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Mad Doc Grotsnik
19-02-2008, 19:44
Well, over the years, I've given poor Gav Thorpe a fair bit of knocking.

From the Eldar Codex, to the Blood Angels Codex, and all the other rulebooks he produced. Whether I felt he'd ruined the background, or whether he'd not quite got the list right, I had a pop at him all in the comforting anonymity of the Interwebs.

But, fair is fair, and right is right, so I would like it to be known I now take it all back.

And why? The new Vampire Counts Book. It's fantastic. My mate received his two spearheads yesterday, so I got my free copy of the book, and spent last night reading it from cover to cover. Gav (and the rest of the team involved) have produced a sterling effort.

Some might bemoan the lack of Bloodlines now, but they have handled it well. The Bloodlines were never really more than a side salad of flavour. To fully embrace the different ethos of each one, the book would run the risk of being extremely unwieldy, and to do a half arsed job would turn them into being 'Stinky Von Carstein, Sexy Von Carstein, Clanky Von Carstein and Gribbly Von Carstein' which would annoy us even more (well, I reckon it would) The Bloodline powers now give you the option of sticking with them, without limiting your army options. This is a nice bit of work. Fluff players can knock themselves out with self imposed limits, and the more casual gamer doesn't have to tie himself too closely to a theme.

So big props to Gav on this one. The list is full and varied, lots of different combinations, none of which seem to have an edge of the next.

And to the rest of the design team, keep up the good work. The books are working out rather nicely.

Except for Pete 'thankfully gone' Haines. For he is responsible for the Dwarf book, and for that, he shall sit in the corner wearing a white pointy cap with a great big 'D' on it for the rest of eternity....

W0lf
19-02-2008, 19:54
I sent him a mesage to say congrats on a superb book.

He replied saying he was happy to here feedback, what a great guy.

Ive always been a fan of his work tbh. I loved the eldar book and the VC is superbly done.

Wargamejunkie
19-02-2008, 21:40
Well, Mad Doc I think this is what sets the people with a legitimate issue with a book/game from those who will just complain.

Giving credit where credit is due.

I have yet to read the new Vampire but I have yet to hear anything bad.

theunwantedbeing
19-02-2008, 21:46
I'll agree with you when my mate has got his copy of the book and I've had a good read of it and not found anything that would be hideously abusive in it.
I'm still a tad annoyed at all the GW design lot for making such a mess of the dark elves.....lol

Zoolander
19-02-2008, 22:06
Doc, let me say first that I appreciate this post. We are often quick to criticize and slow to praise, so I applaud you for letting GW hear some good feedback.

Second, let me join you in praising this book. I read it, also, and found it to be one of the best fantasy books they have done. I love it. I love the new rules for the army. I love the combinations of powers, magic items, and troops you can field. It's fantastic!

sulla
19-02-2008, 23:19
I'll agree with you when my mate has got his copy of the book and I've had a good read of it and not found anything that would be hideously abusive in it.
I'm still a tad annoyed at all the GW design lot for making such a mess of the dark elves.....lol

Although, to be fair, the book is still a good read. The background in it is much better than the stuff in the previous book, the art is fantastic, the models were, and still are some of the best in the game. I think the problem was mainly that they just didnt know how to make elves work at the time without violating all the principles they had set themsleves(like steeds not being better than riders, no multiple attack rank n file etc). Now they understand these things a little better, I expect we will get a pretty good light infantry based force this year.

SuperBeast
20-02-2008, 00:37
I'm usually more defensive of GW than others, but even that aside, I have to say I think the VC book is damn good.

Whilst I can see the "ZOMG! Powerdice! ASF! BEARD!" arguments and accusations continuing for a while, this is firmly in the realms of unbeatable-new-army syndrome; especially as it'll take time for some VC generals to realise that VC's no longer need to spam units like there's no tomorrow to win.

I'm thoroughly looking forward to getting to grips with the army.

...and Doc, kudos on being an excellent example to warseer posters!

Angelwing
20-02-2008, 00:53
From the Eldar Codex, to the Blood Angels Codex, and all the other rulebooks he produced.
emboldening mine.
Don't agree with this bit. Gav wrote the first battle sister codex, which is superb!
However, agree with everything you say about the new VC book. great stuff. :)

Voss
20-02-2008, 00:56
I'm not sure that will die down anytime soon. There are a lot of fairly effective combos that don't really have 'counters'. They high elves got a lot of outcry, but they were still vulnerable to a lot of things- chariots, shooting, magic, psychology. That a lot of that isn't true for the terrors of the VC list. psychology is out entirely, shooting, chariots, and magic missiles are effectively countered by cheap and replaceable troops. You pretty much have to chew through entire undead units and shut down their replenishing magic. And they have a lot of fast and effective things to hunt down and destroy your wizards and other magic-blockers, while tying up your effective units with cheap zombie tarpits.

Admiral Samuel Eden
20-02-2008, 02:51
Its a great book and I am so glad for the lack of criticism, I was beginning to loose faith.

Urgat
20-02-2008, 12:57
Well, don't know much about the book, the only thing that made me raise an eyebrow was the fact you can't have a necromancer led army anymore, but in truth, I suppose you can make one out of the vampire powers. He will be a bit tough in hand to hand for a necro, but what the heck. The book does seem good, my only real concern is that it seems so easy to raise zombies, it means I'll have to buy more ><

astrochimp
20-02-2008, 13:46
Glad to hear about the VC book. My spearhead is scheduled to arrive
today and i'm bouncing in my seat waiting for it.

I was wondering about:



Except for Pete 'thankfully gone' Haines. For he is responsible for the Dwarf book, and for that, he shall sit in the corner wearing a white pointy cap with a great big 'D' on it for the rest of eternity....

I'm relatively new to the hobby (started with BFSP) and Dwarfs was
the first army I went with. What is bad about their Army book? I'm not saying it's a great book and I love it, but I have no frame of reference. Perhaps I should try to look at some older editions. Or if the topic is covered in an old thread, feel free to point me to it.

___

Hoping to be taking apart a new skeleton sprue this evening :):skull::)

Voodoo Boyz
20-02-2008, 14:15
Glad to hear about the VC book. My spearhead is scheduled to arrive
today and i'm bouncing in my seat waiting for it.

I was wondering about:



I'm relatively new to the hobby (started with BFSP) and Dwarfs was
the first army I went with. What is bad about their Army book? I'm not saying it's a great book and I love it, but I have no frame of reference. Perhaps I should try to look at some older editions. Or if the topic is covered in an old thread, feel free to point me to it.


To echo this, what exactly is so bad about the Dwarf Book besides Thorek? I can see revising the anvil so the missile spell doesn't reduce movement, but other than that it's not that good. Anvil+Gunlines and Thorek in general are what break the book, both are rectified by nerfing the hell out of Thorek, and removing the slow component to the missile spell.

UltimateNagash
20-02-2008, 16:28
The problems I know with it is that it's harder than charging a diamond wall with a toothpick...
I mean, a 1+ re-rollable armour save AND a 4+ ward save at T5... Er, yeah - good luck getting through that...

And when you say the Eldar did you mean the 3rd ed one. Cause Phil Kelly wrote the 4th ed one...


Oh, and yeah... I'm loving the VC book :) but then, what did you expect? :D

mistformsquirrel
21-02-2008, 07:45
Its nice to come back and see a positive discussion going... VC really aren't my thing; but I made the decision that I'm going to buy every army book (as I can) when they come out just to read. I've read my Chaos book back and forth at least a dozen times now.

I admit, I'm curious what's up with the dwarves though MDG? They're an army I'm interested in doing 'someday'; and just based off what I know of them, I'm kinda wondering what makes them so bad?

UltimateNagash
21-02-2008, 08:05
I just said - ridiculously hard characters, especially their stoopidly annoying King...

Jedi152
21-02-2008, 08:45
Is this thread anything except a "haha i'm friends with staff so i get free stuff" thread? :D

I don't get the 'broken books' thing. They all seem relatively balanced to me. But then i only play several times a year.

UltimateNagash
21-02-2008, 09:44
The only new books I don't like are because
a) SC too good (Karl Franz, Dwarf King bloke)
b) Too much of one thing (like in 40K, AssCannons too good and easy to get in Smurf armies)
c) Some stuff isn't useful. But in Fantasy you don't see this, I only see this in 40k. Weird how most of the problems are 40K, eh?

Lord Lucifer
21-02-2008, 10:53
Weird how most of the problems are 40K, eh?

Nope, Fantasy has been refined over 7 editions (plus a couple of 'editions' of Warhammer Ancient Battles for good measure), whereas 40K had an overhaul with 2nd ed, then another overhaul with 3rd ed, tweaked with 4th ed, and couple be changed more comprehensively with 5th.
It's hardly surprising that Fantasy has most of the bugs ironed out, whereas 40K, trying to new things a bit more frequently, gets to enjoy areas of rules overlap where designers hadn't anticipated a problem arising

Revlid
21-02-2008, 11:19
The Vampire Counts book is absolutely fantastic - it's a fitting last book for such a great games designer.

Gralph!?!
21-02-2008, 14:13
i have read through the army book as well. i am indeed happy with it. the army has lots of strength and will indeed prove to be a challange to fight against. which in the end is the whole reason for powerful options to me.

oh and shall we stop the whole "stupid dwarf book is stupid" comments shall we and continue with the topic.

Akroma
21-02-2008, 14:16
well, when i speak to some friends they agree with me that Gav was over the top with this new book, whereas his old books had a lack of innovation and balance, by having useless units and so on.
hopefully the fluff is good in the book, because i have the strong feeling the rules are broken again (but other way around). the lore master should write stories, because his feeling for gamebalance does not exist... said but true :rolleyes:

(for me it's a miracle why one guy who caused so much trouble is allowed to do it again and again)

UltimateNagash
21-02-2008, 14:56
I don't see any unbalance - what do you see?

And it's Gav's last book - since when???

Voodoo Boyz
21-02-2008, 15:01
I don't see any unbalance - what do you see?


The 14 or so PD that can spam the healing spell on one dice and the fact that you can now heal Ghouls/Skellies over their starting size, with all the characters if you want.

Of course that's just one build, and almost every army has it's own little slice of broken to play with, so it's all fair I guess.

But other than that little bit there's actually a pretty good set of choices in the book for each slot. There aren't a whole lot of "Bad Units" in the book.

Scorpioni
21-02-2008, 15:02
Rumour has it he quit (or was forced to quit) GW

Jedi152
21-02-2008, 15:10
I don't see any unbalance - what do you see?

And it's Gav's last book - since when???


Rumour has it he quit (or was forced to quit) GW
There's a thread about it in Other GW.

Brimstone's heard he quit.

Alessio is rumoured to be gone too.

UltimateNagash
21-02-2008, 15:38
Alessio is rumoured to be gone too.
:eek: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Joewrightgm
21-02-2008, 15:43
Didn't brimstone say Alessio is still around, or at least he hasn't thrown in the towl?

Akroma
21-02-2008, 15:44
I don't see any unbalance - what do you see?


well i didn't want to start this discussion again. most people here do always say "wow, so cool nice fluffy rules" if a new book is comming thats why i don't like to talk about this normally (no productive conversation is possible if someone says: hey it's hard but not impossible - which is true as long as dice are used but that statement is rather useless) . so i'll try to give a 'short' answer:
but after some years of gaming i don't like the powercreep anymore.
i don't like the possibilty of WS7 first striking skellis (which are supposed to be bad fighters - thats why they never run and cause fear, are immune to everything and so on)
i don't like the fact the new vampires are able to raise new units and heal their current ones that efficient, becaue healing should be an advantage of tombkings
i don't like missing bloodlines, because they had a nice influence to the background - just for increasing the effectivity
i don't like necromancers in the army if every other living beeing is removed, just looks like another option to pimp that army
i don't like the possibility of autohitting S7 monsters which gets so many additional attacks they can break nearly everything in the game alone (looks 'a bit' like herohammer which we had back in 5th edition; they tried to decrease this in the 6th but it's comming again and therefore destroying tactics
and so on...

if i would go more into details i would have to read the book again and my post would be so long nobody would read it

Emeraldw
21-02-2008, 15:45
The beginning of the end for our beloved hobby? :cries:

EvC
21-02-2008, 17:28
Heh, clearly Gav was waiting for MDG to give him his blessing, before he could move on :D

Mad Doc Grotsnik
21-02-2008, 18:51
Perhaps as well as being an alleged murderer (no, really, well, kind of. Long but entertaining story) it might just be I am also the harbinger of the Apocaylpse?

But as for the Stunties, I just don't like them. Never have done, never will do. That, and Pete Haines doesn't really seem to grasp the concept of an Achilles Heel. It's meant to be something present which can be tackled with a bit of skill, not something that is there but with a 1+ re-rollable save, immunity to Killing Blow and a magic thingymebob to prevent all missile fire against it! Stupid Pete Haines Rules. :p

UltimateNagash
21-02-2008, 21:11
i don't like the possibilty of WS7 first striking skellis (which are supposed to be bad fighters - thats why they never run and cause fear, are immune to everything and so on)
Well, you know, that requires stuff that can be dispelled or easily broken...

i don't like the fact the new vampires are able to raise new units and heal their current ones that efficient, becaue healing should be an advantage of tombkings
Well, they could always raise stuff, and heal some stuff. TK are still more reliable...

i don't like missing bloodlines, because they had a nice influence to the background - just for increasing the effectivity
They're still there O_o I'm reading it, bits on Strigoi, Blood Dragon, Necrarch and Lahmian as well as the obvious von Carstein. So yeah, I don't think that...

i don't like necromancers in the army if every other living beeing is removed, just looks like another option to pimp that army
Sorry, what? Necromancers are Undead...

i don't like the possibility of autohitting S7 monsters which gets so many additional attacks they can break nearly everything in the game alone (looks 'a bit' like herohammer which we had back in 5th edition; they tried to decrease this in the 6th but it's comming again and therefore destroying tactics
Actually, normally you can only get 10 attacks...
But you know, I don't think it's going to be a viable tactic. The Vampire won't have much (if any) of a save, and therefore will cause the army to crumble quickly...

if i would go more into details i would have to read the book again and my post would be so long nobody would read it
I would...

Fin-man
21-02-2008, 21:55
We’ve had the new VC book at our local store for approximately a month, and the players have been making lists with the new rules for almost that entire time. There are three VC players in our group, and they have played approximately 20 – 25 games with the new rules in this time, experimenting with new lists against various opponents.

The overarching question I have is, “Did they playtest this list at all?” It took our group of about 12 less than a day to find some very powerful combinations which are difficult to counter. In the games I have seen / participated in at our gaming store, here is what I have seen: (Our store plays 2250 as a ‘standard’ army size)

•Approx. 1000 points spent in characters. The ‘standard’ at this point is one VC, and three vampires, though a Wight has been added in one list.

•A consistent dice pool of 11-12 power dice, plus at least one bound item. The VCs are always equipped as level 4 mages, with the +2 dice and +1 to cast IoN powers, plus misc. defensive items. (such as 1+ AS, Blood Drinker, and / or other items.)

•2 – 4 corpse carts, with Balefire (?) (The -1 to enemy casting roll power.) These have been moved behind zombies, skeletons, or grave guard, to prevent their being shot as hills are generally frowned upon by our store owner.

•3 units of 15-18 core (skeletons / zombies mix) which are grown to some frighteningly large sizes before the game is over. The rest of the army is spent on wolves, grave guard, spirit hosts (to block shooting), black knights, and / or wraiths & banshee.

•No Blood Knights / Coaches or Vargulfs (so far), but I’m sure they will get around to them as trial units. The high price of the Blood Knights (both in points, and in model price) will probably keep them off the field at our place.

The experiences so far in our store show a relentless magic phase, overpowering even the most magic resistant armies by eight castings of IoN at a 3+, in addition to the three 4+ IoN, bound carts and single bound item. All of this is done with NO chance for a miscast, with all spells being cast on one dice. (Most other armies at the store have 3-5 dispel dice, with 2 scrolls being the ‘standard’)

The opponent’s magic is severely degraded by the corpse carts, which becomes worse as the VC army moves forward. Shooting is blocked to the grave guard by a spirit host base, and it is extremely difficult to shoot down any unit – it just gets models back the next turn.

Hand to hand works well (if you can overcome fear), but the ‘tarpit’ syndrome combined with the (now) large unit size means you are stuck. Eventually, the castings get through, the opponent’s magic defenses are burned, and units are flanked. (By normal movement – not magic) After that, it’s game over for most opponents.

However, this is just one store, one group of 12 or so Warhammer players, and the observations we have made so far. Like some others here, I will reserve final judgment until the book has been out for at least three months to see where the lists go.

Fin-man

Captain Cortez
21-02-2008, 21:59
Gav did a good job with Gorkamorka. Storm of Chaos and Albion I never forgave how badly he organized it.

Haven't read the entire VC book but what I saw the lay out looked very well put out. But some things are slightly broken (black Coach est). I played an opponent with 2 units of Knights of the Blood keep with Ogres. They are a tough egg to crack but are not unbeatable.

I really hope they don't mess with the Tomb kings book to much.

Pete Haines, did an ok job with the Dwarfs. What bugged me was how much he messed with the fluff for the Imperial Fist:mad:.

Akroma
21-02-2008, 22:32
Well, you know, that requires stuff that can be dispelled or easily broken...

erm... it's not that easy - not if you have in mind that you'll have to counter something else, too


Well, they could always raise stuff, and heal some stuff. TK are still more reliable...

i think 10+ dice are reliable enough. sure you can be unlucky but the more rolls you make, to more they show statistics are not useless... *g*


They're still there O_o I'm reading it, bits on Strigoi, Blood Dragon, Necrarch and Lahmian as well as the obvious von Carstein. So yeah, I don't think that...

it was fluffy if you have a lahmian vamipress with special powers. the only reason they removed ristrictions is that you can cook your cheese character even better. i mean they can have 100points of powers PLUS items. this should be enough, but maybe some people thought it's not efficient enough or why did they wrote the bloodlines in the background only? (and please don't tell me it's reflected in the rules)


Sorry, what? Necromancers are Undead...

ok, please tell me what a necromancer is!?
the army is called VAMPIRE army. they removed living beeings, no problems so far... but what the heck are necromancers?! some mage-guys experimenting with 'dark lores' and obviously they like bony girls more than living ones.
why they are in this undead army? having an own army, like an optional army list - ok. why should vampires accept these retards? they are no potent casters, no fighters and maybe it's not that easy to control them. there is just no need for them.
i don't see any real fluff reason for this - only getting some more raising power for the army. wow, thanks for this



Actually, normally you can only get 10 attacks...
But you know, I don't think it's going to be a viable tactic. The Vampire won't have much (if any) of a save, and therefore will cause the army to crumble quickly...

well a guy which deal 10 S7 hits alone (maybe he has some company), T5 and 2+ armoursave is not that defenceless. not much will be able to strike back. if there is a (un)lucky character remaining he should have some power behind his strikes or that vampire will heal up in no time (if he is wounded at all)


have a look in battle reports - 3 battles, 3 massacres! 1 vs HE and 2 vs skaven (which are not that bad as we all know). even people who still have to figure out what army list they want to play smack experienced guys that hard from the beginning.
have a look on fin-man's text...


but see, thats what i meant - you think everything is fine and i don't. it's very unlikely one of us reconsiders his opinion; especially if we don't talk head to head. forumsdiscussion is not that effiecient sometimes ;)

UltimateNagash
21-02-2008, 22:50
i think 10+ dice are reliable enough. sure you can be unlucky but the more rolls you make, to more they show statistics are not useless... *g*
You'll get half of those off. Not counting dispels.
TK will get 4/5 a turn without counting dispels as well. At least, as a basic build.
But for far cheaper... Therefore you get more troops. Plus you might be raising them, but not moving them. Which TK will be doing...

it was fluffy if you have a lahmian vamipress with special powers. the only reason they removed ristrictions is that you can cook your cheese character even better. i mean they can have 100points of powers PLUS items. this should be enough, but maybe some people thought it's not efficient enough or why did they wrote the bloodlines in the background only? (and please don't tell me it's reflected in the rules)
Well, yes, I do miss the Lahmian powers. and some of the others. But the thing is they are in the background, somewhat.
I can nicely make a fluffy Lahmian army with the list - lots of Skeletons, Grave Guard etc, backed up by Vamps with Beguile etc...

i don't see any real fluff reason for this - only getting some more raising power for the army. wow, thanks for this
Someone who has found the Vampire, but the Vamp doesn't want to give them the Blood Kiss yet. That's one reason

well a guy which deal 10 S7 hits alone (maybe he has some company), T5 and 2+ armoursave is not that defenceless. not much will be able to strike back. if there is a (un)lucky character remaining he should have some power behind his strikes or that vampire will heal up in no time (if he is wounded at all)
Cannonball/bolt thrower him...

but see, thats what i meant - you think everything is fine and i don't. it's very unlikely one of us reconsiders his opinion; especially if we don't talk head to head. forumsdiscussion is not that effiecient sometimes
No because it's my army, and I've waited along time for this :p

Voodoo Boyz
22-02-2008, 03:11
You'll get half of those off. Not counting dispels.
TK will get 4/5 a turn without counting dispels as well. At least, as a basic build.
But for far cheaper... Therefore you get more troops. Plus you might be raising them, but not moving them. Which TK will be doing...

No, actually you'll be getting 2/3 of those off because of the bloodline power.

And getting more troops is silly. All VC need to do is buy small units and then spam IoN on a 3+ to cast with 14 Power Dice to raise them into "full units", and they can still have bound spells for movement. 1k Points in characters isn't a problem when all you need is a few minimum sized drops of units you can raise above starting strength, you still will have points to buy the support units you need. Especially if you go with Ghouls and don't even need to buy command options.

And the Corpse Cart can increase the amount healed. All you need is 1 or 2 Turns of spamming IoN, raising Skellies or Ghouls above starting strength to "get your army", then you can worry about casting the Dance spell in turns 2-3.

And before you even say it, the general is still a Vampire, so he fights very well, and he can do all the above magic wise while still getting a 2+ armor and a 4+ or 5+ ward. With a constantly healing champion to accept challenges for him.


Cannonball/bolt thrower him...

So we have to rely on them failing the look out sir roll, and then failing the ward save, as I attempt to cannon snipe the Undead General. I'm sure that's a great way to win the game and make friends at the same time.

EDIT: Look, I'm not saying the army is unbeatable, but lets not pretend that it's some shining example of great balanced games design. The best I can say is that many of the units are good enough where you'd consider taking them. Gav did a great job there.

Dranthar
22-02-2008, 03:37
I stopped playing VC because I felt they were a no-brainer army to win with - they had unbreakable troops, hard-core leaders and magic that was a little too easy to abuse IMO. I found it made for a dull game where I just plowed my troops into the enemy and played the attrition game.

From what I hear, the abusiveness of the last version has now been toned down and the tactic of just spamming new units is now much less of a problem.

I'll wait until reading the book myself and playing a few games before passing judgement, but from the sounds of it GW has done a good job with them. :D

Akroma
22-02-2008, 09:45
And before you even say it, the general is still a Vampire, so he fights very well, and he can do all the above magic wise while still getting a 2+ armor and a 4+ or 5+ ward. With a constantly healing champion to accept challenges for him.


So we have to rely on them failing the look out sir roll, and then failing the ward save, as I attempt to cannon snipe the Undead General. I'm sure that's a great way to win the game and make friends at the same time.


hmm it sounds like vampireplayers start complaining about weak generals: hey he can be taken out by a cannon - what a surprise, same problem has every other unit in this game. normally a vampire is not alone - so a boltthrower is no threat at all (only for one of his reraisable companions).
too bad there are only 2 armies with cannons :eyebrows:

Muncher666
22-02-2008, 15:16
I do wish that people would stop moaning about the latest power creep and play the damned game. If I managed to kill a vampire lord with a stone thrower in an all goblin army, anyone can do it. Jesus.

One of the things I'm going to miss most about having Gav about is that he seems to be the only GW employee to semi-regularly post on here. T'was nice having someone who was the real deal and not just in the know. :P

Allan.