to have 1 special weapon, I will have to drop one but I am not sure which one it will be. I can live with that but, I hope they don't take away the ability to attach a librarian and chaplain to the command squad though. :(

I also have 2 squads of tactical marines and a large squad of scout snipers. With the changes I have been hearing about. I may have to completely reconfigure my army. Since all the models have resin bases and forgeworld parts, that is seriously gonna suck for me!

Straha
26-02-2008, 04:00
Flamers (and specially heavy ones) own... Problem is that the AC is better in most of the situations.. specially when you can carry 2 of them.

Sorry, I'm just not a big fan of heavy flamer terminators. Like you just said, assault cannons are better in most situations.

Terminators are points expensive, and should have access to several heavy weapon choices. We're now looking at three choices; assault cannons, heavy flamers, and the cyclone missile launcher.

If they're going to "nerf" assault cannons, it would be cool to give terminators more heavy weapon options.

And for the record, I agree with the assault cannon "nerf".

shadows_at_dusk
26-02-2008, 05:37
And for the record, I agree with the assault cannon "nerf".

Is the "nerf" the fact that rending has been toned down or is there something else too?

Mireadur
26-02-2008, 08:59
rending toned down plus price increase in AC's (what shouldnt have been necessary after rending nerf) in DA/ BA codexes

Jarrah
26-02-2008, 09:28
Well I just hope that they make it abit more flexible than BA because thats was the only thing that sort of dissapointed me about the new codex

Bestiaparda
26-02-2008, 10:25
Thinking about the rumour that the options your captain have, the options your troop gets, I´ve tried to put all the traits in the captains, because that is the way that people will play captains instead of chaplains or librarians:

-Your captain have jumpack, assault marines become troops
-Your captain have terminator armour, teminators become troops
-Your captain is mounted on bike, bikers become troops
-Your captain is the lord of the 10th company, scouts become troops
-Your captain have furious charge, your troops can get furious charge
-And so on...

Maybe instead of a captain full of options GW choose to use special characters, so Alcaudon uses assault marines as troops, Lysander uses termis as troops... Thats the idea on codex orks, bosses allow nobs as troops, mekaniks allow Deff Dread as troop...


I think also that techmarines will get a boost (or at least his servitors could walk and fire).
And thinking about the nerf of the rending I believe that we will see more heavy flamers in termis... And GW could redo the rules for cyclone because now is completely useless and very expensive...

Angelus Mortis
26-02-2008, 10:42
I think an easy way to fix traits would be by including an option in company captains that mess with the Force Org, like Belial or Sammael.

I think an easy fix would be to keep a trait system and actually put more than 20 minutes thought into it. I mean, how long do we wait for a codex? And they cant find enough time to playtest or think things out a bit? Uh-huh...I mean, when the 4e C:SM came out, I would say 90% of players within a week of casual (casual, not "this is my job and all I do all day like GW") reading and playing figured out all the loopholes, advantages, redundancies, typos, and vague wordings as well as the blatant descrepancies (BSATW springs to mind). Now if we can do that in a week of casual use, I would fully expect someone with the title "AUTHOR" or "GAME DEVELOPER" to be able to put a little more effort and thought into it. I dont think thats an un-realistic expectation.

shabbadoo
26-02-2008, 10:43
okay you guys have not considered what they are doing to guard yet have you..

Some us may have(as we play them), but we haven't discussed it yet here as this is the "Codex Space Marines 5th Edition" thread and not the "Codex Space Marines AND CODEX IMPERIAL GUARD 5th Edition" thread. It is a bit off topic.

Codex: Imperial Guard 5e is a bit farther off than Codex Space Marines 5e anyways, and besides which it is a topic worthy of its own thread.

Regarding the comparison between Codex Chaos Space Marines and what could possible be a mirroring of it in Codex Space Marines, it could very well be a good sign that Codex Chaos Space Marines includes stats for the main characters of the traitor legions. If the Imperials follow that model, we ought to see characters for most of the Loyalist chapters too that are not intended to have a separate codex of their own; at least those that are popular or are of the First Founding. There are 7 chaos characters, with a total of 10 pages devoted to them including 3 pages comprised completely of art and fluff. That same page count could be given to 10 Loyalist characters. Sure, Ultramarines will nab 2 or 3 of those pages(Marneus, Tigurius, and maybe one more) but that would still leave 7 pages. They could cram a pretty nice bunch of Codex Astartes themed chapter characters in that amount of space at one page apiece (Raven Guard, Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Salamanders, Iron Hands, White Scars, Blood Ravens). I hope for the sake of those who play those chapters(which I don't) that they get even the slightest bit of attention. It is usually all it takes to make most everyone happy. Codex Chaos Space Marines is roughly 15 pages bigger than Codex Dark Angels, but then it is covering more material. I hope that Codex Space Marines is at least this big as well. Those extra 15 or so pages would do a world of good if given over to providing some cool stuff for chapters that won't get their own individual codex.

If any HQ messes with the FOC it will be a named character, and only if it is characteristic of the chapter in question. Taking Shrike enables Assault Squads to be taken as TROOPS is a no-brainer example. A commander taking a certain piece of wargear = a unit type being made TROOPS isn't going to happen. This is meant to be a Codex Astartes type of book anyways, not a make whatever the heck type of chapter you want to type of book. It will be interesting to see if any trait-like options will be made available, even if only through the use of named characters, which is still an unknown at this point. Nobody has spilled any of the beans so far. Start wining and dining those rumor mongers those of you who know them. :D

Halfpast_Yellow
26-02-2008, 13:07
I would be quite disappointed if the 5th ed codex had named characters which allowed Bikes, Terminators or Assault Marines to be taken as Troops.

We already have those, they're called 'Codex Dark Angels' and 'Codex Blood Angels'.

Again, I would be disappointed if we got a reprint of Shrike or Lysander.

The Blood Angels Codex is very suitable for a Raven Guard force which utilizes Shrike and his wing. Assault Marines are available as Troops, and the Death Company makes a nice 'Shrikes wing', or perhaps the various Veteran Assault Marine units on offer are suitable as well.

In a similar way, Lysander and his first company Imperial fists can be nicely fielded using the Belial and Deathwing Assault rules, with the Termies able to fill Troops choice slots.


I'd love to see some new 'famous chapter' characters that bring unique army traits and character for said Chapter.

eg, Iron Hands Techmarine/Commander fellow, with servo gear, allows a Dreadnought as Troops choice, or the current as Heavies trait, etc.

Crimson Fist who confers preferred enemy Orks to a unit he joins.

Blood Ravens Librarian (Tiggy is getting a bit tired)

etc.

Anyone who then wanted to play their own take on the techno-freak force, Ork hating chapter, or psyker heavy chapter could using the magic of 'counts as'.

Basically, a distillation of the best part about the traits system, without the actual messy crap that the current traits system is.

Wargamejunkie
26-02-2008, 14:06
Well, personally I think they will do something like the ork codex.

If you take X then 1 Y will count as a troop choice.

Simple and allows for a little customization without too much hassle. Which seems to be the going trend.

Dosadi
26-02-2008, 14:14
How about Space Marine Commanders allowing you to take either scouts or terminators as troops?


Dosadi

sean_scanlon2000
26-02-2008, 16:03
Sorry was on a school computer in the library. what i was trying to get at was that for imperial guard the rumors were that they were giving them more doctrines. i was implying that the could be a solution to the marines codex issues. By allowing more traits but linking thoes to certian draw backs. ie if you want to take trait A you must take disadvantage C this would be similar to what happens with the current guard codex where you loose options by simply taking an advantage. this will make it so that if you really want to take a vertian advantage you will have to take the disadvantage associated with it. thats one of the major flaws with the current trait system you can take traits that dont really hurt your army what so ever. by making a trait system that has built in instant draw backs you will fix that problem.

also the whole use dark angels codex and blood angles codex... how about no they do not represent the other chapters and are not ment for that. shrikes wing and lysanders companies are ment to be codex chapters not drawn from either of thoes books not only does it not make sense fluff wise but it sits wrong in the pit of common sense. the DA are seperate from other Astartes chapters for a reason. and lysander already has his points costs and does not take termis as troops thats a belial only trait. lysander simply gives you the all termies come in on one roll. thats his deal.. he is not belial nor should he be used like belial. same with shrike he is his own character with rending lightning claws... why shoudl he have to use another Ba characters stats? he surely is not dante nor is he mephestone so what are u ssayng that he should be nerfed.

Angelus Mortis
26-02-2008, 16:37
Sorry was on a school computer in the library. what i was trying to get at was that for imperial guard the rumors were that they were giving them more doctrines. i was implying that the could be a solution to the marines codex issues. By allowing more traits but linking thoes to certian draw backs. ie if you want to take trait A you must take disadvantage C this would be similar to what happens with the current guard codex where you loose options by simply taking an advantage. this will make it so that if you really want to take a vertian advantage you will have to take the disadvantage associated with it. thats one of the major flaws with the current trait system you can take traits that dont really hurt your army what so ever. by making a trait system that has built in instant draw backs you will fix that problem.

also the whole use dark angels codex and blood angles codex... how about no they do not represent the other chapters and are not ment for that. shrikes wing and lysanders companies are ment to be codex chapters not drawn from either of thoes books not only does it not make sense fluff wise but it sits wrong in the pit of common sense. the DA are seperate from other Astartes chapters for a reason. and lysander already has his points costs and does not take termis as troops thats a belial only trait. lysander simply gives you the all termies come in on one roll. thats his deal.. he is not belial nor should he be used like belial. same with shrike he is his own character with rending lightning claws... why shoudl he have to use another Ba characters stats? he surely is not dante nor is he mephestone so what are u ssayng that he should be nerfed.

Well said and I agree. I cant add much to this except my concurance.

Halfpast_Yellow
26-02-2008, 16:40
Erm yes they are meant for that. Regarding the unique characters 'Counts as' is even stated in the DA codex. It doesn't take a big leaps of logic to go from

My successor chapter the so-and-so are using the Dark Angel Codex and this model in Terminator Armour with a Thunder Hammer and Storm shield is named Captain McSmashy and counts as using the 'Belial' profile.

to

My successor chapter the so-and-so are using the Dark Angel Codex and this model in Terminator Armour with a Thunder Hammer and Storm shield is is named Captain McSmashy and counts as using the 'Belial' profile.

to

My chapter the so-and-so Imperial Fists are using the Dark Angel Codex and this model in Terminator Armour with a Thunder Hammer and Storm shield is named Captain McSmashy Lysander and counts as using the 'Belial' profile.

I'll let you work out how Shrike and the Raven wing can reconcile with the Blood Angel Codex yourself..


Sigh, to put it another way because you (and by the sounds of it Angelus Mortis as well) probably won't 'get' it.

You like the fluff for the whole Lysander and the Imperial fists first company deal, a whole bunch of hardcore terminators teleporting in from the Phalanx, lead by battle hardened Captain Lysander. You own the army with representative models in it, Lysander and a bunch of Terminators, some scouts as well.

However 5th Ed SM Codex comes out and there's no room for Lysander. GW want to bring in new characters both to release new models for and have rules which incorporate the best ideas and aspects of the old trait system which is getting dropped because it's a piece of crap.

What do you do? Well you'll probably still be able to field most your models with the 5th ed codex using the Marine Commander entry for Lysander and maxing out your elites. However you're losing Lysander's rule, your Terminator heavy army has problems with the 5th ed ruleset because they aren't scoring units, and you're struggling to fit the scouts in now they're elites too.

The smart 40k player with the 4th ed Lysander army is going to pick up the Dark Angels Codex, realise that Belial with Storm Shield/Thunder Hammer option is a good fit for the Lysander model, realise that he can field his Terminators as Troops and scoring units, realise he can fit his Scouts into his army, realise that 'Deathwing Assault' and Lysander's special rule can equivalate to the same thing fluffwise, and enjoy a few side benefits like Fearless, mix and match weaponry and better Terminator Command squads.

The same goes for anyone who wants to theme a Terminator heavy army really. Belial has a decent amount of weaponry options for a character and it's not unreasonable for someone who wants to field lots of Terminators in 5th ed and therefore probably want them as Troops, to have to take a Captain in Terminator armour. All the rules are already right there for it.

...And SM Bike heavy armies
...And SM Assault Troop heavy armies

Angelus Mortis
26-02-2008, 17:03
Erm yes they are meant for that. Regarding the unique characters 'Counts as' is even stated in the DA codex. It doesn't take a big leaps of logic to go from

My successor chapter the so-and-so are using the Dark Angel Codex and this model in Terminator Armour with a Thunder Hammer and Storm shield is named Captain McSmashy and counts as using the 'Belial' profile.

to

My successor chapter the so-and-so are using the Dark Angel Codex and this model in Terminator Armour with a Thunder Hammer and Storm shield is is named Captain McSmashy and counts as using the 'Belial' profile.

to

My chapter the so-and-so Imperial Fists are using the Dark Angel Codex and this model in Terminator Armour with a Thunder Hammer and Storm shield is named Captain McSmashy Lysander and counts as using the 'Belial' profile.

I'll let you work out how Shrike and the Raven wing can reconcile with the Blood Angel Codex yourself..

Sounds great. So lets just take C:SM and counts as for every Chapter to include Chaos. :rolleyes:

Halfpast_Yellow
26-02-2008, 17:11
Sounds great. So lets just take C:SM and counts as for every Chapter to include Chaos. :rolleyes:

:eyebrows:

Sure thing 'Captain'. (http://xs217.xs.to/xs217/07284/CaptainHyperbole!.jpg)

Straha
26-02-2008, 17:56
Is the "nerf" the fact that rending has been toned down or is there something else too?

That rending has been toned down. Space Marine players can go to town with the assault cannon options. I know I did.:)

Yes, I'm the git who ran 9 assault cannon speeders with 3 whirlwinds against my friend's hoardy as hell 'nids.

I did it and I liked it. :)

shabbadoo
26-02-2008, 17:57
Another option is to instead of using named characters for variations is to introduce some chapter archetypes instead. Similar to traits but set in stone so to speak. Either you play vanilla or you take a set package of options suited to representing a certain chapter(and its successors).

GW won't pass up featuring Ultramrines as *the* Space Marine chapter, so I expect Marneus and Tigurius at the very least to be in the codex, mainly as there are miniatures specifically for them. Add Lysander in there too on that account, as well as Shrike. Other than that the door is wide open to introduce as many as a half dozen more named characters from other chapters, which would be a major selling point in my opinion.


How about Space Marine Commanders allowing you to take either scouts or terminators as troops?

Dosadi

Damn you and your flippant posts Dosadi! You're going to make people's heads explode! Everybody take your ritalin now. :D

shadows_at_dusk
26-02-2008, 23:56
That rending has been toned down. Space Marine players can go to town with the assault cannon options. I know I did.:)

Yes, I'm the git who ran 9 assault cannon speeders with 3 whirlwinds against my friend's hoardy as hell 'nids.

I did it and I liked it. :)

That is a lot of assault cannons! :) I wouldn't have any complaint doing up against that army. Maybe Assault cannons were a bit too good for their points...meh! Never bothered me. I only recently started running marines and although I do have 2 assault cannons in my army, I never thought they we the "be all / end all" weapon of doom! Hey to each his own!

globalsmack
27-02-2008, 00:20
For some reason i feel the black Templars will soon be very popular again. 2 Assault caanons for 5 termies. 6 man las plas squads. Customizable HQ characters. I can't see the temps getting a redo anytime soon.

Straha
27-02-2008, 00:26
That is a lot of assault cannons! :) I wouldn't have any complaint doing up against that army. Maybe Assault cannons were a bit too good for their points...meh! Never bothered me. I only recently started running marines and although I do have 2 assault cannons in my army, I never thought they we the "be all / end all" weapon of doom! Hey to each his own!

It really was ugly. His gaunts and 'stealers just evaporated under the speeder assault cannon fire. Factor in three whirlwind striking a single target..... It wasn't pretty.

If it makes you feel better, he runs some really nasty armies, too.

shadows_at_dusk
27-02-2008, 00:40
It really was ugly. His gaunts and 'stealers just evaporated under the speeder assault cannon fire. Factor in three whirlwind striking a single target..... It wasn't pretty.

If it makes you feel better, he runs some really nasty armies, too.

Sounds like a game I would have like to have seen! :)

I wonder if anyone in my area has an army like that! I think I would like to give it a whirl and see how I fared against the assault cannons of doom!


I know this one will probably never happen, but IMO terminators should be able to assault the turn that they deepstrike. I mean it's mot like they have to drop don in grave chutes or tunnel out of the ground or anything. They are just teleported right to the spot they need to be.

shabbadoo
27-02-2008, 08:40
Nah. Won't happen.

Besides, the enemy knows where the Terminators will show up because of the group of red triangles that appear at the target area, so the enemy is alwys ready to counter them. All the Terminators can do in response is shoot them, as they have no opportunity to immediately assault. :p

Striking Dragon
27-02-2008, 10:21
I for one wouldn't mind seeing scouts as elites. The main reason being there are only a hundred of them in a chapter; also, they fill a specialized role in the chapter and aren't meant to hold the main battle line.

On the other hand, I'm really hoping for some option of veteran skilled or elite devastators! (something tells me I'll be disappointed :()

Angelus Mortis
27-02-2008, 10:37
I for one wouldn't mind seeing scouts as elites. The main reason being there are only a hundred of them in a chapter; also, they fill a specialized role in the chapter and aren't meant to hold the main battle line.

I agree. The thought of a Chapter committing all of their new recruits en-masse is quite ridiculous. They are assigned to the 10th Company for training and administrative reasons only. Much like the 6-9th, they do not fight as a unit. They are detached and then attached to where they are needed to support Battle Companies, much like the Chapters vehicles. Vehicles also do not belong to the Companies nor do Dreadnaughts. They are assigned as the mission needs. Scouts as Elites is exactly where they should be.

Oligarch
27-02-2008, 13:14
I agree. The thought of a Chapter committing all of their new recruits en-masse is quite ridiculous. They are assigned to the 10th Company for training and administrative reasons only. Much like the 6-9th, they do not fight as a unit. They are detached and then attached to where they are needed to support Battle Companies, much like the Chapters vehicles. Vehicles also do not belong to the Companies nor do Dreadnaughts. They are assigned as the mission needs. Scouts as Elites is exactly where they should be.

I can certainly agree with your fluff argumentation. From a game balance perspective, we'd better be thrown a bone if GW takes away the only semi-reasonably priced troops choice SM's have, leaving us looking like bloody Necrons with a single Troops entry.
:rolleyes: There's a reason Necrons are the only xenos to not have a presence in my local games club :o

Grand Master Raziel
27-02-2008, 13:41
For some reason i feel the black Templars will soon be very popular again. 2 Assault caanons for 5 termies. 6 man las plas squads. Customizable HQ characters. I can't see the temps getting a redo anytime soon.

I've had that thought, too. I don't think the BT rules will be good to make a SAFH, because they don't have Dev Squads, and even a single casualty on any given squad will make them move, so they can't reliably be kept in cover. AC-spam, on the other hand...

Angelus Mortis
27-02-2008, 14:12
Wow. You guys are very optimistic that they arent just going to toss in an entry in the C:SM that says "This is the new BT list, just use these traits." We wont know till it gets a little closer to release. I mean, look what they did with BA/DA/SW etc with the release of the last Codex. You had to use the FAQs in conjunction with the codex to have a legal list.

Neo799
27-02-2008, 14:40
For some reason i feel the black Templars will soon be very popular again. 2 Assault caanons for 5 termies. 6 man las plas squads. Customizable HQ characters. I can't see the temps getting a redo anytime soon.

That reason might have to do with you playing idiot powergamers. My sympathies.

Personally, if someone who played a particular marine chapter shows up one day saying he now uses BT rules, I will openly question his true motivations for playing the game.

Homer S
27-02-2008, 15:41
Wow. You guys are very optimistic that they arent just going to toss in an entry in the C:SM that says "This is the new BT list, just use these traits." We wont know till it gets a little closer to release. I mean, look what they did with BA/DA/SW etc with the release of the last Codex. You had to use the FAQs in conjunction with the codex to have a legal list.

It might be a WD redux: reprint the BT special rules/organizations/units and then use the units as redone for C:SM. Just like they said "BA are a lot like DA, at least they were in 2nd. So since we just redid SM and BT are a lot like SM, here is your nice WD codex and all SM are powered alike."

Homer

Straha
28-02-2008, 00:57
That is a lot of assault cannons! :) I wouldn't have any complaint doing up against that army. Maybe Assault cannons were a bit too good for their points...meh! Never bothered me. I only recently started running marines and although I do have 2 assault cannons in my army, I never thought they we the "be all / end all" weapon of doom! Hey to each his own!

They aren't, but used with a heavy bolter on a speedy platform, assault cannons are filthy. It also depends on what you're playing against. I wouldn't run 9 speeders heavy bolters/assault cannons against Tau, because they (speeders) are too fragile.

I ran them against my friend's "nids and Dark Angels, but we usually "tool up" against each other. You should see the stuff he throws at me.

Gazak Blacktoof
29-02-2008, 13:25
It would be nice to see a unit of marines, like assault marines, have access to some CC upgrades such as power weapons, and not have them reserved just for sergeants

Where does that leave terminators then?

Assault Squads are now an assault equivalent of the Tactical Marine not a Space Marine varient of the Howling Banshees. I don't think we'll see a return to 2nd edition Assault Squads where every model could be equipped with a specialist close combat weapon.

Kirasu
29-02-2008, 13:57
same place they've been since 2nd edition.. a shelf

Without 2 heavy weapons I cant see them being able to dish out anything close to a respectable amount of fire power compared to a tactical sqauad

Gazak Blacktoof
29-02-2008, 15:09
Terminators aren't meant to be mega death dealers IMO. They're survivable, versatile and compact.

Too much firepower for terminators leaves devastators out in the cold particularly with the current assault cannon rules.

From a background perspective terminators are designed to fight in close quarter engagements in hives, hulks, etc. Too many heavy weapons leaves the unit at a disadvantage, you can club somebody with a storm bolter but the tech marines aren't going to be too happy with you slamming the mechanical end of an assault cannon into chitinous aliens even if you can swing it round before they bite your face off.

I'd like to see some improved rules for the cyclone. Using a cyclone at a moderate range in conjunction with storm bolters would allow the terminators to be able to shine in a suppport role, engaging the enemy with good firepower anywhere within 24" whilst remaining mobile and proof to counter assaults as they move on an objective.

Mr.terminatorbob
01-03-2008, 03:05
all I want to keep is my two heavy weapons for my terminators and the traits...thats all. I do NOT want to remove my cyclone missle launchers off two of my models...

jhon
01-03-2008, 03:11
That reason might have to do with you playing idiot powergamers. My sympathies.

Personally, if someone who played a particular marine chapter shows up one day saying he now uses BT rules, I will openly question his true motivations for playing the game.

better than shows up with an army of hello kitty doll and saids they are BT ..:rolleyes:

Kirasu
01-03-2008, 03:19
Terminators arent even that survivable because they're 40pts which is almost 3 marines

I rather have 3 marines over 1 terminator.. Thats 3 wounds, 6 bolt shots vs 2 at 12" (or 3 at 24 vs 2) and possibly 10 men vs 5

They're not even that compact considering they're on a 40mm base so they take up almost double the space.. So double the space but half the squad size = same size.. The new blast rules used to *help* large bases now they just get butchered even easier by plasma cannons or large blasts

Their armor isnt useful in CC cause of power weapons

Again, GW hasnt been able to make one of the iconic units of the game remotely useful without 2x rending assault cannons and I dont see them getting any smarter about them

Straha
02-03-2008, 21:16
Well, personally I think they will do something like the ork codex.

If you take X then 1 Y will count as a troop choice.

Simple and allows for a little customization without too much hassle. Which seems to be the going trend.

That would be really cool. They did that with Ravenwing and Deathwing, depending on the army commanders..

It could work with something like White Scars bikes always count as troop choices. Or Raven Guard jump troops fill regular troop choices if you take Shrike.

I'd also like to see Salamanders retain Cleanse & Purify.

shadows_at_dusk
03-03-2008, 01:49
Nah. Won't happen.

Besides, the enemy knows where the Terminators will show up because of the group of red triangles that appear at the target area, so the enemy is alwys ready to counter them. All the Terminators can do in response is shoot them, as they have no opportunity to immediately assault. :p

That's actually very funny! :D



That reason might have to do with you playing idiot powergamers. My sympathies.

Personally, if someone who played a particular marine chapter shows up one day saying he now uses BT rules, I will openly question his true motivations for playing the game.

Powergamers are NOT idiots! They are some of the smartest players I know IMO as they can very quickly find the strengths of their particular army. Some people play the game because they like the game and don't know/care what the fluff says. To them the fiction/fluff is there to spark ideas and creativity, not to limit their army's options. And perhaps a person's motivation for using BT for another marine chapter is that maybe they like the rules/options but don't wat to play using BT models or color scheme. Perfectly valid in my mind.



I ran them against my friend's "nids and Dark Angels, but we usually "tool up" against each other. You should see the stuff he throws at me.

I would not mind hearing about it. PM me if you'd like. :)


all I want to keep is my two heavy weapons for my terminators and the traits...thats all. I do NOT want to remove my cyclone missle launchers off two of my models...

I am right there with you brother!

jhneoh
03-03-2008, 06:47
Based on what they did to Codex Orks, I would expect to see something like this.

HQ

Space Marine Captain 0-1
Equipment : Bolt Pistol & CCW

May replace Bolt Pistol with 1 of the following:
Bolter - free
Storm Bolter - 5pts
Combi-weapon - 10pts
Plasma Pistol - 15pts

May replace CCW with 1 of the following:
Power weapon - 15pts
Power fist - 25pts
Lightning Claw- 25pts

May replace Bolt Pistol and CCW with 1 of the following:
Twin Lightning Claws - 30pts
Terminator armour with Storm Bolter and Power fist - 30pts

If equipped with Terminator armour, may do the following :
Exchange Storm Bolter for Combi-weapon - +5pts
Exchange Storm Bolter and Power fist for Twin Lightning Claws - free
Exchange Storm Bolter and Power fist for Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield - free
Exchange Power fist for Lightning Claw - free
Exchange Power fist for Chainfist - +5pts

If Captain is not equipped with Terminator armour, may take a bike at +30pts, or a jump pack at +20pts.

Space Marine Captain may take one of the following:
Iron Halo - 25pts
Adamantine Mantle - 30pts

Special Rules :

Be Swift As the Wind
If Space Marine Captain is equipped with a Bike, Space Marine Bike Squads may be taken as troops, and Veteran Squads may be given Bikes at + Xpts each.

Take The Fight To Them
If Space Marine Captain is equipped with a jump pack, Space Marine Assault Squads may be taken as troops, and Veteran Squads may be given jump packs at + Xpts each

MrBigMr
03-03-2008, 11:55
I'm a little worried now.
Ok, terminators and such don't bother me, as I only field 5 with one HW anyways, but turning scouts into elites is a little bad move. One troop choice is not enough in my book. Who would field scouts when you have terminators, vets, dreads and techmarines in that spot as well? I can understand BA and DA having them in the elite slot as they're not generic marines. Deathworld Veterans have ogryns as troops, because they're a special list instead of the normal IG codex.

Also, if Wargear gets replaced with something along the lines of a list of things to get, I'll get s stroke. Where are all the little things? Where are bionics, auspexes, homers, combat shields, thunder hammer, storm shield, etc.? It would look like my assault sergeant with storm bolter, power fist and iron halo could not be fielded.

Removal of traits would also crap my fluffy army of Eldar hunters and as I was going to have a "medic" squad with an apothecary sergeant, same goes for those guys. Not to forget my siege marine chapter with their terminator sergeants.

Shall I just "counts as" them all? Counts my ass. If this trend continues, I might as well make an army of sprue stick figures and call them what ever I want. Still they function as good as any £500 marine army with heavy conversions and full WYSIWYG.

Jesus... I'm still hopeful that this is nothing but shoehorning of combat squads, limited terminator squads and additional marine gear into the SM codex. I doubt they've had much time to test out all those other things with the marines.


Powergamers are NOT idiots! They are some of the smartest players I know IMO as they can very quickly find the strengths of their particular army.
They're not idiots, they're a-holes. Ok, making a competitive army is ok, but double lash Slaanesh princes along with tzeentch terminators, death guard and obliterators is somewhat pushing it. Or min/max las/plas squads and dual AC terminator squads.

Sure, you can take them, but it won't win you any friends.

foehammer888
03-03-2008, 12:50
Also, if Wargear gets replaced with something along the lines of a list of things to get, I'll get s stroke. Where are all the little things? Where are bionics, auspexes, homers, combat shields, thunder hammer, storm shield, etc.? It would look like my assault sergeant with storm bolter, power fist and iron halo could not be fielded. Well, I'm pretty sure the Iron Halo is illegal on the assault sergeant anyway (pretty sure its IC's only). However, I'd get yourself to a hospital the day before this book is released. The last 4 40k Codexes (Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Chaos, Orks) all lost the armory in favor of this new system. I don't see them keeping it in C:SM. In all honesty, it works alot better. For years I couldn't even count the number of illegal wargear combinations I saw even veteran gamer's field because of the rather rediculous "handed" weapons system. Now your captain can field a plasma pistol sidearm, a power sword, and a stormbolter all at the same time.

You just need to live without artificer armor and master crafted weapons (now reserved for special characters).


Sure, you can take them, but it won't win you any friends. It may surprise you but many people in this hobby appear to care very little about making friends.

This is very similar denial to what was seen with the chaos marine codex. People cried that GW couldn't possibly be removing the Legion rules, that they wouldn't invalidate armies and models by removing the armory and the huge list of daemonic gifts. However, they all went out the window.

Foehammer

tsutek
03-03-2008, 13:27
I for one wouldn't mind seeing scouts as elites. The main reason being there are only a hundred of them in a chapter; also, they fill a specialized role in the chapter and aren't meant to hold the main battle line.


I've got a bit of a different idea about scouts fluff-wise: Now, there might be some text somewhere claiming otherwise, but the way I see it all marine chapters would be extinkt by now if all they had was one thousand brothers per chapter.. Considering the slow pace of recruitment of new marines (growing all those implants etc, takes what, at least a decade per marine?) added with the fact that in every big battle (ie. planetary-sized), at least a company of brothers die, a mere 100 scouts could not hope to keep the number of marines from dropping year after year.

Coming from this perspective, I see no reason why a marine chapter couldn't have as much as even 1000 scout brothers.. as from these 1000, probably more than half would die before living old enough to get black carapace implanted anyway.. Not all scouts would be equipped with heavy weapons and sniper rifles though, majority would have standard bolters/pistols and shotguns..

I would love to hear good counter-arguments for this one.

Now, rules-wise, it'd be cool if we could field two kinds of scouts: infiltrating scout squads (FOC: elite) with optional sniper rifles and "vanilla" scout squads (no infiltrate ability, only MTC / FOC: troops) with bolters/pistols/shotguns.. heck, why not even give vanilla scouts rhino/razorback transport options!! ;) Not every chapter's cup of tea perhaps, but less specialized ones, why not

General Fishsticks
03-03-2008, 14:24
I'm just hoping they don't rid Sargeants of stormbolters - as they have with the DA and BA lists... I like stormbolters on sargeants :(

MrBigMr
03-03-2008, 15:01
Well, I'm pretty sure the Iron Halo is illegal on the assault sergeant anyway (pretty sure its IC's only).
Nuttin' in mah codex about such a thing.


However, I'd get yourself to a hospital the day before this book is released. The last 4 40k Codexes (Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Chaos, Orks) all lost the armory in favor of this new system. I don't see them keeping it in C:SM. In all honesty, it works alot better. For years I couldn't even count the number of illegal wargear combinations I saw even veteran gamer's field because of the rather rediculous "handed" weapons system. Now your captain can field a plasma pistol sidearm, a power sword, and a stormbolter all at the same time.
I'm not so much worried about wargear, but merely the limitations of the new system. Instead of all the fun stuff one could do (come on, who wouldn't want to field bolt and plasma pistol, power weapon and CCW, etc.). Now we only have things that are "popular". Like when daemonic aura was made fully part of the Chaos lord, instead of having something like that optional (I would have never fielded something like that). And why did we lose the "cheap options", such as Chaos lieutenant? Because no body used it? I did.

Not to forget losing all the nifty little things. Nowadays 40K is starting to look like daemonic legion in WHFB. You got different troops with little to no upgrades (champion, standard, musician) and few characters with options (gifts).

I can understand and even enjoy the full listing, but it shouldn't eat away at the multitude of things armies can field. When you go from a whole armoury to few weapon options, it's quite frustrating. At least to me it eats away at creativity. I don't get the same spark.

"Counts as" is just stupid when one thing can be something totally different. I've always preferred wysiwyg, even if the item in question is different. Like how shuriken pistol and bolt pistol are the same. So if I have a marine armed with a shuriken pistol, he's pretty much wysiwyg as the weapon handels identically to a bolt pistol. But having a marine with a lasgun and calling it "super lasgun" and using plasma gun stats, just makes things more difficult than some rules that need more than 10 minutes to learn.

With the old Chaos codex I could have fielded a Chaos lieutenant with daemonic flight and strenght, arm him with a sonic blaster and a power weapon and use a Tau XV8 with a sonic blaster and a large sword as the model. Now that would rise more questions than answer. I wanted something more inworld than some "lets make it up" crap. Now that I've started working on a "prototype suit" by fluff from the Shadowsun armour as an assault sergeant, GW once again craps it.

Soon it'll be a nifty model with all sorts of gear mounted on it, and in stats it'll be an assault sergeant with a power weapon and bolt pistol. That's about the same as slapping 10 000 dollars wort of body kits onto a Nissan. It'll look pimp, but it's still a crappy Nissan under it all.


It may surprise you but many people in this hobby appear to care very little about making friends.
An ******* is an ******* no matter if he rolled dice, fixed cars for a living or made millions on Wallstreet.

I don't personally know any players who play just to win. We do it just to have fun. I don't care if my armies are hip or not. Me and my mate are organizing a WHFB tournament for a local RPG association (in which we both belong to) that is very fluffy and there is only one normal battle in it. All the others are filled with all sorts of things ranging from two sided attack against a defended objective; transportation of an artefact off the table; and even a 6 player megabattle in the end.

All this is carried out by a story and even all the players are split into "good" (empire, high elves, dwarfs, etc.), "bad" (Chaos, undead) and "ugly" (DoW, Orks). Usually the bad are always doing the attacking, etc. Not to forget plenty of other sources for points besides VP. Killing of a general in a challenge earns you a tournament point and if the generals meat in a challenge, the winner scores 2 points.

Even though the "powerplayers" (mostly southerners, aka. big city folks) whined about this and that, even up to "don't you hillbillies know how to organize a tournament", our quotas are filled already and the tournament is well over a month away.


This is very similar denial to what was seen with the chaos marine codex. People cried that GW couldn't possibly be removing the Legion rules, that they wouldn't invalidate armies and models by removing the armory and the huge list of daemonic gifts. However, they all went out the window.
I'm not saying GW wouldn't do it. It's like taunting a person with a gun ("you won't do it"), but sometimes their development goes backwards. Ok, things were different "back in the day", but people also used to live in caves and fear fire "back in the day". Shouldn't it be about moving forwards one steps at a time rather than dramatically kicking everything non-vanilla, straight out of the box, square in the balls.

Sometimes it seems like GW is intentionally getting rid of all the creative elements of their games. There haven't been any good conversions at the Konversion Klinik and with bits gone to blister packs, there propably won't be anymore. Lucky for me I got a good deal of bits from them before they closed the shop.

All the things presented at the site are mostly about how to alter the plastic kits, not about taking something that doesn't even have anything to do with the army and making it fit it.


Oh well, at least I took the possible future loss of doctrines into count when starting my IG. While they're converted with carapace and all, they're also able to perform as vanilla troops.

Just my 2 eurocents worth of rant...

shadows_at_dusk
03-03-2008, 23:33
@ MrBigMr

I agree whole-heartedly with just about everything you've said. I don't get why you have such vemon over powergamers though. They are just gamers like you and me.. most of the ones I know are just young. I play against them pretty frequently but it's not that big of a deal. I find that the best medicine for powergamers is to let them take what they want and then thrash the army they thought was unbeatable. I can't beat them all the time but a good portion of the time I can. I don't see what is so wrong with seeing Nurgle marines and Tzeentch marines in the same army, I fight it quite a bit actually and it's not that big of a deal. I know the "FLUFF" says they hate each other but they have worked togeather before and when Abaddon sets out on another black crusade the probably will work together again! If GW did not want you to tyake them in the same army they should have said they can't be fielded in the same army like they used to.

I love options the codeci used to have and I think the codeci are being dumbed down too much. Just because some people cant grasp the concept of adding and not going overboard on wargear does not mean it should be taken away. If there is one thing I hate, it is cookie cutter armies. I feel there is a sad trend with each new codex, While they are not bad and they are usable, they just seem increasingly....BLAND! I personally have not read even 1 of the novels, but I pretty much know what the fluff is for my army. I personally like the customizability of the current SM codex and I have always given at least a nod toward being close to the fluff, but now it feels like the FLUFF has all the armies I loved in a choke hold and is squeezing the life and creativity out of them!

eriochrome
03-03-2008, 23:46
I really do not mind the 5 or 10 man squads or the heavy weapon only at 10 men. I really do not like the idea of the scouts becoming elites. If you want to limit the number of scouts they should just put the 0-2 limit on the squads as a troop choice. I currently have 3 different 10 man scout squads (9 snipers + Missile; 8 Bolters +HB +VS with CombiMelta; and an close combat with a few shotguns, many 2 cc weapons, and a powerfist) and they would probably never see the board if I have to worry about my low armor unit being worth more victory points and using spaces normally for termies, dreadnoughts, and veterans.

If they become elites are assaults going to be troops like in BA so there is at least two troop choices. If that happens my 4500 points of SM's will have all of 2 land speeders as fast attack choices(scout bikers appear gone also).

I also noted that in BA it appears that every squad must have a vet seg so I will have to update my paint scheme to make sure one is clear.

Kalec
04-03-2008, 01:16
Scout Bikers getting axed, only troop choice is tac squads which must be in squads of 5 or 10, S4 defensive weaps make Landspeeders useless, scouts join the already-clogged elites section, the trait system scrapped rather then fixed, and compulsory vet sarge in every squad?

The only thing I am glad about is not buying anything as soon as I heard 5th edition was around the corner. The new dex only vindicates that decision.

doskar
05-03-2008, 22:10
Scouts going to elites will cause problems with everyones list. I think having combat squads with devastators will be nice, more bang fro your buck with 2 5 man squads with 2 heavy weapons each.

eriochrome
06-03-2008, 03:44
The 2 heavy with 5 probably just about cancels the increase costs. Are all the marines going to get bolt pistols and grenades like the blood angels and does that mean I have to go back and model that on each one? I think the rule is that if it is optional equipment it must be modeled but not if it is standard?

The bolt pistols will be helpful for charging enemies which would charge you next turn. It will not be well do I hope to break you with my rapid fire bolter and let you get your bonus attack next turn mister stealer or do I shoot once with my handy new bolt pistol then get a bonus cc attack this turn. I have made the mistake of letting a unit with my chapter master who should have charged on my turn get charged and getting him killed before his I5 5 power weapons attacks.

BrainFireBob
06-03-2008, 05:52
.. the fact that in every big battle (ie. planetary-sized), at least a company of brothers die,...

This part is false. That's the counter. You mistake in-game wounds for Marines dying. Being out of commission for the fight does not equal dead, especially for Marines, since most of their implants are about accelerated healing and/or difficulty in actually dying. Most of the wounded survive.

Gerrok
06-03-2008, 06:09
I can understand the argument about scounts going to elites, and the other side. Honestly I think it would be much better if they left scouts in troops but tactical squads are a 2+ requirement. I'd also put the restriction that you cannot have more scout squads then tactical squads. But who listens to me.

KazenX
06-03-2008, 08:10
In sub 2500 pt games I rarely fielded termies, drednoughts suffer from being a vehicle (not like they could be any thing else but I miss my second ed noughts that were worthy of the name) (The armies I commonly square off against are necron, marines, nids, guard, and tau, it's just a liability with the amount of armor punch on the table), vets are high points but with the possible loss of skills for the rest of the army they might look more attractive (the new chosen spring to mind), and I feel dirty fielding a tech marine with out a grip of vehicles. For these reasons I feel that the scouts entering elites really isn't a problem due to lack viable choices. What it will change is raising marines minimum points for a viable list. Again I don't think this is a bad thing as guard (w/o doctrines) and necron have a high points floors as well.

Dimitrios
06-03-2008, 08:34
I partially agre with KazenX.

I like that scouts go to elites. It will force marine armies to actually have SPACE MARINES in them!

If you think about it scouts do form a unique and individual role, and as such they are elitist if not elite. So this move does make sence.

This move will annoy a few bands of player:

a) The " In the good old codex my list was amazing but now GW has made everything boring" gang.
b) The " I can no longer field my PWNAGE terminator army of death any more.. i might have to have a normal army now... boo hoo" gang.
c) The " I hate all things 5th edition and this is one more thing i ill disagree with to make my point!" gang.

So yes the rest of us who enjoy the challenges and fluff that GW are trying to generate welcome this new codex so that it can bring a new lease of life into the most OVER PLAYED and NORMAL armies in the 40k Universe.

Bring on all the afformentioned changes! Make SM a more elitist and harded to use army! Then maybe tactics might come into play and not just rely on the amount of ways you can squeese cheese out of the list!!

¬Rant over :P

**Now off to work : D

KazenX
06-03-2008, 09:03
Some after thoughts; in friendly games custom sceanarios as stand alone or part of a campaign, where a small force of scouts must make their escape or engage in sabotage would still be possible. With the rumored loss of kill team from the 5th ed book I think we would see more players open to this idea. Also in the future we may see a Kill Team style expansion where scouts would not be out of place as a primary force. In fact I think this may be why these changes are occuring, a more modular game system where the studio only needs to alter one or two books rather than release a new edition and when they find out that they made a misstep.

Grand Master Raziel
06-03-2008, 12:22
I like that scouts go to elites. It will force marine armies to actually have SPACE MARINES in them!

b) The " I can no longer field my PWNAGE terminator army of death any more.. i might have to have a normal army now... boo hoo" gang.

I call shenanigans on these. I've never actually seen an army that was all Scouts, no Marines, and I seriously doubt that they're all that common. As for Terminators, anyone who thinks they're PWNAGE hasn't actually used them.

Supremearchmarshal
06-03-2008, 14:17
My thoughts on the SM update, assuming the 5th edition rumours are true and that the new codex will use the same design philosophy as the DA/BA codexes:

Traits in their current form will be dropped.
Sergeants will only get options for power fist, power weapon, melta bombs and (overpriced) plasma pistol.

HQ:
Commander - will get 4+ invulnerable as standard but no adamantine mantle etc. Wargear limited as in all new lists. Possibly having him equipped in a certain way will allow a trait. On the other hand, maybe a special character will be required for that.

Chaplain - W 2, LD 9. No other changes.

Librarian - W 2, LD 9. Psychic powers will get changed. Force weapon will be weaker. Overall, he'll be significantly weaker.

ELITES:
Terminators - Weaker. Assault cannon more expensive, Flamer cheaper. Fixed squad size of 5, only one heavy weapon per squad. Probably no veteran skills.

Veterans - major changes. Lose veteran skills and get more equipment options.

Techmarine - will lose signum and IC status, becoming totally worthless.

Dreadnought - weapon costs will change. Won't have veteran skills. Venerable upgrade might get dropped.

TROOPS:
Tactical squad - get pistols, grenades, combat squads and limited access to heavy weapons. Plasmas and Lascannons more expensive.

Scouts - could be moved to elites. Heavy weapons will be more expensive. S 4 shotgun.

Rhino/Razorback - cheaper, but extra armour more expensive.

Drop Pod - more expensive

FAST ATTACK
Land Speeders - some weapons more expensive. Less survivable. Now that blast weapons scatter, Typhoon will be useless. S 4 defensive weapons will really hurt all of them.

Bikers/Attack Bikes - same I guess, except probably no more meltabombs.

Scout Bikes - now they'll be able to do flank attacks, for what's it worth. Probably no more meltabombs. It wouldn't surprise me if they're dropped altogether.

Assault Squad - nerfed. No melta bombs and possibly no flamers. Overpriced Plasma Pistols. Combat squads for what it's worth. Only function will be to provide meatshields for ICs.

HEAVY SUPPORT
Land Raider - will become more survivable due to single damage chart. Firepower will be weakened due to s4 defensive weapons.

Predator - major shaft. Will become an immobile pillbox. The sponson Lascannons will be greatly overcosted. No machine spirit upgrade.

Devastator squad - will be better due to combat squads rule.

Whirlwind/vindicator - no significant changes.

MrBigMr
06-03-2008, 15:21
I don't get why you have such vemon over powergamers though. They are just gamers like you and me.. most of the ones I know are just young. I play against them pretty frequently but it's not that big of a deal. I find that the best medicine for powergamers is to let them take what they want and then thrash the army they thought was unbeatable. I can't beat them all the time but a good portion of the time I can.
It's just that quite often they have a bad attitude towards non-powergamers. "lol, I'll pwn yo n00bs", "your army sucks, man", "those options are worthless, why the hell did you take something like that when this is so much better", etc. I don't care what people take, but trashing others isn't a good way to get ahead.

Besides, the goal is to have fun, not bash the opponent and rub it in. I rarely win, but if the opponent is a good winner it doesn't matter at all where as some ******* will make you wanna put their head through a wall. Besides, sometimes it's more fun to do stupid head strong things (in Apocalypse walk your marines through a mine field because that's what was ordered or let your troops hold their position no matter how much fire they take) than try and act like some master strategists.


I don't see what is so wrong with seeing Nurgle marines and Tzeentch marines in the same army, I fight it quite a bit actually and it's not that big of a deal. I know the "FLUFF" says they hate each other but they have worked togeather before and when Abaddon sets out on another black crusade the probably will work together again! If GW did not want you to tyake them in the same army they should have said they can't be fielded in the same army like they used to.
It's just funny that in BFG you can't have Slaanes-Khorne and Nurgle-Tzeentch together, let alone that when my army fluff featured a bit where the Slaanesh fleet ferried some Khorne troops, I got some flak about it ("It would never happen, they hate each other").

I think that it would be important to have an undivided lord for multi-god force (like in WHFB daemonic legion). I doubt Khorne fanatics would take orders from a Slaanesh panty waist.


I like that scouts go to elites. It will force marine armies to actually have SPACE MARINES in them!

If you think about it scouts do form a unique and individual role, and as such they are elitist if not elite. So this move does make sence.
Tactical marines could be made into minimum of one choice, like Fire Warriors. I still don't see how scouts would get used as much any more when they're fighting from the same slots as vets, dreads, termies and techmarines.

If it happens, I don't think scouts get much air time.


a) The " In the good old codex my list was amazing but now GW has made everything boring" gang.
b) The " I can no longer field my PWNAGE terminator army of death any more.. i might have to have a normal army now... boo hoo" gang.
c) The " I hate all things 5th edition and this is one more thing i ill disagree with to make my point!" gang.
What about us who have written 3 novels of army fluff with mere fluffy reasons for an army?


HQ:
Commander - will get 4+ invulnerable as standard but no adamantine mantle etc. Wargear limited as in all new lists. Possibly having him equipped in a certain way will allow a trait. On the other hand, maybe a special character will be required for that.

Chaplain - W 2, LD 9. No other changes.

Librarian - W 2, LD 9. Psychic powers will get changed. Force weapon will be weaker. Overall, he'll be significantly weaker.
What about things like command groups? If I have a commander in terminator armour, will he have to take a terminator command group or get a normal marine one? Can librarians or others be added to command groups?

I sort of doubt the special character trait system, because I don't think Mr. Hero Marine is a member of both the Emperor's Pointy Sticks as well as the Pointy Sticks of the Emperor chapters. So commander gear thingy would seem more likely.


ELITES:
Terminators - Weaker. Assault cannon more expensive, Flamer cheaper. Fixed squad size of 5, only one heavy weapon per squad. Probably no veteran skills.
How can they be weaker?


Techmarine - will lose signum and IC status, becoming totally worthless.
With servitors they don't benefit from it either.


Dreadnought - weapon costs will change. Won't have veteran skills. Venerable upgrade might get dropped.
Good job, GW.
1. Release Venerable Dreadnought kit.
2. Take away the option for Venerable Dreadnought.
3. ???
4. Profit (?)


Assault Squad - nerfed. No melta bombs and possibly no flamers. Overpriced Plasma Pistols. Combat squads for what it's worth. Only function will be to provide meatshields for ICs.
Like they were any good before. Crap.



But all in all, it seems I might be able to coup with all the alterations, depending on how much GW decides to dumb down all the things. It would suck donkey balls if we get another army with plenty of ready made choices (what if I don't want to have an Iron halo on my commander?) and little to no options (will I give my sergeant a power weapon or a combi-bolter, oh noes, the multitude of choices).

eriochrome
06-03-2008, 17:23
From the BA codex it looked like the honor guard(command squad) and veteran assualt squad both got the terminator honors on whole unit for a small point increase. I think the 1 vet 4 normal assualt squad was only like 10 points less than the 5 veteran assault squad. That should help close combat punch for those units. Ofcourse since they loss infiltrate I will have to get them a land raider.

OverchargeThis!
06-03-2008, 17:31
I dunno MrBigMr. The critical change to assaults, if the pdf is to be the final version, is LD checks after combat. You don't have to wipe out every model. You just need to force a fallback check whilst netting a few more wounds than your opponent. So one charging assault squad into a single squad will end up being more effective than it is now. We really need to see what the final 5th edition ruleset brings.

that said, I am very ,very upset at the loss of flamers in assault squads. I just don't understand that at all, particularly when in the CSM codex, raptors can equip flamers/mg/pg/pp. I'm thinking it will be re-considered for the C:SM release, or I hope it will.

Supremearchmarshal
06-03-2008, 18:00
Tactical marines could be made into minimum of one choice, like Fire Warriors. I still don't see how scouts would get used as much any more when they're fighting from the same slots as vets, dreads, termies and techmarines.

If it happens, I don't think scouts get much air time.

I agree with you, but unfortunately the design team doesn't.


What about us who have written 3 novels of army fluff with mere fluffy reasons for an army?

You will be told to use "counts as" or "play Apocalypse".


What about things like command groups? If I have a commander in terminator armour, will he have to take a terminator command group or get a normal marine one? Can librarians or others be added to command groups?

Good point. I forgot about the command squads.


I sort of doubt the special character trait system, because I don't think Mr. Hero Marine is a member of both the Emperor's Pointy Sticks as well as the Pointy Sticks of the Emperor chapters. So commander gear thingy would seem more likely.

Yeah, that's one of the main problems with the upcoming codex. I really do wonder how GW will handle this one.


With servitors they don't benefit from it either.

Yeah, but currently I can at least have him support a Devastator squad or ride around on a bike, making him somewhat useful (though certainly not cost-effective). The new one will be completely useless.


Good job, GW.
1. Release Venerable Dreadnought kit.
2. Take away the option for Venerable Dreadnought.
3. ???
4. Profit (?)

Wouldn't be the first time. Remember Griffons and Exterminators? BA Scout Bikers?

EDIT: However, considering these are GW's poser-boys, the Venerable upgrade just might make it into the codex.


Like they were any good before. Crap.

They were. It was back in 2nd edition...


But all in all, it seems I might be able to coup with all the alterations, depending on how much GW decides to dumb down all the things. It would suck donkey balls if we get another army with plenty of ready made choices (what if I don't want to have an Iron halo on my commander?) and little to no options (will I give my sergeant a power weapon or a combi-bolter, oh noes, the multitude of choices).

He probably won't even get the combi-bolter...
SM are considered the starter army. No chance of them having more options than CSM unless there is a major change in the design philosophy.

Neo799
06-03-2008, 18:14
I call boolsheet to all this bellyaching. The 5th ed PDF is way old now and probably leaked for giggles. And yes SM are a "beginner" army, but making them suck and bland will accomplish all of nothing for GW.

Wuestenfux
06-03-2008, 18:23
Scout Bikers getting axed, only troop choice is tac squads which must be in squads of 5 or 10, S4 defensive weaps make Landspeeders useless, scouts join the already-clogged elites section, the trait system scrapped rather then fixed, and compulsory vet sarge in every squad?

Where are the good news?

MrBigMr
06-03-2008, 18:39
I agree with you, but unfortunately the design team doesn't.
Well, they'll get fired sooner or later, so all we have to do is wait for GW to do another 180 in the philosophy.


You will be told to use "counts as" or "play Apocalypse".
Why would I buy 40K if I'm forced to play apocalypse? That's like the best move GW ever made. Lets make the normal game so crappy the players are force to buy Apocalypse so that they can have any fun with it. Might as well dig my Battletech from the closet, wipe off the dust and put my money on some of their models. Maybe I can count it as 40K.

"Counts as"... It's the stupidest thing ever created. Might as well make an army of marshmellows with M&M weapons and call them Space Marines. Green M&Ms are bolters, red ones lascannons, blue plasma, etc.

Besides, when I'm already counting veteran bolt pistols as shuriken pistols, veteran meltagun as a fusion gun, veteran power fist as a scorpion's claw, storm bolters as sonic blasters (with psycannons as the models), big ass sword as a power fist, anything from a power armoured dwarf to Shadowsun's battlesuit as marines (regular and assault), predator annihilators as leman russes annihilators, an obliterator as a techmarine, etc. I don't see how I can "counts as" anymore.

Should I switch to yet another codex? Ork one at that. These boyz count as space marines that count as armed with shuriken pistols and CCWs.

*sigh*
I like my armies to be legal, withing the rules. Even if far from traditional, they would all be at least 90% wysiwyg (so a dude has a shuriken pistol, it's still the same as a bolt pistol, hence you see and get a shuriken pistol which = bolt pistol) and so forth. I don't like to use any house rules or anything, because then I would have to agree about everything with my opponent and all. It's easier to have an army that can be played like that without any fiddling around.


Yeah, but currently I can at least have him support a Devastator squad or ride around on a bike, making him somewhat useful (though certainly not cost-effective). The new one will be completely useless.
In anything else besides sitting behind those billbox predators and keeping them operational.


Wouldn't be the first time. Remember Griffons and Exterminators? BA Scout Bikers?
No, no and no.
Although I've been a fan of 40K for a long long time (early 90s), I only got into playing around the end of 3rd edition. So I've missed some of the old stuff. Besides, they're back with Forge World, which, by their own word, are totally usable without opponent premission (apart from super heavies and flyiers).

I have an old Griffon cannon (bought the tank at half price for a Chimera conversions) and I also have some GW Exterminator autocannons.


He probably won't even get the combi-bolter...
SM are considered the starter army. No chance of them having more options than CSM unless there is a major change in the design philosophy.
Yup. I'll bet they'll scrap combat shield as well, even though both Assault Marine and Dark Angel boxes come with it. Yet again one notch in GWs belt on scrapping all my conversions (I can't help it if the model for my Librarian already comes with a shield, not to forget my veteran sergeant with Eldar shimmer shield). And lets not forget Storm Shield, especially now that they came out with a power armoured marine model equipped with such a thing.



I would really hope to see what the hell is going on at GW. I mean, could they at least give some reason, even some lip service to the fan rather than just pull stuff out of their hats and sell it. I don't mind taking it up the ass if there's foreplay and cuddling afterwards. But this is like prison rape to me. They take my money and I feel like ****ed.

Wuestenfux
06-03-2008, 18:42
My thoughts on the SM update, a
Traits in their current form will be dropped.
Sergeants will only get options for power fist, power weapon, melta bombs and (overpriced) plasma pistol.

HQ:
Commander - will get 4+ invulnerable as standard but no adamantine mantle etc. Wargear limited as in all new lists. Possibly having him equipped in a certain way will allow a trait. On the other hand, maybe a special character will be required for that.

Chaplain - W 2, LD 9. No other changes.

Librarian - W 2, LD 9. Psychic powers will get changed. Force weapon will be weaker. Overall, he'll be significantly weaker.

ELITES:
Terminators - Weaker. Assault cannon more expensive, Flamer cheaper. Fixed squad size of 5, only one heavy weapon per squad. Probably no veteran skills.

Veterans - major changes. Lose veteran skills and get more equipment options.

Techmarine - will lose signum and IC status, becoming totally worthless.

Dreadnought - weapon costs will change. Won't have veteran skills. Venerable upgrade might get dropped.

TROOPS:
Tactical squad - get pistols, grenades, combat squads and limited access to heavy weapons. Plasmas and Lascannons more expensive.

Scouts - could be moved to elites. Heavy weapons will be more expensive. S 4 shotgun.

Rhino/Razorback - cheaper, but extra armour more expensive.

Drop Pod - more expensive

FAST ATTACK
Land Speeders - some weapons more expensive. Less survivable. Now that blast weapons scatter, Typhoon will be useless. S 4 defensive weapons will really hurt all of them.

Bikers/Attack Bikes - same I guess, except probably no more meltabombs.

Scout Bikes - now they'll be able to do flank attacks, for what's it worth. Probably no more meltabombs. It wouldn't surprise me if they're dropped altogether.

Assault Squad - nerfed. No melta bombs and possibly no flamers. Overpriced Plasma Pistols. Combat squads for what it's worth. Only function will be to provide meatshields for ICs.

HEAVY SUPPORT
Land Raider - will become more survivable due to single damage chart. Firepower will be weakened due to s4 defensive weapons.

Predator - major shaft. Will become an immobile pillbox. The sponson Lascannons will be greatly overcosted. No machine spirit upgrade.

Devastator squad - will be better due to combat squads rule.

Whirlwind/vindicator - no significant changes.

What a boring codex! But this is what we can expect at first sight.

Supremearchmarshal
06-03-2008, 19:15
Why would I buy 40K if I'm forced to play apocalypse? That's like the best move GW ever made. Lets make the normal game so crappy the players are force to buy Apocalypse so that they can have any fun with it. Might as well dig my Battletech from the closet, wipe off the dust and put my money on some of their models. Maybe I can count it as 40K.

Agreed, it's sad that Apocalypse serves as a dumping ground for any army lists and units the designers can't be bothered to update, but don't want to exterminate because a race they dropped years ago still gives a black mark to their name.


a power armoured dwarf

Sssh! The Inquisition might hear you...

I know the feeling - I have a LatD army. In a way I'm actually glad they didn't update it. I shudder to think what would happen to its variety...

MrBigMr
06-03-2008, 21:25
Agreed, it's sad that Apocalypse serves as a dumping ground for any army lists and units the designers can't be bothered to update, but don't want to exterminate because a race they dropped years ago still gives a black mark to their name.
GW should have kept the blame on the abusers, rather than make themselves the bad guys. Again. If they had just kept the armies so that few bad eggs get to make puffed up lists, we all could blame the players who do it. Now GW has made even the powerplayers victims ("oh, my fluffy 4 HS Iron Warriors").

But non the less Apocalypse is good fun, but best kept as a good fun, like CoD, rather than a dump for anything GW can't be bothered with.


Sssh! The Inquisition might hear you...
Hey, the Demiurg are an established and existing part of the universe. I don't know what's so hush-hush about them. I merely have two demiurgs in my army (one as a "tactical marine (http://www.hasslefreeminiatures.co.uk/gallery.php?photo_id=864&gallery_id=25)" and one as a "scout sniper (http://www.hasslefreeminiatures.co.uk/gallery.php?photo_id=231&gallery_id=25)"), since Chaos isn't restricted by the same rules and regulations as the Imperium.


I know the feeling - I have a LatD army. In a way I'm actually glad they didn't update it. I shudder to think what would happen to its variety...
Doesn't IA5 have traitor Guard rules? And then there's the normal IG codex (for now...) if you're fine with lack of daemons. But you get all sorts of mutants with the Abhuman doctrines and then there's the Ogryns and Ratlings and all. Screw daemons, you got more freaks to choose from than all Chaos codexes combined.

Supremearchmarshal
06-03-2008, 23:34
But non the less Apocalypse is good fun, but best kept as a good fun, like CoD, rather than a dump for anything GW can't be bothered with.

QFT


Hey, the Demiurg are an established and existing part of the universe. I don't know what's so hush-hush about them. I merely have two demiurgs in my army (one as a "tactical marine (http://www.hasslefreeminiatures.co.uk/gallery.php?photo_id=864&gallery_id=25)" and one as a "scout sniper (http://www.hasslefreeminiatures.co.uk/gallery.php?photo_id=231&gallery_id=25)"), since Chaos isn't restricted by the same rules and regulations as the Imperium.

Oh, that's ok then. Just make sure no-one mistakes them for the S-things.


Doesn't IA5 have traitor Guard rules? And then there's the normal IG codex (for now...) if you're fine with lack of daemons. But you get all sorts of mutants with the Abhuman doctrines and then there's the Ogryns and Ratlings and all. Screw daemons, you got more freaks to choose from than all Chaos codexes combined.

Well currently I use my own, updated version of the LatD rules for friendly games, but if I ever use them in a tournament or something I think I'll use Orks. See my army is mutant heavy, and that's why the IG and Renegade Guard lists don't quite fit them. Orks, however, would cover a lot: CSM = Nobz, Traitors = Shoota Boyz, Muties = Slugga Boyz, Big Muties = Meganobz, Furies = Stormboyz, Arch-heretic = Wierdboy etc.


Well this thread has gone off topic, so let me make an effort to get it back on track: what are the thoughts of fellow Warseer members on the special characters? Will there be a lot of them in an effort to replace the traits?

I think Cassius could allow his unit to take preferred enemy: Tyranids (Tyrannic War Veterans will probably be dropped) and Marneus will upgrade his Command Squad to an Honour Guard. Tigurius will probably be kick-ass compared to the redux Librarians. Shrike may allow Assault squads as troops or something. Lysander will probably stay the same.

Kalec
07-03-2008, 01:23
Then maybe tactics might come into play and not just rely on the amount of ways you can squeese cheese out of the list!!



Half of tactics is taking advantage of every point in your army list.

The Dude
07-03-2008, 02:08
Half of tactics is taking advantage of every point in your army list.

Aaah ha ha ha ha haaa!!! :D

No, I’m afraid none of tactics relates to the army list. That’s called planning. You plan for several eventualities, taking certain units to fill those roles. How you then use those units to deal with the situation at hand is tactics.

:)

MrBigMr
07-03-2008, 06:33
Oh, that's ok then. Just make sure no-one mistakes them for the S-things.
What S-things, my good sir? I have no recollection of such things to be a part of the 40K universe nor never being a part of it.

(you think that got them off our backs?)


Well this thread has gone off topic, so let me make an effort to get it back on track: what are the thoughts of fellow Warseer members on the special characters? Will there be a lot of them in an effort to replace the traits?

I think Cassius could allow his unit to take preferred enemy: Tyranids (Tyrannic War Veterans will probably be dropped) and Marneus will upgrade his Command Squad to an Honour Guard. Tigurius will probably be kick-ass compared to the redux Librarians. Shrike may allow Assault squads as troops or something. Lysander will probably stay the same.
Could be. I'm interested to see how Iron Hands will be made with their terminator sergeants etc. A special character or what?

I do have to say that after looking through the DA and BA codexes, I think I'll be able to to a reasonable presentation of my force, but it'll be a pale shadow of what it used to be back in the 3.5 Chaos codex.

Shibboleth
07-03-2008, 08:12
...and Marneus will upgrade his Command Squad to an Honour Guard... Assuming Command Squads are still going to exist.
Chaos Lords have lost their Retinues. :cries: SM will probably follow...?

MrBigMr
07-03-2008, 08:24
Assuming Command Squads are still going to exist.
Chaos Lords have lost their Retinues. :cries: SM will probably follow...?
DA and BA both get them, so if we're going that way, I'm sure they'll get something like those things.

Intrepid Adventurer
07-03-2008, 08:39
Wait, am I the only one here thinking: "ANOTHER Marine Codex?!!"

Curufew
07-03-2008, 08:45
Wait, am I the only one here thinking: "ANOTHER Marine Codex?!!"

Nope, you're not the only one.

RSIxidor
07-03-2008, 09:06
Wait, am I the only one here thinking: "ANOTHER Marine Codex?!!"

Not everyone necessarily wants one, but realizes that a new edition pretty frankly means we're getting one.

Hrafn
07-03-2008, 10:15
Wait, am I the only one here thinking: "ANOTHER Marine Codex?!!"


Nope, you're not the only one.


Because what we want is that the Codex used by a majority of players should be left untouched and badly out of whack in regards to the new design strategy with the attending balance issues? :rolleyes:

Listen, please understand that the Marine Codex has dispropertionate effect on the game as a whole, given that there are so many SM players. Thus, for the better of the game, it's better to update that Codex as fast as possible. You might not like Marines and would rather see for instance a DE Codex (not that I'd say no to that ;), but if the whole of 40K is more affected by the rules in the Marine Codex, then I'd also vote for that being updated. This is really not above shiny new stuff as such (though GW will surely do it anyway to get some fast money;)), it's about getting the rules up to date. Which is sorely needed, given the disparity between BA/DA and Codex Marines on a deeper level (combat squads, points values, weapon availability and wargear just to mention some)

Arkturas
07-03-2008, 16:06
A main point about the new SM codex (unless it's specifically going to be Codex: Ultramarines) is that it has to have more options than the DA or BA codicies for the standard SM units and characters.

The speculation is how far will it go to allow unusual combinations from the past and the previous codex that make up some chapters and then which chapters and are they how you want to play them (Iron Hands could be trickier to include than say Salamanders).

Supremearchmarshal
07-03-2008, 20:33
What S-things, my good sir? I have no recollection of such things to be a part of the 40K universe nor never being a part of it.

No idea, I must have been rambling.


Could be. I'm interested to see how Iron Hands will be made with their terminator sergeants etc. A special character or what?

The pessimist in me says Iron Hands with Terminator Sergeants will get the axe... Maybe, just maybe there'll be Techmarine special character (which would be cool).


A main point about the new SM codex (unless it's specifically going to be Codex: Ultramarines) is that it has to have more options than the DA or BA codicies for the standard SM units and characters.

Probably, though consider that the DA codex is a full-length codex, unlike the 3rd edition one. The new SM codex could include more options, but I just can't see it having all the traits etc, especially since the CSM codex dropped the legions.

However, the negative response to dropping the legions might cause a change of design philosophy.

Oh, and if it's got only Ultramarines I think GW will have a lynch mob on its hands.

MrBigMr
07-03-2008, 23:26
The pessimist in me says Iron Hands with Terminator Sergeants will get the axe... Maybe, just maybe there'll be Techmarine special character (which would be cool).
Not just axed, but power axed. Like the furious axe of Ultramar striking down with a vengeance. I do hope they make something like a special character still available, since it would go against fluff big time. Or are they going to rewrite that too ("Um, yeah, they like got stocked up on new terminators and are not fully kitted out. Or something. lol.")


Oh, and if it's got only Ultramarines I think GW will have a lynch mob on its hands.
No, not just that, but also declade all other SM codexes obsolite. Who needs them anyways? You can make them all with the vanilla one. You got your "neophyte" scouts, your "deathwing" terminators, your "ravenwing" bikes and land speeders, your "crusaders, grey hunters, etc." tactical marines, etc.
Come on, people, "Counts Ass". What's the problem? It worked for Chaos, didn't it? Oh, right...


But to tell the truth, I'm starting to warm up to the idea of the new codex. If it's anything like DA/BA ones but with more options, I think I'll manage. But still the lack of proper stuff pisses me off.

Why can't an assault sergeant pick a two-handed weapon? Wouldn't a combi-melta or -flamer be a good option, let a lone a storm bolter to go with a weapons like lightning claws or power fists (heard that they would be like lightning claws in the new rulebook, aka. +1 attack only when fielding double)? Why can't I chooce to replace the bolt pistol on my sergeant for a power fist and not the bolter? And why am I forced to take Iron Halo with my commander?

These "forced down our throats" options really get to me.

Occulto
07-03-2008, 23:41
Assuming Command Squads are still going to exist.
Chaos Lords have lost their Retinues. :cries: SM will probably follow...?

I'm doubtful of that. It'd make the command squad box pretty redundant.

As for flexibility, I doubt whether it'll be as rigid as DA or BA. Both of those deal with very specific chapters, after all, they're not "generic" codices.

Some things will be in there - terminators with one heavy, 5/10 squads, limits on heavy weapons, increased costs for upgrades.

One thing I've wondered about - what if those Masters of the Chapter figures turn out to be suited for "trait" special characters. So taking "Master of the Recruits" gives you the option of doing a Scout list.

Ironhand
08-03-2008, 00:02
I'll put money on scouts moving to Elites in the new Codex, and I think that's a good thing.

shabbadoo
08-03-2008, 08:00
Why can't I chooce to replace the bolt pistol on my sergeant for a power fist and not the bolter? And why am I forced to take Iron Halo with my commander?

These "forced down our throats" options really get to me.

Well, get used to it. Many of the options are geared at making sense. A pistol is a standard piece of wargear for an Assault Marine, so the sergeant of such a standard equipped unit is going to have a pistol of some kind(whether it is a bolt pistol or a plasma pistol). It is the old bringing a knife to a gun fight thing.

Combi-weapons are being brought back into line with what they are- rare pieces of wargear, and as such they are only available to HQ choices and Veteran Squads(and maybe Command Squads in C:SM) who have the clout to request the use of them. You just won't find them scattered among every squad leader any longer.

The option for taking a Venerable Dreadnought will be in the new codex as a simple Dreadnought upgrade, as it is in C: DA.

Techmarines are not useless by any means. The loss of the signum simply means that they will no longer be used as very expensive Devastator Squad targeter monkeys(which is how I often see them used), so they will actually have to do what they are supposed to do- support vehicles.:eek: They are quite a bit better than useless when backing up Dreadnoughts(take a lesson from the Orks here), and a Techmarine with a servo harness is nothing to laugh at in combat either.

Mad King George
08-03-2008, 08:42
noway ven dreds are sw's hq only

Huw_Dawson
08-03-2008, 09:40
and a Techmarine with a servo harness is nothing to laugh at in combat either.

"Lol! My Techmarine has 2 Power fist attacks along with all his base weaponry!"

"Yeah, dude! Guess what my Aspiring Champion has! A POWER FIST!"

"Dude, thats just so... inferior, dude."

"Dude, lemme roll" *Rolls a 4, then a 2* "He's dead, dude."

No invunerable save, T4 and No ID immunity HURTS.

- Huw

Supremearchmarshal
08-03-2008, 14:14
But to tell the truth, I'm starting to warm up to the idea of the new codex. If it's anything like DA/BA ones but with more options, I think I'll manage. But still the lack of proper stuff pisses me off.

Why can't an assault sergeant pick a two-handed weapon? Wouldn't a combi-melta or -flamer be a good option, let a lone a storm bolter to go with a weapons like lightning claws or power fists (heard that they would be like lightning claws in the new rulebook, aka. +1 attack only when fielding double)? Why can't I chooce to replace the bolt pistol on my sergeant for a power fist and not the bolter? And why am I forced to take Iron Halo with my commander?

These "forced down our throats" options really get to me.

My thoughts exactly. I don't mind restricting heavy weapons, the death of las-plas and I look forward to combat squads, but I can do without the forcing of wargear and special characters thank you.



Well, get used to it. Many of the options are geared at making sense. A pistol is a standard piece of wargear for an Assault Marine, so the sergeant of such a standard equipped unit is going to have a pistol of some kind(whether it is a bolt pistol or a plasma pistol). It is the old bringing a knife to a gun fight thing.

As I explained earlier, the original intent of a model having only a single weapon listed was that it's the model's main weapon. The way it works now is just ridiculous. The pistol is used only when charging, meaning a Marine puts away his bolter, draws a pistol and then charges towards his enemy firing the pistol. Why doesn't he just keep firing the Bolter?


Combi-weapons are being brought back into line with what they are- rare pieces of wargear, and as such they are only available to HQ choices and Veteran Squads(and maybe Command Squads in C:SM) who have the clout to request the use of them. You just won't find them scattered among every squad leader any longer.

Well CSM Champions use them. And I think that CSM would have less access to advanced weaponry.


Techmarines are not useless by any means. The loss of the signum simply means that they will no longer be used as very expensive Devastator Squad targeter monkeys(which is how I often see them used), so they will actually have to do what they are supposed to do- support vehicles.:eek: They are quite a bit better than useless when backing up Dreadnoughts(take a lesson from the Orks here), and a Techmarine with a servo harness is nothing to laugh at in combat either.

Yeah, you can reliably repair your vehicle for only 100+ points. Or... you could buy a second vehicle instead.

StanMcKim
08-03-2008, 14:46
I don't know if it has been mentioned yet (I'm not reading through 200 posts to find out) is the possibility of putting the different "Masters of the Chapter" in the book as distinct HQ options. Example, if you take Master of the Fleet your drop pods don't deviate, or if you take Master of Recruits than scouts can be taken as troops, etc...
I think this would give people a really viable (and fluffy) reason to take Commanders and allow for something resembling traits without having to actually put them in.
-Stan

MrBigMr
08-03-2008, 22:15
I don't know if it has been mentioned yet (I'm not reading through 200 posts to find out) is the possibility of putting the different "Masters of the Chapter" in the book as distinct HQ options. Example, if you take Master of the Fleet your drop pods don't deviate, or if you take Master of Recruits than scouts can be taken as troops, etc...
I think this would give people a really viable (and fluffy) reason to take Commanders and allow for something resembling traits without having to actually put them in.
-Stan
That is a viable option, although I do hope they don't make them into ready made characters with the gear on the models GW came out with. If that happens, I won't s*** straight for a week.


No invunerable save, T4 and No ID immunity HURTS.
Except that if Techmarines lose their IC status, you have to wade through the servitors first.


Well CSM Champions use them. And I think that CSM would have less access to advanced weaponry.
One reasonable argument that I made in another thread was that Chaos isn't bound by the restrictions of the loyalist chapters (aka. a rifleman is a rifleman, not a sapper). CSM use that ever gear they like, where as loyalists have their gear issued to them.

But then again, like so many chapters have proven already, not all of them follow the word of Papa Smurf and his damn codex. So why can't I make a chapter that has assault squads equipped with flamers/meltas and tactical sergeants running around with storm bolters?

But I'm still amazed that I have to give up my bolter in order to get a power first, rather than give up the pistol. Seems wrong. Ok, reason would say "take the pistol/fisting combo, y00 getz more attaks", but what if I want my sergeant able to engage at long ranges too? Besides, if a model only has one arm, it won't be able to field two one handed weapons.


Yeah, you can reliably repair your vehicle for only 100+ points. Or... you could buy a second vehicle instead.
Well, I was going to take a servo-harness techmarine no matter what, mostly because it'll make a nice obliterator (almost the same stats with vast array of weapons) and I've already made plans for the model and its fluff.

Supremearchmarshal
08-03-2008, 22:45
One reasonable argument that I made in another thread was that Chaos isn't bound by the restrictions of the loyalist chapters (aka. a rifleman is a rifleman, not a sapper). CSM use that ever gear they like, where as loyalists have their gear issued to them.

True, though CSM would find it harder to produce and maintain them. Of course, you could also argue the Champion has a mutation/gift/ancient artifact allowing him to produce a similar effect.


But then again, like so many chapters have proven already, not all of them follow the word of Papa Smurf and his damn codex. So why can't I make a chapter that has assault squads equipped with flamers/meltas and tactical sergeants running around with storm bolters?

Actually, the 2nd edition codex: Ultramarines allows Veteran Sergeants to take Combi-Weapons. Seems even Papa Smurf was more open-minded than the game designers...


Well, I was going to take a servo-harness techmarine no matter what, mostly because it'll make a nice obliterator (almost the same stats with vast array of weapons) and I've already made plans for the model and its fluff.

That's a cool idea.

intellectawe
09-03-2008, 03:07
Question for you rumor buffs.

Do you think the 5th ed codex will allow 1 heavy choice per tactical squad as it does currently? I am not a Marine expert, so I don't know Marine codex trends.

Occulto
09-03-2008, 06:04
Question for you rumor buffs.

Do you think the 5th ed codex will allow 1 heavy choice per tactical squad as it does currently? I am not a Marine expert, so I don't know Marine codex trends.

I wouldn't bet on it. New codices have all restricted the number of heavy weapons. If the SM codex allows tac squads between 5 and 10, I still think it'd be likely they would have to be 10 strong to get either the heavy or a second special weapon.

shabbadoo
09-03-2008, 13:03
Sure that Aspiring Champion's power fist will insta-kill the Techmarine; he just needs to get past the techie's twin-linked plasma pistol, flamer, and at least 3 power weapon attacks first to be able to use it. Taking the odds into consideration, that isn't very likely. Perhaps somebody overlooked all of that. Overall, the Techmarine can be useful among unit choices that take advantage of his abilities/equipment.

Even though Aspiring Champions can get combi-weapons(Chaos actually has maintained their old skool combi-weapon tech), don't expect their Imperial counterparts to be able to necessarily get them too. The Imperials might get them, but likely not, just as a means of differentiating what are in effect very similar army types. This is the case with both Dark Angels and Blood Angels Veteran Sergeants, who's unit leaders do not have access to them, so it isn’t looking good. Besides, it is fairly obvious that GW doesn't want units of Chaos and Imperial Marines to be carbon copies of one another. It is a simple way to further differentiate them.