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Mechanicus
19-02-2008, 15:31
I have just finished Legion, one of Abnett's best works in my opinion. If you don't want to know any spoilers or any of the secrets listed ahead, don't read any further.

So - I'll start with the story itself; I liked it. It kept me interested and, well, the subtitle isn't secrets and lies for nothing. I felt that although some outlandish claims were thrown around, but they were done in a good way. Nice ending, and enjoyable. It takes place around two years before Isstvan V, and ends just about during the beginning of Horus Rising.

You barely see the Alpha Legion itself at work. You see it from the perspective of the Imperial Army, but little to nothing is from the Legion's perspective.

Also, it's much more... flavoursome and different, I suppose, than the others, though that might be more to do with the few astartes viewpoints in it. It felt more sci-fi to me than the rest of the series so far. It seemed a bit fresher rather than the well-trodden warporn you get from some BL books, though I don't object to those books on the principal of them being so - I'm entertained easily. :p

Now onto those secrets that were rumoured. I would like to just disabuse some of you as to the nature of them. There is no word of the missing Legions - well, a possibility as you'll see. Nothing on Alpharius' homeworld either. A few things of note:

1. The Cabal is a sort of council of the 'old kinds' - essentially, it seems to be a few of the remaining Old One races that survived to the present, much like what Gav Thorpe suggested on these forums so long ago, but on a lesser scale. They, it seems, took notice of mankind and recruited humans to their cause 'as long as there had been humans to recruit', because their farsight caused them to see that they would pay a pitiful part in the galaxy. They sought the Alpha Legion out to persuade them to join their cause, which I'll elaborate on later, because they were not blinded by the Imperial dogma like the other Legions, being the last founded.

2. Alpharius, primarch of the Alpha Legion has two bodies. One soul, two bodies, according to the Cabal. The other is named Omegon, rather unimaginatively. What this precisely means, I don't know. I presume that they were in the same pod; if they weren't then we have a missing primarch, but I doubt it. However, this does hint that Alpharius didn't die over at Eskrador. Not all of him, at least...

3. The Alpha Legion was loyal to the Emperor. Or to his ideals, at least. Due to circumstances which I will elaborate on below, Alpharius/Omegon decided the best way to remain loyal to his ideals was to join the traitors. See below.

4. The Cabal saw that the one way to defeat the Chaos gods (Primordial Annihilator, as the Cabal say) is to sacrifice humanity. The precise nature of why wasn't elaborated on, but a short vision of a galaxy with Horus ruling was shown. Horus, riven with self loathing and anger because he still had honour in the end. He felt guilt at his actions, and began to take out that guilt on others. Even his closest friends war with him. The human race will die within two or three generations. Chaos will burn brighter than ever in the final armageddon, before being extinguished as humanity brings the Chaos Gods down with them, and bringing down the Chaos Gods is the Emperor's highest priority. Humanity's sacrifice, in other words, saves the rest of the galaxy. We don't precisely know why that would happen, but perhaps it has something to do with 'overdosing' on humanity, neglecting other possible subjects, and not being able to sustain themselves afterwards, with the bulk of the emotional vibrancy in the galaxy gone; or perhaps Horus finds a way to take out vengeance on the gods - who knows? Just my thoughts. Of course, there's no way of verifying that would happen, or if the Cabal were just trying to manipulate Alpharius/Omegon into doing their bidding.

5. It also gives a view into the galaxy if Horus loses. Humanity stagnating, dying a slow death, with 'ten, twenty thousand years of misery and rot' to follow, until Chaos achieves ascendency. So that's the Cabal's prediction of the end of 40k within ten millennia - unless they found another plan, of course.

I don't know if Abnett thought one or two of these was meant to be one secret, or if I included two secrets in one, or perhaps I missed one in my enthralment, but that's what I got out of it.

So there you go - enjoy. :D

Captain Stern
19-02-2008, 15:52
I thought it wasn't out till March? How come you've read it already?:confused:

Mechanicus
19-02-2008, 16:06
Pre-orders are sent out around ten days before release (so to arrive on time for the scheduled release in the worst case scenario of eight days delivery time), and mine arrived this morning. :D I'm certainly not complaining - though I think my friends think I'm neglecting them. I was a bit anti-social and read the book for most of my three study periods and one cancelled lesson today! ;)

Captain Stern
19-02-2008, 16:17
I didn't know that before! Damnation!

Lastie
19-02-2008, 17:03
If you don't want to know any spoilers or any of the secrets listed ahead, don't read any further.

As I've read up about each HH book long before getting round to reading it, this isn't anything different for me. :p


It takes place around two years before Isstvan V, and ends just about during the beginning of Horus Rising.

Why do I get the feeling that unless BL is keeping very good care with the chronology in this series, we'll soon have a gigantic mess of a timeline comparable to the Star Wars Expanded Universe? Keep close eye on things kids; cookies for those who spot the continuity errors first!


You barely see the Alpha Legion itself at work. You see it from the perspective of the Imperial Army, but little to nothing is from the Legion's perspective.

Finally a HH book that isn't from a Space Marine's point of view. I like this book already ...


1. The Cabal is a sort of council of the 'old kinds' - essentially, it seems to be a few of the remaining Old One races that survived to the present, much like what Gav Thorpe suggested on these forums so long ago, but on a lesser scale. They, it seems, took notice of mankind from the end of their great war in heaven and recruited humans to their cause 'as long as there had been humans to recruit', because their farsight caused them to see that they would pay a pitiful part in the galaxy. They sought the Alpha Legion out to persuade them to join their cause, which I'll elaborate on later, because they were not blinded by the Imperial dogma like the other Legions, being the last founded.

Now this I quite like. I've never really bought that the Old Ones were a) a single race, or b) died out. I liked the idea that the 'Old Ones' were a collection of some of the galaxy's (or perhaps universe's, more on that later) oldest races. It would make sense that an alliance would share technology, so all would receive longevity treatment, which was the main reason why the Necrontyr hated them so much.

For the Old Ones to still exist suggests a more Lovecraftian theme of great alien powers beyond our comprehension using Humanity as mere pawns in a huge power struggle over the two universes (ours and the Empyrean). This is quite bleak, and should be encouraged (anything that makes Humanity insignificant in the Grand Scheme of Things is quite 40K).

I'm going to be somewhat heretical here, for a vast number of Eldar fans, and suggest that if the Old Ones are an alliance of races, the possibility that the Eldar pantheon were Old Ones improves. This also makes it likely that Cegorach (the Laughing God) is part of this Cabal.

I do, however, have to raise issue with your mention that the Old Ones took notice of Humanity near the end of the War in Heaven - Humanity didn't exist until long after the War in Heaven ended. A good sixty-odd million years in fact. GW plot hole, perhaps?


2. Alpharius, primarch of the Alpha Legion has two bodies. One soul, two bodies. The other is named Omegon, rather unimaginatively. What this precisely means, I don't know. I presume that they were in the same pod; if they weren't then we have a missing primarch, but I doubt it. However, this does hint that Alpharius didn't die over at Eskrador. Not all of him, at least...

An excellent trait! Although it does raise into question why the Emperor made the Primarchs genetically different in so many ways. Where they prototypes, and the best Primarch would have been used as the blueprint for the next generation of Astartes. Or did he merely feel that good diversity would give Humanity an edge? Still doesn't answer which Primarch could do invisible though ...

This also does heavily hint, unless one of Alpharius dies during the Heresy, that Alpharius is still alive somewhere in M41. As somewhat of an Alpharius fan, this is good.

However, this does raise more questions on the mechanics of a soul. Can a soul occupy two physical manifestations at the same time? Or does he switch from body to body as when he feels like it?

I've always believed a soul to be a sort of 'shadow' in the warp caused by warp-sensitive sentient beings. In this case, Alpharius is two individual beings casting the same warp shadow.


3. The Alpha Legion was loyal to the Emperor. Or to his ideals, at least. Due to circumstances which I will elaborate on below, Alpharius/Omegon decided the best way to remain loyal to his ideals was to join the traitors. See below.

It had to happen sooner or later. The Loyal Traitor Legion.


4. The Cabal saw that the one way to defeat the Chaos gods (Primordial Annihilator, as the Cabal say) is to sacrifice humanity.

Now this is where I hit a small brick wall in my enjoyment of these 'twists'. Why is Humanity so important? In the entire universe, in every single galaxy that currently exists (of which there's more than the stars in our own galaxy) Humanity is apparently the only species now capable of sustaining the Chaos Gods ... giant warp vortices that occupy another universe, which itself is a reflection of our universe. That's the entire universe, not just our galaxy.

It's so Humans are Superior (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumanityIsSuperior) it's not even funny anymore. Yay us! We alone sustain the great Chaos Powers! You see Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, and Nurgle? All us baby! :eyebrows:


5. It also gives a view into the galaxy if Horus loses. Humanity stagnating, dying a slow death, with 'ten, twenty thousand years of misery and rot' to follow, until Chaos achieves ascendency. So that's the Cabal's prediction of the end of 40k in ten millennia time - unless they found another plan, of course.

Of course the natural and delicious conclusion to all this is that Chaos wanted to lose the Heresy. They wanted the Loyalists to win, and in essence the Loyalists lost by winning. The irony of that is priceless, and the image of Tzeentch sitting back uttering 'Just As Planned' when the Emperor slays Horus deliciously 40K. Very approved.

All in all. I like where this is going ... somewhat.

Mechanicus
19-02-2008, 17:23
Why do I get the feeling that unless BL is keeping very good care with the chronology in this series, we'll soon have a gigantic mess of a timeline comparable to the Star Wars Expanded Universe? Keep close eye on things kids; cookies for those who spot the continuity errors first!I've been keeping a quiet eye to it - it's reasonably good so far.

Finally a HH book that isn't from a Space Marine's point of view. I like this book already ...The characters definitely felt more personable.

Now this I quite like. I've never really bought that the Old Ones were a) a single race, or b) died out. I liked the idea that the 'Old Ones' were a collection of some of the galaxy's (or perhaps universe's, more on that later) oldest races. It would make sense that an alliance would share technology, so all would receive longevity treatment, which was the main reason why the Necrontyr hated them so much.

For the Old Ones to still exist suggests a more Lovecraftian theme of great alien powers beyond our comprehension using Humanity as mere pawns in a huge power struggle over the two universes (ours and the Empyrean). This is quite bleak, and should be encouraged (anything that makes Humanity insignificant in the Grand Scheme of Things is quite 40K).

I'm going to be somewhat heretical here, for a vast number of Eldar fans, and suggest that if the Old Ones are an alliance of races, the possibility that the Eldar pantheon were Old Ones improves. This also makes it likely that Cegorach (the Laughing God) is part of this Cabal.

I do, however, have to raise issue with your mention that the Old Ones took notice of Humanity near the end of the War in Heaven - Humanity didn't exist until long after the War in Heaven ended. A good sixty-odd million years in fact. GW plot hole, perhaps? I agree - I expect some of the people who are less happy with the whole C'tan-Old Ones story insertion won't be too pleased, but I've never had too much of a problem with it. Oh, and on that last note of the plot hole, I've just checked, and this is me misremembering and misinterpreting the text. :o

An excellent trait! Although it does raise into question why the Emperor made the Primarchs genetically different in so many ways. Where they prototypes, and the best Primarch would have been used as the blueprint for the next generation of Astartes. Or did he merely feel that good diversity would give Humanity an edge? Still doesn't answer which Primarch could do invisible though ...

This also does heavily hint, unless one of Alpharius dies during the Heresy, that Alpharius is still alive somewhere in M41. As somewhat of an Alpharius fan, this is good.

However, this does raise more questions on the mechanics of a soul. Can a soul occupy two physical manifestations at the same time? Or does he switch from body to body as when he feels like it?

I've always believed a soul to be a sort of 'shadow' in the warp caused by warp-sensitive sentient beings. In this case, Alpharius is two individual beings casting the same warp shadow. I've always seen a soul as being the warp presence of a being, and that all warp presences are imprinted by the thoughts and emotions of the being/thing (I used this premise of mine to expand on my thoughts on machine spirits, but that's besides the point), and so I would think that they had two minds. Two very similar minds, of course, with the side effect of them both being empathic towards each other. EDIT: Also, see this (http://menducia.atspace.com/primarchs/VI.html) for a co-incidence... or is it?!

It had to happen sooner or later. The Loyal Traitor Legion.Well, they at least chose the one that didn't have a motive for turning against the Emperor already.

Now this is where I hit a small brick wall in my enjoyment of these 'twists'. Why is Humanity so important? In the entire universe, in every single galaxy that currently exists (of which there's more than the stars in our own galaxy) Humanity is apparently the only species now capable of sustaining the Chaos Gods ... giant warp vortices that occupy another universe, which itself is a reflection of our universe. That's the entire universe, not just our galaxy.

It's so Humans are Superior (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumanityIsSuperior) it's not even funny anymore. Yay us! We alone sustain the great Chaos Powers! You see Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, and Nurgle? All us baby! :eyebrows:Yes, it is a bit humano-centric. I've contrived to find a logical reason for this, but I can't see it. The only way it would work was if the rest of the galaxy was purely Tyranids, and I don't like that.

Of course the natural and delicious conclusion to all this is that Chaos wanted to lose the Heresy. They wanted the Loyalists to win, and in essence the Loyalists lost by winning.That's almost a direct quote by Alpharius... :p
The irony of that is priceless, and the image of Tzeentch sitting back uttering 'Just As Planned' when the Emperor slays Horus deliciously 40K. Very approved.

All in all. I like where this is going ... somewhat.Understandable, really. :)

RobC
19-02-2008, 17:43
I think you're being too literal with your assertion that Alpharius is one soul in two bodies. My interpretation is that Alpharius and Omegon are simply twins, one primarch zygote that split into two at some point in gestation. The autarch asks to speak to both of them because, in a sense, they are both the primarch - but this doesn't have to be a literal split in the soul.

As for the Cabal... there's nothing to suggest that they are the Old Ones. Yes, they're a collection of ancient aliens, but there's nothing to suggest that they are one and the same. If anything, I got the impression that they are separate from the Old Ones.

Very enjoyable book, by the way. Abnett's Horus Heresy books have eclipsed the rest of the series thus far.

Mechanicus
19-02-2008, 18:01
I think you're being too literal with your assertion that Alpharius is one soul in two bodies. My interpretation is that Alpharius and Omegon are simply twins, one primarch zygote that split into two at some point in gestation. The autarch asks to speak to both of them because, in a sense, they are both the primarch - but this doesn't have to be a literal split in the soul.Well, that's what the Cabal believes - "Alone amongst the genic sons of the Terran Emperor, you are the only twins. You are both the Primarch, one soul in two vessels.", from page 373. Whether it's true (especially considering the subtitle secrets and lies) is another thing.

As for the Cabal... there's nothing to suggest that they are the Old Ones. Yes, they're a collection of ancient aliens, but there's nothing to suggest that they are one and the same. If anything, I got the impression that they are separate from the Old Ones.Perhaps, but there are hints ("It pained them to accept that their destiny, all destinies, lay in the purview of creatures that had been simple, single-cell protocytes when the Old Kind cultures had already been mature." Page 67. Not to mention that the concept of the council of different cultures are similar to what Gav Thorpe said a while back (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=620202#post620202)). Still - open to interpretation. :)

Very enjoyable book, by the way. Abnett's Horus Heresy books have eclipsed the rest of the series thus far.I'll agree on this point, certainly. :)

RobC
19-02-2008, 18:21
Perhaps, but there are hints ("It pained them to accept that their destiny, all destinies, lay in the purview of creatures that had been simple, single-cell protocytes when the Old Kind cultures had already been mature." Page 67. Not to mention that the concept of the council of different cultures are similar to what Gav Thorpe said a while back (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=620202#post620202)). Still - open to interpretation. :)Fair point, and thanks for that link to Gav's comment. I suspect my fondness for the old background (with the Old Slann as the one and only elder race doing all the genetic tinkering) is influencing my opinion just a teeny bit. That said, their name suggests to me that the Cabal are very few, perhaps remnants of other races, and not necessarily a part of the meddling of other races, such as the Old Slann. But this is a guess.

Shame about John Grammaticus - I was hoping we'd learn about what he saw when the Emperor's mask slipped, but I guess they can't give away all the secrets in one book!

GreenDracoBob
19-02-2008, 21:20
I'm not quite sure how I feel about these revelations. But it definitely looks like I'll pick this one up, after skipping Descent of Angels.


In a way, it supports my theory. Alpharius worked for an organization influencing the universe for ages. So the organization did everything, with Alpharius being their tool (if that's the right word).

Tyron
19-02-2008, 22:03
Why would they use the son for their schemes instead of the father? Did they see his fate sealed within the golden throne?

Kandarin
19-02-2008, 23:20
Now this is where I hit a small brick wall in my enjoyment of these 'twists'. Why is Humanity so important? In the entire universe, in every single galaxy that currently exists (of which there's more than the stars in our own galaxy) Humanity is apparently the only species now capable of sustaining the Chaos Gods ... giant warp vortices that occupy another universe, which itself is a reflection of our universe. That's the entire universe, not just our galaxy.

Because humanity is the second most numerous race in the galaxy, and the most numerous race barely feeds the Chaos Gods at all. Because humanity waged a hideous, galaxy-spanning, centuries-long war to eradicate other sentient species, taking special care to target those that fed the Chaos Gods in some way. Because humanity is far from superior - rather, it is inferior, displaying extraordinary vulnerability to the wiles of the Chaos Gods that makes it better prey than most other races out there.

Sure, other races can and have sustained the Chaos Gods, but the vast majority of their nourishment in the age of the Imperium is drawn from humanity. With the possible exception of Slaanesh, the Chaos Gods are very much human gods now, reflecting our sins and weaknesses.

Also, I've seen no indication that the Chaos Gods are spread over the entire universe. It's perfectly possible that they could only influence one galaxy. The only example of a Warp power from outside the galaxy that we've seen so far is the Tyranid Hive Mind, which hardly resembles the Chaos Gods in any way.

Deus Mechanicus
20-02-2008, 01:02
Nice thanks, i'd say the Omegon deal and that Alpha Legion was loyal is a pretty big revelation (even though they're not loyal anymore?)

Though how exactly did he think himself loyal while taking horus's side

Nazguire
20-02-2008, 04:33
Nice thanks, i'd say the Omegon deal and that Alpha Legion was loyal is a pretty big revelation (even though they're not loyal anymore?)

Though how exactly did he think himself loyal while taking horus's side

He thought himself loyal to the Emperor's ideals...not to the Emperor himself. The ends justify the means and all that.

Now there is a group of 'Old One's influencing the galaxy at large akin to Star Trek? We needed this why?

Am I the only one who didn't like the Primarch twins thing?

Kandarin
20-02-2008, 05:29
Am I the only one who didn't like the Primarch twins thing?

As mentioned above, it's a (potential) plot device. It used to be that Alpharius was certainly dead. Now he's not. They still could have come up with a better name than "Omegon".

totgeboren
20-02-2008, 05:40
Hmm, if this Omegon is the Evil Twin, it would explain the behavior of the Alpha Legion after the heresy, because we all know one is always the Evil Twin.

Am I the only one getting a Days of Our Lives flashback?

"He died! Boho, we are all so sad."
*2 episodes later*
"He is back! How?! Oh, he had a twin. Well, he can take his place np."
*2 episodes later*
"Ohnoes! It was the Evil Twin! Doh!! How could we not see that coming?!"

Or am I the only one here who has seen some episodes of Day of Our Lives? :D

BrainFireBob
20-02-2008, 06:17
Reeks of reaching to me- jumping the shark, a la soaps. They've done everything else, so they're forced more and more into the outlandish to try and stay "novel."

Or, I dislike intensely both the Omegon thing, and the Star Trek/Stargate "council of races" thing. If Gav is leaving, I hope it's over his sense of honesty over this kind of thing.

Then again, I'm still seething from Merrett's Horus Heresy writeup, with Fulgrim being possessed- destroying all the drama of his character, because "the devil made him do it."

Brother Siccarius
20-02-2008, 12:52
Reeks of reaching to me- jumping the shark, a la soaps. They've done everything else, so they're forced more and more into the outlandish to try and stay "novel."
Not really, just about everything in the HH series so far was pretty well hinted at, including something like Alpharius. It makes a lot of sense when you consider his tactics in training his legion (Be self sufficient, cut one down and two will rise, like the hydra). Likewise, the fact that he constantly kept secrets from his fellow primarchs (including Horus), like the location of his homeworld, really sets up his story to have some good twists.


Or, I dislike intensely both the Omegon thing, and the Star Trek/Stargate "council of races" thing. If Gav is leaving, I hope it's over his sense of honesty over this kind of thing.


Jeeze, if you start comparing everything to other products in the genre, then nothing is ever going to be good enough, or new. The "Council of Races" thing was already present in the HH books, but on a lesser scale (Horus Rising with the Interex, and Fulgrim). We didn't hear anyone complaining about it then, why now when it's something that was already hinted at in the background (Old ones being multi-racial)?



Then again, I'm still seething from Merrett's Horus Heresy writeup, with Fulgrim being possessed- destroying all the drama of his character, because "the devil made him do it."

There's plenty of drama left in that story, and they're specific enough in the book to show that Fulgrim had enough will power to fight off the demon, but chose not to. Fulgrim led himself into Heresy, the demon was just there to guide him along the path.

Lastie
20-02-2008, 15:26
Because humanity is the second most numerous race in the galaxy, and the most numerous race barely feeds the Chaos Gods at all. Because humanity waged a hideous, galaxy-spanning, centuries-long war to eradicate other sentient species, taking special care to target those that fed the Chaos Gods in some way. Because humanity is far from superior - rather, it is inferior, displaying extraordinary vulnerability to the wiles of the Chaos Gods that makes it better prey than most other races out there.

And you're asking me to believe and accept that in the billions of years the galaxy has existed, in the known 60+ million years that GW have told us life existed and empires rose and fell in our galaxy alone, that no other species did anything like that? Excuse me while I choke upon the vast of species back-slapping that calls for.

Humanity = we're so special!

It's honestly so absurd, and a huge disgrace to what is otherwise an amazing construct of a universe if Chaos was merely limited to being Humanity's arch-nemesis and everyone else's mere annoyance. Chaos should be the resultant of all life in the universe, anything that taps into the Warp, anything that has a soul should influence, be influenced by, and have a chance to worship Chaos. Mankind shouldn't have a pedestal and 'Chaos Number One Fan' to wear around their neck when we're not even the most powerful psychic race in the galaxy (by a long shot).

Before their Fall, the Eldar alone would have been giving off more happy meals with their emotional excess (and not just to Slaanesh). Then we have the Orks ... keeping Khorne happy since 60,000,000BC.


Hmm, if this Omegon is the Evil Twin, it would explain the behavior of the Alpha Legion after the heresy, because we all know one is always the Evil Twin.

Please no. That trope's so old even the dinosaurs stopped using it.


Then again, I'm still seething from Merrett's Horus Heresy writeup, with Fulgrim being possessed- destroying all the drama of his character, because "the devil made him do it."

Join the club. I'm getting t-shirts printed. :p


Not really, just about everything in the HH series so far was pretty well hinted at, including something like Alpharius. It makes a lot of sense when you consider his tactics in training his legion (Be self sufficient, cut one down and two will rise, like the hydra). Likewise, the fact that he constantly kept secrets from his fellow primarchs (including Horus), like the location of his homeworld, really sets up his story to have some good twists.

Sometimes you have to wonder if these things would be as good as they are if the secrets were revealed. So far I like what I've heard about Alpharius (makes a change :p).

Malcador
20-02-2008, 15:49
In the third edition Chaos Space Marines Codex it specifically states that humanity created the Chaos Gods, except for Slaanesh, who was created by the Eldar. So yeah, to the chaos gods, humanity is special

GW has a history of stealing from/being inspired by other forms of fantasy or sci-fi. For example, Loren forest in WHFB, Loth-Lorien in LOTR.

I really don't care if they re-use stuff, as long as the story remains a nice read. Better steal something that's a good idea, than to come up with a bad one yourself, is what I always say

Lastie
20-02-2008, 17:32
In the third edition Chaos Space Marines Codex it specifically states that humanity created the Chaos Gods, except for Slaanesh, who was created by the Eldar. So yeah, to the chaos gods, humanity is special

I don't remember that ever being stated in the 3rd Ed Codex, any chance of a page reference? I know it's mentioned in Realm of Chaos (one of them, probably Slaves to Darkness), although in that case it's not so much outright stated as very heavily inferred.

Still, if this is true the sheer in-universe logic breach is of such great proportions that I'm surprised 40K hasn't collapsed in upon itself to create a Fluff Black Hole of sorts. Consider: it took the Eldar, a species whose basic examples is as good as a trained Human psyker, and whose psychic potential far outstrips our own (stated quite outright in the Eldar background) several thousand years of concentrated (albeit unwitting) effort to create a single Chaos Power. Yet, somehow, without knowing, Humanity created three in the course of a couple of centuries.

It's been one aspect of an otherwise excellent and awe-inspiring series of books I haven't regretted forgetting. Humanity isn't special, we just wish we were.

Kandarin
20-02-2008, 19:35
Humanity = we're so special!

Yeah, we screwed up big time! Go us!


Chaos should be the resultant of all life in the universe, anything that taps into the Warp, anything that has a soul should influence, be influenced by, and have a chance to worship Chaos.

The Hive Mind says otherwise. It also says you're a tasty little meatsack. Is a whole galaxy not vast enough to make Chaos the big bad?


Before their Fall, the Eldar alone would have been giving off more happy meals with their emotional excess (and not just to Slaanesh).

Before the Fall, the Eldar surely made up most of the nourishment of the Chaos Gods. Then almost all of them died, and now humanity is doing it. After we eventually wither, someone else will. It's hardly unusual for Chaos to play favorites. They've had plenty. It just so happens that it's us at the moment. Why do you presume that the present is more meaningful by reason of being the present? Besides, humanity has no past and no future, so it's all we've got and there's no need to take it away.

ryng_sting
21-02-2008, 17:46
The Necron Codex updated the genesis of the Chaos Gods: it suggested they were one of many catastrophic by-products of the War in Heaven, millions of years before the rise of the human race. Humanity, however, has done much to feed and shape the Chaos Gods in the millenia since.

As Chief Librarian Tigurius of the Ultramarines stated the Tyranids have neither souls nor emotions; they neither attract daemons, nor nourish Chaos.

Lastie
21-02-2008, 19:16
The Hive Mind says otherwise. It also says you're a tasty little meatsack. Is a whole galaxy not vast enough to make Chaos the big bad?

True. The Hive Mind is an interesting anomaly. However, we don't really have sufficient evidence to take this anywhere other than it's a) big, b) has a Warp presence so vast it literally smothers any other warp-sensitive beings and any technology involved with the Warp (although oddly enough D-Cannons and Wraithguns seem to work when warp travel doesn't, even though both involve opening breaches into the Empyrean. Go figure).

However, we cannot take the Tyranids as an example of all life outside the Milky Way either. In fact, we're not sure how widespread the Tyranids are, whether they're simply Andromedan organisms migrating to our galaxy, or they really are the only thing out there (and if they've eaten everything, sheer logistics would probably demand they be older than the universe itself to accomplish this).

In the order to make an educated guess about the state of life outside the Milky Way we need to take life inside our galaxy as an example. Of all the species that have evolved in the Milky Way a vast amount are Warp-sensitive in some way (owing to the Old Ones most likely). However the Old Ones themselves were Warp-sensitive, and if such an event occured in this galaxy the chances of the same event happening elsewhere is likely given the sheer number of galaxies where life could possibly evolve.

So if an Old One-like race evolved in another galaxy, it stands to reason taking our knowledge of sentient race-warp vortex relationships that they too would sustain Chaos in their own way. If all emotions of similar like are drawn together, if they feel similar emotions to the big four (and taking into account that of all the various races in the Milky Way, and having evolved independently of each other (to the most part) we all seem to feel similar emotions), then their emotions would collate with those already sustaining the Big Four. Thus, they feed Chaos as Humanity currently does in a similar manner.

Of course, if their minds are utterly alien to ours they very well might have their own Chaos Gods. Behold Gwark! Chaos God of Mindo! What is Mindo? No idea, but it involves tasty snacks ...


Why do you presume that the present is more meaningful by reason of being the present? Besides, humanity has no past and no future, so it's all we've got and there's no need to take it away.

Why not? If we're utterly insignificant to the point where the universe wouldn't even notice if we suddenly blinked out of existence one second to the next, there's more reason to make our mark on things.

Kandarin
21-02-2008, 21:36
It's entirely possible that other races in other galaxies could feed Chaos-like entities in the Warp, but the Warp's primary function in the fluff (FTL travel) suggests that locations in the Warp correspond to locations in the Material world. Thus, the gulf between galaxies is a vast zone where nothing is being fed to the warp. This corresponds to a dead zone in the Warp that may well confine Chaos *as we know it* to this Galaxy. Who knows what the temptations and nightmares are of the inhabitants of the next galaxy over?

I think you're stuck between two extreme interpretations of Chaos. One says "The Chaos Gods are a totally human invention" and the other says "The Chaos Gods are totally inhuman and no significance can be attached to their relations with humanity." A common ground seems more reasonable. I will use one of the Chaos Gods as an example.

In the Warp, there's a massively powerful vortex of energy embodying a base concept loosely defined as 'anger'. For lack of a comprehensible name, we'll call this vortex RAGE. RAGE is unbelievably ancient, and has been around since the War in Heaven, if not longer. It is entirely possible that it was there at the beginning of the galaxy and will be there at its end (See above about the gulf between galaxies).

All races that are Warp-sensitive can feel the presence and influence of RAGE. However, every race perceives and reacts to it differently. These perceptions and reactions have an effect upon RAGE, and certain facets of it are influenced to resemble the perceptions of the races of the galaxy.

Not all facets of RAGE are equal. Some races are more numerous or more widespread than others. Some races have a stronger influence of the Warp than others. Some facets are quite strong, while the facets of RAGE perceived by small, psychically weak races may be nigh-insignificant. As races wax and wane, certain facets may become more or less powerful.

Before the collapse of a certain race of crystal-boned psionic savants, their perception of RAGE, called Khaine in their tongue, was extraordinarily powerful, and could perhaps be considered 'dominant' - the most prominent facet of RAGE of all. Now it is fairly insignificant.

In recent times, a large portion of the galaxy has become filled with a race of hairy, warlike, numerous, but psionically sensitive civilization-builders. As a result, their perception of RAGE (called Khorne to those that know it) has become very powerful and is easily more significant than any facet of RAGE of any other species at this time.

RAGE is eternal. Khorne is not. RAGE is common to all species. Khorne was created by humans. The other Chaos Powers are similar.

Lastie
21-02-2008, 22:01
RAGE is eternal. Khorne is not. RAGE is common to all species. Khorne was created by humans. The other Chaos Powers are similar.

I'll agree that the facet of Khorne was birthed by Humanity, but the concept of Khorne is far older. Races have been pouring 'rage' into the Warp longer than we have. All Humanity did was add their own and give it a new name.

Fulgrim's Gimp
24-02-2008, 19:38
I finished Legion too and did anyone notice the link with Descent of Angels ? Also although the book was brilliant I thought the whole point was rather moot as whatever aims the AL may have had; at the time of the 41st Millenium they will have been washed away by Chaos. I don't think Chaos is bothered why you follow it just that you do.

Mechanicus
24-02-2008, 19:46
I finished Legion too and did anyone notice the link with Descent of Angels ?The mention of corruption in the Dark Angels, I presume? If so, yes. :D It makes me wonder about the Watchers though...
Also although the book was brilliant I thought the whole point was rather moot as whatever aims the AL may have had; at the time of the 41st Millenium they will have been washed away by Chaos. I don't think Chaos is bothered why you follow it just that you do.Well, that's just it - the Alpha Legion, it seems, gave themselves to Chaos for the Emperor, so to speak. When it all went pear-shaped, they were corrupted and couldn't defeat Chaos, and so they were trapped on that path.

malika
24-02-2008, 20:03
I like the Old Ones project in it, but the whole idea that Alpharius has two bodies is really bugging me. I assume that if they do want to include twins in there they could have just made two of the Primarchs twins instead of this "one soul but two bodies" jibberish.

RobC
24-02-2008, 20:23
I like the Old Ones project in it, but the whole idea that Alpharius has two bodies is really bugging me. I assume that if they do want to include twins in there they could have just made two of the Primarchs twins instead of this "one soul but two bodies" jibberish.They're being poetic. They are twins. It's just that, to the Cabal, they are halves of the Primarch because they emerged from one zygote.

Lastie
24-02-2008, 22:08
... I thought the whole point was rather moot as whatever aims the AL may have had; at the time of the 41st Millenium they will have been washed away by Chaos. I don't think Chaos is bothered why you follow it just that you do.


... the Alpha Legion, it seems, gave themselves to Chaos for the Emperor, so to speak. When it all went pear-shaped, they were corrupted and couldn't defeat Chaos, and so they were trapped on that path.

What do people generally believe happens when one is 'corrupted' by Chaos? You start wearing the Chaos T-shirts and mill about aimlessly for a while occasionally mentioning something about the galaxy burning? It's a religion not a coma; the Alpha Legion is very much alive and active, and whatever plan they originally had has now been altered to encompass their strong belief in Chaos (although I'm not entirely sure how the Alpha Legion worship Chaos, or indeed what facet of Chaos they worship).

Everything they do is now in glory for Chaos, every emotion felt, every action taken, every moment lived is done in glory for Chaos. Hell, if anything they're probably more alive now than they were living as glorified weapons of war.

As for Chaos? Or course it doesn't care. Why should it? When you eat your fried egg in the morning how much thought do you give to the chicken that laid it (unless you like free range like me)? Silly mortals. Just carry on playing your war games ... :p

Fulgrim's Gimp
24-02-2008, 22:25
True, Lastie, I doubt the implications of siding with Horus were completely known to Alpharius. The Cabal mention that the Primarchs have a woeful understanding of the Primordial Annihilator and so Alpharius may have been aware of the consequences of the events,but, not the actual process and so in doing so become corrupted and serving that which originally he was opposed to. Similar to the Death Guard who sided for various reasons, not to become diseased lumps of *****.

Maybe they still follow the Cabal or maybe knowing what they know they destroyed them post heresy.

Does it mean the Watchers are part of the Cabal as well ?

Killgore
25-02-2008, 10:21
I enjoyed reading Legion and rather liked the idea of the twin Alpha's

big questions i have now are... Does the Alpha legion still have the best intentions for the Imperium in the 41st millenium?

Did the surviving twin (asuming the other twin survived the heresy) go mad when his brother might have been slain by the Ultras? (i think it was the Ultras that might have killed one of them)

Does the Cabal survive till the 41st millenium and do they still communicate with the Alpha Legion?

And in latter Horus Heresy books will the Alpha legion manipulate other trator legions/ loyalists??

dam this book has opened a large can of worms.

Lastie
25-02-2008, 10:44
Bottom line: everything that has every happened is probably an Alpha Legion plot. Damn those guys are blatantly Tzeentchian worshippers, they're just in denial as a part of the Grand Masterplan.

As for a tin of invertibrates Killgore; the implications from all this are awesome. However, being the cynic that I am I believe GW will probably not notice just how awesome this could get and choose the options labelled 'dumbed down with extra spikes' instead.

reds8n
25-02-2008, 11:06
In the third edition Chaos Space Marines Codex it specifically states that humanity created the Chaos Gods, except for Slaanesh, who was created by the Eldar. So yeah, to the chaos gods, humanity is special


I took it more that the chaos gods existed before humanity, but owing to the vigour and strength of purpose of humanity, they unconciously shaped the Chaos gods to go in certain directions;

extract from the LIBER KHAOTICA: SLAANESH by Marijan von Staufer


I have been shown other places, perhaps other worlds – I know not. I have seen lands where Man has never trod, though these were not places as they are now, but as they once were. How I know this I cannot tell. Amongst the twinkling stars I saw the dawn of a race that I took to be the Asur, though they lived not upon my world or in my time. I saw them raised from nothing by figures of shadow and light – an ancient and powerful race, the first to have reached into the starry night. Older than gods, and yet mortal and subject to time.

I saw the First Ones leave the star born Asur to return beyond the sky, leaving their charges to grow by themselves. And how swiftly they did! Though millennia sped me from one moment to the next, I saw these star born Asur grow into a mighty and sophisticated culture. I heard their name sung in a thousand psalms of joy and beauty: The Eldar – greater even then the Children of Ulthuan at the height of their power. With a subconscious and natural born talent, they reached into the Chaos Realm and experimented with magic and sorcery, and their works were glorious to behold.

But then the First Ones returned from the darkness beyond the sky, and their strange and vast vessels were scarred and worn, their light dimmed and their shadows dispersing. For I knew that they fought an unending war with the gods that were not of the Aethyr; gods of starlight, vampires of life. The First Ones had returned to inspect The Eldar and judge whether they were yet fit for the battles that lay ahead.

I watched as the First Ones encouraged the younger race to reach further into the other realm, and with their vibrant minds and passionate souls create beings of power to fight the star gods.

But the battle was long and the First Ones were now few, and as their numbers dwindled, so too did their influence over their young creations. Without the wisdom and might of the First Ones to bind them, I saw the Eldar’s warp-beings evolve from sentient beings into living gods – the first true gods of the immaterium. How I wept when the Eldar embraced them as such.

Time moved onwards and I saw the rise of the brother heroes, Eldanesh and Ulthanesh, who alone, in the absence of the First Ones, could control the Warp Gods and summon tem onto the physical plane. I saw them march to war against the silver skinned Yngir, the star gods and their slaves, and I saw them summon the dread lord Khaine, The Eldar’s mighty god of war, to battle with them. I saw the brothers and their god leading their children into battle time and time again, pitting Chaos spawned furies against the soulless technologies of the Yngir. But in time, the boundaries between the gods of the Aethyr and the gods of the stars blurred, and the Eldar could not tell one from another.

In their fury, the gods of the stars and the gods of the Aethyr turned upon each other, capturing or destroying those they could, and striking bargins with those they could not. I saw the forging of the Widow-Makers, the one hundred Swords of Khaine, and I watched the betrayal as one was stolen and hidden far away. I saw the end of shining Althanesh at the hands of the god of Death. I was witness to the final battle in which Khaine was almost split asunder by destruction of the same Death God, and I saw how the endless warfare fanned the embers of Khaine’s fury, filling Him with power and driving Him into madness. Gripped by unquenchable rage, Khaine turned against The Eldar and slew prince Aldanesh.

The number of Chaos-beings grew, and all of them seemed mad and predatory. They seeped into the Empyrean in numbers that eclipse the legions of the Chaos Wastes, and everywhere there was fire and torment.

ECHOES OF THE BIRTH

Time passed again and the star gods fled from the demon plague, taking their armies with them into slumber.

The Eldar had come far throughout the millennia of war, and they had learned from their allies and the gods, from their enemies and the dead. They drove the tide of daemons back to their world, and made sure that the gods remained in Heaven, never again to walk among their children.

From the ashes of the past The Eldar built an empire to eclipse all others. They sailed through the night within vast cities, far larger than any mountain range I have seen. From these drifting islands that floated upon the darkness, The Eldar traded knowledge and goods with the few races that had survived the war. Learning, enlightenment and reason flourished, and they shone brighter than the stars themselves.

Then The Eldar adopted refined and perfected the First One’s skills for measuring the Warp and predicting its movements. They somehow linked their worlds and their floating ships with their magical gateways. I watched as they joined millions of stars under one rule. I walked with them, their unseen companion, as they stepped from world to world, from Heaven to Earth, across distances that defied all measurement. To my eyes their mastery of the universe seemed complete, but then, my eyes are only mortal.

Their experimentation brought them greater understanding of the links between Chaos and thought, links of which I could never have dreamed. The Eldar learned how their thoughts and actions gave form to the Warp, and such was their power that they believed that they could achieve anything – that nothing was beyond them. Faced with this ultimate temptation, I saw them fail. Although many turned from Chaos in disgust, many others continued to use it, believing that they could control the powers their indulgent magics generated in the Warp.

And so it was that I witnessed Slaanesh grow almost entirely from the pleasures of the Eldar. While living, many strove to suppress and control their raging feelings, but when they died their brilliant souls melted back into the broiling energy of the Warp, and all their long-guarded temptations were released, drawn together, and then absorbed by the nascent reality that was Slaanesh. I watched this new power swell with potential energy, its desperation to achieve consciousness only restrained by the determination of a few disciplined Eldar that is should remain unborn. But even by recognising this embryonic Power as a potential, The Eldar had given Slaanesh an identity. Without fully realising what was happening, The Eldar began to be manipulated by the pyschic potential they themselves had conceived.

In the space of but one generation, the majority of The Eldar paused in their quest for enlightenment and chose a darker path of inward-looking excess and debauchery. Daemons and other Chaos entities broke free from the Warp once more, and spread like fire through dry grass across the entirety of The Eldar’s vast empire/

Some of The Eldar renounced the ways of their brothers and sisters, and retreated to their vast city-ships. The Warp-gates were sealed shut that led to the corrupted worlds were sealed shut, and these few noble beings drifted away between the stars. But The Eldar that remained behind sank ever deeper into their dark practices. A radical madness had taken them over, an insanity that had only one end.

THE BIRTH OF SLAANESH

I wept hot tears for The Eldar then, for they had become trapped by the darkness within themselves, that asserted itself more and more as Slaanesh’s power grew; he was like a bubble expanding outwards as the pressure built within, and it was only a matter of time before He burst forth.

And then I witnessed the birth of a new god. Slaanesh sprang into the Immaterium from the psyche of The Eldar with a shattering scream of triumph. A tidal wave of energy ripped through the Warp, dealing the shadow self of every living thing a numbing blow. For the heightened senses of the Eldar it was too much. Billions of Eldar souls were swallowed by Slaanesh, their bodies simply evaporating from the material universe as Chaos broiled from their minds. The few Eldar that had fled, survived the cataclysm, but I knew that they would be forever scarred by the fall of their race.


Really enjoyed Legion, couple of issues though :
Given the Eldar wanted the Imperium to collapse.... why did they fight against Horus' armies on so many occassions ?

I'd thought that it would turn out to be the Eldar who provided the "unexpected help" the Space Wolves got when ambushed by the Aplha Legion. Seems unlikely it was them then. Who does that leave ? The Necrons ?:D

RobC
25-02-2008, 17:52
The autarch in the Cabal doesn't represent the eldar, I think. He's there as an individual, in much the same way John Grammaticus is.

GlynG
26-02-2008, 12:30
And you're asking me to believe and accept that in the billions of years the galaxy has existed, in the known 60+ million years that GW have told us life existed and empires rose and fell in our galaxy alone, that no other species did anything like that? Excuse me while I choke upon the vast of species back-slapping that calls for.

Humanity = we're so special!I agree it is a silly tired old cliché, but then most of the 40K setting an universe is patently absurd in many ways: that so much of a interstellar galactic power struggle would be decided by close quarters ground based fighting with hero characters playing an inordinately over-inflated role in affecting events is patently ludicrous, or that a chapter of a mere 1,000 warriors could have any real chance of defeating an entire planet - modern day China has over 2 millions soldiers and I don't care how genetically engineered or how somewhat more advanced SM weaponry and equipment is, against a decent military of even one moderately sized contemporary nation a chapter could be defeated by simple numeric superiority, ordinance and air strikes.

But then at the end of the day this is a background grown out of selling toy soldiers to gamers and kiddies and not anything that aspires to true literary worth - if you want sweeping galactic politics and warfare over billions of years which truly appreciates the magnitude of that and explores all sorts of crazy sci-fi concepts and possibilities then check out the Faction Paradox (http://www.randomstatic.net/fp-about.php) books such as The Book of The War (http://www.madnorwegian.com/fp/product.php?item=Bfp00botw) or Iain M Banks' Culture novels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture) - both are exponentially better than anything in the BL range. I still dabble in the HH books for old times sake but it's more of a guilty pleasure these days. Dan Abnett at least, unlike the majority of BL writers, is a capable author and Legion's a good book by the standards of the range, but I'm just getting bored and increasingly tempted to cherry pick the final book and any other particularly interesting event ones and skip the rest.

Lastie
26-02-2008, 13:06
But then at the end of the day this is a background grown out of selling toy soldiers to gamers and kiddies and not anything that aspires to true literary worth ...

Oh I agree that the current crop of 40K fiction are no literary masterpieces by far, but the background they're culled from is quite evocative could make amazing works of fiction if someone took the effort. It just annoys me when the writer's get so lazy like this ... <wanders off to rant somewhere else> :p

Although to be fair on 40K, it was originally background grown to sell models to relatively mature players. It's only in recent years with corporate drive GW has noticed the bottomless pits of money that kids are and adjusted accordingly.

starlight
26-02-2008, 13:54
Actually, sorry but The Kids (tm):p have been GW's target audience for well past half of 40K's existence and the vast majority of BL's output has been during that time... and sadly they aren't the bottomless pits of money, nor do they have the long term potential of older gamers.:(

That said, it would be nice to see some writers who breathe *epic* life into some of the aspects of 40K and WFB. So much, it seems, is just brain candy...:( Perhaps one day someone will compile an Omnibus of the entire HH saga, and tie it all up in a neat package that both reads well, and challenges the reader...

Lastie
26-02-2008, 14:43
Actually, sorry but The Kids (tm) have been GW's target audience for well past half of 40K's existence and the vast majority of BL's output has been during that time... and sadly they aren't the bottomless pits of money, nor do they have the long term potential of older gamers.

I did say 'originally', and the 'bottomless pits of money' comment was me being somewhat sarcastic. :p Must remember to tag it next time ...


That said, it would be nice to see some writers who breathe *epic* life into some of the aspects of 40K and WFB.

That would be nice ... still we can all dream I suppose.

Norminator
28-02-2008, 16:36
True, Lastie, I doubt the implications of siding with Horus were completely known to Alpharius. The Cabal mention that the Primarchs have a woeful understanding of the Primordial Annihilator and so Alpharius may have been aware of the consequences of the events,but, not the actual process and so in doing so become corrupted and serving that which originally he was opposed to. Similar to the Death Guard who sided for various reasons, not to become diseased lumps of *****.

Maybe they still follow the Cabal or maybe knowing what they know they destroyed them post heresy.

Does it mean the Watchers are part of the Cabal as well ?

Exactly what I thought - I took the reference as a direct one to Descent of Angels. Interesting to say the least.


They're being poetic. They are twins. It's just that, to the Cabal, they are halves of the Primarch because they emerged from one zygote.

This is what I thought. I'm always a bit off a bugger for rounding off ends, so I'd like to think this is one of the lost Primarchs.... although it probably is more logical if it isn't. We'll probably never know.


The Necron Codex updated the genesis of the Chaos Gods: it suggested they were one of many catastrophic by-products of the War in Heaven, millions of years before the rise of the human race. Humanity, however, has done much to feed and shape the Chaos Gods in the millenia since.

As Chief Librarian Tigurius of the Ultramarines stated the Tyranids have neither souls nor emotions; they neither attract daemons, nor nourish Chaos.

In the last Eisenhorn book (the one with the funky daemon tomb) it says that the daemon rebelled over a billion years ago against Khorne (I think it was Khorne at least, one of the gods anyway). This backs up that the gods are even older than the war in heaven (which was what, 70 million years ago?).


The mention of corruption in the Dark Angels, I presume? If so, yes. :D It makes me wonder about the Watchers though... Well, that's just it - the Alpha Legion, it seems, gave themselves to Chaos for the Emperor, so to speak. When it all went pear-shaped, they were corrupted and couldn't defeat Chaos, and so they were trapped on that path.

It seems to me that the series is making every Legion out to be only turning due to a massive misfortune (daemon sword, being tricked in a coma, going for a pragmatic reason). I want a World Eaters or Word Bearers book where they go just because it seems like a fun idea :p

starlight
28-02-2008, 17:11
But isn't that the point?

Despite having *free will*, very few humans *choose* evil. They are lead there, forced there, tricked there, but few willingly and whole heartedly *choose* to be evil while knowing and admitting it.

I would be surprised if *any* of the legions are shown (in the long run) to have *willingly and intentionally* chosen evil as their path from the beginning.

Norminator
28-02-2008, 17:17
But isn't that the point?

Despite having *free will*, very few humans *choose* evil. They are lead there, forced there, tricked there, but few willingly and whole heartedly *choose* to be evil while knowing and admitting it.

I would be surprised if *any* of the legions are shown (in the long run) to have *willingly and intentionally* chosen evil as their path from the beginning.

I see your point, but I can definitely imagine some of them having chosen it knowing what they were getting into. Angron was a pugnacious, violent git, driven to massive rage (he had rage enhancing implants) - I can easily see him willingly turning to Khorne. Same with Lorgar and his annoyance at the Emperor for not letting him worship him, and the wish for greater power.

I think a lot of humans turn to chaos if they know they'll achieve great power they wouldn't normally. Of course, this is often a lie on the daemon tricking them's part :rolleyes:

Lastie
28-02-2008, 18:05
In the last Eisenhorn book (the one with the funky daemon tomb) it says that the daemon rebelled over a billion years ago against Khorne (I think it was Khorne at least, one of the gods anyway). This backs up that the gods are even older than the war in heaven (which was what, 70 million years ago?).

Now that's interesting. I admit I haven't got around to finishing my copy of the Eisenhorn trilogy yet, otherwise I would have used that quote the other day when talking to another Warseerite about how old the Chaos Gods could be. If the various races of the 40K galaxy can find common ground in their emotions, then it stands to reason those emotions are indeed common and have been around for as long as sentient races have existed. Therefore, the Chaos Gods are a lot older than we (or Realm of Chaos) think.


It seems to me that the series is making every Legion out to be only turning due to a massive misfortune (daemon sword, being tricked in a coma, going for a pragmatic reason). I want a World Eaters or Word Bearers book where they go just because it seems like a fun idea :p

I really do not like these 'revelations' in the new HH series. So far it's been one giant long slap in the face for every Chaos Legion in the book. What was once a group of individuals who decided to give the Imperium the finger and worship impossibly ancient beings in a manner that is undeniably awesome are now mere tragic villains we should all pity for the unfortunate circumstances that led to their 'fall'.

'Pity' the Chaos Legions? That's just a disservice to what was an amazing concept. For an Imperial the Chaos Legions shouldn't be pitied, they should be hated. They (originally) willingly chose Chaos and all the benefits (and downsides) it offered, not stumble into it because their Primarch picked up a possessed sword.

So instead of Horus convincing his brother Fulgrim through what should have been an epic dialogue to join him in Chaos, Fulgrim was handed a Deus Ex Machina that rail-roaded him. As I said earlier; a slap in the face.


Despite having *free will*, very few humans *choose* evil. They are lead there, forced there, tricked there, but few willingly and whole heartedly *choose* to be evil while knowing and admitting it.

Now we come to the question: what is 'evil'? Morality is subjective, after all, and differs according to culture, circumstances, and upbringing. Falling to Chaos isn't so much as choosing evil than declaring that morality is meaningless and serves no purpose in the grand scheme of things. Good and Evil are concepts of an ordered mind, after all.


I see your point, but I can definitely imagine some of them having chosen it knowing what they were getting into. Angron was a pugnacious, violent git, driven to massive rage (he had rage enhancing implants) - I can easily see him willingly turning to Khorne. Same with Lorgar and his annoyance at the Emperor for not letting him worship him, and the wish for greater power.

Angron had a motive; his father did prevent him from saving his friends and comrades and practically murdered them before his eyes. That does make relationships a little strained to begin with.

Lorgar wanted someone to worship with love and devotion, as he essentially was the side of the Human psyche who desires such things (if you believe each Primarch was some aspect of Humanity made flesh, which most of them seem to be). When the Emperor denied this, he essentially denied Lorgar's reason to be, akin to telling a Space Marine to stop fighting and go home and read a book. Lorgar then found Chaos; an entity that practically needed him to worship them. A good relationship really, and somewhat of a happy ending for both of them (Chaos has its emotional sustenance, and Lorgar has his religion).


I think a lot of humans turn to chaos if they know they'll achieve great power they wouldn't normally. Of course, this is often a lie on the daemon tricking them's part :rolleyes:

Ah, but why lie when the truth is so much more devastating? :evilgrin:

Phunting
28-02-2008, 21:51
I really do not like these 'revelations' in the new HH series. So far it's been one giant long slap in the face for every Chaos Legion in the book. What was once a group of individuals who decided to give the Imperium the finger and worship impossibly ancient beings in a manner that is undeniably awesome are now mere tragic villains we should all pity for the unfortunate circumstances that led to their 'fall'.

'Pity' the Chaos Legions? That's just a disservice to what was an amazing concept. For an Imperial the Chaos Legions shouldn't be pitied, they should be hated. They (originally) willingly chose Chaos and all the benefits (and downsides) it offered, not stumble into it because their Primarch picked up a possessed sword.

So instead of Horus convincing his brother Fulgrim through what should have been an epic dialogue to join him in Chaos, Fulgrim was handed a Deus Ex Machina that rail-roaded him. As I said earlier; a slap in the face.I take your point, but would say of course for an Imperial the Legions are still hated. The reasons have nothing to do with the result...

Personally, I quite like it. The idea that the legions were once the best and brightest and then of their own accord decided to think no screw it all, I think I'll go with the side with the silly haircuts and pointed sticks never really rang true. And I'm always fond of a good tragedy in the true sense of the word (ie not the one used in newspaper headlines decrying every bad event as 'tragic').

Lastie
29-02-2008, 10:19
Personally, I quite like it. The idea that the legions were once the best and brightest and then of their own accord decided to think no screw it all, I think I'll go with the side with the silly haircuts and pointed sticks never really rang true.

If Chaos was just silly haircuts and pointed sticks then you would have a very good point, but as it stands why not side with forces that grant potentially unlimited power, greater release for your desires, rewards for simply being who you are (killing machines), and a chance at a decent pension scheme to boot (immortality)? Sure, it costs your soul, but it's a) yours to give anyway, and b) it's going to the Chaos powers anyway, might as well give it willingly.

Grindgodgrind
29-02-2008, 10:34
Well, my local GW started selling early. I love it, it's fantastic. I kinda guessed about Alpharius being two, if you will, but the possibility of the Cabal being the old ones? Awesome. I like how they specifically target the Alpha Legion, they being the youngest legion....'the dark angels had too much inherent corruption'.

Lies, my friends. Layers of lies.

Phunting
29-02-2008, 16:12
If Chaos was just silly haircuts and pointed sticks then you would have a very good point, but as it stands why not side with forces that grant potentially unlimited power, greater release for your desires, rewards for simply being who you are (killing machines), and a chance at a decent pension scheme to boot (immortality)? Sure, it costs your soul, but it's a) yours to give anyway, and b) it's going to the Chaos powers anyway, might as well give it willingly.True, I was being flippant. My point was only that the motivations of many who turned traitor have always felt a little weak to me. One doesn't easily throw away what one has dedicated one's life to, which is what many appeared to do.

And they didn't really understand Chaos at the time. I certianly don't think they knew it would be responsible for mutation, power and immortality and would cost their soul. It was an alternative view, and a rebellion against the Emperor not for Chaos.

Anyway, just finished, and really liked it.

Was it me or were there Squats in it?!

Norminator
29-02-2008, 16:36
Was it me or were there Squats in it?!

I noticed that too! Although I think the idea is that they more suffered from dwarfism than being proper Squats, one wonders whether Abnett was intentionally paying homage to them.

Phunting
29-02-2008, 17:18
I also liked the fact for once Abnett was able to give his readers enough credit to have a general who we don't really like but doesn't have to be incompetent, cowardly and treacherous. Actually crediting us with the intelligence to make our own minds up and not have a parade of two dimensional characatures...

different13
29-02-2008, 20:24
I noticed that too! Although I think the idea is that they more suffered from dwarfism than being proper Squats, one wonders whether Abnett was intentionally paying homage to them.

Much like the 'dwarf' in the Ravenor series, then..

Londinium
01-03-2008, 16:56
Just finished Legion three days after getting it, and I've got to say it's my favourite of all the HH books now, just edging out Fulgrim, the human characters are really well developed and the constant intrigue, backstabbing and double crossing is excellent, although you could see some of them coming.

But onto the contentious points, the book seems to me to be an entire retcon of the Alpha Legion's turn away from the Imperium, up until now it was always assumed that he turned due to a lack of a relationship with the Emperor, a very close relationship with Horus, the constant insults from Guilliman and more established Primarches and a desire to prove his methods of waging war to be better than all the other Primarches. So basically the Alphas did it because they held little loyalty to the Big E and wanted to rub Guilliman's face in it a little.

Now apparently Alpharius is perfectly loyal to the Emperor and all his dialogue in the book shows him to be hugely respectful of him to the same extent as the other Primarches, it also shows his relationship with Guilliman differently, as Alpharius said and I quote 'Guilliman despises me, I simply ignore him' and although theres another reference to Guilliman not trusting the Alpha Legion's ways of war via an Imperial character, it seems that Alpharius really doesn't care about it. Whether this is just a manly facade is a matter for debate, as the book never really delves into Alpharius' personality, we only see him interacting with Imperial Army forces where he would naturally be dismissive of Guilliman and briefly with other Alpha Legionnaries.

Secondly I don't buy the one soul/two vessels theory, the quotation provided earlier is just a case of how Eldar/Fantasy Elfs etc are always written in literature, their speech is always eloquent, poetic and figurative, this would explain describing Alpharius/Omegon as one soul in two vessels. Also throughout the book Alpharius and Omegon act quite independently of each other and indulge in conversation a number of times, if they were one person split across two bodies, you wouldn't see this. I merely see them as twins, which is a nice touch and would explain one of the missing Primarches, as the oft quoted '20 Primarches were found and all led their legions in the great crusade..' (or something along those lines) would be quite right, the Big E would be aware of Omegon, and he'd have led the Alphas alongside his twin Alpharius. Likewise it explains how the Alpha Legion maintained cohesion after Eskrador, as only one of them would have been killed leaving the other to continue leading the legion.

I'm not happy with the turn away from the Imperium though, oh yes lets contribute to the complete eradication of the human race, a race we belong to and a race we are sworn to protect to prevent Chaos from winning! instead of throwing our lot in with the loyalists and trying to prevent the vision put forth of the aftermath of the Emperor winning from happening. It just makes no sense.

It does however, conclusively put the Alpha Legion into the 'Renegades' category and not 'Chaos', but this chafes with the current fluff, if the Alphas are doing this to save the universe from Chaos, then why have they been known to use it throughout the history of 40k ? and why are there Alpha Legion Daemon Princes...an Alpha Legionaire would not even think about becoming the very thing they are fighting. Once again as with the Guilliman/Emperor relationship this is an almost complete retcon of their previous history and story, which although it showed them not to worship Chaos, showed them using it as a tool, which they simply wouldn't do under this storyline.

Anyways to cut this short, I throughly enjoyed the book and the secrets it revealed, I'm just iffy about the exact reason why the Alphas turned, as destroying humanity to save the universe from chaos, doesn't fit a loyal Imperial Space Marine's mind set or ethos in any way shape or form.

Speaking of the squats, it could well have been one, considering the Hive Fleet that eat the homeworlds wouldn't have arrived in the Heresy period and the squats would still be around. It could equally have just been a dwarfish human as those above have said, but regardless it's interesting.

Lastie
01-03-2008, 17:39
The main problem with the theory that Omegon is one of the two missing Primarchs is that there was also twenty Legions, so either the Alpha Legion is actually two Legions made one ...

Londinium
01-03-2008, 17:43
The main problem with the theory that Omegon is one of the two missing Primarchs is that there was also twenty Legions, so either the Alpha Legion is actually two Legions made one ...

Ah my mistake, remembered the quotation wrong :eyebrows: (although I'm sure it just said that all 20 primarches are found and led their legions but didn't mention 20 legions, it could easily be that one of the original 20 was unstable like the Thousand Sons and terminated. It has been a while since I read the codex mind, so you are probably right). Over the on the Black Library forums I think they've definitively proven that Alpharius/Omegon are twins and not the same soul mind, if your familar with the tarot card/zodiac theory they've developed over there (from the hints dropped by Horus Rising) then you'll see that the concept of twins fits perfectly in the Zodiac sign (Gemini) and tarot card (The Lovers, otherwise known as the Brothers) assigned to Alpharius by that theory, which was developed long before the release of Legion.

reds8n
01-03-2008, 17:58
The main problem with the theory that Omegon is one of the two missing Primarchs is that there was also twenty Legions, so either the Alpha Legion is actually two Legions made one ...

That and the whole there were statues of the missing 2 on Terra at one point too. If Omegon was a secret it strikes me as unlikely he had a statue on Terra that was removed pre heresy.

Perhaps the later actions of the Legion are either due to gradual corruption by chaos over a long time, or maybe the death of one of the 2 caused the other one to fall/swear vengence/whatever on the IMperium and chaos is merely a means to an end to do this.

I suppose, given the somewhat pragmatic nature of the legion, seeing as they failed in their attempts to save the universe they throw their lot in with chaos as at least that might offer some hope of survival.

Nutter1st
01-03-2008, 20:04
Don't know if i'm the only who noticed this but it seems there may be a hint that there are still undiscovered primarchs.

One of the cabal states - "Through a careful study and comparison of the known primarchs that has lasted for decades. It became clear to us that the oldest and youngest sons were the most significant of all."

Kandarin
01-03-2008, 22:03
That and the whole there were statues of the missing 2 on Terra at one point too. If Omegon was a secret it strikes me as unlikely he had a statue on Terra that was removed pre heresy.

Why build two statues if one statue represents them both perfectly?

Lastie
01-03-2008, 23:04
One of the cabal states - "Through a careful study and comparison of the known primarchs that has lasted for decades. It became clear to us that the oldest and youngest sons were the most significant of all."


Wouldn't be the first time the HH series has directly contradicted what has been repeatedly said in multiple productions to date (to the point where you have to wonder if someone in GW has a beef with past background writers ...). All current fluff says the twenty Primarchs were all found long before the Horus Heresy.

Damien 1427
01-03-2008, 23:19
It does however, conclusively put the Alpha Legion into the 'Renegades' category and not 'Chaos', but this chafes with the current fluff, if the Alphas are doing this to save the universe from Chaos, then why have they been known to use it throughout the history of 40k ? and why are there Alpha Legion Daemon Princes...an Alpha Legionaire would not even think about becoming the very thing they are fighting. Once again as with the Guilliman/Emperor relationship this is an almost complete retcon of their previous history and story, which although it showed them not to worship Chaos, showed them using it as a tool, which they simply wouldn't do under this storyline.

For one part, the Alpha Legion never retreated to the Eye, and it's been implied they recruit from cults to fill out numbers. Thus, you'd expect said Cults to be more inclined to use Chaos as a tool. Couple that with a "need to know" basis and there may be dozens of "cells" that don't know why they turned Traitor, only that they did.

As for the idea of them turning, they're loyal to the Emperor and his goals. They live to complete his greatest work, the eradication of Chaos. This is done by essentially destroying mankind. It sounds odd, but it does make sense.

Londinium
02-03-2008, 07:58
For one part, the Alpha Legion never retreated to the Eye, and it's been implied they recruit from cults to fill out numbers. Thus, you'd expect said Cults to be more inclined to use Chaos as a tool. Couple that with a "need to know" basis and there may be dozens of "cells" that don't know why they turned Traitor, only that they did.

As for the idea of them turning, they're loyal to the Emperor and his goals. They live to complete his greatest work, the eradication of Chaos. This is done by essentially destroying mankind. It sounds odd, but it does make sense.

I never suggested that they did retreat to the eye you don't need to, to become a Chaos legion. It's just the whole way Chaos is portrayed in the book and the way the Cabal view it as the #1 enemy that must be destroyed, and how Alpharius/Omegon come around to this view, indicate they'd never stand for it's use in any way, they executed Dimi Shiban simply for having a taint of chaos, prior to meeting the Cabal. Using precedents they would not stand for any use of Chaos in their ranks, it is after all the 'Primordial Annihilator'. They could easily fill out their ranks with renegade Guard regiments, no need to use tainted goods, goods tainted with the very great evil they were prepared to split from the Imperium and what they had spent their entire existance defending to destroy.

It makes no sense, the Astartes are gene developed and programmed to be mankind's greatest defenders and to have one goal, namely the survival and progress of humanity, even the Chaos legions can claim this in a twisted way. In what way would destroying humanity achieve this goal in any way ? besides the fact a supposedly loyal Primarch would never even counternance such a thought given his upbringing and immersion into the Imperium. If Alpharius/Omegon were still loyal, they'd have seen the vision and thrown it out the window and threw their lot in with the loyalists to try and prevent the vision of what becomes 40k, after all with another legion on their side theres nothing to say that Horus' rebellion wouldn't have been crushed more throughly and the events that lead to 40k never happen.

If they're going to retcon out the extensive use of Chaos cultists and the like from the Alpha Legion and replace them with pure renegades (after all what are Bronzi, Soneka and Rukshana, the Legion managed to subvert them very well without resorting to anything Chaosy) then I'm quite happy, I like the idea of a proper renegade legion as it adds another shade of grey (unlike the NL which seem to be getting more and more chaosy) but I'm still not sold on the conversion. Had the vision showed images such as Russ attacking Magnus and Guilliman killing Alpharius or Omegon along with the apocalyptic vision of the future, I'd have been more comfortable in Alpharius turning, as there would have been more of an effect on him and the fact that he'd see his death, would indicate to him that the Imperium was already corrupted and would turn on it's ideals in the future, necessitating the purging (ignoring the fact that it would be his turning renegade that would neccessitate his death, but then just like with Horus, visions without a grounding can be very misleading...) as it stands showing an apocalyptic view of the future to a loyalist Primarch who had shown no doubts before (unlike Horus) would 99% result in the Primarch being more determined to stop it, not going off on some random tangent to save the universe because of it's inevitability.

Mechanicus
02-03-2008, 08:13
I'd just like to jut in with a point that the colours on the bands represent story arcs according to BL, so presumably we'll get a sequel to this, along with Fulgrim. Green, though, is one-offs it seems, since FotE and DoA don't especially link together; which is a shame because that would mean we don't get a sequel to DoA (from Zahariel's POV, anyway. Perhaps from someone else's. I can hope... ;)).

Fulgrim's Gimp
02-03-2008, 08:48
Also there was a more direct reference to the missing legions by the Lucifer Blacks who mentioned that sending a complaint about the ALs tactics to Terra may result in censure from the highest levels leading to dissolution of the legion as has happenned before.

Wazzahamma
02-03-2008, 09:24
Wouldn't be the first time the HH series has directly contradicted what has been repeatedly said in multiple productions to date (to the point where you have to wonder if someone in GW has a beef with past background writers ...). All current fluff says the twenty Primarchs were all found long before the Horus Heresy.

That bit of fluff doesn't necessarily contradict at all...it simply means there could be more than 20 primarchs in total...(or 21, counting Omegon).

And though I haven't read the book yet, I would say the fact that the Alpha Legion's efforts to help Horus win in order to save mankind failed (ie: Horus lost), was a huge factor in explaining their behaviour post HH.

After all, they had everything hinged on that one victory and did some terrible things to bring it about.

Maybe in a universe that they are sure is fated for Chaos' dominance, they've developed a sort of nihilistic persona.

For an example of what a difference 10,000 years can make to a traitor legion's purpose and character, read Lord of the Night.

different13
02-03-2008, 14:02
Or rather, read Lord of the Night. You don't need a reason, other than that it's a fantastic book.

darknation
02-03-2008, 14:39
interesting. I rather like this retcon of the alpha legion.

Just thinking aloud, about why the alpha legion are a chaos force in current 40K... they don't live in the warp, they have very little contact with the other traitor legions, joined with chaos to fight chaos... am I the only one seeing shades of Malal here?

Ex-Blueshirt
02-03-2008, 14:42
I'm begining to take the Alpha Legions war cry of "For the Emperor" a little more seriously now........

fracas
02-03-2008, 23:11
did the Emperor knew of the AL's plan?

Imus
03-03-2008, 00:40
hmm maybe. There's nothing to suggest he would know. Though as stated the two primarchs was alittle strange at first. The whole concept of them being evil for the good of humanity i can see.

But by the looks of it the entire back history is being cleared and rewritten in order to tie loose ends up.

An example in fulgrim with the warning from the eldar. That originally was eldrad actually speaking to the Emperor and him ignoring him completely. That and the whole deamon possession was alittle silly.

I did like and dislike the book because it was using the theme of subefuge all the way through the book in order to try and emphaise the nature of the Alpha legion, but did become annoying at times.

Sabbad
03-03-2008, 14:31
A little quote from Zahariel's conversation with the Watchers in the Dark, from the novel Descent of Angels (page 143):


We are members of, a brotherhood, much like yourself... a cabal dedicated to thwarting the most ancient evil.

Combine that with the reference to the Dark Angels in Legion...and we finally have a greater understanding of the Watchers in the Dark and their motivations.

With regards to why the Alpha Legion nowadays has Daemon Princes, Possessed Marines and Summoned Daemons in its ranks, Wazzahamma has hit the nail on the head. The Alpha Legion worship Chaos.

The Alpha Legion might have aimed originally to support the Cabal in destroying the Primordial Annihalator. But they also aimed originally to ensure Horus won. Go figure.

Let's look at this from an Alpha Legion perspective. The Heresy is over. Horus is dead, the Big E's on the Golden Throne, the Cabal has failed. The Loyalist Legions have killed your Primarch (or not, mwahaha) and now hunt for your blood, the Emperor is too camatose to hold back the Loyalist Legions even if he wanted to. The Alpha Legion cannot return to fighting for the Emperor. They have failed in their task and can never go back. In a galaxy utterly hostile to them, there is only one power left that can save their Legion from destruction...Chaos...

PS. Lastie, you are a duplicitous sinner and I hate you. You actually had me believing that Alpharius was going to have a twitch! Though in hindsight, it was easier to predict than twin...

Chaos Undecided
03-03-2008, 15:10
I'm wondering how many people are now thinking of doing a non chaos dominated Alpha Legion army who having failed in their mission to prevent the Imperium "winning" the heresy still working to try and bring it down to save the galaxy.

Of course later books may reveal that the Alpha Legion's originally noble intentions were destroyed and they completely fell to the temptations of chaos (rather than now using Chaos as a tool like the Night Lords tend to). I'm interested to see if this is answered in the next book Battle for the Abyss the cover of which shows the Ultramarines fighting other marines (not sure if these would be Alpha Legion or Night Lords).

Lucifer216
03-03-2008, 15:11
Does anyone else notice that Eldrad's warning and the goal of the Cabel are contradictory? Anyone hazard an in-mythos reason why this should be so or should we just chalk it off to communication problems between the two authors?

Incidentally the Ultramarines are likely fighting Word Bearers, as the battle of Calth is next on the agenda.

Of course we shouldn't discount the possibility that the Alpha legion is still trying to destroy the human race, before its too late. There is no reason why they can't be engaged in a plan so utterly devious that it makes Abbadon's sledgehammer approach look laughable in comparison. Personally I would argue that the Imperium's greatest vulnerability is it's continual need for pskyers to power the astronomicon and go to the Emperor's table. Stirring up anti-psyker feeling and launching raids on black ships could potentially bring the Imperium to its knees and starve the Emperor to death far quicker than any full on push to Terra.

Conversely, The slaughter at the Cadian gate, the cordon of dead worlds and the exterminus ordered by Inquisitor Kryptman to combat the Tyranid menace, the Necron's red harvest all must be exerting a down-ward pressure on the Imperium's population. How much more does it have to lose, before there simply aren't enough psykers being born, let alone transported to Terra for "processing"?

Ex-Blueshirt
03-03-2008, 15:15
It's Ultramarines fighting Word Bearers.

Mechanicus
03-03-2008, 15:20
Does anyone else notice that Eldrad's warning and the goal of the Cabel are contradictory? Anyone hazard an in-mythos reason why this should be so or should we just chalk it off to communication problems between the two authors?Eldrad, especially an Eldrad of ten thousand years ago, isn't going to be at the level of power he is later on. He missed Fulgrim's daemon sword, for one thing. Plus, the Cabal has psykers of many races who extensively checked and corroborated their vision. Eldrad seemed to merely think that "Horus will fall to Chaos - that's bad, so let's warn the Emperor". Besides, Eldrad isn't the be all and end all of farsight, especially if the Cabal is the Old Ones.

Xisor
03-03-2008, 18:49
Interesting. I really enjoyed the book. Not better than Fulgrim, for me as I missed the Iterators and Remembrancers, but otherwise I really enjoyed it.

It suffered a bit nearer the end as it transformed from sci-fi to 'suprise revelation/witness!' etc. Still, it was a lot better than some of Dan's other works, and covered alot of themes/ideas I really enjoyed.

Tha Alpharius Omegon is a dual-Primarch

My understanding is that Omegon'd be 21, not one of the missing ones. It raises a question as to whether the Emperor knows, but still. I'd hazard that, save the Emperor and some Xenos/non-Imperials, no-one else knew that Alpharius was actually two primarchs.

I liked the twist, I thought it a bit obvious, with hindsight, but an interesting idea nonetheless. I'd have expected, however, that the Alpharius that does the talking all along would have been an 'imposter' Alpharius (i.e. to be expected) but that there were two other 'Astartes' who were identical and actually Alpharius Omegon. Still, c'est la vie, what's done is done. I liked it.

The Cabal and the Watchers

My understanding is that they are the Old Kind, the species of the Old Ones, but not bona-fide Old Ones (Old Ones, here by me, being alleged to be 'ascended' Old Kinds). That said, it isn't exactly implied that way. Safe to say: If anyone is supposed to be an Old One in the near-40k universe, then it's them.

Yup, it strikes me that the Cabal were lying to AO too. They surely weren't just trying to recruit the Alpha Legion (or manipulate). It strikes me that the DA were being aimed at too, as were the Emperor's Children, but in different ways. So the AL would be the only ones approached in this manner, but others had it other ways.

What difference did it make?

A false dichotomy. "Rebel and win: Kill the species, save the galaxy" vs "Loyal and lose: Save the species, kill the galaxy"

It strikes me that Alpharius Omegon also tricked, lied to or misled the Cabal: He surely isn't siding with them. I forget which Legionnaire/Primarch says it earlier in the book, but to paraphrase: "We do not agree with the utopian ideals. We recognise certain flaws that cannot be overcome, and so in a way we accept them and attempt to get on with things whilst recognising our flaws".

Which is to say: The Alpha Legion recognise that Chaos cannot be beaten, but that that does not mean Chaos ought to win.

The Alpha Legion are then surely trying to manipulate the galaxy so that:
1- Things go as they want it to
2- No-one wins everything
3- The AL have their hands in as many (important) pots as possible

Of Squats

The Outremar were surely squats, precursors or nods to, yes? I felt the note that an Outremar was not only a high-up person in the early Imperium but also an highly trusted advisor to the Emperor was likely one of Abnett's revelations that he asked about but that GW might've responded to "Ah, we hadn't thought of that...sure!"

Of Incompetent Superiors

Abnett acknowledged Namajitra as an extremely competent leader, but his character-portrayal still wasn't quite right. A huge step in the right direction though!

The 630th Fleet

It didn't feel coherent, to me. Someone mentioned on the BLP boards that "Abnett just doesn't understand tactics". With this in mind I'd modify and extend that statement: He did not give a convincing account of the expedition fleet. He described it, sure enough, but it didn't feel intact, real or viable. It didn't...work.

That isn't a strick point about his work though, as it's purely for this instance (but I would note parallels elsewhere, Eisenhorn's heavily organised bureacratic Inquisition similarly failed, for me). Had he mentioned the greater works of Iterators, Remembrancers and Colonists, perhaps? Maybe if the Commander of the Fleet had been developed a bit or described slightly more? Other fleets nearby? A Gothic-esque depiction of the fleet disposition? An actual description of the starships involved?

I don't know, but altogether, it felt like I had to do alot of the work myself, and so the 'background' of the book itself didn't feel very...complete. But still, I thouroughly enjoyed the book. It was highly readable and kept a decent pace.

Now, if only we could figure out a way to combine Matt Farrer's plausible & excellent 'scene setting' skills (again, I was overwhelmed by the first chapter of Legacy today, just like the opening of Crossfire) and good head for an intrigue/investigation driven story with Dan Abnett's...prolificness. Abnett's stories keep me reading faster than Farrer's, but Farrer's are still better. DO A STORY TOGETHER, YOU TWO! :p

How the Alpha Legion became the AL we see in 40k today

The same way the Night Lords did, probably. That is, without spoiling Lord of the Night, fear was always a tool for the Night Lords, not something to be...indulged in. Had they kept this discipline over the millenia, they'd still be an outright and terrifying renegade Legion.

This likely applies similarly to the Alphas as it does to the Iron Warriors. None of the three truly succumb to Chaos, as a legion but none of the three really reject Chaos either.

The Alpha Legion surely come to recognise Chaos as a tool, an unavoidable truth of the galaxy, but they won't indulge it. At least they'll try not to. They'll also recognise some will fall and indulge it, but the struggle is in every direction. The important facet is trying.

The Night Lords struggle against their own innate susceptability to becoming violent, horrific, fear-mongering terrorists. The Iron Warriors are lumped in with Chaos and are but bedfellows to it. The Alpha Legions...they're...associates. They help one another...but it's the long game for both of them.

The Meaning of the Book

It strikes me that the point is that Alpharius Omegon's choice was a false dichotomy. This could be Abnett's intent: That when presented with two choices
- One we can never be sure of (Horus wins, humanity dies, everyone else lives happily ever after...)
- Another that seems to obviously have been picked (Stay loyal, humanity survives, everyone else dies...just ten or twenty thousand years later...not that long really)

To me, AO surely rejects both of these and attempts a third option. Indeed, that might've been the point all along. Or it might not. It might damn everyone...

Thus the third choice:
- The middle path (Stay loyal to yourself, help humanity, help the cabal but ultimately be emotionlessly/ruthlessly pragmatic for the Alpha Legion's own aims)

BrainFireBob
03-03-2008, 19:36
The problem with one of the twins surviving, is that it undermines Alpharius' battle doctrines- the one Legion that didn't need its Primarch, and it's revealed it didn't need its Primarch because it had a spare? That slays pathos.

Fulgrim's Gimp
03-03-2008, 20:55
I thought it was interesting how the AL recruited operatives from other forces nominally on their side. has the Alpha Legion infiltrated other Chaos Legions (similar to how they destroyed a Loyalist Chapter in the Chaos codex.) Could this mean an Alpha Legion operative lowered the shields on the Vengeful Spirit for the Emperor to attack ?

Killgore
03-03-2008, 21:21
I thought it was interesting how the AL recruited operatives from other forces nominally on their side. has the Alpha Legion infiltrated other Chaos Legions (similar to how they destroyed a Loyalist Chapter in the Chaos codex.) Could this mean an Alpha Legion operative lowered the shields on the Vengeful Spirit for the Emperor to attack ?


now this i like!

well done sir for thinking of it

Supremearchmarshal
03-03-2008, 22:35
Conversely, The slaughter at the Cadian gate, the cordon of dead worlds and the exterminus ordered by Inquisitor Kryptman to combat the Tyranid menace, the Necron's red harvest all must be exerting a down-ward pressure on the Imperium's population. How much more does it have to lose, before there simply aren't enough psykers being born, let alone transported to Terra for "processing"?

An interesting observation, but remember that psykers are becoming more and more common.


I thought it was interesting how the AL recruited operatives from other forces nominally on their side. has the Alpha Legion infiltrated other Chaos Legions (similar to how they destroyed a Loyalist Chapter in the Chaos codex.) Could this mean an Alpha Legion operative lowered the shields on the Vengeful Spirit for the Emperor to attack ?

Wasn't it Horus himself who ordered the shields to be lowered?

Londinium
03-03-2008, 23:07
An interesting observation, but remember that psykers are becoming more and more common.



Wasn't it Horus himself who ordered the shields to be lowered?

Yeah it's always been that way, Horus did it because he was running out of time with the DA and SW on their way (and in modern fluff Ultras too), so he made one last gamble of goading the Emperor into a confrontation in the hope he could beat the Emperor and end the war then and there.

GreenDracoBob
03-03-2008, 23:13
The problem with one of the twins surviving, is that it undermines Alpharius' battle doctrines- the one Legion that didn't need its Primarch, and it's revealed it didn't need its Primarch because it had a spare? That slays pathos.

It does and it doesn't. If no one realizes that there are two primarchs leading the legion, and one happens to die, than everyone would think there is no primarch left. Therefore, the legion operates as if its primarch were dead, which is supposedly just as effective. Then an "Astartes" steps up to take control, only it is the actual primarch.

Plus, the Alpha Legion operates with many seemingly independent cells, and so rarely operate with a rigid chain of command (or do they?).

The Phazer
03-03-2008, 23:28
Another possibility that occoured to me is that the Cabal are being played for fools by Tzeentch. Tzeentch plays a very long game, and what longer than to use a collection of beings who believe they fight an immortal battle against Chaos to sway another legion to Horus' side? That would handily explain why the legion falls to Chaos much more rapidly after the Heresy too.

It's by no means a given, but it's an interesting possibility.

Good book. Leaves a lot of questions. I rather like the notion of Alpharius being twins, and that they have one soul - there is a lot of fluff over the years to suggest the Primarch's souls/warp presences whathaveyou are specially engineered by the Emperor to some length, and I think the possibility of them being almost one being in two bodies is entirely plausible given that.

I also think that means neither is one of the missing two Primarchs. They are likely seperated into two beings within their stasis chamber in the warp, and hence born that way, rather than being in two seperate chambers as they would if seperate Primarchs.

Nice to see a book in this series laying down some newer fluff though about collections of other races and interesting individuals. Very Rogue Trader, and welcome too.

Phazer

The Phazer
03-03-2008, 23:35
Oh, and I would say that the thing that it's hinted John saw when he met the Emperor is that which has been mentioned as a possible plot point by Dan Abnett on the BL forums (or at least reported there, apologies for my poor recolection) - that the Emperor isn't the virile model of humanity he appears even in the 30th Millenium - he's a walking corpse even then, physically frail being thousands of years old. He simply shields this with his psychic powers to appear more inspiring.

I suspect given his thoughts on this were aired before the book was finished that Dan is maybe throwing a bone to people who were paying attention to the rumour mill, but just leaving it open enough so people can't say it's a twist everyone knew was coming... :-)

Phazer

Supremearchmarshal
04-03-2008, 09:54
Yeah it's always been that way, Horus did it because he was running out of time with the DA and SW on their way (and in modern fluff Ultras too), so he made one last gamble of goading the Emperor into a confrontation in the hope he could beat the Emperor and end the war then and there.

The Ultras? Isn't that a bit strange since they need 4+ months to get to Terra?

Gdolkin
04-03-2008, 13:36
There are many interesting questions and lines of speculation raised by the book (and by the discussion in this thread), and some very bold 'retcons' and revelations made.. Would we accept these kind of changes to established Alpha Legion/setting background if they were coming from, say, Ben Counter or James Swallow (I'm not even gonna suggest Goto here..) rather than Abnett? What we like or accept is of course ultimately irrelevant, but Abnett certainly had some cheek/vision/talent to be bringing in a twin for Alpharius, 30k-era Old Ones with Human agents, and this whole 'Victory is ultimately Defeat' concept about the Heresy as an explanation for the Alpha Legion's actions.. There's a lot I'd like to ponder upon here about the latter, such as:
-Surely the Emperor's 'highest ideals' and 'ultimate objective' includes the survival and psychic development of humanity to a point where it can resist/expunge itself of Chaos, rather than 'starving' Chaos by the extinction of humanity after having initially fostered it by allowing mass war, genocide, depravity etc..? It rather seems as though Alpharius Omegon appreciates the 'Horus must win so that the boil of Chaos may be lanced earlier and not allowed to fester, so that the Galaxy may be saved' part, but not the 'humanity will be wiped out by Horus, that is how Chaos shall be denied' part. Does that make sense? I can see Alpharius joining the rebels because he sees that it will ultimately save Humanity, but doing it because he sees it will ultimately save the rest of the Galaxy at the expense of Humanity is a bit of a stretch of reasoning, no? His decision surely expresses more loyalty to the Galaxy and sentient life in general than to the Emperor and Humanity.. It's a powerful and intriguing concept, that humanity could become the ultimate weapon against Chaos by, so to speak, embracing it and over-stimulating, over-accelerating it to the point where Chaotic Humanity tears itself apart and disappears, taking Chaos with it as it has become too enmeshed with and reliant on humanity.. Is that how anyone else understands it? It makes me think of deliberately infecting a spot so it will build to a point you can pop it, or deliberately allowing gangrene so a doctor will cut off your leg for you, because you think your leg is possessed by daemons.. Also of how 'Jack' in Fight Club rids himself of Tyler by shooting himself in the head.. Also of killers who consider themselves to be releasing their victims from suffering.. It's dark, nihilistic and scary, and it's well cool, but it doesn't make much sense as a motivation for a Primarch of the Astartes who is supposedly utterly loyal to the Emperor and his ideals.. as I say, it's a brilliant idea taken just a step too far. Right, must move on from this one, time's short..
-I believe some have criticised the choice of the name 'Omegon', calling it unimaginitive. I take the point, it is a little obvious, but I believe that is why it's the best possible choice of name for the twin of Alpharius: Alpha and Omega, see? If we've been happy all this time with the Primarch of the Alpha Legion being called Alpharius (and indeed with that of the Iron Hands being called Ferrus Manus, that of the Blood Angels being called Sanguinius..), what better name for his twin could there be? Betatron? Alpharion? Alphariax? Suirahpla? Legionicus? Legionarius? Nigel? No thanks..

Tyco
04-03-2008, 16:59
Alpharius and Omegon become enemies, one of them succombs to chaos while the other founds the Legion of the Damned in repent for its mistakes.

Legion of the Damned = Alpha Legion Loyalists

Ha!

Londinium
04-03-2008, 18:46
The Ultras? Isn't that a bit strange since they need 4+ months to get to Terra?

It was retconned in the newer fluff, as soon as they dispatch the Word Bearers at Calth, they scoot along to Terra, possibly killing Alpharius (or is it Omegon ?) along the way at Eskrador (I personally think this happened in the Scouring but others have different ideas) before arriving at Terra shortly after the siege ends but probably also after the DA and SW.

The older fluff had them not knowing about the Heresy until it was basically over, and not arriving on Terra until substanially after the Siege, thus making Dorn call Guilliman a coward for not defending Terra during their little spat over the Codex.


Alpharius and Omegon become enemies, one of them succombs to chaos while the other founds the Legion of the Damned in repent for its mistakes.

Legion of the Damned = Alpha Legion Loyalists

Ha!

Shame the Legion of the Damned are the Fire Hawks, why are people still formulating theories for who they are, when it was all but confirmed years ago.

Gdolkin
06-03-2008, 00:05
Also, how do the Alpha Legion secure the loyalty of Bronzi, Soneka and Rukhsana? In all 3 cases, the narrative shifts from said characters fearing and loathing the Legion, being in a position of being their victims, to their being the Legion's sworn vassals.. What did they tell them?
How did John Grammaticus know Soneka was an Alpha agent he could 'surrender' himself to? I would also ask what Grammaticus saw behind the Emperor's mask when he met him, but the Phazer has given a great theory for that..
About Grammaticus and Rukshana: Had they not met before the briefing at which they get flirty and subsequently fall in rather hasty 'love'? She's supposed to be his commanding Uxor, 'running' him as an agent ('Konig Heniker'), but it's written as though it's 'love at first sight'.. meh, guess I'm over-thinking what may be a well-written and ideas-packed novel by the company's best author, as far as it goes, but is still pretty much trash as far as proper literature goes.. Rule of Cool, style over substance, but damn Abnett sure has style.
How did Soneka get from the place on the planet where he was granted the 'Acuity' to Bronzi's cell on Namitjaara's ship in orbit in time before the Legion destroyed the fleet?
Why didn't the Emperor farsee the same 'Victory over Horus is eventual defeat, better to let Chaos flourish then burn itself out, than slowly undermine everything and eventually triumph' idea as the Cabal? Mind you, He apparently didn't farsee the Heresy in the first place, being absorbed with Webway tomfoolery, sooo..
And just what did the Alpha's know of Chaos before meeting Grammaticus and the Cabal? They knew enough to execute Dimi Shiban for being 'probably' tainted by the bone shards of a Chaos-worshipping Nurthene lodged in his shrapnel wounds, yet at the same time, prior to meeting the Cabal/getting the 'Acuity', seem to think of Chaos as just another xenos, casual threat, much like most other Imperials in 30k who know of it at all, and need some thorough convincing by the Cabal to take the impending cataclysm seriously.. Hmm. Who needs logic or consistency when: 'Alpharius has a twin!','Old Ones are badass!', 'The Alpha Legion turned traitor out of uber-loyalty to the Emperor that was so uber it superceded the survival of Him and Humanity!'..
Yep, good read. Best HH novel since Abnett's last. I read them stoned.
As if they'd bloody brand Hydra's on agent's hips! How secret is that?

Hrogoff the Destructor
06-03-2008, 00:31
Why didn't the Emperor farsee the same 'Victory over Horus is eventual defeat, better to let Chaos flourish then burn itself out, than slowly undermine everything and eventually triumph' idea as the Cabal? Mind you, He apparently didn't farsee the Heresy in the first place, being absorbed with Webway tomfoolery, sooo..

The emperor may be a good psyker, but he's a terrible seer.

TheLionReturns
06-03-2008, 01:02
Just finished Legion and thoroughly enjoyed it, best of the series so far. I like the way you are never really sure who Alpharius is, even at the end there is no telling him and Omegon apart. Also it seemed the first HH book without a rushed ending, definitely a plus for me.

I have read criticism of the twins thing and the fact they are hinted at being loyal traitors. To be honest that doesn't bother me in the slightest. The twins aspect is a nice variation apart from other primarchs and it does open the door for the evil twin. Whilst this may seem a bit cheesy the idea of an Alpha Legion in the 41st millenium split into a loyalist and a chaos faction, but both hunted by the Imperium would add flavor, as well as good scope for gamers. Regarding the two bodies one soul quote, this is fine for me. I don't think it means they are one consciousness, but simply have a single reflection/shadow in the warp. Whilst all of us are capable of both good and evil, the idea of a battle for the soul of Alpharius played out in the Materium by two physical bodies rather than an internal conflict seems interesting.

I also think we are jumping the gun thinking they joined Horus in order to see him win and thus defeat chaos in the long term. This was the vision that was revealed but that does not mean that the Alpha Legion followed it. Alpharius is portrayed throughout the book as being largely disdainful of other peoples advice and opinions. He listens more than many other primarchs but is rarely influenced. He does his own thing. I think the future and the nature of the Alpha Legion is far from explained. We know he sided with Horus at Istavaan but his motives remain unclear, as do those of his future actions. There are more questions over them now than before this book was released, and that should be the key task when writing a book on this legion.

It was extremely refreshing to see the story told largely from a human (as opposed to superhuman) perspective. It was easier to relate to the characters, and you were left to make your own mind up about them, not have everything spelled out simply for you. Also I liked the focus on intrigue in the book rather than simply Space Marines killing things. I have read the Space Marines killing things type book on too many occasions. This book seemed more about politics and command of an operation, and refreshing for it.

As far as any criticism goes, I would like to have seen more about how the Alpha Legion human operatives were indoctrinated. Some seemed in awe of the Alpha Legion, whilst others seem to have been caught up by events and ended up being trapped in service. However, the transition to this state was a bit unclear at times and would have been a good addition.

I was also left somewhat unsatisfied by the Cabal. I read them as not being Old Ones but made up of members of the older races of the universe created by the Old Ones. I saw them as trying to enact the Old Ones plans, or at least their version of it. The hints that they have become more aggressive and less tolerant suggests a corruption of this mission to me, one that does not necessarily reflect the original intentions of the Old Ones anymore. Whilst I would have disliked too much being revealed about them, there just wasn't enough description for me. There was an eldar dude and some guy in a mirror who spoke to John Grammaticus (stupid name by the way far worse than Omegon, I'm waiting for Sporticus next), but then a collection of random xenos and a big ship. That was not enough for me. I would have liked to see more dialogue between Cabal members and perhaps some internal disagreement. Also a bit more revealed about how they operate would be nice. There needs to be an air of mystery around them, but one around a solid core. The core was too insubstantial for me.

One of the biggest mysteries of the 40K universe remains unresolved for me though. Why aren't the Alpha Legion servants of Tzeentch. Their modus operandi fits Tzeentch even better than the Thousand Sons. Perhaps the Cabal has been sidetracked and influenced by Tzeentch, and the Alpha Legion are one of Tzeentch's unwitting pawns.

Still, whilst I have liked all of the HH books so far I feel this is the best despite some criticisms and look forward to the next installment.

Gdolkin
06-03-2008, 01:15
I guess He is. So, how come the Cabal of almost-certainly-latter-day-Old Ones didn't try and get Him to take a peek at the Acuity, be SHOWN the future rather than farsee it for Himself, and plan accordingly (whatever His reaction may have been), rather than work their way through His Legions until finally succeeding in 'recruiting' their last best hope, the Alphas?
Eldrad tried to give Fulgrim a warning of the Heresy for the Emperor, but not the 'Horus must win, it's for the best' version that the Cabal offer Alpharius Omegon. Of course, there's no reason to suppose Eldrad worked with, agreed with or even knew about the Cabal, but even so, if Eldrad had the vision and sense of urgency to attempt to warn the Emperor (via Fulgrim, who was already possessed by a daemon of She Who Thirsts, and Eldrad didn't see it..) of what he could farsee, why wouldn't the presumably superior-farseers of the Cabal have done so? If the Alphas were candidates for potentially having the long-sightedness, pragmaticism and willingness to use/allow brutal violence in pursuit of a utopian goal (ref. the Alphas critique of utopian goals) to appreciate the need for humanity's sacrifice in order to negate Chaos, why not the Emperor?
Edit: And what TheLionReturns said, good points sir, the Cabal may well be not quite yer actual Old Ones and Alpharius Omegon may not have done exactly what they told them to, indeed.

CasperTheGhost
06-03-2008, 09:47
Yeah it's always been that way, Horus did it because he was running out of time with the DA and SW on their way (and in modern fluff Ultras too), so he made one last gamble of goading the Emperor into a confrontation in the hope he could beat the Emperor and end the war then and there.


Ah there lies the problem. The word always. So of course now it will be the AL who lower the shield. Or Maybe Jesus. Who knows with GW. DunDUnDUN!!!!!

I didn't like the idea of twins tbh as it undermines the idea of superhuman beings of death IMO. Oh look we have 20 Primarchs but 2 are missing. Sod it don't name a new legion lets just recreate one.

I personally think they went for the lazy option

CasperTheFriendlyGhost
Heretic to Lastie

RobC
06-03-2008, 11:27
I didn't like the idea of twins tbh as it undermines the idea of superhuman beings of death IMO.How so? How does them being twins make them any less superhuman or less capable of dealing death?


Oh look we have 20 Primarchs but 2 are missing. Sod it don't name a new legion lets just recreate one.The book doesn't recrate the Alpha Legion - it merely fills in some of the gaps. The background on the Alpha Legion was always vague and lacking in solid information, which suited their character. And what bigger a surprise than to discover that Alpharius had a twin whose existence he kept secret?

Remember: Omegon is not one of the two missing primarchs. He counts as half of Primarch XX, if that's any help.

Captain Stern
08-03-2008, 08:44
Wasn't as good as Horus Rising. Much, much better than the other ones though (but that's not hard).

I wasn't happy at all how Alpharius and Namatjira seemed to be of equal rank (Alpharius bowed in front of him at one point:wtf::wtf:). What the hell was all that about? I still haven't come to terms with this Malcador invention, and this is even harder to swallow. Unforgivable.

I was saddened to see Abnett adhering to the index astartes background. As if it wasn't bad enough that Rogal Dorn's been turned into an arrogant, pompous ass by the other authors, now Abnett seem's to feel the need to extend that fine tradition to Rouboute Guilliman. Great. I was even more dissapointed to discover that he'd also acknowledged Descent of Angels. Does this mean we'll be seeing this 'Wolf and the Khan' crap instead of the 'Lion and the Wolf' in later novels? Why change a long established and well loved part of the background? Idiots.

Another thing - Abnett seemed determined to drive home the fact that Dinas Chayne was a major badass. That's fine, but was it really necessary to have him score a hit (almost two hits) on a primarch in order to drive this point home to us? Isn't Abnett shooting himself in the foot when on the one hand he tells us about how godlike the primarchs are, then on the other comes up with scenes like this where this godlikeness is well and truly contradicted? I thought he was a better writer than that.

Also sad to see yet another arrogant, disdainful Eldar. Bill King's still the only one to ever present them as anything other than two dimensional charicatures. Oh, and Mon' Keigh? MON' KEIGH (Are you kidding me?)? I didn't know that was still around.

Norminator
08-03-2008, 09:04
I was saddened to see Abnett adhering to the index astartes background. As if it wasn't bad enough that Rogal Dorn's been turned into an arrogant, pompous ass by the other authors, now Abnett seem's to feel the need to extend that fine tradition to Rouboute Guilliman. Great.

A pompous ass in Alpharius' opinion. Until we have a Ultramarine-centric book (hopefully Battle for the Abyss will feature Guilliman), it's by no means set in stone.

Captain Stern
08-03-2008, 09:17
A pompous ass in Alpharius' opinion. Until we have a Ultramarine-centric book (hopefully Battle for the Abyss will feature Guilliman), it's by no means set in stone.

Not really. There's no reason why Alpharius, a serious, likeable character with no serious character flaws (much like Horus in Rising), might get the wrong impression. It's more to do with the author. For example, Abnett clearly likes Rogal Dorn and so he comes off favourably in his books whenever he's featured. Not so in Macneil's and Counter's. Yet another side effect of this stupid multi authorship of the series.

Wazzahamma
08-03-2008, 10:51
I didn't think Guilliman came across in a bad light. The majority of mentions of him (to do with Namatjira) were all positive. Even when Alpharius says that Guilliman despises him, he does not bother to give any damning opinion of Guilliman other than that he ignores him. Which would Alpharius' approach to anyone who disapproved of his actions. Perhaps even the Emperor.

As for bowing before other officers, Horus did the same in HR. It's basically a political manipulation and a public conceit. There is no way that Alpharius thinks for a second that Namatjira is his equal.

But you're right that Abnett plays down the primarch's god-like-charisma and presence in this book. Which I believe to be done with a conscious effort on Alpharius/Omegon's part. If they constantly beamed this unmistakable super aura about the place in the same manner as their brothers, there is no way they could ever blend in with their legion.

Similarly, Chayne landing a blow only goes to show how demi-god-like Alpharius is. He barely even registers it.

CaptainSenioris
08-03-2008, 11:55
You'd have thought John would've noticed a tattoo...:eek: it wasn't always on the thighs ;)
Unless of course she insisted on switching the lights off :D

I loved the book and the whole twin thing, even the alpha-omega thing (essentially they are two sides of the same coin, not in an evil twin way).

Whenever I get my IF's finished I'll maybe try a small loyalist AL force.

TheLionReturns
08-03-2008, 12:22
I wasn't happy at all how Alpharius and Namatjira seemed to be of equal rank (Alpharius bowed in front of him at one point:wtf::wtf:). What the hell was all that about? I still haven't come to terms with this Malcador invention, and this is even harder to swallow. Unforgivable.


I never got the impression that Alpharius was of equal rank to Namatjira. I saw the bowing as polite formality. A form of diplomacy to keep Namatjira manageable. In fact I felt it was fitting for the Alpha Legion primarch to be able to put on such a display whilst personally disliking the guy. Certainly his leaving Namatjira out of the loop in everything he does and wiping his imperial army fleet out at the end suggests how little he valued him.

As for some other points I think Chayne was made too tough in the landing the blow on Alpharius. However, I did like the Alpharius' response to it, it kind of reinforced his superhuman status.

I got the impression that Rukshana got the tatoo after being held by the Alpha Legion rather than being an agent all the time. Of course being an agent all the time does put an interesting twist on things. Something I may consider more if I get round to rereading it.

As for Guillman I don't think he came out of the book that badly. I've always felt he is presented as being a bit Obsessive/Compulsive, in the form of needing nice even numbers and clear precise structures and patterns. You can argue Alpharius is obsessive in his need for total knowledge, but I think his more flexible approach grates with Guillmans sense of order. I think Alpharius can understand the value of order at times but Guillman is blind to the value of the level of flexibility that Alpharius embraces. I would imagine Guillman's approach is one deeply respected by Imperial commanders who have to organise massive troops formations. However, perhaps an approach less respected by the Primarchs who are more free spirits whose intellect isn't stretched by their responsibility of organising their legion (with the exception of Horus of course who had a much bigger workload). I think Legion presented the relationship in this way so it didn't bother me much at all.

One thing I will say is that I hope that future books bring out multiple dimensions of the primarchs. Legion can be excused because Alpharius is secretive and you aren't meant to know much about him. The primarchs in the other books have lacked a bit of depth IMO and I hope Battle of the Abyss doesn't follow this pattern.

Captain Stern
08-03-2008, 16:43
I didn't think Guilliman came across in a bad light. The majority of mentions of him (to do with Namatjira) were all positive. Even when Alpharius says that Guilliman despises him, he does not bother to give any damning opinion of Guilliman other than that he ignores him. Which would Alpharius' approach to anyone who disapproved of his actions. Perhaps even the Emperor.


Like you say: he's mentioned only barely by Alpharius, and in a bad light, then he's mentioned a little more by the villain of the story, and this time in a good light. As if this isn't bad enough for Guilleman, we find out that the sequel is written by Ben Counter. This isn't cause for concern? Are you kidding me?


As for bowing before other officers, Horus did the same in HR. It's basically a political manipulation and a public conceit. There is no way that Alpharius thinks for a second that Namatjira is his equal.


When did he do this exactly? The only time I can remember Horus kneeling is when he was trying to comfort Loken - not the same thing at all. It doesn't matter whatsoever what Alpharius thought. Bowing down before someone to pay homage is VERY significant in any age. It's always been The Emperor then the Primarchs and then everyone else under them. Has this changed?

CasperTheGhost
08-03-2008, 16:53
When did he do this exactly? The only time I can remember Horus kneeling is when he was trying to comfort Loken - not the same thing at all. It doesn't matter whatsoever what Alpharius thought. Bowing down before someone to pay homage is VERY significant in any age. It's always been The Emperor then the Primarchs and then everyone else under them. Has this changed?

When the Luna Wolves were in orbit around Murder. Horus ask a commander if he would kneel. The commander, who didnt know Horus was coming, says he doesn't remember how. Then Horus goes "let me show you" and then kneels to the commander

CasperTheFriendlyGhost
Lord of the =[L]=

Captain Stern
08-03-2008, 16:56
When the Luna Wolves were in orbit around Murder. Horus ask a commander if he would kneel. The commander, who didnt know Horus was coming, says he doesn't remember how. Then Horus goes "let me show you" and then kneels to the commander

CasperTheFriendlyGhost
Lord of the =[L]=


Yeh, so nothing like what Alpharius did.

Ex-Blueshirt
08-03-2008, 17:00
How is that nothing like what Alpharius did?

Captain Stern
08-03-2008, 17:18
How is that nothing like what Alpharius did?

Read pages 272-3 of Horus Rising and hopefully you'll see. Couldn't be any more different.

UPDATE

If I really do have to spell it out:

The officer in question was so shocked to see Horus come aboard that he was frozen in place with fear. He was so scared that he couldn 't remember how to kneel when this was requested of him. Therefore Horus, charismatic bastard he is, kneeled himself as a deliberately ironic gesture.

So, like I said, nothing like what Alpharius did.

Captain Stern
08-03-2008, 17:31
Hello?

A PRIMARCH kneels before a regular human in a blacklibrary publication and no one has anything to say but me?

I don't understand.

captain ceaser
08-03-2008, 17:31
maybe the whole evil twin think is supposed to be alpharius scitzophrenic side(spelling-doh!) not his literal twin, just the two sides of his personallity clashing or something like that.

Ex-Blueshirt
08-03-2008, 17:33
Hello?

A PRIMARCH kneels before a regular human in a blacklibrary publication and no one has anything to say.

I don't understand.

Namatjira was a Lord Commander.
Alpharius was on his turf.
He was polite.
Get over it.

Captain Stern
08-03-2008, 17:37
Namatjira was a Lord Commander.
Alpharius was on his turf.
He was polite.
Get over it.

Before this book, established background suggests that such insolence against a primarch would have been grounds for execution at the least.

EDIT

Namatjira talks about his possible sponsorship by Alpharius to a 'high council' suggesting that even the rank of Lord Commander isn't so high and mighty. And still Alpharius must cow tow...

Ex-Blueshirt
08-03-2008, 17:41
Insolence? Alpharius chose to bow.

Captain Stern
08-03-2008, 17:45
insolence being anything but subserviance by those who are not the Emperor or the Primarchs. Alpharius bowed before a Lord commander - a regular human - like it was nothing out of the ordinary. This is without precedent in the 40k background.

starlight
08-03-2008, 17:45
Although I tend to avoid the BL books, I always assumed that attitude was overblown Imperial propaganda for the kiddies.

*OMGZOORS MY Primark would kick yourz Primarks butt...* and so on.

The Imperium under the Emperor and the early days of the Primarchs, was quite a bit different than the 41st Millenium. Although not all had the same leadership styles, I can't see any of the Primarchs executing human commanders for disagreements, or simply human fraility, outside of ongoing battlefield conditions.

Leadership by example and all that...

Ex-Blueshirt
08-03-2008, 18:01
Namatjira: Bow for me Alpharius for I am an arrogant archetype. Mwhahaha for mine is an evil laugh.

Alpharius: I will not bow fool for I am mighty, curse your insolence, now die. (Shoots Namatjira.)

Doesn't seem likely does it?

Lastie
08-03-2008, 18:05
Therefore Horus, charismatic bastard he is, kneeled himself as a deliberately ironic gesture.

Interesting interpretation; I got the impression Horus was merely being, well a charismatic magnificent bastard. In the sense that he knew the act would be talked about for months to come, record in legend by the Remembrancers, and solidify his reputation as the GREAT AWESOME ONE. In other words; one small dent to his ego, one giant boost to his reputation.

Although I agree otherwise; Primarchs shouldn't bow to anyone. We are talking about individuals who could knock moons out of orbit with their egos.

Londinium
08-03-2008, 18:23
Stern your missing the point, Alpharius does not follow Imperial examples, he is the odd one out, the Cabal itself says as much saying that being the last found he hasn't had chance to become indoctrinated into the Imperium's ways and prejudices and thats why they approached him rather than other Primarches.

Combine this with the modus operandi of the Alpha Legion and how they seem to use normal guard and humans much more than the other legions and you can easily see why he'd make such a false show of modesty to bring Namatjira on side and also increase his reputation throughout the regiments on display that day.

Regardless if we want to be correct, it wasn't even Alpharius bowing to Namatjira.

Captain Stern
08-03-2008, 18:26
That reminds me: I should have mentioned how I found Alpharius Omegon to be completely without ego. Very fitting in more ways than one.

Captain Stern
08-03-2008, 18:31
Stern your missing the point, Alpharius does not follow Imperial examples, he is the odd one out, the Cabal itself says as much saying that being the last found he hasn't had chance to become indoctrinated into the Imperium's ways and prejudices and thats why they approached him rather than other Primarches.

Combine this with the modus operandi of the Alpha Legion and how they seem to use normal guard and humans much more than the other legions and you can easily see why he'd make such a false show of modesty to bring Namatjira on side and also increase his reputation throughout the regiments on display that day.

No you're missing the point. He, a primarch, knelt before the lord commander in a vast public gathering and no one regarded this as being abnormal. Namatjira also spoke his mind to a primarch, even resorted to threats, and didn't think this especially out of place. This betrays a serious change of station for the primarchs in the latest background.

Dan Abnett should be flogged.

Shaper Shakra
08-03-2008, 19:05
It probably wasn't the "real" Alpharius. Even if it was, like you said Alpharius' ego is next to nonexistant, and he's definitly not the most imposing of the primarchs (not to say he's a pushover). He probably foresaw the benefits of such a gesture, and the other guardsmen probably just thought it was courtesy (what do they have to judge his behavior against, it's not like any of them have ever seen another primarch).

Captain Stern
08-03-2008, 19:34
It probably wasn't the "real" Alpharius. Even if it was, like you said Alpharius' ego is next to nonexistant, and he's definitly not the most imposing of the primarchs (not to say he's a pushover). He probably foresaw the benefits of such a gesture, and the other guardsmen probably just thought it was courtesy (what do they have to judge his behavior against, it's not like any of them have ever seen another primarch).


Whether it was the real Alpharius or not isn't the point. The fact is it was seen that the primarch of the Alpha Legion knelt before a lord commander of the Imperial Army.
You talk about the benefits of Alpharius' gesture of kneeling before Namatjira? There were no benefits. Quite the contrary. If Namatjira had become Alpharius' servant as soon as the primarch had come on to the scene (how it should have been) then Alpharius wouldn't have had to expend so much effort on secrecy and the vast majority of the expedition would have made it off safely off Nurthene when disaster struck. Do you recall how Alpharius ASKED Namatjira for evacuation and the Lord Commander ignored him.


EDIT


and the other guardsmen probably just thought it was courtesy (what do they have to judge his behavior against, it's not like any of them have ever seen another primarch)

I'm not in the millitary and I recognise the significance of one man kneeling before another. Are you suggesting men in the 41st millenium can't do the same?

Ex-Blueshirt
08-03-2008, 19:41
Imagine if the big leader man of the navy turned up and started making demands of the big leader man of the air force. He wouldn't get very far would he?

Granted the big leader of the navy probably couldn't crush the big leader man of the air force with his thumb. But Still.....

Your saying Alpharius gained nothing? He avoided the enmity of a Lord Commander. And even the Astartes are nothing without the billion or so Imperial Army behind them

Captain Stern
08-03-2008, 20:02
Imagine if the big leader man of the navy turned up and started making demands of the big leader man of the air force. He wouldn't get very far would he?

Granted the big leader of the navy probably couldn't crush the big leader man of the air force with his thumb. But Still.....

Your saying Alpharius gained nothing? He avoided the enmity of a Lord Commander. And even the Astartes are nothing without the billion or so Imperial Army behind them

You don't seem to get it. The Imperium is a dictatorship. The Primarchs are considered sons of the Emperor (the dictator) and they answer to no one but the Emperor. So far in the background the Emperor has been supreme (as is still the case) and the primarchs have answered to no one but the Emperor (though this has come into question somewhat by the introduction of Malcador the Sigilite). This book has confused things somewhat. Before this you could have named any one of the lord commanders and any one of the primarchs could have willed his execution at his whim. That's how powerful they were i.e. they were 2nd to the Emperor in authority. Now Dan Abnett has to go and complicate something that was fine as it was.

Ex-Blueshirt
08-03-2008, 20:05
A Dictatorship? No it's a beaurocracy.

Lastie
08-03-2008, 20:09
Now Dan Abnett has to go and complicate something that was fine as it was.

So what else is new? :p

Captain Stern
08-03-2008, 20:15
So what else is new? :p

What I can't help but think is that maybe he didn't mean to. He's made some pretty big blunders before and God knows the editors GW employ have no eye for continuity...

Wishful thinking?

Ex-Blueshirt
08-03-2008, 20:29
Dude with regards to fluff it really is GW's ball and they can do whatever the hell they like with it. For better or worse. There is no wrong or right in that respect, there is only what is and what isn't.

TheLionReturns
08-03-2008, 20:34
The way I see the Namatjira/Alpharius relationship was that Namatjira was in charge of the campaign and Alpharius was tasked with lending Astartes support. Now many Primarchs would have walked in, taken command and resolved the conflict but this is not the Alpha Legion way. They did their own thing and manipulated any support they needed. Namatjira clearly had a massive ego. I assumed Alpharius concluded that the best way to manipulate Namatjira into the actions he wanted was to flatter the ego. It may have been easier or more befitting his station to bully to get his way, or even execute Namatjira if he disobeyed, but that is not the Alpha way. They like manipulation and deception.

On the point of begging a withdrawal, I read this as more Alpharius imploring Namatjira to protect his own troops and make the right decision, rather than outright begging. A simple one off attempt to make him see sense before leaving them to their fate. Ultimately they were Namatjiras responsibility. Space Marines have more important things to concern themselves with than looking after the Imperial Army. If the Imperial Army don't want to act then I doubt Alpharius would really be that bothered, he certainly had no qualms about the loss of human life during the battles themselves.

The only part of the relationship that concerned me was the part where Namatjira was considering reporting Alpharius and having him censured. However, I just read this as further evidence of Namatjiras ego and delusions of grandeur. I felt the author assumed we would see this as a ridiculous scenario and therefore conclude that Namatjira's opinion of his influence was a gross exaggeration of reality, thus reinforcing the description of him as egotistical.

Shaper Shakra
08-03-2008, 20:52
Whether it was the real Alpharius or not isn't the point. The fact is it was seen that the primarch of the Alpha Legion knelt before a lord commander of the Imperial Army.
You talk about the benefits of Alpharius' gesture of kneeling before Namatjira? There were no benefits. Quite the contrary. If Namatjira had become Alpharius' servant as soon as the primarch had come on to the scene (how it should have been) then Alpharius wouldn't have had to expend so much effort on secrecy and the vast majority of the expedition would have made it off safely off Nurthene when disaster struck. Do you recall how Alpharius ASKED Namatjira for evacuation and the Lord Commander ignored him.

I'm not in the millitary and I recognise the significance of one man kneeling before another. Are you suggesting men in the 41st millenium can't do the same?

First point, what if the Lord Commander knew it wasn't Alpharius and thus didn't give a damn? And even if it was Alpharius, what was he going to do, lop off the Lord Commander's head and go, "K chaps, run, run, run!"

And on the second point, maybe you're right, they're probably not idiots. By that logic they would probably realize the eight foot tall, warp infused, legendary tactician/killing machine probably holds more power and was just being polite.

Captain Stern
08-03-2008, 21:36
Any one else care to make excuses for Abnett?

Captain Stern
08-03-2008, 21:57
Any one else care to make excuses for Abnett?

He does seem to be a jolly nice chap!

Wazzahamma
08-03-2008, 23:03
Like you say: he's mentioned only barely by Alpharius, and in a bad light, then he's mentioned a little more by the villain of the story, and this time in a good light.

Well, what I actually said was that Alpharius gives NO opinion on Guilliman's character, rather than one in a bad light.

Stating that someone despises you is not an opinion on their character.

Stating that you ignore their opinion, is not an opinion on their character, but simply your approach to dealing with them.



As if this isn't bad enough for Guilleman, we find out that the sequel is written by Ben Counter. This isn't cause for concern? Are you kidding me?

I'll wait till I read the book. And is it a sequel as such?



Bowing down before someone to pay homage is VERY significant in any age. It's always been The Emperor then the Primarchs and then everyone else under them. Has this changed?

Fair enough on the difference between Horus' situation and Alpharius'. I was wrong to use that example.

I will say that Abnett went to lengths to paint Alpha/Omega and their legion as operating in a vastly different manner to other legions and primarchs.

The gestures and matters of honour, diplomacy and tradition that you point out as being violated by this Alpahrius, are most likely of no significance to him or the A Legion.

Again and again, we are told that they are pragmatic and without personal ego.

No other primarch would even consider letting someone else stand in for them. It would be the highest insult. This gives us our biggest key to the psychology of the Alpha primarch/s and his legion.

As Chayne said in the novel "They do not practise the codes of honour and nobility shown by the other Legions Astartes"

In regards to what possible advantage bowing could supply? It fits in perfectly with the Alpha Legion modus operandi (which has now been established as the exception to the Legion Astartes in general) in that it gives others a false impression of their own power and security, whilst allowing the Alpha Legion to appear less impressive and threatening than they are.

Power doesn't come through show of force, reputation or rank for them. It comes through manipulation.

They operate outside of the idea of the Imperial
Dictatorship/Monarchy/whatever whilst supporting it. People like Namatjira see the legion as young upstarts, unproven, dishonourable and lowly in comparison to the other legions.

Not only do the Alpha Legion not care, they likely prefer it that way.

Abnett hasn't contradicted how other primarchs and legions are represented at all, he's simply defined the Alpha Legion as a truly individualistic Legion in comparison.

The Judge
09-03-2008, 00:37
Right, the whole Primarch kneeling business did not seem at all odd to me - probably because Abnett can never do any wrong, but also, as I saw it, a Lord Commander (Commander of an entire Expedition Fleet) has a great deal of power, and is *in charge*

By kneeling, Alpharius stated that he was not taking over (though he well could have done), presumably because it suited his purposes not to take over. I'm sure other posters have made similar points better than me, but I simply cannot fathom why Captain Stern is so wound up about this.

Edit: Wazzahammer wins.

Phunting
09-03-2008, 03:31
Well to back up Stern, I was shocked by the whole thing and it does indeed seem utterly out of place and weird.

Multifarious
09-03-2008, 03:45
First off, Lastie was that a Deathnote quote on the first page?

On Topic now, but I agree with the whole issue about Alpharius bowing, he did not act like other primarchs in many ways. Perhaps this is one of the reasons that RG despises him?

Years ago I tried to argue that Alpharius may not be dead in the current time line. With the only information about his death being unreliable and atypical. In this book I found a lot of things that seem to support this. One is the twins thing, where even if he did die then he was a twin. Two was that the one who slew him was supposed to be RG, and the book implies that Alpharius rarely, if ever met the other primarchs and it would hardly be surprising if RG was mistaken, particularly as it is mentioned that the Terminator captain quite frequently took his place. How likely would you be to recognise a brother (though they did not resemble each other) who you had rarely if ever met, who has every member of the legion surgically altered to look more like himself, of the same stature, in the same armour?

Sorry to ramble so. I just finished reading it you see. Many people also seem to be assuming that people are telling the truth. The Cabal could very well have been lying. So could AO in many ways. Unlike many of the other Primarchs we do not see his thoughts.

BrainFireBob
09-03-2008, 06:26
Yeah, since the Primarchs were supposed to tower over their legions, one does not see how such surgical corrections could be made without hand-waiving of the worst sort.

Sabbad
09-03-2008, 10:13
I don't remember it ever being said that ALL Primarchs were universally far larger than there Space Marine servants.

I've always kind of presumed that Alpharius was the shortest Primarch. Fits with the younger brother image, as well as deliberate understatement of power and the "sneakiness" that allows other Marines to stand in for him.

reds8n
09-03-2008, 10:23
With regards to the Primarch height thing, the pic of Russ in the "visions" series shows him to be shorter than his Wolfguard. He basically looks like a shorter angrier version of Gordon Strachan to me but there you go.

To my mind I think Guilliman did indeed slay 1 of the Alpha Legion Primarchs, as I think the Primarchs all shared some kind of connection which meant they "knew" each other. Like when Alpharius tried to storm Horus' ship.

Wazzahamma
09-03-2008, 10:23
The short-ass Alpharius urban legend rears its head again!

It's always been stated that Alpharius was the same height as his brothers.

And as far as I can tell from the novel, no normal astartes ever actually stood in for Alpharius. Even the oversized Sheed Ranko in terminator armour only stood in for Omegon, never as the public head of the legion.

BrainFireBob
09-03-2008, 10:31
Alpharius and Horus stood eye-to-eye, from the IA story.

Wazzahamma
09-03-2008, 10:33
As did Alpharius and Guilliman.

BrainFireBob
09-03-2008, 10:44
Yes, but it's *really* hard not to see Guilliman as having small-man complex. ;-)

Wazzahamma
09-03-2008, 10:53
Oh yeah, there's that bit in the IA where it states Guilliman faces Alpharius while standing on top of two volumes of the Codex Astartes.

Brother Loki
09-03-2008, 11:37
I think its pretty much perfect that Alpharius kneels wthout a second thought. He seems to be one of the few Primarchs (or even Astartes) who remembers that their purpose is to serve humanity, not to rule it. By kneeling, he strokes the Lord Commander's ego, and signifies that he's not going to interfere in the way he runs his army. He makes a deliberate attempt not to come across as an arrogant ass throwing his weight about.

Everything about Alpharius backs up his central philosophy, as established in the IA article, that he's setting the Legion up for a time when he might not be around - training them to be self sufficient and devolving command. One thing that I really liked was the way that once an operative has been recruited, they are 100% part of the Legion, treated just like any other member, be they Astartes, human or even Primarch. Alpharius seems to repect people for the skills and talents they possess, regardless of station. For the record, I also really liked the twins idea.

Oelitto
09-03-2008, 11:51
It strikes me that Guilliman would be standing on 10 volumes, each at least 5 inches thick, whilst wearing a Nepolean Bonapart hat, and quoting Margaret Thatcher's greatest Speeches. That level of arrogance would nulify anyones psyker powers even the Emperor's.

Lastie
09-03-2008, 12:12
Wishful thinking?

Perhaps. It's not like the first time the guys over at BL have made us wonder if any of them actually know much about the fictional universes they're publishing books for.


First off, Lastie was that a Deathnote quote on the first page?

I'm glad someone noticed, even if it is the 7th page. :p Although you have to admit; the convulted plans and plots pulled off in that series is so very Tzeentchian (and would impress Alpharius no less too).


It strikes me that Guilliman would be standing on 10 volumes, each at least 5 inches thick, whilst wearing a Nepolean Bonapart hat, and quoting Margaret Thatcher's greatest Speeches. That level of arrogance would nulify anyones psyker powers even the Emperor's.

Oh great, now I have the image of Ian Holm's version of Napoleon from Terry Gilliam's Time Bandits playing in my head ... only this time he's wearing Ultramarine's armour. :evilgrin:

Multifarious
09-03-2008, 12:21
Yeah, since the Primarchs were supposed to tower over their legions, one does not see how such surgical corrections could be made without hand-waiving of the worst sort.

Ranko is meant to be that large, it is hardly surprising that in a rather numerous legion they could have a very large marine. The surgical alterations I was talking about were all cosmetic, I should of been clearer, like shape of nose, general facial shape.

Shaper Shakra
09-03-2008, 13:19
Has anyone ever seen that incredibly strange and out of place statement that Constantine Valor was the exact same size as Alpharius? It always seemed so weird to me that they would be descriptive like that, especially when all the primarchs were supposed to be the same size. My bet- Alpharius runs the Adeptus Custodes. :p

fracas
09-03-2008, 14:33
any chance alpharius cloned himself a twin after the 20 primarchs were dispersed?

Captain Stern
09-03-2008, 16:46
Right, I went on a bit of an ill fated binge last night and ended up asking Dan Abnett on his blog about the kneeling thing (and not in the most polite of terms, regrettably). This is what he had to say:


Namatjira is empowered with the authority of Horus, which equals the Emperor. He is the commander of a branch of the crusade. Of course fething primarchs kneel to him. He’s the proxy of the fething Emperor. By the way, congratulations for being the first Legion nay-sayer so far.

That explains it I guess. I still don't like it. Does this mean the primarchs aren't proxies of the Emperor too? How many of these branches of the crusade are there? If there are only a few then doesn't it mean that some of the primarchs fall under the authority of an Imperial Commander such as Namatjira?

CasperTheGhost
09-03-2008, 17:12
Namatjira is empowered with the authority of Horus, which equals the Emperor. He is the commander of a branch of the crusade. Of course fething primarchs kneel to him. He’s the proxy of the fething Emperor. By the way, congratulations for being the first Legion nay-sayer so far.

Hmm so he is saying your the first and only nay-sayer. I take that as a personal challenge (somehow). As a fellow Warseerer i will support you be another nay-sayer. I'm nice like that :p. and I'm bored

So basically he is saying that Alpha kneeled because the commander was a proxy of Horus and so the Emperor. So is the Alpha if i'm correct.

Anywho i don't need common sense and reasons to moan. If i did where would be the fun.

CasperTheFriendlyGhost
Lord of the =[L]=

Mechanicus
09-03-2008, 17:13
Well, there are four thousand, five hundred and sixty-nine primary expedition fleets, so at least that number minus the eighteen Primarchs. I'd presume the sixty thousand or so secondary expedition fleets were of lesser authority, since they'd be engaged in compliance or occupation missions and not the direct Crusade business, but I can't say for sure.

Captain Stern
09-03-2008, 17:19
I'm gonna have to stop reading his blog. It really destroys the 'mystique' of his books for me.



Well, there are four thousand, five hundred and sixty-nine primary expedition fleets, so at least that number minus the eighteen Primarchs. I'd presume the sixty thousand or so secondary expedition fleets were of lesser authority, since they'd be engaged in compliance or occupation missions and not the direct Crusade business, but I can't say for sure.

So this means there are 4569, possiibly even 64569, people who the primarchs are expected to kneel for? :wtf: I think I was right to be p***ed off!

Mechanicus
09-03-2008, 17:29
I would presume that those (sixty?) four thousand five hundred and fifty one also have to kneel to the primarchs when they are on their territory. Look at Lord Commander Varvarus or Fayle who are under the primarchs' command.

I suppose it's a case of who's in charge of the fleet. If a primarch is, then he's been charged by the Emperor to take control of the fleet and prosecute that warzone, so the lord commander is below the primarch. If it's the lord commander's fleet, then the primarch kneels, since the lord commander is the representative of the Emperor there, with the primarch assisting rather than taking charge.

Just a thought.

jimbobodoll
10-03-2008, 01:47
Finished reading Legion tonight and I thought of an interpretation of the rebel for the Emperor-stay loyal and lose conundrum posed in the final chapters that hasn't been discussed so far in this thread.

Specifically, what if the cabal deceived the Alpha Legion in such a manner that they were actually attempting to engender the destruction of the human race as their sole aim? As John Grammaticus walks away he mourns his part in what he terms the, "destruction of the human race" ( ad libbed there)...

Perhaps the cabal persuaded Alpharius Omegon into a false choice relying on their shared pragmatism to choose the side of Horus and thus spell the end of humanity that is slowing playing out now in 40k (what with an interred Emperor and retarded technology)?

TheLionReturns
10-03-2008, 12:29
Specifically, what if the cabal deceived the Alpha Legion in such a manner that they were actually attempting to engender the destruction of the human race as their sole aim? As John Grammaticus walks away he mourns his part in what he terms the, "destruction of the human race" ( ad libbed there)...



It is an interesting idea. The problem for me is I have difficulty believing the Alpha Legion could be coerced into doing anything. They seem paranoid for a start, but also seem obsessed with gathering knowledge. The Cabal is merely one source of information. It seems against their nature to act on a single source. Perhaps the Cabal use this nature to set them along a path of further manipulation, so the events of the book are merely the start of a longer process of coercion.

grumpy old gamer
11-03-2008, 21:40
Mmmm?
I thought that this book was to reveal some long held secrets ?
I mean I know that I am old but there was nothing that hasn't been thrown around for years. Oh a few nice twists on the old yarn - twins, The Cabal etc but nothing fluff shattering huge.
I liked the presentation through the eyes of guardsmen but the idea that a fat terminator could impersonate a Primarch ?
They are all shown as having an inate aura of command and power, vertible effigies of martial prowess and paragons of honour and stuff. mmmm - no.
Also the idea that they can skulk and be evasive, while waltzing about in power armour.
I like the rendition of the guard and the Nurthenians (sp?) but was a little underwhelmed by the vain glorious promises of GW that this would be a book of secret smiting, you think I would have learnt by now wouldn't ya.

Sabbad
11-03-2008, 21:52
Alpharius has a twin brother. The Alpha Legion joined Horus as loyalists, whilst attempting to destroy humanity. The Watchers in the Dark are part of an inter-species Cabal locked in a constant battle against Chaos, whilst simultaneously invoking schemes involving other First Founding Legions.

These things have been batted around for years? I ought to be surfing different forums.

grumpy old gamer
11-03-2008, 21:56
As I said the twin thing is new but hardly shattering.
The fact that Horus losing was chaos winning has been around for years.
The whole Cabal things is really an extension of the theory that the Old Ones are still trying to pull strings even though they are long dead.
Considering the ground that could / should have been broken this is hardly worth the applause that I see is echoing around here.

Norminator
11-03-2008, 22:00
Living up to your name eh, grumpy old gamer :p

grumpy old gamer
11-03-2008, 22:06
One tries... I mean I hope that one day all the optimism I see will bear fruit ( I wonder if the majority of posters here are from US / Ozz - New Worls type places - both very optimistic countries and with good reason I hasten to add - please no insult meant just an envious observation).
Instead I see GW offering the Golden Apple only to find a sour pear with really good painting.

Frgt/10
12-03-2008, 06:26
As I said the twin thing is new but hardly shattering.

so the fact that there is (probably) a 'loyalist' primarch still wandering the stars isnt shattering enough?

what about the fact that despite Alpharius/Omegon remaining 'loyal' to the emperor, and despite the fact that one of them is probably alive, they haven't seen fit to wage war against the other chaos legions? does this mean that further down the track, the legion was corrupted or turned by chaos in a truer sense than just fighting with horus?

I avoided saying 'rejoining the imperium' as if they tried to they'd get shot down as soon as they were sighted.

grumpy old gamer
12-03-2008, 08:10
The idea that a Primarch is a twin is new. I am not arguing that...but what does Legion do with it other than throw it out there ?
The idea that the Alpha's were more than just a bunch of shadowy Choas Lovers has been around for as long as they have.
I was ust trying to say that I thought that this book was to shed light where before was only ( and for good reason) grim darkness.
For me it did not. It brought some new concepts to the table but I was looking for answers to old ones, not more engima's wrapped in puzzells with a side order of what if's.

TheLionReturns
12-03-2008, 12:12
I was ust trying to say that I thought that this book was to shed light where before was only ( and for good reason) grim darkness.
For me it did not. It brought some new concepts to the table but I was looking for answers to old ones, not more engima's wrapped in puzzells with a side order of what if's.


Isn't that the point of the Alpha Legion though. There are no answers only deeper and deeper mysteries. If I was commissioning the book I think I would be asking for more enigmas wrapped in puzzles with a side order of what ifs. IMO no question about the Alpha legion should be answered unless in doing so you pose at least 2 more questions.

grumpy old gamer
12-03-2008, 21:27
Lion - that I don't mind BUT we were promised and I again foolishly believed ( I should know I know but there is no fool like an old grumpy fool) that in this book as I have stated we were getting some rock solid answers.
Oh well.
That will teach me to trust GW ( well it won't but hey ho...)

Lastie
12-03-2008, 21:50
Answers?!? Don't be silly. GW have never been, and will never be, tidy with their background. I believe Andy Chambers once mentioned, in the Necron Codex Designer's Notes several years back, that 'it never pays to be too tidy with your background'. Wise words from Rick Priestly, if I remember correctly.

So don't expect any word-of-God absolute truth answers coming your way any time soon.

grumpy old gamer
12-03-2008, 22:10
Lastie - by the way loved the Primarch fiction thing - lost a good part of a day to that.
I am going to sound old but from my RT days and through GW have played it close...and I can see why and had a lot of fun with it.
BUT when I read in WD that Legion will answer stuff well...I want blinking answers.
My job now is about getting answers and it p***** ( I hate this no swearing b********* because little timmy might read it **** and cry - trust me Little Timmy if over the age of 6 has learnt all the words and the contexts because his world is the playground and that is one rough place think prison yard for those under a yard...sorry)
when I am told one thing and after paying for it given another.
Hell the ROC gave more than this away.

TheLionReturns
12-03-2008, 23:31
Lion - that I don't mind BUT we were promised and I again foolishly believed ( I should know I know but there is no fool like an old grumpy fool) that in this book as I have stated we were getting some rock solid answers.
Oh well.
That will teach me to trust GW ( well it won't but hey ho...)

To be honest I hadn't read any preview of the book so wasn't aware of this. You have a fair complaint and whilst I am happy the book turned out the way it did, I am a bit mystified as to why they would promise answers and give none. Surely advertising the book as "introducing the most secretive legion adding further depth to the intrigue of the events leading up to the Horus Heresy" is just as good a hook, and an honest one. Almost seems as if they commissioned one book and received another, although there is no way this could have happened. Very bizarre.

grumpy old gamer
12-03-2008, 23:39
If I recall *hic* damn shiraz - sorry - there was a interview with Dan in WD and he made the big promises then about it.
Still, apart from a sense of wtf where are these promised answers I actually liked the damn book - far more than Fulgrim but that is a whole other thread.
I think that I have stated my dissappointment with the adverts enough - the book was enjoyable and I like John Gram-us (sp not a strong point on second bottle ) - who is Jeramiah Cornelius ( Morcocks eternal hero) in a great new guise.
I just wonder whats next ? sorry to cynical to post constructively so please ignore this grumpy old sod's meanderings.

Lastie
12-03-2008, 23:53
Lastie - by the way loved the Primarch fiction thing - lost a good part of a day to that.

Cheers! Hope you're not going to demand that good part of a day back any time soon though. :p

I'd like to clarify that my tongue was sort-of in my cheek with my last post (as it generally is); I didn't catch the advertising for Legion, so I wasn't expecting any big revelations (although what they gave was interesting, even if it raised far more questions than any single author can physically answer - Go Abnett!!). Having said that, when this whole 'new HH fluff' affair started I was cynical that they would ever really answer any of our many, many, many (and a lot more) questions us fans have built up ever since Adeptus Titanicus first (and the veterans here may correct me if I'm wrong) made mention of the Heresy.

Frankly I want to know what happened to Horus' second lightning claw, and I won't take ret-con as an answer! :p

grumpy old gamer
13-03-2008, 00:11
Latsie - You are my new God.
My lord you remember Tit's and gun icus - be grumpy and proud.
Anyway second bottle of Shiraz means this poster off to talk to Khorne on the big white telephone...
Still doesn't mean I am not pissed at the idea of a book of revelations failing to meet the ideal it set..oh well.
Bargh

chris.seraphim
13-03-2008, 10:54
OK, hers my take on Legion. I reckon were far enough into the thread for me not to have to say this, but THIS CONTAINS SPOILERS IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THE BOOK. So tread careful...

1- The book itself. I'm not a big fan of the writing (or more accurately the pacing) in the book - it takes far too long to get where its going, and doesnt give me enough of what I want to see - in short, Astartes, Primarchs, grand events etc. I understand that this is to emphasise the AL's secrecy and the sense of their web of intrigue etc. as well as keeping Alpharius (Omegon) a distant, secret figure. I also don't like the paltry information we get on the Cabal, but I guess this could be a plot element (see below) or the 'rushed' sense of the last 2 chapters of the book. Too much pondersome characterisation at the start, too much grand action in too little time at the end - like a Star Wars prequel. I'll accept thats entirely a personal taste thing, and I did read all of it, which means it can't have been that bad - maybe it's my issues below that colour my affection for the book.

2- The Cabal and their offer. IMHO this is interesting, very interesting. I do like how the HH boooks are expanding the 40k universe to show that it does actually involve a myriad of sentient species, making it a more comprehensive, believable and IMHO better sci-fi subcreation than if it wa genuinely only Codex races that populated the universe. More Farscape/Babylon 5/Star Wars/Star Trek is GOOD in this sense.

I LIKE that the alien races don't like mankind, because lets be honest they wouldnt. Humanity is like the 40k version of the USA, full of righteous arrogance and it's highly equipped soldiery spreading across the world/galaxy to protect/create selfish economic/human interests..... Whats not to hate?

However, their offer to Alpharius (Omegon) is a trifle tainted I feel, because to me this smacks of Tzeentchian manipulation. Whats to say that the Acuity iosn't just a Chaos inspired vision (see Galaxy in Flames) What better way to make a Primarch turn traitor than to convince him he is doing the right thing for the whole human race? This does ring very similar to the published tempting of Horus, although his personal vanity was targeted far more directly. What's more, given Alpharius(Omegon)'s love for secrey and duplicity, it would appeal to Tzeentch VERY much to use his own deceptive wiles against him, to then turn against his father, and I'm sure the other Chaos powers would appreciate the irony too.

Stroke your beard with me....hmmmmnnnn, suspicious?

3- The twin thing. Why the hell not? As the story goes, the Primarchs were gestating embryos when the lab weas infiltrated, and there is no good reason why one of them shouldnt have separated into identical twins. Hell, one Primarch grew wings, and two have bright red skin, one has golden skin - a twin isn't exactly beyond the realms of possibility in this company!

4- The Burning Need for a Sequel So we now know that the Alpha Legion, the most secretive and covert of Legions joins the Heresy, supposedly with the best of intentions, to insure that Chaos does NOT overthrow the galaxy. But we also know that the Heresy fails, and the horror future of the Emperor in the Golden Throne, and many millenia of dissolution from the ideals of the Great Crusade ensue. Why do the Alpha Legion fail? Do they remain faithfull to the Emperor's ideals, or do they in the end, fall to the same powers as their new 'allies?' I know that this recasting of the AL as 'loyal' annoys many who have had them as a 'proper' Chaos force before, but I quite like it, and I always thought there was a fluff suggestion that the Alpha's were in fact NOT a Chaos Legion, for all that they rebelled, which leads us to...

5- Fluff inconsistencies with how the Alpha Legion were previously portrayed
The Alpha Legion (it seems to be the consensus) was previously portrayed as the most insiduous of Chaos Legions, using cultists to forment disconent, sabotage and insurgency within the Imperium. They used disconcerting battle cries, such as 'For the Emperor', but were IMHO almost never portrayed as being an especially Chaotic Legion, especially when compared to the Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, World Eaters or the zeal of the Word Bearers.
It has also been written (OK, this is from wiki, but Im sure ive read it elsewhere) that Alpharius joined the Heresy as his loyalty was to Horus, who had 'discovered' him, rather than the Emperor.

Does that sound about right?

Well IMHO, nothing that is shown in Legion contradicts any of this. The AL do rebel, and they do use varying human contacts, agents, infiltrators and saboteurs to fulfil their aims, and given that 90% of the source material in 40k is from an Imperial pov, im sure any AL agents who were uncovered woudl be filed under 'Chaos Cultists' just as any who are disaffected with the Imperium would be. There is little evidence of them being Chaotic (and if Legion holds true, they wouldn't be!) just massive evidence of their being against the Imperium, which they doubtless are.
Also, Alpahrius apparently joined the Heresy out of loyalty, it just seems it was loyalty to the Emperor's ideals rather than Horus that was his decision.

But then again, I always liked the AL as the non-chaotic Traitor Legion, so I'm biased.

5- Direction of the HH Series - the Corruption
A lot of folks seem to be quite annoyed at the continuing characterisation of the Traitor Legions, from Horus' being duped quite easily, to Fulgrim getting posessed etc. etc.
I disagree, I think that the characterisation is pretty damned good, and makes sense with the characters involved. Let's remember that however nuch you may love your image of Chaos as the spiky bikers who stuck a middle finger up to the establishment, raped some virgins and drunk from their skulls, that just won't cut it for corrupting the most noble and powerful creatures in the galaxy.

Horus was corrupted through his vanity, his lust for martial pride and power - it was his jealousy that the Emperor was (supposedly) aiming for godhood, and that he would be cast aside and his magnificent achievments left unremarked, that drove him to reel. This is fitting, it is his Pride that caused him to fall, no matter how much of a lie was told to him.

Fulgrim was obsessed with form and beauty and sensation to the point of arrogance and a demon twisted his preception to its own ends, rejecting loyalty and brotherhood in favour of sensation and amusement. Fulgrim then repented of his vain actions but in doing so allowed himself to be posessed.
It was arrogance, lust and (again) pride that caused Fulgrim's fall.

To corrupt a great man, you need to strike at his pride, his arrogance or any weakness of character - only a mental weakling is truly interested in CRUSH< SMASH< KILL< BLOOD 4 THA BLUD GOD! WARGH! Like I say, that's fine for the line troopers (or Angron...) but more sophisticated guys take more sophisticated corruption.

6- Direction of the HH Series - the actual aim of the Chaos Gods
This is sheer conjecture, but it seems to me that through the HH series there is a theme, that the Emperor's incarceration (rather than outright defeat) and the slow corruption and decay of the Imperium was the actual intent of the Chaos Gods.
For one thing, the vision they gave to Horus was a true one, of how things would be after the Heresy (Emperor worshipped as God, loyal Primarchs revered, dark, gothic, hopeless future) - only it came about BECAUSE he rebelled, rather than was stopped by his rebellion.
Likewise, the Cabal (whether they are Tzeentchian led or not) predicted the horror of the Golden Throne, and predicted it as a slow dissolution into Chaos rather than ther Imperial line that it saves us all from Chaos.

So the eventual end result of the Heresy, with the Emperor revered as a Godf, by the ignotrant and hopeless mass of mankind WAS predicted by numerous sources, and is IMHO the best thing that could have happened to Chaos.
1- It reinstitutionalised religion in the day to day lives of the people, and a religious man is far easier to turn than one who rejects the supernatural.
2- As predicted by the Cabal, a Horus win would have resulted in humanity blowing itself out, possibly to the point where the Craftworld Eldar, or some emergent race could have smuffed them out. So far better than they remain, in a hopeless, drudge of existnce, quite innocuously feeding the gods with their despair, hatred, spite, bigotry, petty scheming etc.
3- Chaos works far better with something to push against - an all out win for Chaos would be boring, and the Gods thrive on the sport (which is why the pull their favour from Champions at key moments...) almost certain in the knowledge that they'll survive even if their forces take a smashing this day.

I'll use some well established fluff to back this up.

In the duel between Horus and the Emperor, Horus kicked the Emperor's ass while E struggled with the dire emotional issues of killing of his favourite baby boy, but when the E unleashed his 'unstoppable psychic attack' atfter taking an incapacitating beating, the Chaos Gods 'withdrew thier favour' from Horus, supposedly because they were scared of the Enperor's attack.

That's just BS, no matter how string the E is, I doubtr he could even hurt the actual warp entities of the Gods through a proxy. Maybe the psychic equivalent of a bloody nose, but no more. - it increasingly seems to me that the Gods realised they had done enough damage to the E and it was better to let Horus die now, like the pawn he is. At that point just sit back and get fat on tens of millenia of war, decay, betrayal and conflict.

So, as has been mooted more than a few times on these boards, the Imperium as it exists is in actual fact a Chaos-desired distortion of the Emperor's vision for mankind.

Just a thought, but I digress.

Summation

I liked Legion, but not as much as the Loken books, or Fulgrim. Too much Peto, not enough Alpharius, too much action, not described enough in the last chapter - it really reads like the first act of a three parter. If it turns out to be just that, then I'll kill all my anoyances of the book.
There have been some interesting things thrown up, further greying the lines between Loyalist and Traitor, which I love. I am eagerly awaiting the books dealing with the siege of Terra, further adventures of the loyal traitors the Alpha Legion, and hopefully, soem tales after the duel on the Battle Barge...

It also seems to me that GW is recolouring a lot of old fluff, and seems to be hinting at a paradigm shift to takle place in M42 - I have long wanted the plotline of the Game universe to move forward from M41.999 and I think they may be working a long plan towards this. My hard hearted business head says they won't do it, till sales of 40k minatures go down the tubes, but I'd LOVE to see it. The final darkness of the Imperium, and the hope that comes after...theres got to be hope. Right?

Eetion
13-03-2008, 11:34
Wow thats deep Chris.Seraphim.

again dont read on Spoilers ahead

As an Alpha Player i love the slant on the Legion.... im quite happy in every sense....
My big problem with the book is Alpharius being wounded by the Lucifer Black at the end of the book... how utterly disappointing for a Primarch.

Its also intriguing to consider if the AL were in fact and still loyal, or have they been corrupted?

This really does need a sequal...
Hopefully against the Ultras, do one or both of the Primarchs die... is there still an Alpha Primarch knocking about?

There are a dozen questions i want answered now.

malika
13-03-2008, 12:08
This really does need a sequal...
Hopefully against the Ultras, do one or both of the Primarchs die... is there still an Alpha Primarch knocking about?
A sequel is needed indeed! As for Alpharius dying, personally I hope that he is dead for real (as in both twin dead). First reason would be that he could "pull a Night Haunter" on the Imperium as in proving a point. While Night Haunter proved that the Emperor/Imperium could be just as savage/brutal as himself, Alpharius would prove his tactics/strategies to be superior to those of the Guilliman's Codex Astartes. The second reason is a continuation on the first for Alpharius' superiority lied in the fact that his troops have become able to operate independently from an HQ/Primarch. It might also have been that Alpharius let himself be killed because he believed that his Legion was mature enough to fully operate on their own and would no longer need him, his "purpose" was fulfilled and he was no longer needed.


2- The Cabal and their offer. IMHO this is interesting, very interesting. I do like how the HH boooks are expanding the 40k universe to show that it does actually involve a myriad of sentient species, making it a more comprehensive, believable and IMHO better sci-fi subcreation than if it wa genuinely only Codex races that populated the universe. More Farscape/Babylon 5/Star Wars/Star Trek is GOOD in this sense.
I think this has always been the case, it's just that GW is a master at focussing on just the Imperium or that race which they are trying to sell at the moment. There are probably thousands, if not millions of other alien species out there!


I LIKE that the alien races don't like mankind, because lets be honest they wouldnt. Humanity is like the 40k version of the USA, full of righteous arrogance and it's highly equipped soldiery spreading across the world/galaxy to protect/create selfish economic/human interests..... Whats not to hate?
Hmm, personally I dont really want to get in THAT debate (comparing it to existing nations) but I do think that humanity is hated by aliens. Probably because humanity wants to conquer the stars and kill every alien. In that point of view humanity could be viewed as a disease (don't you like that little Matrix logic here) which is trying to kill the universe. Besides humanity's imperialist/destructive nature there is another problem: Chaos. Back in the older fluff humanity was responsible for the creation for three of the four Chaos Gods, while this might not be the case, humanity still Chaos' primary source for souls/worship/mortals. Chaos might not be defeated with the destruction of humanity, but they would be weakened or forced to take another form. A group such as the Cabal is very right at hating humanity for this.


However, their offer to Alpharius (Omegon) is a trifle tainted I feel, because to me this smacks of Tzeentchian manipulation. Whats to say that the Acuity iosn't just a Chaos inspired vision (see Galaxy in Flames) What better way to make a Primarch turn traitor than to convince him he is doing the right thing for the whole human race?
All the Traitor Primarchs believed they were doing the right thing when they betrayed the Emperor, they didn't do it for the sake of being evil.


5- Fluff inconsistencies with how the Alpha Legion were previously portrayed
The Alpha Legion (it seems to be the consensus) was previously portrayed as the most insiduous of Chaos Legions, using cultists to forment disconent, sabotage and insurgency within the Imperium. They used disconcerting battle cries, such as 'For the Emperor', but were IMHO almost never portrayed as being an especially Chaotic Legion, especially when compared to the Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, World Eaters or the zeal of the Word Bearers.
It has also been written (OK, this is from wiki, but Im sure ive read it elsewhere) that Alpharius joined the Heresy as his loyalty was to Horus, who had 'discovered' him, rather than the Emperor.

Does that sound about right?
Well the IA: Alpha Legion stated that Alpharius liked to attack the enemy on many fronts, not just a single direct way. In rules this has simply been translated with "cultists/infiltrators". I think the Alpha Legion would use way more methods of defeating a single enemy at the same time. Practicality wasn't that important either, remember that war from the IA where Alpharius used very pretty and fancy strategies/tactics but were quite inefficient, a "waste of boltershells" according to Guilliman. And while Guilliman is probably very biased in this I dont believe he would have been that far from the truth in this.


In the duel between Horus and the Emperor, Horus kicked the Emperor's ass while E struggled with the dire emotional issues of killing of his favourite baby boy, but when the E unleashed his 'unstoppable psychic attack' atfter taking an incapacitating beating, the Chaos Gods 'withdrew thier favour' from Horus, supposedly because they were scared of the Enperor's attack.

That's just BS, no matter how string the E is, I doubtr he could even hurt the actual warp entities of the Gods through a proxy. Maybe the psychic equivalent of a bloody nose, but no more. - it increasingly seems to me that the Gods realised they had done enough damage to the E and it was better to let Horus die now, like the pawn he is. At that point just sit back and get fat on tens of millenia of war, decay, betrayal and conflict.
IIRC the Chaos Gods didn't back down because they wanted to or were forced to by the Emperor. Horus' old (and loyal) self came back for just a moment, right before he was about to kill his father, so Horus himself pushed the Chaos influence away for just a tiny moment, and in that tiny moment of weakness the Emperor killed his favoured son.



It also seems to me that GW is recolouring a lot of old fluff, and seems to be hinting at a paradigm shift to takle place in M42 - I have long wanted the plotline of the Game universe to move forward from M41.999 and I think they may be working a long plan towards this. My hard hearted business head says they won't do it, till sales of 40k minatures go down the tubes, but I'd LOVE to see it. The final darkness of the Imperium, and the hope that comes after...theres got to be hope. Right?
Personally I don't hope they will move forward with their timeline...

DantesInferno
13-03-2008, 12:50
Do they remain faithfull to the Emperor's ideals, or do they in the end, fall to the same powers as their new 'allies?' I know that this recasting of the AL as 'loyal' annoys many who have had them as a 'proper' Chaos force before, but I quite like it, and I always thought there was a fluff suggestion that the Alpha's were in fact NOT a Chaos Legion, for all that they rebelled, which leads us to...

5- Fluff inconsistencies with how the Alpha Legion were previously portrayed
The Alpha Legion (it seems to be the consensus) was previously portrayed as the most insiduous of Chaos Legions, using cultists to forment disconent, sabotage and insurgency within the Imperium. They used disconcerting battle cries, such as 'For the Emperor', but were IMHO almost never portrayed as being an especially Chaotic Legion, especially when compared to the Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, World Eaters or the zeal of the Word Bearers.
It has also been written (OK, this is from wiki, but Im sure ive read it elsewhere) that Alpharius joined the Heresy as his loyalty was to Horus, who had 'discovered' him, rather than the Emperor.

Does that sound about right?

Well IMHO, nothing that is shown in Legion contradicts any of this. The AL do rebel, and they do use varying human contacts, agents, infiltrators and saboteurs to fulfil their aims, and given that 90% of the source material in 40k is from an Imperial pov, im sure any AL agents who were uncovered woudl be filed under 'Chaos Cultists' just as any who are disaffected with the Imperium would be. There is little evidence of them being Chaotic (and if Legion holds true, they wouldn't be!) just massive evidence of their being against the Imperium, which they doubtless are.
Also, Alpahrius apparently joined the Heresy out of loyalty, it just seems it was loyalty to the Emperor's ideals rather than Horus that was his decision.

But then again, I always liked the AL as the non-chaotic Traitor Legion, so I'm biased.

There have been numerous hints dropped before that the Alpha Legion might not just be trying to bring down the Imperium.

For instance, the Recongregator faction is viewed by the Amalathians as "no better than the demagogues of the Alpha Legion". Maybe a hint at what the Alpha Legion is up to?

reds8n
13-03-2008, 13:03
It has also been written (OK, this is from wiki, but Im sure ive read it elsewhere) that Alpharius joined the Heresy as his loyalty was to Horus, who had 'discovered' him, rather than the Emperor.

I take this line to be the Imperium's best grasp at trying to understand why Alpharius rebelled, as they of ocurse would be unaware of the Cabal and their machinations.

MvS
13-03-2008, 13:18
POTENTIAL SPOILERS FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T READ 'LEGION'!





I also don't like the paltry information we get on the Cabal, but I guess this could be a plot element (see below) or the 'rushed' sense of the last 2 chapters of the book.

Agreed. Mind you, there's a tight word limit and writing turn around on the BLP books, so manybe Abnett ran out of time to deepen the Cabal imagery. I don't mean that as an excuse, just a possible explanation other than just 'clumsy pacing'.


I do like how the HH boooks are expanding the 40k universe to show that it does actually involve a myriad of sentient species, making it a more comprehensive, believable and IMHO better sci-fi subcreation than if it wa genuinely only Codex races that populated the universe.

Also agreed. The books are not, and should not, be bound by the game system where only alien races that have armies of miniatures can be explored in any depth.


Humanity is like the 40k version of the USA, full of righteous arrogance and it's highly equipped soldiery spreading across the world/galaxy to protect/create selfish economic/human interests..... Whats not to hate?
Careful friend. Don't step too blithely into political commentary.

You'd be surprised how easy it is to unintentionally derail a thread by making real workld comparisons mixed with personal opinion. I've done it far too often myself! :(


However, their offer to Alpharius (Omegon) is a trifle tainted I feel...{snip}...I'm sure the other Chaos powers would appreciate the irony too.

Oh Hell yes.

I don't necessarily think that the Acuity is a plot controlled directly by a Chaos God or daemon, but I am more than happy to think that the attitudes of the Cabal and the ramifications of their vision served Chaos.


Why the hell not? As the story goes, the Primarchs were gestating embryos when the lab weas infiltrated, and there is no good reason why one of them shouldnt have separated into identical twins. Hell, one Primarch grew wings, and two have bright red skin, one has golden skin - a twin isn't exactly beyond the realms of possibility in this company!

Preach it brother!


the Cabal (whether they are Tzeentchian led or not) predicted the horror of the Golden Throne, and predicted it as a slow dissolution into Chaos rather than ther Imperial line that it saves us all from Chaos.
Yeeees....


So the eventual end result of the Heresy, with the Emperor revered as a Godf, by the ignotrant and hopeless mass of mankind WAS predicted by numerous sources, and is IMHO the best thing that could have happened to Chaos.
Have to part company with you here, at least in part. I'll explain below.


1- It reinstitutionalised religion in the day to day lives of the people, and a religious man is far easier to turn than one who rejects the supernatural.

I think yes and no.

Remember that the biggest rebellion in Imperial history happened because of humanity's complete ignorance of the dangers and supernatural nature of Chaos - of the Gods and Daemons and the power of belief to shape them and even drive them away.

The early Imperium sneered at any and all 'fetishes' and religious symbology, brushing them all aside as myth. When they actually saw daemons they explained them away as being just a sort of alien from the Warp, which is only superficially true.

Whereas a giant Ork warboss could rip you to shreds, it is still essentially just a big alien biological creature that can be shot dead or run away from. Daemons can get into your mind and effect how you feel and think. They can bring out all those things you want to keep buried, fanning on them in the quiet of your subconscious until they become a blazing inferno.

Because no-one was prepared to face such enemies as daemons and the subtle whispers of Chaos, and even when they became aware of them they assumed that shooting at them would somehow be enough, half of humanity was led astray into Chaos. True most of them were just following Horus, but sooner or later that moment came when each and every traitor began to get corrupted in mind, body or spirit, or indeed all three.

Chaos isn't just a choice you can step back from, even if you didn't know you made the choice to accept it. Once you embrace it, it embraces you back and it will do everything to never let you go.

For all it's terrible conservatism and monstrous abuses, Emperor worship unites humanity against Chaos and gives a tangible weapon to drive back the Daemon Gods - faith in the Emperor. This isn't a question of right or wrong, it's just a 40K reality.

The real question is whether the way that humanity employs faith to unite itself and drive back Chaos is the optimum way. I would say not. It's too superstitious and frightened (as you've said), and so even though it forms a brilliant weapon against Chaos when it works, when it fails it fails terribly.

You are correct, I feel, that someone with no faith or concept in the divine (or desire to worship) would be more hesitant to start worship a god, even when faced with that god's power. Even Horus and the other Primarchs didn't worship to start with, they just made agreements and accepted power offered to him (with the exception of Lorgar of course).

An Imperial citizen in the contemporary imagery who falls to Chaos would employ worship as a starting point rather than an end point, because, as you say, Imperial citizens are no completely subsumed by paranoid and thoughtless religiousity. But still, and Imperial citizen armed with absolute and passionate faith in the Might and Grace of the Emperor would stand a better chance of surviving a daemonic attack than a pre-heresy completely atheistic and empiricist soldier armed with a lasgun. The Emperor Protects and all that . ;)


As predicted by the Cabal, a Horus win would have resulted in humanity blowing itself out, possibly to the point where the Craftworld Eldar, or some emergent race could have smuffed them out. So far better than they remain, in a hopeless, drudge of existnce, quite innocuously feeding the gods with their despair, hatred, spite, bigotry, petty scheming

Absolutely.

Just to pick up on your point about humanity empowering the Chaos Gods with its despair, hatred, spite, bigotry, petty scheming, I agree that this is a fault of the Imperial system and the Imperial Cult. This is, however, a different point from saying that a lack of faith in the Emperor leads humanity to be better protected than faith in him. I think it's a fault of the structure of the Imperial system and religion rather than the faith itself.

If the Emperor had never been killed (effectively), and if he had succeeded in mastering the Webway for human use, separating humanity from direct contact with the warp. If he had also managed to settle the psyker question and really put instituions in place to guide, help and wehere necessary control them as humanity evolved into a psychic species, then perhaps faith in him and knowledge of Chaos in terms of 'gods' and 'daemons' would be irrelevant. But he was killed and all these plans fell through.

In the absence of the Emperor's physical presence to guide humanity, the Emperor could best guide humanity from beyond the veil, as it were, as a nascent and/or actual Warp entity/deity. But even as powerful as he was, his soul would have been no match for the Chaos Powers. But if all the quadrillions upon quadrillions of humans of the Imperium worshipped him, had faith in him as a deity and dedicated their lives and souls to him (as Chaos worshippers do their gods), then this would empower the Emperor to me a major player in the Warp. So after he died faith in the Emperor was the least worst choice given the reality of Chaos. The problem, as I see it, was in the nature of the Imperial cult and the Golden Throne. Tpgether, these two restrict the Emperor becoming released fully into the Warp truly personified as a deity.

So the Imperial religion and the Golden Throne life support properties are not the metaphysical hydro-electric plant for the Emperor to become powerful and personified once more, it is a cracking dam with water that is slowly stagnating.


Chaos works far better with something to push against - an all out win for Chaos would be boring, and the Gods thrive on the sport (which is why the pull their favour from Champions at key moments...) almost certain in the knowledge that they'll survive even if their forces take a smashing this day.

Indeed so, but this isn't just 'sport'. Chaos requires endless processes and feelings, not an ultimate success one way or another. It wants the anger, despiar etc to continue, not reach a peak and self-annihilate. So in that sense the Imperium as it is serves the long-term goals (such as they are) of Chaos.


In the duel between Horus and the Emperor, Horus kicked the Emperor's ass while E struggled with the dire emotional issues of killing of his favourite baby boy, but when the E unleashed his 'unstoppable psychic attack' atfter taking an incapacitating beating, the Chaos Gods 'withdrew thier favour' from Horus, supposedly because they were scared of the Enperor's attack. That's just BS, no matter how string the E is, I doubtr he could even hurt the actual warp entities of the Gods through a proxy.

I think you're right.

The Emperor as he was couldn't rival the titanic forces that is even ONE Chaos god, let alone all four. They withdrew support from Horus for other reasons than fear of their own destruction. He had served how purpose. The Emperor was undone, physically and emotionally. The Imperium in tatters. If Horus had killed the Emperor outright then I'm sure Chaos would have kept him on bpard for a while longer, but Horus didn't so... meh... drop one pawn that used to be very useful and find a trillion other lesser pawns over the next 10,000 years instead.


seems to me that GW is recolouring a lot of old fluff, and seems to be hinting at a paradigm shift to takle place in M42 ...{snip}...My hard hearted business head says they won't do it, till sales of 40k minatures go down the tubes, but I'd LOVE to see it. The final darkness of the Imperium, and the hope that comes after...theres got to be hope. Right?

Where there's life there's hope.

Although, as my dear departed grandfather said to some RAF chaps after he escaped from a Siberian gulag and fled to Iran, "hope itself is fear"...

Lexington
13-03-2008, 14:06
A lot of folks seem to be quite annoyed at the continuing characterisation of the Traitor Legions, from Horus' being duped quite easily, to Fulgrim getting posessed etc. etc.

I disagree, I think that the characterisation is pretty damned good, and makes sense with the characters involved. Let's remember that however nuch you may love your image of Chaos as the spiky bikers who stuck a middle finger up to the establishment, raped some virgins and drunk from their skulls, that just won't cut it for corrupting the most noble and powerful creatures in the galaxy.
See, there's my beef - the way that they've been corrupted robs them of their nobility and power. Things were, the Primarchs fell for reasons of their own, because of pride or arrogance or ideals. Chaos offered them something to worship, something to give them power, or a simple anarchic brutality that the Emperor wouldn't allow. It was a great struggle, and the Primarchs were enormously powerful creatures of myth.

Now, though? Well, not so much. They were all tricked, y'see. Or possessed. Or cajoled and manipulated by advisers or secret cabals or breakfast cereal companies. It's a bad story, and for the life of me, I can't see why these droll retcons of what used to be wonderful fluff get so much praise from the community at large.

MvS
13-03-2008, 14:56
I can't see why these droll retcons of what used to be wonderful fluff get so much praise from the community at large.
You're not alone.

Lastie
13-03-2008, 16:21
It's a bad story, and for the life of me, I can't see why these droll retcons of what used to be wonderful fluff get so much praise from the community at large.

I third that.

Hell, I'll be the first to admit that my ongoing parody script Primarchs is a thinly disguised 'WTF?' in the direction of this barrage of retcons GW have unleashed upon us. The amount of material Legion alone has provided me should keep it going for another 80-odd chapters. :D

Harbinger
13-03-2008, 16:30
You're not alone.

I concur as well.

MvS
13-03-2008, 16:55
Well it's fine that there are otherplayers in the stories who have helped the traitor Primarchs along with their 'heresy', but I think it's a bit sad that hey seem to be more major players than the Primarchs in terms of the decision making. I have particular hesitations over the entire heresy being the brainchild of the Word Bearers, and not even their Primarch but one of its Captains, whatever his name is (I forget).

Supremearchmarshal
13-03-2008, 17:02
See, there's my beef - the way that they've been corrupted robs them of their nobility and power. Things were, the Primarchs fell for reasons of their own, because of pride or arrogance or ideals. Chaos offered them something to worship, something to give them power, or a simple anarchic brutality that the Emperor wouldn't allow. It was a great struggle, and the Primarchs were enormously powerful creatures of myth.

Now, though? Well, not so much. They were all tricked, y'see. Or possessed. Or cajoled and manipulated by advisers or secret cabals or breakfast cereal companies. It's a bad story, and for the life of me, I can't see why these droll retcons of what used to be wonderful fluff get so much praise from the community at large.

I mostly agree. One or two tragic Primarchs is ok IMO (and Alpharius is a good candidate for this role), but having every single one of them (except Angron) a victim of what you mentioned above indeed does detract from the epic feel of the earlier background.

Lexington
13-03-2008, 18:31
Well it's fine that there are otherplayers in the stories who have helped the traitor Primarchs along with their 'heresy', but I think it's a bit sad that hey seem to be more major players than the Primarchs in terms of the decision making. I have particular hesitations over the entire heresy being the brainchild of the Word Bearers, and not even their Primarch but one of its Captains, whatever his name is (I forget).
"Kor Phaeron," and you're quite right. As a Word-Bearing type of Chaos player, this is the retcon that annoys me most. There was a single line in the 2nd Edition Chaos Codex that has always summed up the WB's and their rebellion to me, which went something like this - "What people needed, Lorgar argued, was religious guidance in order to make sense of an otherwise pointless existence."

Now, that's hardly Great Philosophy (don't tell the Straussians), but it's a working argument for theocratic authoritarianism, and seems like a good place to start from. Now, though, we find out that Lorgar didn't really rebel due to any strong beliefs, but because he was a sop-head with daddy issues, and had a lieutenant who saw a way to get power out of it. This is where the Horus Heresy, the 40K universe's not-so-veiled Lucifer's Rebellion comes from? Feh on that.

BrainFireBob
13-03-2008, 19:47
I blame people not being well-read, Lexington. They praise the ideas that are new to them, instead of realizing that they're incredibly hackneyed in literature, and the the original version was mythologically inspired and had the most originality- not that that says much- of anything GW produced.

Londinium
13-03-2008, 21:18
I don't buy this backlash against the characterisation of the Primarch's falls, their previous falls smacked of no more than arrogance and petulance not nobility and honour, especially in the case of Alpharius who was portrayed as falling because daddy didn't like him and big brother Roboute was a bully and wouldn't listen to his 'revolutionary battle plans', the retcon is far better than him simply being the disgruntled youngest child, I do however hope that both Alpharius and Omegon die on Eskrador, as Alpharius' death to prove a point is as striking as Konrad's on Tsaguasla (sp).

Likewise in old fluff, Fulgrim was turned during a meeting with Horus after commiting close to two centuries of his life to the Imperium and persuing this goal with a fanatic zeal that is reminiscent of the Black Templars of 40k, for this zeal to dissapear within one meeting with Horus, in a situation where Fulgrim is so fuming that he risked life and limb to get to Isstvan first is hard to accept to say the least. The new version of Fulgrim is infinately better, it's a creeping lurking suffocation of Fulgrim's character, that occurs over a period of time slowly affecting him based on known character flaws in him. Fulgrim's quest for perfection was never perfection for perfection's sake, it was driven deep down by a sense that he had to prove himself and his legion, it was nearly destroyed at creation and it couldn't even mount it's own campaigns for the first few decades of it's creation (uniquely amongst the legions) and was far behind the other legions in the sense of making a name for itself and winning famous victories.

This created a feeling within Fulgrim of inadequacy and a need to prove himself, now he couldn't match the total of victories of other legions, but in the style and manner of his victories he could make a name for himself and the Legion, so his quest for ever greater perfection and constantly pushing his legion was always a result of trying to make up for lost time, his feelings deep within of inadequacy and of being lesser than his brothers make him the ideal candidate to be corrupted unknowingly by something that is seemingly giving him all the tools to prove the Children's worth not only to himself but to the Imperium and which also plays upon his insecurities.

Even at his point of turning, it took lies and the use of the Lectitio Divinatus out of context to gain his agreement, and even at this point he was still rather uncertain about the whole affair and eventually repented when about to kill Manus, and was so full of grief and disgrace wanted to kill himself. That is noble, not oh Slaneesh has promised to give me everything I want, isn't that just swell, I'm going to turn, especially for someone who in the old fluff had no problems whatsoever with the Emperor unlike other Primarches, and doesn't even in the new fluff until the Lectitio Divinatus incident, aside from thoughts Horus plants in his head about a lack of respect for the Primarches, playing off Fulgrim's insecurities, which the daemon exacerbates, but even this doesn't take hold and Fulgrim rejects it before 'Divinatusgate' :p

It's a much more three dimensional and better account than simply 'Oh Horus gave a great speech, and Slaneesh told me that only through her could I achieve perfection, despite my total zeal and indoctrination in the ethos of the Imperium over the past two centuries and my utter abhorrance of anything non human, which I convenientially forgot at this very moment'.

Likewise most of the rest of the Primarches are being given reasons other than just, oooh I feel like being evil today:

Corrupted Primarches
Horus
Fulgrim

Tricked Primarches
Mortarion (By Typhus to fall to Nurgle, although he had gone traitor before for sketchy reasons)
Magnus (By Tzeentch, or Betrayed by the Emperor if you want)

'Ooh I feel like being evil today' or 'Noble' Primarches
Perturabo
Angron
Lorgar

'Renegade' Primarches
Night Haunter
Alpharius

It's a much more three dimenional fleshed out and varied story of the Heresy than was previously portrayed and takes more from the Greek mythology concept of flawed heroes, than simple good and evil.

Sabbad
13-03-2008, 22:43
Surely the fact that the Alpha Legion supports Chaos-summoning Cults, allows daemons to possess them and incorporate Daemon Princes in the upper hierarchy PROVES they now worship Chaos?

Pandion40
13-03-2008, 23:10
Surely the fact that the Alpha Legion supports Chaos-summoning Cults, allows daemons to possess them and incorporate Daemon Princes in the upper hierarchy PROVES they now worship Chaos?

No because all that was written before Legion came out. GW changes the Background constantly so we won't know how much of the old Background is still valid until more is written.

Even if it is still valid it is easily explained by saying the AL recruit some real Chaos worshipers as cover

Wazzahamma
13-03-2008, 23:16
Or that they use chaos as a tool.

Or that they believe they use chaos as a tool...

rev
14-03-2008, 09:54
my only problem with legion, is that a human manages to wound a primarch in a sword fight.

The Judge
14-03-2008, 10:11
Yeah, but have you read the description of that guy? Chayne is the ultimate badass.

On the subject of the Alpha Legion using Chaos/being corrupted, I don't think the book changes anything. They want to destroy the Imperium, now as they did back in the Heresy, and they will use ANY tools. Chaos happens to be the best one...

rev
14-03-2008, 10:32
Yeah, but have you read the description of that guy? Chayne is the ultimate badass.



Yeh, but I was under the impression that there was ultimate badass, then there were primarchs. different leagues in my head!

rev

Wazzahamma
14-03-2008, 11:00
Well, the Emperor himself seemed to believe a human assassin was capable of killing Konrad Curze...

The Judge
14-03-2008, 11:04
The Emperor himself was nearly strangled by an Ork... these guys aren't untouchable.

MvS
14-03-2008, 12:10
I don't buy this backlash against the characterisation of the Primarch's falls, their previous falls smacked of no more than arrogance and petulance not nobility and honour, especially in the case of Alpharius who was portrayed as falling because daddy didn't like him and big brother Roboute was a bully and wouldn't listen to his 'revolutionary battle plans', the retcon is far better than him simply being the disgruntled youngest child, I do however hope that both Alpharius and Omegon die on Eskrador, as Alpharius' death to prove a point is as striking as Konrad's on Tsaguasla (sp).

But this is an extreme charaterisation. I think what the 'backlash' represents is that it's more interesting to have a mix of personal failings in the Primarchs and the Chaos influence. But Chaos shouldn't be just a contamination or 'magic badness', it should be seen as something that fans the embers of our failings and makes them more extreme.

As for Fulgrim, yes the old imagery with him getting won over by a nice little soiree with Horus was unbelievable, but then having him corupted by a talking sword then possessed isn't the most imaginative fall either.

I would have preferred a storyline that slowly exposed to Fulgrim the folly and even danger of zealously pursiung a notion like perfection. You will always fall short and so you will always have doubts in yourself for falling short. His corruption could have been more subtle and didn't need to begin only when he picks up a Chaos Tainted sword. His doubts and growing (and secret) desperation to be perfect could draw him towards Chaos himself. Perhaps instead of finding maiden worlds he could have found the remains of pre-fall Eldar cities and got drawn in by their mind-blowingly complex and beautiful, but also indulgent and decadent architecture or whatever.

I liked his failure with his artistic works. That was a very interesting touch. I think they could have gone a bit more Dorian Grey with that narrative, and shown his growing doubt and corruption in the painting he saw as somewhat lacking, only becoming perfect, beautiful and tragic when he sells his soul to its perfection - an analogy of selling his soul to Slaanesh and how his soul would then be trapped forever, etc, etc.

Spacker
14-03-2008, 12:26
my only problem with legion, is that a human manages to wound a primarch in a sword fight.

A nod back to the old story of David and Goliath perhaps? ;)

MvS
14-03-2008, 12:48
The wounding was a very minor wounding, to be fair.

It could have more to do with the fact that the Primarch completely underestimated the human and so wasn't eally trying, and the human was the most highly talented, trained and skilled that a human could possibily be before getting into the realms of post-human genetic engineering.

I remember that as soon as the Lucifer Black showed just how amazing he was (for a human) by wounding the Primarch, the Primarch then splits him in two in a heartbeat.

Icarus
15-03-2008, 05:05
Finished it tonight, and was really liking it up to the last couple of chapters, at which point i just had to go "oh ffs". Abnett's getting better, but he still seriously fails at developing well-thought out characters or a well executed plot-twist.

The whole "join Horus to save the galaxy bit" just didn't make much sense. I can't believe that Alpharius/Omegon are *so* dedicated to the idea of fighting Chaos that they'd sacrifice the whole of humanity and everything they supposedly believe in. They'd said several times earlier in the book how they believe in survival, diversity and maintaining the status quo over a utopian ideal that cannot be realised. But in spite of this, the most creative, free-thinking, individualistic Space Marine Legion decide to become involved in a dodgy-sounding alien conspiracy, in the space of a single paragraph! It was just a huge let-down. I can only hope that in a future story we see them trying to forge a third path, where humanity survives, because the idea of the Alpha Legion destroying humanity to save a bunch of aliens they shouldn't even care about just seems ridiculous.

Ranting aside, it was a pretty good book though. The twins thing was nice, simpler than what I thought was going to happen which was that Omegon was a clone or exceptional double, but it raises interesting questions about what Alpharius really is. Seeing the way the Legion operates, its Machievellian approach to warfare, was a real treat. The section on Nurth was on the whole very well done. I just think the final premise was way too hackneyed. I can see what they were going for, reinforcing the Alpha Legion's status as traitors rather than Chaos-worshippers, which is has always been a big part of their appeal for me. But it just didn't work, it was far too convenient and not at all believable. Bit of a shame really.

Sabbad
15-03-2008, 11:56
I partly agree with you Icarus - the idea that the Alpha Legion would be happy to sacrifice their whole species just so that filthy xenos are freed from Chaos and can live happily ever after is a bit of a push. However, it IS something that the Emperor would be happy to do and Alpharius is 100% loyal to the Emperor. So I consider it justifiable, if a little dodgy.

Captain Stern
15-03-2008, 12:47
I don't buy this backlash against the characterisation of the Primarch's falls, their previous falls smacked of no more than arrogance and petulance not nobility and honour, especially in the case of Alpharius who was portrayed as falling because daddy didn't like him and big brother Roboute was a bully and wouldn't listen to his 'revolutionary battle plans', the retcon is far better than him simply being the disgruntled youngest child, I do however hope that both Alpharius and Omegon die on Eskrador, as Alpharius' death to prove a point is as striking as Konrad's on Tsaguasla (sp).

Likewise in old fluff, Fulgrim was turned during a meeting with Horus after commiting close to two centuries of his life to the Imperium and persuing this goal with a fanatic zeal that is reminiscent of the Black Templars of 40k, for this zeal to dissapear within one meeting with Horus, in a situation where Fulgrim is so fuming that he risked life and limb to get to Isstvan first is hard to accept to say the least. The new version of Fulgrim is infinately better, it's a creeping lurking suffocation of Fulgrim's character, that occurs over a period of time slowly affecting him based on known character flaws in him. Fulgrim's quest for perfection was never perfection for perfection's sake, it was driven deep down by a sense that he had to prove himself and his legion, it was nearly destroyed at creation and it couldn't even mount it's own campaigns for the first few decades of it's creation (uniquely amongst the legions) and was far behind the other legions in the sense of making a name for itself and winning famous victories.

This created a feeling within Fulgrim of inadequacy and a need to prove himself, now he couldn't match the total of victories of other legions, but in the style and manner of his victories he could make a name for himself and the Legion, so his quest for ever greater perfection and constantly pushing his legion was always a result of trying to make up for lost time, his feelings deep within of inadequacy and of being lesser than his brothers make him the ideal candidate to be corrupted unknowingly by something that is seemingly giving him all the tools to prove the Children's worth not only to himself but to the Imperium and which also plays upon his insecurities.

Even at his point of turning, it took lies and the use of the Lectitio Divinatus out of context to gain his agreement, and even at this point he was still rather uncertain about the whole affair and eventually repented when about to kill Manus, and was so full of grief and disgrace wanted to kill himself. That is noble, not oh Slaneesh has promised to give me everything I want, isn't that just swell, I'm going to turn, especially for someone who in the old fluff had no problems whatsoever with the Emperor unlike other Primarches, and doesn't even in the new fluff until the Lectitio Divinatus incident, aside from thoughts Horus plants in his head about a lack of respect for the Primarches, playing off Fulgrim's insecurities, which the daemon exacerbates, but even this doesn't take hold and Fulgrim rejects it before 'Divinatusgate' :p

It's a much more three dimensional and better account than simply 'Oh Horus gave a great speech, and Slaneesh told me that only through her could I achieve perfection, despite my total zeal and indoctrination in the ethos of the Imperium over the past two centuries and my utter abhorrance of anything non human, which I convenientially forgot at this very moment'.

Likewise most of the rest of the Primarches are being given reasons other than just, oooh I feel like being evil today:

Corrupted Primarches
Horus
Fulgrim

Tricked Primarches
Mortarion (By Typhus to fall to Nurgle, although he had gone traitor before for sketchy reasons)
Magnus (By Tzeentch, or Betrayed by the Emperor if you want)

'Ooh I feel like being evil today' or 'Noble' Primarches
Perturabo
Angron
Lorgar

'Renegade' Primarches
Night Haunter
Alpharius

It's a much more three dimenional fleshed out and varied story of the Heresy than was previously portrayed and takes more from the Greek mythology concept of flawed heroes, than simple good and evil.


I don't think he's talking about the Index Astartes versions when he refers to the 'original version'. Indeed, the novels adhere very closely to the crap that were the Index Astartes Articles. The original version would be 2nd ed and 1st ed stuff where, for example: Mortarion 'believed he was the herald of a new age of justice'; Angron 'genuinely thought that he alone could save humanity from destruction'. Hrous 'too, the greatest primarch of them all, was convinced of the virtue of the martial ideals for which he fought'.

Leaving Horus out of it, how are the Angron and Mortarion of the novels (and their falls from grace) more mature, better e.t.c. than the old - especially in the case of Angron (who's just a charicature now)?

By the way, much of what you wrote about Fulgrim isn't in the original. It never went into as much detail as that.

Icarus
15-03-2008, 13:20
I partly agree with you Icarus - the idea that the Alpha Legion would be happy to sacrifice their whole species just so that filthy xenos are freed from Chaos and can live happily ever after is a bit of a push. However, it IS something that the Emperor would be happy to do and Alpharius is 100% loyal to the Emperor. So I consider it justifiable, if a little dodgy.

The thing is I'm not convinced that it *is* something the Emperor would want. Yes, he is utterly dedicated to the destruction of Chaos, but the only thing that drives him more I believe is the survival and prosperity of humanity. He's been working to better the lot of the human race for millenia, so I'm not convinced that he would accept it's destruction, he would try and his massive intellect to find a way out. The loyal Alpharius (a concept which I do quite like) would surely know that, as well as believe it himself.

Tyron
15-03-2008, 15:31
Agreed, throughout the whole of the 40K background the Emperor dedicated himself for the survival on the human race not it's extinction so I don't understand where people are asserting these false claims.

Also I would like to touch on the Chaos Gods retracting their power from Horus. The Emperor used his power to not only kill Horus but to obliterate his soul. The power they invested in Horus (which would have been immense) would have been lost and it was too much a price for them.

Think of Horus as a glass cup, the water poured into it is the power of Chaos. The Emperor is a house transcending onto it. Obviously the water and glass will be utter destroyed beyond repair.

Londinium
15-03-2008, 16:02
I don't think he's talking about the Index
By the way, much of what you wrote about Fulgrim isn't in the original. It never went into as much detail as that.

The stuff about Fulgrim being dedicted to perfection as means of making up for the legions initial disaster, racing across the galaxy and being the first to arrive at Isstvan while still loyal rather than the conspiracy, being corrupted by Horus/Slaneesh during a meeting in the Isstvan system ?

Thats pretty much all I said, and thats pretty much all the IA said, which is pretty damn old itself nowadays, I don't recall ever seeing much about Fulgrim's fall in 2nd ed, the IA is the oldest I can remember about it.

Captain Stern
15-03-2008, 16:06
The thing is I'm not convinced that it *is* something the Emperor would want. Yes, he is utterly dedicated to the destruction of Chaos, but the only thing that drives him more I believe is the survival and prosperity of humanity. He's been working to better the lot of the human race for millenia, so I'm not convinced that he would accept it's destruction, he would try and his massive intellect to find a way out. The loyal Alpharius (a concept which I do quite like) would surely know that, as well as believe it himself.

I agree. If Alpharius' intention was to be utterly loyal to the Emperor then he'd go and ask THE SOURCE directly what he wanted after telling him all that had transpired with the Cabal. The ending just doesn't make sense. It's yet another oversimplistic and unsatisfactory explanation for the 'fall' (there must be a better word we can use?) of one of the primarchs: Horus 'falls' after one pathetic manipulation dream (and is a pantomime villain by the 3rd book); Fulgrim is possessed by a daemon (urgh...); and Alpharius goes on a spirit walk with a bunch of aliens and accepts what he sees as the truth despite humanity's long history with, and attitude to, manipulative aliens.

Is there a single primarch with even an ounce of skepticism in any of these novels?

Tyron
15-03-2008, 16:08
Also the scene where he beheads Ferrus Manus, which many fans find hard to believe.

Londinium
15-03-2008, 16:15
Is there a single primarch with even an ounce of skepticism in any of these novels?

The Lion ? Night Haunter definitely will do whenever he gets a full book, he couldn't really give a toss about Horus' propaganda, Corax perhaps, he always seems to be tinged with more than a little darkness despite being totally loyal.

I do fully agree about Alpharius though, I mentioned it pages ago in my first thoughts on the book, it makes no sense whatsoever that a legion that is totally dedicated to the protection and furtherance of the human race and persues that cause with zeal, would suddenly decide to collude in the destruction of the entire race simply to save the universe from Chaos, it makes no sense, it's simply not in their psyche no matter how persusive a vision, at the very least Alpharius would at least question it.


Also the scene where he beheads Ferrus Manus, which many fans find hard to believe.

Why can't a daemonically possessed Primarch (a very powerful daemon I might add) kill another Primarch ? an assasin killed Konrad Curze, Fulgrim mortally wounded Guilliman, Guilliman killed Alpharius (lets not get into that), Konrad kicked the hell out of Dorn, Horus killed Sanguinius. It's not like the Primarches are invincible, especially to their own kind.

And besides if you go to battle wielding a spanner your just asking for it :P

Icarus
15-03-2008, 16:15
Is there a single primarch with even an ounce of skepticism in any of these novels?

Exactly! And if there were to be just one, it would be Alpharius!

Captain Stern
15-03-2008, 16:24
Londinium: an assasin killed Konrad Curze

While I've never been happy with that piece of the background I must come to its defense and say that he 'let' the assassin kill him (although the writers could have made that clearer over the years). If the assassins sent had been given some special tool/device by the Emperor maybe... meh. I'd still not be keen on it.

Chainsworded Codpiece
15-03-2008, 16:30
The whole "join Horus to save the galaxy bit" just didn't make much sense. I can't believe that Alpharius/Omegon are *so* dedicated to the idea of fighting Chaos that they'd sacrifice the whole of humanity and everything they supposedly believe in...<snip> But in spite of this, the most creative, free-thinking, individualistic Space Marine Legion decide to become involved in a dodgy-sounding alien conspiracy, in the space of a single paragraph! It was just a huge let-down. I can only hope that in a future story we see them trying to forge a third path...<snip>....it just didn't work, it was far too convenient and not at all believable. Bit of a shame really.

Icarus, your comments got me wondering...

I also find that I am upset (shocked, usually) at the speed at which Abnett's writing suddenly veers from "good" to "What the hell?" in the space of, well, no time at all. Good ideas, or at least well-executed, interesting new twists on old ideas, suddenly get sort of "chopped" and aren't followed through. Or worse yet, they just get "Wrapped up" at the end of a volume, as if somehow it's perfectly o.k. for all that build-up to be decided by a mere paragraph of exposition!

I think...and correct me if anyone knows better...that Mr. Abnett's works may be much longer and more involved than what we actually see.

And that he is cut up, or at least editorially pressured to, "Wrap up the project before it goes over the 400-page mark, Abnett; we h'ain't paying yer for Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire, yeah?"

Am I wrong, or is Alan Merret the Chief Editor/Big Boss of the Black Library?

And we've all seen his preferred treatment of vast epics, in the HH Artbooks. Very brief, get-to-the-point, make-the-impression, then leave for the next big thing stuff. Very necessary, when printing fluff on cards.

Not so fun when writing books. But he may take a dim view to Abnett's lengthier work. And he gets line-item veto power, no?

Lastie
15-03-2008, 16:49
Not so fun when writing books. But he may take a dim view to Abnett's lengthier work. And he gets line-item veto power, no?

Presumably, yes. Although Legion is pretty much built on a veritable list of 'twists' and 'reveals' he green-lighted (and one he apparently suggested that Dan Abnett never thought of, if you fancy taking a guess which one it was ...), so collectively both Mr. Merrett and Mr. Abnett are equally to blame/to praise (delete as appropriate) for Legion.

Sabbad
15-03-2008, 17:11
for example: Mortarion 'believed he was the herald of a new age of justice'

This is explicitly stated to be the case in the Death Guard Index Astartes. There has been nothing to contradict this in the HH series.


Angron 'genuinely thought that he alone could save humanity from destruction'.

The Index Astartes series is pretty vague on Angron's fall (pretty much "he had a chat with Horus), but there is nothing to contradict this in the HH series. The conversation with Kharn in Galaxy in Flames suggests this remains an important catalyst for Angron's fall.


Leaving Horus out of it, how are the Angron and Mortarion of the novels (and their falls from grace) more mature, better e.t.c. than the old - especially in the case of Angron (who's just a charicature now)?

Angron and Mortarion have only had bit parts, of course their characters don't look as developed.

You see Angron three times in the HH series - once on the battlefield in False Gods, once in a meeting with Horus/Mortarion/Eidelon in Galaxy in Flames (where he comes across, perfectly appropriately, as an angry, angry warrior) and once on the battlefield in Galaxy in Flames. Would you prefer he took time-out in one of those scenes to explain "Oh, by the way, I'm splitting your head open with my axe because I genuinely think that I alone can save humanity from destruction"?

Give the series time before you criticise characters that they've barely got round to covering yet. Feel free to grumble about Fulgrim, for instance.

Chainsworded Codpiece
15-03-2008, 17:19
... so collectively both Mr. Merrett and Mr. Abnett are equally to blame/to praise (delete as appropriate) for Legion.

Well...hmmm.

I guess I've just gotta keep perspective. Can't expect that, just becuase I like some of his stuff, it's always going to be good.

Witness: Traitor General (uneven and ultimately disappointing) versus Armor of Contempt (obvious rip-off of a million "real" war stories, but still very, very satisfying). Same guy, same genre, same set of characters, different reactions.

Despite the serious possibility of having regrets, I'll actually buy Legion to read it. At the very least, it will have cool terms to use/rip off for Dark Heresy.

Unlike the other BL authors working on the Horus Heresy Series, Abnett only very rarely makes me feel like I just got..."chainsworded in the codpiece".

PS- Any word whether Matthew Farrar(sp?) of the Shira Calpurnia series will ever write for the Heresy? I only read Blind, but it wasn't terrible 'til the Psyker-ex-machina ending...

Tyron
15-03-2008, 18:34
@Londinium

The fluff on the incident is very vague on what really happened. It confirms Fulgrim brought back the severed head of Ferrus Manus as a sign of his alligence to Horus.

Yes he was possessed however where was the assertion he became more powerful? As far as the story informs us when he couldn't do the deed the deamon took over.

Like some of the others have voiced, the original HH was quite a good story until different writers came in took it to pieces and destroyed it.

Londinium
16-03-2008, 17:45
@Londinium

The fluff on the incident is very vague on what really happened. It confirms Fulgrim brought back the severed head of Ferrus Manus as a sign of his alligence to Horus.

Yes he was possessed however where was the assertion he became more powerful? As far as the story informs us when he couldn't do the deed the deamon took over.

Like some of the others have voiced, the original HH was quite a good story until different writers came in took it to pieces and destroyed it.

Have you read Fulgrim ? he takes Manus' head clean off his shoulders..it's not exactly vague and the initial decision to do so was Fulgrim's himself, he had yet to be posessed: 'Fulgrim's Blade seemed to move with a life of it's own, but it had no need of such impellents, for he swung the blade of his own volition.'

At the point of execution he can't bring himself to do it, but the chaos around him and the daemon screaming at him to do it, along with his confused mental and emotional state makes him crack and he delivers the killing blow. Immediately after he realises what he has done and is beset with grief and a disgust at what he has done, he wants to commit suicide and the daemon tricks him into believing that it will deliver it for him, if he lowers his defences, he allows the daemon into him and it renages on their deal, possessing his body and taking control.

How does it make him more powerful ? a Primarch possessed by what has to be a very old and strong daemon is like combining the two entities, of course it makes him more powerful, it's the best of both worlds, material and immaterial.

The original HH was barely a story, it was a vague sequence of events with little explanation of them, the reason why people have reacted against the HH series, is everyone has their own perception of the Heresy and how the story should be told, precisely because the lack of depth and clarification initially allowed divergent views and ideas on the story to develop over time. Even the IA's didn't exactly paint a great picture of the Heresy for some legions, although they were better than the patches that came before them.

I'm not going to say I like all the new Heresy fluff (the AL's fall springs to mind as something I can't accept) but it's a lot better than the old story.

=Angel=
16-03-2008, 21:52
Does that make sense?

No. No it doesn't.
I really have a problem with a Primarch deciding that it's s good idea to destroy all of humanity to defeat chaos: Saving the galaxy for the xenos?
The Xenos they've been wiping out the whole great crusade?

(Golden throne, 30th millenium. The assembled traitor primarchs stand in a circle with plasmaguns and daemon weapons pointed at the Emperor.

Alpharius kneels and whispers his reasons for his actions. )

Emperor: Ah yes, capital idea. Now humanity will fulfill its ultimate purpose in destroying chaos once and for all, leaving the galaxy a safe and happy place for mankind...oh right. They'll all be dead. the Orks? Hmm... they'd probably be happier with an an extra enemy. As it is we're removing two...

The Eldar then? I fear they won't last long in a galaxy full of orks and no warp storms.... Alpharius, did you think this through?

(The throne room is filled with sounds of plasmafire and hacking as the Traitors quickly silence any more attempts to point out the gross stupidity of Alpharius' plan)


Alpharius is a primarch, part of the Emperor's plan to defeat chaos and xenos agressors so Mankind can inherit the galaxy- not the Emperor's plan to defeat humanity and chaos so Xenos aggressors can Inherit the galaxy. He really should have paid attention at the briefing... instead of sending a look-a-like marine to sit in his place, so's he could play hide and seek with his brother Omegon.

Fulgrim's Gimp
16-03-2008, 22:01
I think it is highly probable that the Alpha Legion may be in fact pursuing a third option. On the BL forum someone has gone through the various events and inconsistencies in the AL stories and suggested quite reasonably that Alpharius/Omegon doesn't follow the Cabal's dictates slavishly but may be following a path more in line with the Recongreator (sp?) faction of the Inquisition.

Typharius
18-03-2008, 02:25
1. The Cabal is a sort of council of the 'old kinds' - essentially, it seems to be a few of the remaining Old One races that survived to the present, much like what Gav Thorpe suggested on these forums so long ago, but on a lesser scale. They, it seems, took notice of mankind and recruited humans to their cause 'as long as there had been humans to recruit', because their farsight caused them to see that they would pay a pitiful part in the galaxy. They sought the Alpha Legion out to persuade them to join their cause, which I'll elaborate on later, because they were not blinded by the Imperial dogma like the other Legions, being the last founded.

What interests me of the Cabal is the revelations of the sheer amount of other species all of the understanding that mankind is the catalyst for chaos to succeed. The fact that Alpharius/Omegon had the insight and wisdom to hear them out despite there "xenosity" shows to me that he truly was loyal to the emperor, he merely wasn't bogged down with the zealous dogma of Guilliman or Dorn. (no offense to those Primarchs who I like very much)



2. Alpharius, primarch of the Alpha Legion has two bodies. One soul, two bodies, according to the Cabal. The other is named Omegon, rather unimaginatively. What this precisely means, I don't know. I presume that they were in the same pod; if they weren't then we have a missing primarch, but I doubt it. However, this does hint that Alpharius didn't die over at Eskrador. Not all of him, at least...

I think Alpharius/Omegon are indeed twins, two seperate entities identical in almost every possible way (100% identical even?) one reason I think this is how in the book it describes the way Alpharius stared into his twins eyes for a long time, well they stared into each others as if reading each others opinions on the dreadful information they had heard. For them to want each others council obviously suggests they are seperate beings.



3. The Alpha Legion was loyal to the Emperor. Or to his ideals, at least. Due to circumstances which I will elaborate on below, Alpharius/Omegon decided the best way to remain loyal to his ideals was to join the traitors. See below.

Indeed they were completely loyal to the Emperor and his ideals, however therein lay a fatal paradox as the Alpha legion also recognised the flaw in the emperors noble ideal: that a utopian society is an impossible dream and the only way to have peace is to maintain humanity recognising and preventing it's irrevocable flaws. With a heavy heart it seems to me the legion decided that even the death of there beloved Emperor would be worthwhile to fulfill his grandest vision: to see chaos eliminated for eternity.


4. The Cabal saw that the one way to defeat the Chaos gods (Primordial Annihilator, as the Cabal say) is to sacrifice humanity. The precise nature of why wasn't elaborated on, but a short vision of a galaxy with Horus ruling was shown. Horus, riven with self loathing and anger because he still had honour in the end. He felt guilt at his actions, and began to take out that guilt on others. Even his closest friends war with him. The human race will die within two or three generations. Chaos will burn brighter than ever in the final armageddon, before being extinguished as humanity brings the Chaos Gods down with them, and bringing down the Chaos Gods is the Emperor's highest priority. Humanity's sacrifice, in other words, saves the rest of the galaxy. We don't precisely know why that would happen, but perhaps it has something to do with 'overdosing' on humanity, neglecting other possible subjects, and not being able to sustain themselves afterwards, with the bulk of the emotional vibrancy in the galaxy gone; or perhaps Horus finds a way to take out vengeance on the gods - who knows? Just my thoughts. Of course, there's no way of verifying that would happen, or if the Cabal were just trying to manipulate Alpharius/Omegon into doing their bidding.

It seems to me that in his limitless self loathing, grief and rage Horus would see that he had corrupted and befouled humanity forever and the only way to atone for this, to change the fact of his being the betrayer of humanity is to annihilate it and his brothers and there legions. I expect he would have wanted to destroy himself int he process also. It seems clear to me that chaos would die in the end definitely because there would no longer be any rife human emotion for it to feed upon or be created from. Someone mentioned that it is silly that humanity is the catalyst for chaos or the cause for chaos and it's possible ender, but looking at all the other races in Warhammer 40k none of them have the insanely uncontrolled emotions of humanity. It also seems to me that the Cabal had no reason to manipulate Alpharius to destroy humanity for personal gains, in all other canon we can see that all eldar even when you the reader gain an insight into there mind know that humanity must die to prevent chaos and no other reason.


5. It also gives a view into the galaxy if Horus loses. Humanity stagnating, dying a slow death, with 'ten, twenty thousand years of misery and rot' to follow, until Chaos achieves ascendency. So that's the Cabal's prediction of the end of 40k within ten millennia - unless they found another plan, of course.


Personally I think the future of slow decay and rot leading to the eventual ascendancy of Chaos is the destiny of humanity, all predictions have pointed to the fact that the conclusion of the heresy war itself at the time of the emperors victory or destruction would therein pave the path for the galaxies ultimate destination.....thats why when I finished reading Legion I was quite dumbfounded and saddened by the fact that humanity does indeed seem doomed and the noble space marines and all there works are in vain.

chris.seraphim
18-03-2008, 10:17
Does anyone else notice that Eldrad's warning and the goal of the Cabal are contradictory? Anyone hazard an in-mythos reason why this should be so or should we just chalk it off to communication problems between the two authors?


THATS the interesting question!

Eldrad's (well established and reliable) foresight compelled him to warn the Enperor so that the Heresy would be fought off WITHOUT the destruction/corruption of the Imperium.
The Cabal's (not established, and somewhat speculative) foresight, compelled them to attempt to turn a loyal Legion into swayng the balance of the Heresy against the Loyalists.

So one (or both) prophesies is wrong, or tainted. Thats VERY interesting.

As a bit of an Eldar fan, I'm prone to favour Eldrad's prophesy that the Emperor's long term plan was the best hope for Galactic stability and the eventual containment (never say defeat) of Chaos, and protecting him and the ascendant Human Empire was the lesser of two evils.

The whole thing with the Cabal seems IMHO to be a very convoluted Tzeentchian plot to divide the dedicated and loyal servants of the Emperor.

IMHO this is backed up by both Horus' openly Chaotic vision, and Alpharius Omegon's 'acuity' being of essentially the same future - the actual end result of the Heresy with humanity turning inward and ignorant, and the Emperor revered as a God.

So the common thread seems that Chaos desired this future, and use it as a threat/slap in the face to turn loyalists onto their desired path.

It also seems that if the Cabal's vision is true, then the end result of the Heresy (whcih we know) means a long term win for Chaos, but we also have not factored in an old, and much favoured (by me at least) bit of fluff.

The Star Child.

If the story was to move forward, into the impending galactic armageddon and dissolution that is implied in the HH books, and also in the game setting of Chaos breaking out from the EoT, the Tau gathering steam, the Necrons waking up and mobilising and the Tyranids main fleet getting closer, and no doubt HUNGRIER - things look pretty bleak long term for the Imperium.

BUT, the death of the Emperor and his rebirth as the Star Child, with a new Imperium reborn on the real tenets of the Emperor (faith in humanity, rejection of Chaos) as opposed to the dogmatic, fearful, gothic society - could stem the tide.

And having a new civil war would be a cool plot device.

But it'll never happen, no matter how many times I write this. GW ain't listening.

---
As for the AL turning to Chaos. I have no doubt that some cells of the Legion would eventually turn, perhaps through frustration but I always liked the idea (for YEARS now, not just cause of Legion) that the AL were the not-chaotic rebel Legion. They joined Horus because they were genuinely dissatisfied with the progress/direction of the Imperium, and stayed true to that, which explains their NOT going into the Eye, but staying within the Impeirum to piece by piece take down the Empire they feel has staryed from the path. Insurgents, not heretics.
M41.999

=Angel=
18-03-2008, 23:28
Personally I think the future of slow decay and rot leading to the eventual ascendancy of Chaos is the destiny of humanity, .... humanity does indeed seem doomed and the noble space marines and all there works are in vain.

Huh...Guess I'll just stop playing 40k now. Seems kinda pointless... like Titanic the RPG :P

I think the cabal seems to have gotten its wires crossed. They figured Horus was likely to win anyhow, and wanted to tip the balance even more in his favour to make sure .
They seem to have underestimated the Emperor by a huuuuge margin.
Perhaps they underestimated his utopian goals too?

The reason that 'humans are special' in 30k is that they have the Emperor. He was formed by the self sacrifice of pre historic human shamans as their last hope to save humanity from Chaos.

No other race has a leader like him, that is why they fail. Not that he's all knowing or anything, but he represented the galaxy's best hope, not a conglomeration of bugeyed, tentacled, scum sucking aliens.

The eldar tried to stop chaos and failed miserably. Eldrad knew this. The orks don't have a hope, its all up to humanity.

Because we ARE the champions, my friend. Or were.. and will be when the Emperor gets up due to starchild or some other plot device.