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Zoolander
21-02-2008, 06:58
This was not my idea - this came from another thread here. I went home and played with the idea that was presented, and came up with a list. This is just for those of you wondering what it might look like.

The basic idea of this list is to have three vampires running around, all with Aura of Majesty on, giving a -3 to LD tests to anyone within 6". Then cast the spell Doom & Darkness, giving a unit a further -3 LD, and finally move in with the wraiths + banshee, and let her scream do massive damage.

Pros: Will take people unaware at how dangerous the combo is until after they are hit by it once. Banshees will do massive damage, even to high LD troops. Having Lore of Death gives the VC two missile spells, and 2 additional damaging range spells, one that allows characters to be picked out of units while healing the vampire (even though we have a better healing spell already, this one hurts when it heals. Nice!), so all good stuff.

Cons: Only works when units are within 6" of the vampires' unit. This is a little tricky to get off at times, especially in a slow block unit. The spell can easily be dispelled, spoiling half the fun of such a nasty combo. And once you pull it off once, your opponent will never let D&D get off again if he's smart. Also, you don't have a lot of power dice, nor magic defense, so getting spells off and stopping other spells will be difficult if they build for it.

Here's a list I quickly pumped out:

Vampire Count
- Level 3 upgrade
- Forbidden Lore – Death
- Aura of Dark Majesty
- Crown of the Damned (4+ ward)
- Book of Arkhan
- Flayed Hauberk (2+ save)

Vampire
- BSB
- Aura of Dark Majesty
- Drakenhof Banner (Regen - ensures that the wights can actually swing their GW in combat. Don't need it? Make a copy of the vamp below and use the 150 points or so to buff up other units)

Vampire
- Aura of Dark Majesty
- Power Stone x2

(935)
__________________________________________________ _______

20 Zombies
- Standard Bearer
- Musician

20 Zombies
- Standard Bearer
- Musician

16 Skeletons
- Standard Bearer
- Champion
- Musician
- Banner of Undead Legion (counts as having twice the models - can be dumped for more skellies or zombies or wights)

Corpse Cart
- Lodestone

(457)
__________________________________________________ ________

17 Grave Guard - stick all three vamps here!
- Great Weapons
- Champion
- Standard Bearer
- Musician
- Royal Banner of Strigos (hatred - cause noone likes hatred filled wights and vamps that also have regen.)

6 Fellbats

(405)
__________________________________________________ _________

4 Wraiths
- Banshee

4 Wraiths
- Banshee

(450)
__________________________________________________ _________

Total – 2247

Power Dice – 7
Dispel Dice - 6


Questions, comments? This is not by far the most tactical list, but it's very amusing, and I think just seeing your opponent's face when you pull it off the first time will be worth it.

Oops - this should be in the Army Lists forum, my apologies.

perrin23860
21-02-2008, 12:36
my first thought is that a vampire with supernatural horror would be nice if you could park him and his GG unit in front of several units

either that or the lore of death has a spell, (forget the name), that makes fear causers cause terror instead. this could be nice too.

another neat trick might be to try using screaming banner too. even with just a minus one, the screaming banner really starts to become rather good.

like you said, the trick is to get this unit in front of a lot of units, in close proximity, and let the fear/terror do the rest. one neat trick i've noticed is when one uses book of arkhan and your opponent knows that the unit being moved is not in charge range, oftentimes they simply let the spell go off. if you could danse the wights into 1-2" of a lot of people, then this could work...

off to the drawing board...

Jack of Blades
21-02-2008, 13:11
I may have created an official ''tactic''! This is a historical day! Here's the most effective one (imo :)):

3 Vampires, give them all Forbidden Lore; Lore of Death and 2 Power Stones. Count can be equipped as you usually would (though if you want a serious Opera, you'll need him with 2 Power Stones and Lore of Death too). If you want them to be versatile, give them Hellsteeds so your enemy never knows what to expect, ie. will they fly in and blow a Power Stone on Drain Life, or aid the Banshees?

Against a LD 10 opponent, assuming you get 3 D&D!'s off (you'll obviously need a Caster-Count), you'll on average do 8 wounds per Banshee. In other words, units such as Swordmasters will be annihilated in a single phase, and you get two tries to do this (most opponents only have a single scroll caddy too). You can blow your dice on something else while awaiting the opportunity.

All in all this is an extremely lethal combination when it works, and ~8 Power Stones should mean it works. To stop that, you'll need an amount of magic defence which basically takes up all your character slots, but our characters can fight.

Let no one sit deaf to the Opera! :evilgrin:

Zoolander
21-02-2008, 16:17
Those are both great ideas too. I had the thought about terror, but if the wraith unit is nearby, they cause terror too. I considererd buying Scabscrath for a character, but then recalled the spell you mentioned, and thought if the rare chance the wraiths aren't nearby, I can always cast that.

Jack of Blades
21-02-2008, 16:34
Well, you could just cast D&D! three times, give someone Skabscratch and Talisman of the Lycni. That's an automatically failed terror test unless your enemy has something to work against it, not to mention that the rally test for next turn will need a snakeyes (assuming the unit has a musician). You could do this with a bunch of something waiting behind the soon-to-be-fleeing-very-important-unit to take advantage of Crossfire.

Xavier
21-02-2008, 16:57
Sorry to disappoint, but you need to re read the description of Aura of Dark Majesty. The wording says, "if an enemy unit is within 6" of one or more vampires..." so they would not combine for a -3 modifier.

Latro
21-02-2008, 16:59
It's a gimmick army ... or a one-trick-pony ... whatever you prefer to call it. A very good one, no doubt about that, but still gambling an awfull lot on just that one trick.

- If you happen to run into an Immune to Psychology armie, you just wasted a lot of points (chosing lores, powerstones) on a trick that has lost a lot of its bite.

- If your Banshee units are destroyed ... there is no trick left.

- By taking the Lore of Death, you stripped a lot of combat power from your list ... no extra movement and no first strike for you! Also no growing Skeleton units or new units to divert charges and crossfire fleeing units.

- It only starts working after you Banshees get into range, but they depend on cover from either terrain or you units ... so they'll take a few turns getting there ... giving your opponent plenty of opportunity to do things you don't want him to do.

- Don't put all your Vampires on Hellsteeds (the flying kind, right?) ... it means they can't hide in units anymore and will have to park in plain sight with a bulls-eye on their forehead if they want to use most of their spells.

If it works, it'll be carnage ... but I don't like the price you have to pay for that (in points and loss of other options).


:cool:

Jack of Blades
21-02-2008, 17:02
Latro, you do know that they keep IoN no matter what lore they have right? No ''growing skeleton units'' got me confused, as they still have room for 1 The Master power.

Sinner098
21-02-2008, 17:08
Sorry, Aura of Dark Majesty don't stack with other AoDM's, only 1 vamp "NEEDs" it, the others can have Scabscrath or other thingys to make them mess with leader ship. Over all very fun tactic and I'm going to try it out tonight on my poor unexpecting friend, he plays Empire with no special characters so it should mess him up something fierce.

Latro
21-02-2008, 18:08
Latro, you do know that they keep IoN no matter what lore they have right? No ''growing skeleton units'' got me confused, as they still have room for 1 The Master power.

I know about the Invocation, but I didn't notice the changes the the Vampire Lord you made in your comments. I'm still not convinced though ...

Without the bloodpower effects stacking, you'll need the spell even more. The Vampires that can cast it depend on their power stones to be able to do it with a good chance. Compare that to the magic defence of any serious tournament level army and they'll have a good chance to scroll and dispell two attempts each round ... the third depending on how much they invested in dice and/or scrolls. That's two reasonably sure chances at succes.

What about using the tactic as a late-game knock-out? Take the usual character set-up (magic heavy) and add one Vampire as you described (Hellsteed, Lore of Death, powerstones) ... and Banshees in the armie of course. Wage war as always, use a lot of magic to raise, move and strike first ... use the Death Vampire to snipe with magic missiles.

During the final turns, once scrolls are gone and your opponent is used to how you use your magic phase ... wait untill his dice are gone and hit him with DOOM! Add a double Banshee scream and it should be quite devestating to the already depleted units.


:cool:

Jack of Blades
21-02-2008, 18:14
I never said you had to give 'em hellsteeds you know, it was just an option.

Late game knock-out is perfectly viable. Your opponent is pretty liable to blow his scrolls on those Van Hels etc., and then when he has only his trusty dice left... :evilgrin: There's nothing quite like seeing a carefully planned, well-executed, amusing and odd one-trick-pony work. Though the good ol' ''bah, should I go all in for it or not...? meh, why not, I'll do it'' has a strong pull on me.

wildkarrde0
21-02-2008, 19:02
I would think one vamp on hell steed should do it if played right or maybe give the vamp lord dark what its and a zombie dragon!

Zoolander
21-02-2008, 20:09
It's a gimmick army ... or a one-trick-pony ... whatever you prefer to call it. A very good one, no doubt about that, but still gambling an awfull lot on just that one trick.

Yes, I mentioned that. If it works, great, but it relies on a combo of things to make it work.


- If you happen to run into an Immune to Psychology armie, you just wasted a lot of points (chosing lores, powerstones) on a trick that has lost a lot of its bite.

No, not really. D&D won't work, but AoDM works on them, and banshee screams still affect ITP units, so it is still viable.


If your Banshee units are destroyed ... there is no trick left.

True. Like I said - it's not tactically sound, but could be fun. Did you even read the whole post? I mentioned a lot of this already.


- By taking the Lore of Death, you stripped a lot of combat power from your list ... no extra movement and no first strike for you! Also no growing Skeleton units or new units to divert charges and crossfire fleeing units.

Not sure what you mean. Death actually has MORE combat power than Lord of Vampires. It has 4 ranged attacks, as I mentioned, vs. Vampire's one. No Danse is a draw back, but I also have the Book of Arkhan, and you could always take a necro with that spell. First strike comes with the corpse cart, or from necro or the Book of Arkhan. Growing skeletons comes with the IoN spell, which all vampires know, regardless of lore. I don't see the problem.


- It only starts working after you Banshees get into range, but they depend on cover from either terrain or you units ... so they'll take a few turns getting there ... giving your opponent plenty of opportunity to do things you don't want him to do.

They will take one turn to get there, and you can always screen them behind the GG. Also, being ethereal usually means the only thing shooting them will be spells, or the random HoD Arrow, unless you are skaven. Not a huge deal, but versus some armies, that could be a problem. Again, not tactically sound, but it could be fun.


- Don't put all your Vampires on Hellsteeds (the flying kind, right?) ... it means they can't hide in units anymore and will have to park in plain sight with a bulls-eye on their forehead if they want to use most of their spells.

Unless Hellsteeds are large, you certainly can hide in units.


If it works, it'll be carnage ... but I don't like the price you have to pay for that (in points and loss of other options).

:cool:

The points in cost isn't the issue as much as the cost in tactical options you will lose. I do agree with you, and I said it wasn't a tactical list - again - just made for fun more than anything.

@Xavier: I saw the book before release and apparently they changed the wording on that item (they've done that to three items/powers I've found so far). Apparently, someone in GW had the same thought we did and saw how gruesome it could be. Oh, well, spoil all my fun! :-) Thanks for pointing that out, I'll check the exact wording again. Without the AoDM stacking, I'm not sure it's as fun to try anymore. It would rely on getting D&D off all the time. Although, if you took Forbidden Lore - Death for the other vamps, that is still a possibility.

Jack of Blades
21-02-2008, 20:14
Zoolander, didn't you say you were going to test this out on your mate? :evilgrin:

Oberon
21-02-2008, 20:20
Zoolander: flying characters can join in units, but characters mounted on flying mounts cannot. I found it from the rulebook few days ago while trying to find a reason not to take a hellsteed. -Found one ;)

Latro
21-02-2008, 20:57
To clear things up:


No, not really. D&D won't work, but AoDM works on them, and banshee screams still affect ITP units, so it is still viable.

Please note the part where I say "a trick that has lost much of its bite" ... lost 3 wounds per scream to be precise. Without the Doom boost the screaming tactic is a lot less effective and certainly not worth spending all the points for the bloodpowers and powerstones on (IMHO of course).


True. Like I said - it's not tactically sound, but could be fun. Did you even read the whole post? I mentioned a lot of this already.

I did ... did you? You asked for comments, here they are! Some of them agree with you and some of them don't ... even if you still mis the point of them. ;)


Not sure what you mean. Death actually has MORE combat power than Lord of Vampires. It has 4 ranged attacks, as I mentioned, vs. Vampire's one. No Danse is a draw back, but I also have the Book of Arkhan, and you could always take a necro with that spell. First strike comes with the corpse cart, or from necro or the Book of Arkhan. Growing skeletons comes with the IoN spell, which all vampires know, regardless of lore. I don't see the problem.

One low level bound Danse and one attempt to cast it on 2 dice means you can count on your opponent to stop it when it matters ... the necromantic spells rely a lot on recasting them over and over again (which this list can't). Without this, your units lose a lot of their combat power ... even the impressive Grave Guards. And the Invocation heals a unit, doesn't make it grow (but I think that was a miscommunication).

The ranged Death Magic just doesn't offer the same advantages ... and forces the Vampires to be out in front as well (unprotected as they are).


They will take one turn to get there, and you can always screen them behind the GG. Also, being ethereal usually means the only thing shooting them will be spells, or the random HoD Arrow, unless you are skaven. Not a huge deal, but versus some armies, that could be a problem. Again, not tactically sound, but it could be fun.

Because of the screening it will usually take two turns ... they can't start at the 12" line and are forced to move slower because of the screen (and you also lack movement magic). Add that to the couple of turns it will take to burn through your opponents scrolls and there won't be much time left.


Unless Hellsteeds are large, you certainly can hide in units.

They fly ... so unless I'm very off here there will be no hiding.


The points in cost isn't the issue as much as the cost in tactical options you will lose. I do agree with you, and I said it wasn't a tactical list - again - just made for fun more than anything.

Well, you pay 250ish points (bloodpowers/items) for a tactic that has a lot of drawbacks and risks ... but I agree that the loss of tactical options hurts more.

I probably will add a single "Aura of Death" Vampire every now and then ... just to keep my opponents nervous.


:evilgrin:

Zoolander
21-02-2008, 22:38
Zoolander, didn't you say you were going to test this out on your mate? :evilgrin:

I am still going to try it out, but knowing that the AoDM don't stack does change things a bit. I'll have to add something else to spice it up.


Zoolander: flying characters can join in units, but characters mounted on flying mounts cannot. I found it from the rulebook few days ago while trying to find a reason not to take a hellsteed. -Found one ;)

Yes, I forgot that rule, thanks. You really don't need a flying mount. He can can take the talisman of lynci for very few points to make his mv 9. Not as good as flying, but on the other hand, you can run through woods, and it's a LOT cheaper.

Lantro, I appreciate your feedback. And I agreed with some of what you were saying. I think it was more of how you said it and me misinterpretting what you were trying to say. If that was my fault, then I apologize. I don't think it is as much a one trick pony as you do, BUT it does lack tactical sense, especially considering that AoDM doesn't stack anymore. Again, this was more of a fun list than anything - not something I would take to tournaments because of it's "one trick pony" nature.

Latro
22-02-2008, 06:47
Lantro, I appreciate your feedback. And I agreed with some of what you were saying. I think it was more of how you said it and me misinterpretting what you were trying to say. If that was my fault, then I apologize.

Don't worry about it ... on-line discussions can easily give a slightly off impression of what and how something is said. All in all it looks like we agree, but only disagree a bit on how much exactly we agree ... I think.


:cool:

(PS I enjoyed reading your battle-report by the way ... untill I can finally get myself on a copy myself it's a great way to "get a feel" for the new list.)

Zoolander
22-02-2008, 21:27
Don't worry about it ... on-line discussions can easily give a slightly off impression of what and how something is said. All in all it looks like we agree, but only disagree a bit on how much exactly we agree ... I think.
:cool:

LOL um... I think you're right...


(PS I enjoyed reading your battle-report by the way ... until I can finally get myself on a copy myself it's a great way to "get a feel" for the new list.)

Oh, thank you very much! That was my intention. Many peeps don't have the book, and it can help get an idea of how they might perform. I have two games tomorrow, if not more, so each one will have a batrep if I can! Thanks again for your feedback and accepting my apology. /cheers ;)

winkypinky
22-02-2008, 23:02
To stop that, you'll need an amount of magic defence which basically takes up all your character slots, but our characters can fight.

Let no one sit deaf to the Opera!

Double drain can do wonders....
Banshees are really powerfull, and good.

But. They die really fast to magic missiles/anything whith a magic stick.
It really is a one trick army. Since if you banshees dies you have lost a lot of your killing power.

But I can imagine that this kind of "one trick pony" can actually be good, because even if you lose your banshees you still have a 3 vamps and a undead army left.

So probs to you for making a good use of your rare choices combined with the rest of your army :)

... ups.. somehow i managed to think the one i quoted was OP... but still the point is the same...