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ZeroTwentythree
21-02-2008, 13:56
Quick questions that came up in a game last night. First time using the Screaming Bell...




Vermintide: The spell says you place the template then move it 4d6 in away from the caster. I always assumed this meant you nominated a target direction and it moved in that direction. Last night another skaven player said he understood it to mean that the spell moved directly forward (perpendicular to the front of the casters base.)

If it's the latter, how this be treated with a grey seer on a bell, who can cast in any direction?



Screaming Bell: Comet of Cassesasesasesfferdora hit, the Bell and it's unit were caught in the area. I assumed that since it counts as a large target and can otherwise be picked out as a target, that the "unit" (the bell and the clanrats pushing it) would take their 2d6 hits, then the caster could pick whether thest hits would be on the unit or the bell or some combination of the two.

There was a question as to whether the bell would take 2d6 and the unit would take 2d6. (Almost as if they were 2 separate "units")



Thanks.

theunwantedbeing
21-02-2008, 14:02
The vermintide spell can be cast in any direction from the screaming bell(by the grey seer on it of course, not by the bell lol).

The unit takes 2d6 hits, as does the bell.
Only if the bell and seer ontop were unit strength 4 or less would they not get hit.

ZeroTwentythree
21-02-2008, 14:13
So for the purposes of a spell hitting a unit we consider the large target and the "unit" (of smaller figures) in which the target is located separately?

Masque
21-02-2008, 14:22
The vermintide spell can be cast in any direction from the screaming bell(by the grey seer on it of course, not by the bell lol).

This applies to any Grey Seer, not just one a Screaming Bell.


The unit takes 2d6 hits, as does the bell.
Only if the bell and seer ontop were unit strength 4 or less would they not get hit.

Just because the Bell can be targetted seperately does not make it a seperate unit. You should roll the hits for the unit and distribute them like shooting. This means the Seer and Bell are safe unless you are down to less than 5 rats in the unit pushing the Bell.

theunwantedbeing
21-02-2008, 14:30
If you are unit strength 5 or more then you can be picked out of the unit as a target regardless of how many men are in the unit.

Maybe you pick 1 or the other to take the hits...or divide the hits between the 2 then?
The comet does just say the "unit" takes 2D6 hits.....
The bell is part of the unit, so I'm not so sure.....

ZeroTwentythree
21-02-2008, 14:35
Maybe you pick 1 or the other to take the hits...or divide the hits between the 2 then?
The comet does just say the "unit" takes 2D6 hits.....
The bell is part of the unit, so I'm not so sure.....


That was my opinion -- it's part of the unit so 2d6 for the combined pusher/bell unit, but since it's large the caster can allocate the 2d6 between the pushers and the bell itself however he sees fit (per normal targeting.)

xragg
21-02-2008, 16:57
It would be treated as any other spell that targets units, use the normal shooting rules. Comet just has a radius of how far it will effect units. If the unit is in range, it does Xd6 S4 hits. If you have 5 or more rats with the bell, the bell/seer cant be hit, just like normal shooting. Less then 5 rats and the bell/seer will split its share of hits with the unit. While the bell is indeed large and can be picked out for targeting, comet does not pick a target and is almost like a large template weapon. Edit: In order to hit the bell, you must be able to target a unit with the spell, like forked lightning.

Vermintide, you set the base of the large template so that it is touching the base of the grey seer. When a grey seer is riding a bell, the entire bell can be used as its base. The template then moves in a straight line chosen by the skaven player as described in the describtion.

TheDarkDaff
22-02-2008, 08:07
It would be treated as any other spell that targets units, use the normal shooting rules. Comet just has a radius of how far it will effect units.
The only problem with this is that the comet does NOT target units. It just effects them while it "targets" the allocated point on the table (this also means you can't use MR against the comet).


If the unit is in range, it does Xd6 S4 hits. If you have 5 or more rats with the bell, the bell/seer cant be hit, just like normal shooting. Less then 5 rats and the bell/seer will split its share of hits with the unit.
The Bell is part of the unit and as a "large target" can be picked out separately, just like normal shooting. There is no random allocation in this case ie. you pick out exactly how many of the hits hit the Large Target and how many get the rest of the unit. I would however use the "monstrous Mounts" rules to work out how many hits get the Grey Seer and how many hit the Bell itself.


While the bell is indeed large and can be picked out for targeting, comet does not pick a target and is almost like a large template weapon. Edit: In order to hit the bell, you must be able to target a unit with the spell, like forked lightning.
The comet is nothing like a large template weapon. Templates hit exactly (and only) what they are covering, while the comet hits every "unit" within it's range of effect.

Just readin your post makes my head spin a little. First you say the Comet "targets" units (which it doesn't) so you use the shooting rules then you say that it doesn't "target" units so you can't hit the bell because it is like a template (which just hit everything under them - which would allow us to hit the bell anyway). If it is treated like shooting then you can allocate the hits however you like between the "regiment" and the "Bell Model". If it is treated like a template then it can hit anything under the template (doesn't work this way either - if you have a single model inside the radius then the whole "unit" gets hit rather than just that single model as per the template rules).

Braad
22-02-2008, 10:14
As the rules say, the unit as a whole is hit, since it is just one unit and not a second unit inside one. If the comet rules say 2D6 per unit, it is 2D6 per unit.

When picking out a target for normal shooting, you divide the arrows, you don't suddenly get extra arrows, so I don't see why in this case you would suddenly get an extra 2D6 hits.

DeathlessDraich
22-02-2008, 12:20
I think most of the posts sound right except maybe each is highlighting 1 aspect.

1st step - 2D6 hits the unit as Braad stated
2nd step - There is no Look out sir

3rd step - Randomising shots - if there are less than 5 RnF models as unwanted, Masque said - pg 74
pg 60 Monstrous mounts cannot be used since Monstrous mounts are single models and the Screaming Bell is a special case.

4th step - "Missile hits normal and magical are randomised". The Comet is not a magic missile but pg110 - all spells are distributed like shooting.
Therefore any hits on the Screaming Bell are randomised - 6 hits Grey Seer and 1-5 on the Bell.

TheDarkDaff
22-02-2008, 22:18
3rd step - Randomising shots - if there are less than 5 RnF models as unwanted, Masque said - pg 74
pg 60 Monstrous mounts cannot be used since Monstrous mounts are single models and the Screaming Bell is a special case.

This is the bit where i get confused. Randomisation is all fine and dandy but pg74 also tells us that

If a character model (including his mount) has a unit strength of 5 or more, then he can be picked out regardless of the rules just given.

So if there are less than 5 RnF models AND the character+mount is less than US5, then (and only then) do we use the randomisation rules to determine the hits between the "regiment" and the "character+mount". Once you have worked this out then you figure out if the hits hit the Bell or the Grey Seer(this small part was my reference to the montrous mount rules).

So i see it working like this.
1st - Determine if the "unit" is hit
2nd - Roll the 2d6 to determine how many hits
3rd - Allocate hits according to shooting rules (IE if the character is over US5 then you can pick it out regardless of the number RnF troops)
4th - Randomise the hits that were allocated to the US5 or greater character and it's mount (if it has one) which depends on the type of mount

xragg
23-02-2008, 02:23
I never said Comet targets units, though after rereading my reply, I can easily see why you thought that. The problem is I used pronouns a bit quick or too often that blurred what I intended to say. I suppose I will always use step by step answers to avoid confusing people in the future of what I am saying. To restate:

1. Comet only effects units within its radius. [I compared this to a template, cause we sometimes never use templates where I play, but just measure 1.5" and 2.5" from the center. I was thinking about the spell vermintide when I made the comparision, partly because it was also asked about in the original post.]

2. Enemies with a line of sight to the Bell may choose to target the Bell or its unit.

3. Comet does not target, like the spell Forked Lightning does. Since it does not target, you cannnot pick out a target.

4. Normal shooting rules for distributing hits are used. 5 or more rats pushing, only the rats are hit. 4 or less rats pushing, the hits are evenly distributed.

DeathlessDraich
23-02-2008, 11:26
This is the bit where i get confused. Randomisation is all fine and dandy but pg74 also tells us that


1) The rule mentioned refers to a character and his mount.

2) The Screaming Bell qualifies since it has US 5 with a Grey Seer.

3) The rule states that if this is so, the character/mount model can be 'picked out'.

4) A unit of shooters can specifically *choose* to target the Bell.

The Comet however does not 'pick out' or 'choose' specific models (unless it is made in Hochland :p) since it has no cognitive abilities- I think xragg agees with this.

Of course it could be argued that the spellcaster could somehow 'direct' fragments of the comet to hit the Bell but this has no foundation since the *Comet will hit even after the spell caster has been slain* - FAQ

5) A spell like Delectable Torture, 'Eadbutt etc will work in the way you stated.
For spells like Forked lightning or shooting like Strangleroots, I would allow (hesitantly) a dice roll.