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Malorian
21-02-2008, 17:32
The DE player in our group has had a long string of losses and we were talking yesterday about how the book seems under powered. I thought I'd through a list together and see what you thought.

lvl 4 sorceress, darkstar cloak 275
lvl 2 sorceress, 2 dispel scrolls 180
lvl 2 sorceress, lifetaker 160
BSB noble w/ hydra banner, coldone, heavy armor 205

10 warriors w/ shields, rcb 120
10 warriors w/ shields, rcb 120
10 warriors w/ shields, rcb 120

chariot w/ spears, rcb 107
chariot w/ spears, rcb 107
5 shades 70
5 shades 70

6 coldone knights w/ banner, banner of murder, musician 246

War hydra 220

For a total of 2000 even.

The mages would be in with the warriors with the general in the center and a chariot inbetween each unit of warriors. Then coldones on one flank and the war hydra on the other. Then the shades go after warmachines and march block.

Is this a good list? Wound it do ok? I know that hydra/coldone knights combo is deadly :evilgrin:

Little Aaad
21-02-2008, 17:47
The DE player in our group has had a long string of losses and we were talking yesterday about how the book seems under powered. I thought I'd through a list together and see what you thought.

lvl 4 sorceress, darkstar cloak 275
lvl 2 sorceress, 2 dispel scrolls 180
lvl 2 sorceress, lifetaker 160
Yeah But use Death Magic. Give the LT mage a Cloak of Dark Sould if poss. If not, make it the Lord instead to do it. Then make the lord a lvl two. Your shades wont hit combat, your spearmen will.

BSB noble w/ hydra banner, coldone, heavy armor 205
Umless CoK unit is bigger, wouldn't bother with HB. Any shooting just will blow it apart. 80pts down.

10 warriors w/ shields, rcb 120
10 warriors w/ shields, rcb 120
10 warriors w/ shields, rcb 120
So gunline. 1 unit is a max. These are supports, not the main body of an army. Go for 3 units of 5 DR with Crossbows. But add musicians.

chariot w/ spears, rcb 107
chariot w/ spears, rcb 107
Don't include Crossbows, 4 shots is just not worth the points. Also, these will be killy, dont make them a balanced unit.

5 shades 70
5 shades 70
This is fine but units of 8 together can draw units to places they would not usually go. Like make heavy cav follow them into a forest and eliminate them for a couple of turns.

6 coldone knights w/ banner, banner of murder, musician 246
Two magic banners in a unit. Big no no. Such a shooting target. Also, you dont want your CoK charging what your hydra doesnt if you use that tactic. Thus The banner wont matter unless Hydra is way infront. Lose BoM

War hydra 220
Yay, no RBT for change!

For a total of 2000 even.

The mages would be in with the warriors NO! Any unit will beat them in combat and kill them all. For that amount of points, I'll take 10 Khorne Chaos Knights with a Hero with Collar of Khorne and make this useless. The chaos are less points too! with the general in the center and a chariot inbetween each unit of warriors. Then coldones on one flank and the war hydra on the other. Then the shades go after warmachines and march block.

Is this a good list? Wound it do ok? No because it is a gunline. I know that hydra/coldone knights combo is deadly :evilgrin:

DE are underpowered, but this list makes them worse. Sorry for being harsh, but DE need to be fast and hitty. Your making an Empire gunline now. Sorry, I know you are not experienced with DE so I am sorry for offending if I did. Follow my advice for improvements and it will instantly be better. And for god sakes dont have all your mages in one unit!

*Wait, ignore what I said about all in one unit. I just read a list with 20 spearmen I am getting confused.

Malorian
21-02-2008, 18:09
Well you could always do something nasty like:

Highborn on dragon w/ heavy armor, sea dragon cloak, shield, lance, seal of ghrond 489
beastmaster on manticore w/ light armor, seadragon cloak, lance 242

5 dark riders w/ mucisian 97
5 dark riders w/ mucisian 97
5 dark riders w/ mucisian 97

chariot w/ spears 97
chariot w/ spears 97
chariot w/ spears 97
chariot w/ spears 97
chariot w/ spears 97
chariot w/ spears 97
chariot w/ spears 97
chariot w/ spears 97

RBT 100
RBT 100

But I was trying to stay away from going over the top too much...

Little Aaad
21-02-2008, 21:13
Well you could always do something nasty like:

Highborn on dragon w/ heavy armor, sea dragon cloak, shield, lance, seal of ghrond 489
Well, This is a good choice. Magic items I would have the Seal on the beastmaster and on this guy have the 4+ ward from CoS and have the Driach of Dark Power too. Much better combo.

beastmaster on manticore w/ light armor, seadragon cloak, lance 242
One thing I can't argue with. Well Done.

5 dark riders w/ mucisian 97
5 dark riders w/ mucisian 97
5 dark riders w/ mucisian 97
Yay, proper shooting core units. You do lack an anvil. Spend some points on a 20 man unit fo Spearmen to drag a charge in. Your call this is cool though.

chariot w/ spears 97
chariot w/ spears 97
chariot w/ spears 97
chariot w/ spears 97
chariot w/ spears 97
chariot w/ spears 97
chariot w/ spears 97
chariot w/ spears 97
This is where the list goes wrong. Cannon Galore. Any strength 7 weaponary will have a heck of a time chomping through these. Big no no. Drop ALL of these.

RBT 100
RBT 100
Fine, but keep the Hydra, they work well with offensive armies.

But I was trying to stay away from going over the top too much...You dont have to go over the top to make a hard list.

Lets start from square one.

Dark Elf Armies absolutly need:

- 2+ units of Dark Riders. Essential for setting up charges or denying ranks. Also proven to be rather good at missile support by being able to get into good places quickly.

- 2+ Mages or a Caddy. Magic defence is vital. Most magic can eat a T3 army and spells like Comet or CoAA (Curse of Arrow Attraction) can kill off a heck of a lot of units.

- Some sort of missile support. Whether that be the Dark Riders, Crossbowmen or Bolt Throwers. These are vital for softening up the units you are about to charge. Killing a rank bonus helps you know!

- Speed! All armies need to be fast, agile, and able to dodge unwanted fights. I am not saying make a Cavalry army, but make sure you deploy right and have enough Skirmishers/Cavalry to get your R&F units out of sticky situations.

- Pick your fights. Much assotiated with the above. Harpies/Dark Riders/Dragons/Anything fast really. Make sure you control their movement. Threaten a part of their army and make the enemy do things they would not usually do. For example, make them Khorne chariots charge your shades in the woods.

- At least one Terror/Fear causing unit/monster. Many would disagree, but very useful when fighting low LD armies. Make the charges devastating.

- Flexibily. Adapt your army to all situations. Being an Elite army, you can't afford to throw units away.

- Last but not least, Support. Every unit in the army needs support when charging, never charge up front and become isolated. Even against the weakest armies. If you do this, you will find you will get lured into a nasty place and cut off from the rest of your force. Once this happens it's RIP unit.

Follow these steps and have another bash at the army. You will find that DE can win a lot.

Malorian
21-02-2008, 22:47
One thing I have to ask Little Aaad, is what is it that beats your lists. I see your DE are 50/50 so what lists do you use and what beats you?

Conotor
22-02-2008, 12:29
You made a gunline. Mages are rather waek, but if u want them, drop all the scrolls, and take offensive items.

Gunlines are boring. Id advise u to make a faster list.


Yes, DE are underpowered. That is why they r being redone soon.

Little Aaad
22-02-2008, 22:39
One thing I have to ask Little Aaad, is what is it that beats your lists. I see your DE are 50/50 so what lists do you use and what beats you?

I do play a lot of gunlines for Dwarves which like 5 of the losses came from. I also struggle against Heavy Cav heavy Brets. Ogres are a pain also.

However I have a doddle against Skaven, O&G, Empire and sometimes High Elves.

If you want, I can PM my list and explain why I took things and what works well teamed with what etc.

Also, I am adding a Manticore and Hydra to my 1500 so expect some more wins :p

Malorian
22-02-2008, 22:42
So you usually play smaller games? (under 2000)

Feel free to put your list and reasons here. We're all here to learn : )

Captain Ahab
23-02-2008, 04:57
ya that would be great

Little Aaad
23-02-2008, 10:35
Dark Elf Noble
Cold One
Heavy Armour
Enchanted Shield
Sea Dragon Cloak
Lance
Seal of Ghrond
Provides a little DD and gives punch to my CoK unit. Note: This is my general because people expect your lord to be it, and they often try and kill my lord with shooting, thus why I am not giving an easy 100 points.

High Sorceress
Level 4
Pegasus
Wand of Doombolt
4+ Ward Save
There to soften units ready for a charge. On a Pegasus for SUPER mobility and can get to knock a rank from any enemy that anything is about to charge. Doesn't directly earn her points back but indirectly earns much more than her cost. A times I have been known to flank with her, and kill a few. Pegasus themselves are not weak you know.

Beastmaster
Manticore
Light Armour
Sea Dragon Cloak
Web of Shadows
With this guy, I pick out enemy mages. He will charge into a unit, and use WoS on the mage and 19/20 times the mage dies. The manticore will sometimes win the combat, but it usually flees from the tough things. Most of the time, it will rally and cause more havoc. Doesn't always earn his points back though.

Dark Riders x 5
Repeating Crossbows
Musician
In support of the Cold Ones. When I first used CoK I found they usually lose to combat res. Thus these were used to flank and negate ranks etc. Now my CoK Break units all of the time.

Dark Riders x 5
Repeating Crossbows
Musician
This has flexibilty. They support either Excecutioners or the Hydra. Same reasons for the CoK support. Though when my E and Hyda team up, they usually ride off for warmachines.

Warriors x 10
Repeating Crossbows
Shields
Refer to RBT's

Cold One Knights x 5
Full Command
For the nasty things. Big R&F units get these in the front. Without ranks, these break anything all the time.

Executioners x 15
Full Command
For moving with my Hydra up the opposite flank for a good position to pose a threat. Being a rather cheap unit, I can afford to shove these out and distract things like Warmachines etc. Hardly ever earn points back but can turn the whole army around for the CoK etc to be nastier. When with the Hydra, they proide a bit of SCR and can break lots of things.

Reaper Bolt Thrower

Reaper Bolt Thrower
With Warriors inbetween them. Same role as the mage but long range instead of mobile. For weakening units for a charge. Support role really.

War Hydra
Goes up a flank and does the same as Execs

1997

Deployment

Hydra..ExecsExecs..DRDRDRDR....................... DRDRDRDR CoKCokCok
Hydra..ExecsExecs................................. ...................................
Hydra............................................. ................HSHS....Manti......
..................................Rbt W rbt......................HSHS....Manti.....

This is my 2k. Won a couple times. Win more than Lose. A 1500 of this list got my battle record.