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View Full Version : Is the Banshee Scream a Leadership-Based Test?



EvC
20-02-2008, 20:24
Brought over from another thread since no-one else was in the mood to stop it going off-topic...


I hate to disagree with you EVC, but I am going to. I have researched the TK and (old) VC armies up and down the block. Trust me. It is a special kind of leadership-based test. Note I did not say it was a leadership test. That would be different indeed. It's a LD-BASED attack. That is exactly why you can use the general's Ld score. Why else could you use your general's Ld score? The ONLY time you can use his LD is in ALL LD based tests. Like Doc said, things like cold blooded will not be taken into account, as this is a special attack. Go read the TK FAQ if you don't believe me. I don't care if "most" rules nutz think it's only a special shooting attack. The good folks I play with are wiser than I, and they all know it's a LD-based attack also.

Ah, but the TK FAQ does not say anything of the sort. You should read it yourself before telling others to do so, you know. It just says you can use the General's leadership. This was already true for the Banshee's Scream, which explicitly says in its rules that the victim can use the General's leadership. You should know that... for someone who claims to have researched the books up and down, you've done a very poor job of it by all accounts.

The only question that matters, is if the Howl is a leadership-based attack. I used to agree with you that it was, especially after a White Dwarf tactica suggested the combination. However, I was convinced in a thread like this that in Warhammer, if you're taking a test of any sort, then you are rolling the dice, not the person attacking you. But in fact, it is the Banshee attacking its victim, and it is the Banshee's owner rolling the dice. It's not a leadership based test, it's a leadership based attack.

Doom and Darkness should just say -3 to leadership, and make it simple. You can play it that way if you like, I won't mind, but don't expect everyone else to :)

I also refer you to the VC rules commentary of this forum:
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86017&highlight=banshee+leadership
with the appropriate section highlighted ;)

Jack of Blades
20-02-2008, 20:34
To be honest... both arguments have ground - I myself would play it as affecting the Banshee - but I could certainly see why it wouldn't, rule wise. It's just that I'd probably be more scared when surrounded with dead, moaning spirits, temporary blackness, illusions of decayed and rotten people and several other things, than if I was just happily marching toward the enemy lines with my regiment.

I'm not saying what you should be playing it like though, I'm saying what would logically make the most sense. I mean, can you honestly tell me that you'd be scared the same amount if a crazed, fanatic, mentally ill murderer with a fetish for torture ran toward you in the daylight surrounded by people compared to if you were chained without chance of escape in a dark, dank etc. dungeon in the middle of nowhere?

EvC
20-02-2008, 20:36
Whatever kinky things you get up to in your own free time is of no relevence to this discussion JoB ;)

Jack of Blades
20-02-2008, 20:43
Well, thing is this argument can't really be solved, I just felt like adding my rather poorly constructed thoughts in :) We all know that threads like this don't end until the writers have had their fingers start to steam.

Anyway, I'll withdraw now *carebear beam into the wounds inflicted by previous post*

The Clairvoyant
20-02-2008, 21:04
Well i decided to use GW's advice in the rulebook. I rolled a dice. It came up as a 5 so that means Doom & Darkness spell will work with banshee scream.

Discussion over.

Jagosaja
20-02-2008, 21:29
This is interesting, because one can draw parallels with the Acursed Armor/Helm of Commandment combo. If those -3 on Ld from Doom and Darkness don't count when using general's Ld, then -3 WS caused by Accursed Armor does not affect borrowed WS from the person with Helm of commandment, right? IMHO

DeathlessDraich
21-02-2008, 09:17
Anyone knows whether the new VC book phrases the rules for the Banshee in the same way?
Hope the writers had some presence of mind to rectify VC's previous ambiguities.

skilett
21-02-2008, 11:30
To me it is quite clear that it doesn't work. D&D says it imposes a -3 penalty on any leadership-based test taken by the unit. The unit takes no test whatsoever, the Banshee simply roll 2d6+2 and compares the roll to the targets leadership. It is by no means a leadership-based test taken by the unit.

Gorbad Ironclaw
21-02-2008, 13:15
It says that you roll 2d6+2 and for each point you beat the targets leadership they suffer a wound, and that you use the highest leadership available etc.

I think Skilett have the rights of it. It's not a leadership based test anymore than trying to wound someone with a sword is a strenght or a toughness test, it's a specialised form of damage dealing, but not a leadership test.

Tili
21-02-2008, 13:39
To me it is quite clear that it doesn't work. D&D says it imposes a -3 penalty on any leadership-based test taken by the unit. The unit takes no test whatsoever, the Banshee simply roll 2d6+2 and compares the roll to the targets leadership. It is by no means a leadership-based test taken by the unit.

I think this is correct rulewise.


Well i decided to use GW's advice in the rulebook. I rolled a dice. It came up as a 5 so that means Doom & Darkness spell will work with banshee scream.

Discussion over.

But this is to funny to not quote :D

Ganymede
21-02-2008, 14:55
To me it is quite clear that it doesn't work. D&D says it imposes a -3 penalty on any leadership-based test taken by the unit. The unit takes no test whatsoever, the Banshee simply roll 2d6+2 and compares the roll to the targets leadership. It is by no means a leadership-based test taken by the unit.

This is tough to believe. Leadership based test is not defined in the rulebook so I don't know how you can confidently say that no leadership based test is happening.

Gorbad Ironclaw
21-02-2008, 15:01
Is there anything to say that it is a leadership test? It doesn't really have many similarities with any other leadership test in the game.

It's not even the owning player who rolls the dice for it.

Ganymede
21-02-2008, 15:55
It is clearly not a leadership test, and no one ever aluded to the fact that it was. It is a leadership based test, and leadership based tests are not defined in the rulebook.

To be fair though, a banshee's scream is fundamentally smilar to a daemon instability test or a crumble test.

Soul of Iron
21-02-2008, 16:11
This one is a hard one. There is no way to say how this would work either way so I would say just Dice off.

I would think the spell would effect your leadership whenever it's tested, and the banshee scream does test one's mettle (which is hampered by the D&D). I would think they stack.

theunwantedbeing
21-02-2008, 16:12
The casket of souls blatently isnt a leadership test.
Roll 2d6, add 2 and deduct the affected units leadership.
That's nothing like a leadership test...and the controlling player doesnt even get a say in it.

The banshee scream works the same way.
The VC player rolls 2d6, add's 2 to the number and then deducts the affected units leadership from that score.

Again, not a leadership test by any means.
Unless of course it actually says "the unit takes a leadership test, add 2 to the score and then deduct their leadership"...which would then be a leadership test.

Modified leadership counts as the leadership of the unit of course.
So a unit suffering from doom and darkness is going to have their own leadership at -3(unless they can use a nearby general's leadership to override that).
Unless the modified leadership is only for "leadership tests" in which case you dont apply the modifier, unless the scream or whatever is specifically stated to be a leadership test.

Having 2 attacks is rolling 2 dice, clearly its a leadership test.
No?

EvC
21-02-2008, 17:24
Yes, Doom and Darkness says the modifier applies to leadership-based tests, not the base leadership.

Of course this begs the question, is there anything in the game that we know qualifies for sure as a leadership-based test without being a leadership test?

Ganymede
22-02-2008, 05:30
There's nothing in the game that we know for sure is a leadership based test period. There is no test in the game that is described as a leadership based test.

M.R.B.
22-02-2008, 09:51
Do you guys get hung up on the word 'based'?
All tests against leadership are leadership based tests (BRB 5). Such as psychology tests and the test in the spell Violet Fire (Tzeentch).

Banshee howl of 6th ed VC is not a test in the same way. With the new one, dunno yet.