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T10
03-10-2005, 07:27
I notice that the Wood Elf armylist describes Treemen as both Stubborn and Forest Spirits. Forest Spirits are immune to Psychology, which should render them immune to Stubborn as well. :rolleyes:

Of course, the intent is clear - Treemen are Stubborn and Immune to all other psychology.

Did I just miss something?

-T10

Griefbringer
03-10-2005, 08:04
GW design studio screwed up again? That is not really news. :o

Technically, it would have been solved by adding some "even though normally immune to psychology" special exception to accompany the stubborn rule.

T10
03-10-2005, 10:13
The wood elves special rules have been compiled into a NEAT two-page summary and the bestiary simply references each rule by title. Stubborn is a standard rule from the rulebook and thus not included.

In short: I have failed to find any statement that would indicate that Stubborn is exempt from the Forest Spirit's Immune to Psychology sub-clause.

-T10

Eldaron
03-10-2005, 13:16
Well, it`s the same old story. As usual GW doesn`t consider their own basic rules and thus such constructs are made (as with Dark Elf witches or Blood Dragons i.e.). that Treemen are INTENDED to be stubborn despite their immunity to psychology should be clear. Alas, technically they are not since GW has once again messed up.

Xavier
03-10-2005, 14:26
It will be the exact same as frenzied witch elfs with hatred, it will be an over sight on games workshops part and will be corrected in the FAQ, you are only reading far to far into it, why give somthing stubborn if they dont intend it to have it, why give it immune to psycology if they dont intend it to have it.

Crazy Harborc
03-10-2005, 20:05
This type of problem with GW's rules systems has been around for many years. IMHO, better proof reading for this kind of mistake would/should help lessen the goofups.

IMHO, since a given troop type is immune to psychology and stubborn in their special rules, then THAT is exactly what the writers intend. it's one thing when something is left out. In this case since both special rules/abilities are given to the same whatever, that's a "special rule combo" for them.

g0ddy
03-10-2005, 21:08
The fault I find isnt in the army books themselves but in the psychology section of the rulebook.

A good rule of thumb ive found is if the unit is immune to psychology, it can have whatever special rules in addition to that however condradictory they are, but it is still immune to have such effects forced upon them by the enemy - unless specifically stated otherwise.

Ala enemy spells making them frenzied etc.

- g0ddy

NakedFisherman
03-10-2005, 23:38
The fault I find isnt in the army books themselves but in the psychology section of the rulebook.

A good rule of thumb ive found is if the unit is immune to psychology, it can have whatever special rules in addition to that however condradictory they are, but it is still immune to have such effects forced upon them by the enemy - unless specifically stated otherwise.

Ala enemy spells making them frenzied etc.

- g0ddy

Of course, this isn't the case because some things (Hammerer unit with Dwarf General and Immune to Psy banner) would then be allowed when they're not supposed to be. It keeps things more under lock and key the way it is -- the unfortunate side effect is that the army book writers must make sure they allow or disallow other psycholgy as standard.

Crazy Harborc
04-10-2005, 17:27
Most/all my regular opponents (and myself) have agreed that the armybook's writers knew what they were doing when they wrote in "special rules" that are different than the rulebook. That after all, IS one of the reasons for special rules.

Ganymede
04-10-2005, 22:20
What are you guys talking about? My Woodelf Book explicitly states that he is still stubborn despite being ItP, and it says so right in the Treeman bestiary entry.

g0ddy
04-10-2005, 23:47
Of course, this isn't the case because some things (Hammerer unit with Dwarf General and Immune to Psy banner) would then be allowed when they're not supposed to be. It keeps things more under lock and key the way it is -- the unfortunate side effect is that the army book writers must make sure they allow or disallow other psycholgy as standard.

Well if it specifcally states otherwise - then of course use the army books convention - but if it doesnt that method works fairly well.

- g0ddy

Flame
05-10-2005, 01:32
What are you guys talking about? My Woodelf Book explicitly states that he is still stubborn despite being ItP, and it says so right in the Treeman bestiary entry.

It does? I must be blind then!

g0ddy
05-10-2005, 03:15
mine does too :)

- g0ddy

T10
05-10-2005, 08:52
It does? I must be blind then!

Put my name down for some new glasses!

Please point out (i.e. quote) the relevant paragraph. When I read the Treeman entry it said something like:

Special Rules
Forest Spirit, Flammable, Strangleroot attack, Scaly Skin, Stubborn.

(I may have left out something)

-T10

Tarax
06-10-2005, 08:27
Therefore I want to see a division in the Psychology section.

Psychology: Panic, Fear, Terror

Ability: Frenzy, Stubborn, Stupidity

Special rules, like Animosity, could be classed under either one, depending.

It would solve a lot of problems.

xancithus
06-10-2005, 15:54
yeah. personnally I don't think that immune to psychology should stop you from being stubborn. its not really what you'd call psychology.

T10
23-02-2006, 09:46
I'm still interested in hearing if this has been resolved.

-T10

SuperBeast
23-02-2006, 12:50
Nope!
I haven't found it on a Q&A, and the WE book does nothing more than list Stubborn and ItP in the same breath in the Treeman/Ancient's profile.

It's obvious what the intent is, but again, to the letter of the law, Treemen aren't stubborn under the rules... :wtf:

Anaris
23-02-2006, 23:01
OK, just started out in WFB and so may have missed something but:

Stubborn lets you take break tests on an unmodified Ld test?
ItP doesn't make you immune to break tests?

So where is the problem?

ZomboCom
23-02-2006, 23:26
OK, just started out in WFB and so may have missed something but:

Stubborn lets you take break tests on an unmodified Ld test?
ItP doesn't make you immune to break tests?

So where is the problem?

Stubborn is a type of psychology, which the Treeman would be immune to, so it would have no effect.

The intention, however, is very clear, and I'd obviously play it as stubborn.

Crazy Harborc
24-02-2006, 20:49
If the Special Rules for whatever say it is Immune to Psychology AND Stubborn, then THAT is the way the "Special Rules" for whatever are. I do believe that it's mentioned in the rulesbook that there WILL/CAN be special rules in armybooks that supersede the rulebook.

Drake Dun
25-02-2006, 01:46
Yes. The unit is immune to psychology and it is stubborn. The rules do not say that it may not be stubborn. They do say, however, that it ignores the rules accompanying that designation. So for all practical purposes the treeman is not stubborn.

The previous posters are correct - read literally, the treeman does not benefit from the rules for stubborn, but obviously it is supposed to so we should just play it that way.

Drake

mageith
25-02-2006, 02:59
Impressive! A whole thread where everyone agrees on the intent.

Mage Ith
Defender of the New Age of Reason.

Mad Makz
25-02-2006, 03:46
Also, this may have been a moot point as the rules for stubborn in 7th edtion may no longer be psychology, just so they don't have to type that disclaimer everytime they make something immune to psychology.