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charlie_c67
18-03-2005, 12:48
Ok, so we don't get every thread going off topic and talking about what order people think the codexes will be done I suggest it stays in one central thread i.e. here. Just a thought.

Sgt John Keel
18-03-2005, 12:52
Ok, so we don't get every thread going off topic and talking about what order people think the codexes will be done I suggest it stays in one central thread i.e. here. Just a thought.

Omigod, not again.

Tyranids
Black Templars
Umm...
Umm...
Um...
Woodelves
:D

/Adrian

boogle
18-03-2005, 12:57
as said above, the 1st 2 are certs, the rest, i would hazard a guess at:
Orks
Alien Hunters
Eldar
Blood Angels
Hrud
Dark Angels
Tau
Space Wolves
Dark Eldar
Adeptus Mechanicus (based around a campaign maybe)
Necrons
Imperial Guard
Xenos Race
Cursed Founding Marine Chapter book
Chaos

charlie_c67
18-03-2005, 13:02
Omigod, not again...
Sorry!!! Its just it had started in the DE thread. It's one of those perennials, like rending shurikens ;)

rkunisch
18-03-2005, 15:41
boogle, I still don't belive that the remake of the Orcs will be that soon (and that is beside the question if it would make sense to do it).

Have fun,

Rolf.

t-tauri
18-03-2005, 15:47
After Nids and BT I believe "those who know" have hinted at another codex which was fairly easy to write so I'd anticipate another marine chapter codex to come near Christmas with a new plastic set (devastators and the Dark Angels??).

Sgt John Keel
18-03-2005, 16:04
Sorry!!! Its just it had started in the DE thread. It's one of those perennials, like rending shurikens ;)

I still mourn that we don't get rending ponies. :(

/Adrian

boogle
18-03-2005, 17:46
Can't see it being 2 marine Codexes back to back

On the topic of Orks, i put them early because they need minimal model rejigging, and just a few rules adjustments (the Vehicle Boxed Set, Boxed Sets for Skarboys, Lootas, and Kommandos, should all get models)

All other Codexes will need serious rejigging both in terms of models and rules (Eldar especially)

lord_blackfang
18-03-2005, 19:07
I thought it had been pretty much confirmed that Eldar were #3. Didin't someone say a few weeks back that there were being playtested already?

I'd love to see Orks ASAP, but I think that desiging the multi-vehicle kit alone will probably take them a year.

Malakai
18-03-2005, 19:16
I was hoping for Eldar as #3 aswell, but after abit of thought I don't believe there is any way that they can do it. Eldar need more models and rule fixes than any other race. Couple that with the "looking at the race as a whole" thing I don't believe we will see the eldar make a return anytime soon. But it's still anyone's guess. And guessing is fun ;)


Malakai

Gen.Steiner
18-03-2005, 19:54
boogle: Hrud!? Hrud!? Are you nutso!? Everyone knows it'll be Squ- I mean, Demiurg. :p

Servo11
18-03-2005, 20:26
Oh man... "Squa...I mean Demiurg" would be the BEST. But I doubt it.

sulla
18-03-2005, 20:26
I was hoping for Eldar as #3 aswell, but after abit of thought I don't believe there is any way that they can do it. Eldar need more models and rule fixes than any other race. Couple that with the "looking at the race as a whole" thing I don't believe we will see the eldar make a return anytime soon. But it's still anyone's guess. And guessing is fun ;)


Malakai

Not neccessarily. In the past, GW have released a codex/armybook and then released the miniatures required at their leisure afterwards...the original Eldar 'dex and the hordes of chaos armybook for example. The current models, while not being gorgeous, are functional. They could release codex eldar with just a new wraithlord, special characters, plastic grav platform and leave updated aspect warriors until a later date...

Servo11
18-03-2005, 20:44
I still think the Aspect Warriors are fine... some are great. Leave them alone. I would rather have Wraithlord, WarWalker, Rangers, and JETBIKES! (I suppose Shining Spears would be necessary, then).

Even people who do not think these are horrid models must admit they are old and out of date.

Gen.Steiner
18-03-2005, 21:41
Nope, I'm quite happy with the Eldar jetbikes as they stand. Sorry Servo11, but there's always someone who's going to be awkward. :D

On topic tho', methinks the next 'dex after Templars will be Orks. This is because "da orkses is da reel enemee of da oomies an dey noes it so wen we iz bak we will bee layin da urt on dem for not makin uz da uvver mob in da starter set for too edishuns nah. Dem zoggin marketin squigs wot dunnit, i bet."

Servo11
18-03-2005, 21:51
ok....you like the Jetbikes. Allow me to rephrase: "The Jetbikes need to be redone because their riders are sub-par...or just plain suck."

There, I dare you to say you like the riders. And beware, my forum-posting-lie-detector is on.

Sgt John Keel
18-03-2005, 21:55
I want the Mechanicus, but that is probably not to be. Damned be GW.

I think the Orks are after* the Templars, but I have no gut feeing so I can't feel good about it.

*Well, they're definitely after the Templars.

/Adrian

Mojaco
18-03-2005, 22:04
Only recently the Space Marines were released and they did not get that many models straight away. Their models were released before and after the release. Even now we'll be waiting for the assault terminators for a while.

Though ofcourse Marines are a special case, this could be true for more of their new releases.

I have a lot of hope for Orks and Eldar. Both 2006 is what I guess.

Servo11
18-03-2005, 22:05
My understanding was that after BT was a Codex that was "very easy to write", was not Eldar or Orks, and that the Imp-xenos-imp order was in effect.

This leads me to believe Tau. Also, after looking through some old rumours, wasn't Harlequines supposed to come out in 2005? I know it is a long shot, but it fits all the above criteria and maybe the grand Eldar scheme is far enough along for this to happen. Like I said, a long shot.

lord_blackfang
18-03-2005, 22:08
I was hoping for Eldar as #3 aswell, but after abit of thought I don't believe there is any way that they can do it. Eldar need more models and rule fixes than any other race. Couple that with the "looking at the race as a whole" thing I don't believe we will see the eldar make a return anytime soon. But it's still anyone's guess. And guessing is fun ;)


Malakai

Even if they're #3 they're still a year off, giving GW 9 more months fore rules development and playtesting. That's plenty.

As for models... at least they HAVE models for everything. Including the basic transport, finally :p They can be replaced slowly. There are armies out there that don't have models for some of their Troops choices or have models far far more outdated than any Eldar one.

DeathWish
18-03-2005, 23:07
A drinking buddy of mine told me the next two xenos Codex's after Tyranids will be Eldar and Orks (possibly not in that order).

I'm just looking forward to seeing the new model ranges :) (well, to a certain extent cause for some reason new models seem to coincide with me wanting new armies :o )

DW

*edit* The drinking buddy isn't some just random drunk I know but someone who works in the company. Just in case you were wondering ;)

Shining_Spear
19-03-2005, 00:02
About the guy having allegedly playtested the Eldar, I believe Engel shot that rumor down a while back on the old Portent. He said they hadn't even started.

dark flame
19-03-2005, 01:09
I seem to remember there being no doubt about it that after 'Nids and BT it would be Eldar and Orks. So far, there seems to be no word on which will be first though, and anyone who says anything is just guessing. However, whichever one they're doing, they'll have likely started to work on the background and fluff parts at the very least, as the Marine Codices aren't supposed to upset the time it takes for the other codices to be done very much, as they are mostly based off the already completed Space Marine Codex.

charlie_c67
20-03-2005, 00:22
Engel knows more of the order than most so anything he says, like eldar ain't codex number 4, then he's almost certainly right.

boogle
20-03-2005, 01:01
i'm going with an Adversaries theme:
Space Marines (Ultras) vs Nids
Black Templars vs Orks
etc

Zechs Merquise
20-03-2005, 06:04
I remember eading somewhere else on here, that it was strongly hinted at GD Atlanta, that the Orks will be after Black templars.

Zechs
20-03-2005, 13:28
i'm going with an Adversaries theme:
Space Marines (Ultras) vs Nids
Black Templars vs Orks
etc

It's makes sense, maybe after BT vs Orks we'll get Ordo Xenos vs Eldar. Although I have a Black Templars army, it would be better if GW release Orks and Eldar before Templars. These armies needs more updates than Templars.

TomKamakazi
20-03-2005, 13:45
First of all: YAY PORTENTIS BACK! (How slow am I?)

Now;
Any one ever consider the frightening posibility that they are going to relese the 'Nids Codex, then the Black Templars, then just sit on their creative hands for 12 to 18 months?

Scary? Yes

Possible?... probably not.

Imbroglio
21-03-2005, 09:09
As has been referred to previously, playtesting on the Eldar has not even been seriously begun yet; the impression I've gotten in the last few weeks is that 'Eldar' will be looked at as a broad concept, and the various books and fluff will be created together. Importantly this has NOT happened yet, and as far as I've seen it is barely in the planning stages.

As far as the emergence of the Demiurg as a playable force, I'd expect these guys later in the 4th Ed. lifetime. Generally most people would agree that releasing a new army before you complete updates on existing armies - look at the hassle over Ogre Kingsdoms coming ahead of the Wood Elves in FB. That said, some codicies from 3rd Ed are still up to date and modern - Necrons, Tau, Daemon/Witch Hunters are - and may well be relegated behind a new army.

The most important thing to remember is that there is not, on any table anywhere, a running order of army release. There is nothing more substantial than a fluffy idea in the mind of a planning guru at GW HQ.

We can just speculate,

-- Imbroglio

Delicious Soy
21-03-2005, 09:35
I'm inclined to say orks, simply because much of the improving is in model terms rather than playesting (at least IMHO). Orks have a list where the base is sound, it just needs some ability to theme it better (ie Clan rules you fools!). In terms of Xenos races in need of an upgrade, they are the ones I would find the easiest. If playtesting hasn't started for Eldar then I guess they're out of the running, IIRC the development period is about a year.

charlie_c67
21-03-2005, 10:53
It's makes sense, maybe after BT vs Orks we'll get Ordo Xenos vs Eldar. Although I have a Black Templars army, it would be better if GW release Orks and Eldar before Templars. These armies needs more updates than Templars.

Unfortunatly it's not that simple. Yes they may need more attention but that takes more time. Therefore it makes sense to release a codex that needs very little changing before and after one that needs a major refit.

Look at how the first 3 have panned out.
1. SM's - Minor tweaking, introduction of traits, background updated a little. New minis. crap painting in some cases.
2. Nids - Major changes, rules & profile revisions, background updated/expanded, Extensive new mini selection, New crap paint scheme.
3. BT's - Based on SM dex, expand background, few new minis.

Therefore that gives more time to work on dex number 4.

In theory.

glimli
21-03-2005, 11:34
knowing gw theyll do templars before eldar and orks

rkunisch
21-03-2005, 11:36
The Tau idea sounds not too far fetched for me. Most of the models are there, some add-ons and you are done. It definitely is an "easy" codex. With the additional focus from Forge World it may just be fitting - but then when ever have Forge World and the Studio coordinated their efforts. :rolleyes:

Have fun,

Rolf.

t-tauri
21-03-2005, 11:48
I don't think we'll see a Tau revision for a while simply because of the Taros campaign and the Tau focus in that. Too much Tau in too short a time. All the Tau really need to be playable is a shield drone rule revision. Everything else is fine.

I think we'll see a quick marine codex after BTs to fill the gaps to Ork/Eldar which need extensive model/rule revisions respectively. Somewhere on the old board there was a comment to the effect that the next codex after BT was one which needed little development work which implies it was something for which the work was done in 4th edition development. Space Marines have already had much of their rules and models developed, they just await a release. Dark/Blood Angels to come with the plastic devastator squad is what I feel we'll see. The only model development would be a plastic sprue of chapter specific bits and a few metal special character revisions.

charlie_c67
21-03-2005, 11:55
knowing gw theyll do templars before eldar and orks
Just an observation, but Engel had a guide on how to post. Included things like use proper punctuation and spelling. Thought you might like to know.

As to doing BT's after nids. That's confirmed and with good reason. It'll help reduce the number of power gamers significantly in one go.

@t-tauri: when's the Taros campaign due though? As I understood it FW and GW's release schedules weren't really linked in any way, if u look at what's coming out at the mo you'll see what I mean. GW's gearing up for nids, FW's gearing up for IG/Tau.

t-tauri
21-03-2005, 12:06
@t-tauri: when's the Taros campaign due though? As I understood it FW and GW's release schedules weren't really linked in any way, if u look at what's coming out at the mo you'll see what I mean. GW's gearing up for nids, FW's gearing up for IG/Tau.
Should be out May/June I think. If GW were planning on redoing Tau soon then the big £45 IA3 book could very quickly be invalidated-as early as six months after publication-by a new Tau codex.

Look at the way IA2 had rules to match the new SM codex in many ways. The Forgeworld rules are quite tightly written (by GW standards) to match and not invalidate existing rules (nice work, Warwick). That's why I don't think they'll redo Tau soon. Imagine the cries when a huge expensive book has invalid rules so quickly.

Of course, I could be completely wrong in trying to apply logic to GW's release schedule. :)

charlie_c67
21-03-2005, 12:16
Of course, I could be completely wrong in trying to apply logic to GW's release schedule. :)

Course the other possibility is that it's been written with a new tau dex in mind and it's a precursor to book 4. That would be a scarily advanced piece of forward thinking were it true :eek:

glimli
21-03-2005, 12:25
Just an observation, but Engel had a guide on how to post. Included things like use proper punctuation and spelling. Thought u might like to know.




yOu tink tjat waz bat tiping?? You've got a lot to learn in ways of gimli syntax. A If you want to criticise others for not using punctuation (my spelling was fine), you might like to have your own grammar and spelling perfect. In addition, your syntax is not very good, you have many incomplete and truncated sentences. Also FYI "nids " should have a capital N, "mo" is spelt moment and "u" is spelt you.

charlie_c67
21-03-2005, 12:40
yOu tink tjat waz bat tiping?? You've got a lot to learn in ways of gimli syntax. A If you want to criticise others for not using punctuation (my spelling was fine), you might like to have your own grammar and spelling perfect. In addition, your syntax is not very good, you have many incomplete and truncated sentences. Also FYI "nids " should have a capital N, "mo" is spelt moment and "u" is spelt you.

You'll be happy to note that the typo has been changed and that nids and mo are acceptable terms (i.e. the mods use them too)

Also I'm dyslexic. Which is ironically hard to spell. :p

glimli
21-03-2005, 12:48
remember, dyslexia LURES!

Ursid
21-03-2005, 15:44
Fact:
Nids of course are about to come out. May begins the roll out.

After Nids book the BT book will be out mid fall or winter of this year as confirmed saturday at the ATL GD

Theory:
They have hinted at several books for the furture after the BT dex but they have said more than once they will be on a revolving release schedule of; Xenos-SM-Xenos-SM-Xenos-SM-Xenos until each chapter dex is redone and the older Xenos are completed. So after BT should be Orks of Eldar. Now saturday they continued to hint at the fact that although concept sketches are being done of some new ork vehicles, more focus seem to be releasing the Eldar after the Templars. It was also said that the Dark Eldar would probably not be in the main Eldar book anymore (as hinted at last year) but they will receive their own full book in the future. Ordos Xenos is a mystery. At the moment, and this could change with the wind, it sounds like the other SM books and Xenos books will be done before Alienhunters. For the last two years they have made comments like "that's a ways off in the future" or "it'll be done definitely within the next 6 years". So unfortunately we may have to wait for our friendly Deathwatch Ordos.

Sai-Lauren
21-03-2005, 15:55
Should be out May/June I think. If GW were planning on redoing Tau soon then the big £45 IA3 book could very quickly be invalidated-as early as six months after publication-by a new Tau codex.

Look at the way IA2 had rules to match the new SM codex in many ways. The Forgeworld rules are quite tightly written (by GW standards) to match and not invalidate existing rules (nice work, Warwick). That's why I don't think they'll redo Tau soon. Imagine the cries when a huge expensive book has invalid rules so quickly.

Of course, I could be completely wrong in trying to apply logic to GW's release schedule. :)
Well, don't forget that IA1 came out whilst the studio was working on the Guard codex, and IA2 came out after Witch Hunters, and before Marines. It's also a little suspect that of all the races to get included in an IA book, it's Tau before Eldar or Orks (some kind of semi-official ork VDR would go down a treat actually), and maybe this is the Tau players reward for the massive expansion from SoC.

I'm personally in the "doubt-it-will-be-Tau" camp, but I wouldn't be surprised if Tau got a brush-up release sooner, rather than a full overhaul later.

t-tauri
21-03-2005, 16:14
Well, don't forget that IA1 came out whilst the studio was working on the Guard codex, and IA2 came out after Witch Hunters, and before Marines.
That's a very good point. Could IA3 be being used to playtest a new Tau codex?? So either it's definitely Tau after BT or it definitely isn't. :confused:

This six month information window is cracking me up.

Karhedron
22-03-2005, 21:48
I thought it had been pretty much confirmed that Eldar were #3. Didin't someone say a few weeks back that there were being playtested already?
Eldar have certainly not been confirmed as the 3rd codex, they may be but if so then the studio are keeping tight wraps on it. This is from GD Atlanta



Basic work on the Eldar has started. Phil hinted at new aspect warriors. The same answer was given for Orks: A lot of preliminary discussion, but not much actual work so far. Alien Hunters are even worse off.




I'd love to see Orks ASAP, but I think that desiging the multi-vehicle kit alone will probably take them a year.
Wll the following should be taken with a large pinch of salt but may provide insight on how the Orks are doing.
DakkaDakka - I take no responsibility for its accuracy



I have been given information from a Games Workshop Staff Member who has been in contact with someone from the GW Studio, which gave me this information:

"The Black Templars will be able to purchase vows that were originally in their codex, but these are no longer free, merely an upgrade now. Also, the rule where Black Templars charged forward towards the enemy if they failed a leadership test has been changed. The rule is now that if they fail the test, they run away as normal, but if they pass the test, they go an extra D6" (note: NOT 2D6" as the rule was previously) towards the enemy, meaning that the rule now actually makes sense and works as it is meant to without being overpowered."

As for the Orks, I have also been told that the Ork Vehicles are to be re-done this Autumn, which is a much earlier release date than previously thought. Which vehicles this will mean are re-done I do not know at the moment, but expect to see the Ork Vehicles to be re-done around Autumn this year. As for the Orks themselves, they are not to be re-done until Christmas next year (2006).

A fascinating titbit if it is true. Plastics generally take 12-24 months to develop so if they start work on new Orky vehicles this autumn then Christmas 2006 would actually be quite soon to see them hit the selves (although not impossible). My suspicion is that the Orky vehicles will not be on sale this autumn. We saw the new Wave Serpent about 9 months before it hit the shelves so I am sure we would have heard more rumours if new ork stuff was in the works. Rather I suspect that they may start work on the ork vehicles this autumn with an eye to releasing them in time for Christmas 2006. That is my guess anyway.

Boduddley
30-03-2005, 01:09
:D
Here's a guess!!!
Alien Hunters
Eldar
Blood Angels
Hrud
Dark Angels
Orks
Space Wolves
Dark Eldar
Imperial Guard
Xenos Race
Chaos
Tau
Necrons
Maybe a new Army
:confused:

owen matthew
30-03-2005, 09:55
That's a very good point. Could IA3 be being used to playtest a new Tau codex?? So either it's definitely Tau after BT or it definitely isn't. :confused:

This six month information window is cracking me up.


My money is on the Tau, with something like two new units and a couple new models, after the Templars...just a hunch, a serious gut feeling. A larger gut feeling than the one 12 Budweisers gave me last Friday night at my friends birthday party. I would put money on it

boogle
30-03-2005, 10:11
well, if it is Tau, then i would imagine that the following stuff could be added:
Railrifles for Pathfinders (thats almost a given, surprised it has been put in the reprints already)
Weapon Drones - these would have a Single Crisis Weapon mounted and you could only have 1 if the sqaud leader had a Drone Controller
Tau Auxilliaries - as per the Pathfinders
Maybe the Kroot Mercs rules in there as an Appendix

Colonial Rifle
30-03-2005, 11:32
My guess after BT is orks, simply because most of the range is there already and the list is essentially sound 'as is' - The Eldar need a MAJOR refit after Gav's failed experiment, a real nuts and bolts rework of what they do.

I think Tau might get a new codex sooner than might be expected. 4th edition has only deepened the flaws in the list and quite a lot of units need tweaking. More options to at least counter some of the new tricks they are giving to other armies would be welcome (Siren anyone?).

Karhedron
30-03-2005, 17:57
The Eldar need a MAJOR refit after Gav's failed experiment, a real nuts and bolts rework of what they do.
If you are not a fan of 3rd edition Eldar then brace yourself a little. Gav is still involved in the development of Eldar for the new codex. I do not know how he is involved or to what extent. I would have thought his Loremaster role would keep him fairly busy so he may just be lending a hand with conceptualisation but as far as I know, Gav is confirmed as being on board for the new Eldar codex in some capacity.

Personally I hope they take a look at the way Eldar have been implemented in Epic. They are devastatingly fast and the "Hit and run" rules make them like trying to fight a ghost. However if caught out in the open then they tend to die very fast. Basically they work in exactly the way Eldar should work, using their speed and technology to keep out of trouble. No more massive slow Guardian squads and other aberations.

Inquisitor Engel
30-03-2005, 18:11
:D
Here's a guess!!!
Alien Hunters
Sorry to say it, but you got off on completely the wrong foot and never recovered. ;) Alien Hunters is on the back-back-back burner for now.


Plastics generally take 12-24 months to develop so if they start work on new Orky vehicles this autumn then Christmas 2006 would actually be quite soon to see them hit the selves (although not impossible).
The Ork vehicles were started last June, at least basic tinkering with how they would go together. I know, I saw the first model made of all bitz and peices lying around. The designer was most frustrated with how long it was going to take.

wldside
30-03-2005, 19:46
The Tau are more than likely not going to be redone anytime soon. Granted as a Tau player I'd love it if they did rework our dex within the next year but realistically there are quite a few dexes that need it more than we do. But then again who knows maybe the GW Dev team will suddenly decide they want to push Tau as the next "must have" army which would mean we get a new dex sooner than expected. But then again this is all speculation and sometime I honestly think they make their release schedules by throwing darts.

philbrad2
30-03-2005, 21:54
If you are not a fan of 3rd edition Eldar then brace yourself a little. Gav is still involved in the development of Eldar for the new codex. I do not know how he is involved or to what extent. I would have thought his Loremaster role would keep him fairly busy so he may just be lending a hand with conceptualisation but as far as I know, Gav is confirmed as being on board for the new Eldar codex in some capacity.

News coming out of Atlanta was the Eldar could expect a MAJOR hike in psychic powers, I expect them to be on top of the 40K psyker ladder. Can't remember the exact quote I read but something along the lines of "If SM Librarians are now considered powerful psykers wait for the Eldar!"

I think Eldar/Orks are pretty certain for the next codex slot after BT's. With the work going on with Ork vehicles I'd think they would have the edge on the next codex slot of the two. Orks got a huge revamp of troop figures in 3rd ed but the vehicles are some of the oldest in the 40k range and long due for a revamp. As to rules. I find the current rules/codex pretty sound so I wouldn't expect major revamps for 4th ed. The Eldar well, work is evidently underway on them in one form or another. Without knowing how far the revamp is down the road its difficult to comment. My thinking is if the Eldar codex were a year away the Wave Serpent could have been held back as a supporting release for the race. We've waited this long for the model and regardless of your feelings in it - would another 12months delay really make that much difference :confused:

The Tau - well .... Just because FW produced IA2 around the time of Codex:SM doesn't neccessarily mean the Tau codex & IA3 will go hand in hand. IA1 centred on what must be the biggest range covered by IA, the Imperial Guard - and of course the Guard 'dex was out around then too (I'll get me coat :) ) SM's are probably the next biggest range in the FW/IA 'arsenal' so it would be expected that IA2 would could come out around the time of the revamped Codex:SM. As for the Tau well I personally dont think that a revamp of their codex would be warranted so relatively soon after their initial codex came out. The Eldar codex - or the fact in a number of gamers minds the fact Gav T had a hand in its development is probably the most in need of update. The range of models did get something of a refresh with 3rd ed but there are still a lot of old models out in the mainstream Eldar range. GW have updated virtually all the SM core miniature range, including interestingly Tigurius and Calgar. Both still excellent minis, is GW on a 10 year refresh calendar for minis. If so the Eldar could expect a number of updates to their range. Phoenix Lord have been withdrawn from the stores, perhaps they have been withdrawn because new minis are being planned?

Alienhunters - Well GW seem evidently not to want to go down the armylist route of =I= and Retinue, Stormtroopers and IG and specialist SoB/GK units. The feedback I've had is they want to make the AH's a bit different. Afterall what use are Alienhunters if they've no 'new' Aliens to fight. I'm sure GW would like players to get revised Xenos armies before unleashing another =I= variant army. DH's was an army that in part, tied in with the EoT codex and CSM codex. WH's rode along on its 'coat tails' but also had ties back to Codex IG released before it. I'm with ENGEL, I think AH's are on a back burner, very much a niche 'developers' army than one GW marketing would like the studio to develop and bring money in.

One thing is sure SM's sell so expect at least one army a year to be SM based for the for the next few years. My thinking is the next Chapter codex after BT's will be either SW or BA.

My two penneth ...

:cool:

ferrus
31-03-2005, 00:24
The Tau - well .... Just because FW produced IA2 around the time of Codex:SM doesn't neccessarily mean the Tau codex & IA3 will go hand in hand. IA1 centred on what must be the biggest range covered by IA, the Imperial Guard - and of course the Guard 'dex was out around then too (I'll get me coat :) ) SM's are probably the next biggest range in the FW/IA 'arsenal' so it would be expected that IA2 would could come out around the time of the revamped Codex:SM. As for the Tau well I personally dont think that a revamp of their codex would be warranted so relatively soon after their initial codex came out. The Eldar codex - or the fact in a number of gamers minds the fact Gav T had a hand in its development is probably the most in need of update. The range of models did get something of a refresh with 3rd ed but there are still a lot of old models out in the mainstream Eldar range. GW have updated virtually all the SM core miniature range, including interestingly Tigurius and Calgar. Both still excellent minis, is GW on a 10 year refresh calendar for minis. If so the Eldar could expect a number of updates to their range. Phoenix Lord have been withdrawn from the stores, perhaps they have been withdrawn because new minis are being planned?
I have a suspicious though that theywill do "seocnd editions" codices (with new cover" of all codices post-Tau (which was the first of the new style). They will use it to update rules, clear errors and consolidate new rules (like railguns and human auxerillaries).

Prehaos in the 2nd editon codices will be accompined by new mdoels e.g. Platic Choas Lord/Terminators.

the spook
31-03-2005, 00:29
First of all, I'm just happy to see Portent back on the airwaves.

Second, just to throw my two cents in, I'm more inclined to think that either Orks or Tau are next after BT, with a slightly stronger inclination towards Orks. Engel has stated that work on the new Ork vehicles is well in progress, and as well as a new Ork Fig that was seen at the Atlanta Gamesday (something I remember seeing on Dakka) If not the Orks, then i'd say that the only other existing Xenos that fits the 'easy codex' has got to be the Tau.

The only other xenos races are the Eldars (too far off) or the Necron. Thus we are left with Orks (also said to be in state of disrepair), the tau or a new race altogether different. Yet since we've been told it's an easy do-over, that suggests an established race. So, back to Tau and Orks, of the two, i do seem to remember Engel saying that the Tau wasn't going to be it either. That leaves Orks in the closest state to being done or something unanticipated...

-perhaps the Necrons? There have been 'outsider' rumours floating around for a long time now...

boogle
31-03-2005, 00:46
ferrus; i think you mean Railrifles rather than Railguns

Wintermute
02-04-2005, 08:36
The next Codex, after the Nid Codex - out in June, will be the BT Codex together with the Assault Terminators and other BT Marine Squad boxes.

After the BT Codex? Probably one of the Eldar Codexes- GW are currently planning two, the first with Craftworld Eldar and the second with the Harlequins and Eldar Pirate forces.

macbeth
02-04-2005, 08:38
After the BT Codex? Probably one of the Eldar Codexes- GW are currently planning two, the first with Craftworld Eldar and the second with the Harlequins and Eldar Pirate forces.


You place the Harlequins with the pirates and the dark?

I thought the harlies would be with the craftworlds and the pirates/dark eldars all on their own...

boogle
02-04-2005, 08:50
The next Codex, after the Nid Codex - out in June, will be the BT Codex together with the Assault Terminators and other BT Marine Squad boxes.

After the BT Codex? Probably one of the Eldar Codexes- GW are currently planning two, the first with Craftworld Eldar and the second with the Harlequins and Eldar Pirate forces.

and your source on this is?

it has been said by people in the studio itself that the Eldar are a massive project and one that is underway, but no where near ready for an early 2006 release, it is looking more likely to be Orks IF and only IF the Vehicle Box is nearing completion, if not, then it will be some other race.

Wintermute
02-04-2005, 09:25
and your source on this is?

I'm not going to reveal my source am I? But its more reliable than a red shirt. ;)

Astador
02-04-2005, 22:12
I was told after 'Nids is BT. Then Eldar, and Xeno's Hunter and DA. Plus new plastics for chapter specifics in 2006-07. Don't expect BT before Christmas, that would be luck, and I wouldn't expect more marine plastics for awhile after the last few on the preorders.
Cheers,
FLIP.

Brimstone
03-04-2005, 10:46
BT's are due before Christmas, expect them after the Wood Elves in late Qtr 3/Qtr 4.

As for what's up after that I remain unconvinced about the Tau and if I was going to put any money on it (which I'm not) then I'd put my cash down on Orks or Eldar.

Akuma
03-04-2005, 12:10
seems strange to put BT before christmass as most of the models thay will use are oput right now wouldnt it be more profitable for GW to relese some whole new army like Orcs or Eldrar ???

t-tauri
03-04-2005, 12:58
seems strange to put BT before christmass as most of the models thay will use are oput right now wouldnt it be more profitable for GW to relese some whole new army like Orcs or Eldrar ???
They'll put out the generic terminator assault squad and sell loads of those to SM players. A Templar army box will sell as well as many other armies, especially if it's got a load of termies and a crusader in. SM players will want it for Christmas if it's an early way to score Terminators and a limited figure even if they don't play Templars.

Akuma
03-04-2005, 14:24
Yeah you'r right - i forgot how many people run SM armys now :rolleyes:

Rich
03-04-2005, 15:27
Hey guys. Great to see Portent up and running again (albeit in a temporary capacity).

I have to admit that I am suprised that no-one has suggested Space Wolves as a possibility for early release - they are, after all, the only chapter to already have a specific sprue and could easily be released without any accompanying models (possibly a remake of the Ragnar Blackmane and ulric models?).

I think Orks are a reasonable guess for the codex to follow black templars, because the two are obvious contenders and could be packaged together with scenarios etc. When you think about it, you have ultramarines and 'nids, released with battle for macragge, and now you have BTs - release them with orks and a campaign book for beginners, and you have a winning combination.

Lion El Jason
03-04-2005, 15:43
Ease of production of space marine books is not an issue.

GW will be putting as much development time/ miniatures design time and whatnot as for every other codex. Its not a case of cut & paste the SM codex, they will be fully developed independant codices.

ferrus
03-04-2005, 15:44
I thought the harlies would be with the craftworlds and the pirates/dark eldars all on their own...
pirates are crafworld eldar on the path of the outcas, so I think they would fit in better as part of the craftworld list.

Celrath
04-04-2005, 22:21
i dont know how accurate this info is and it is all rumors but i had heard Tyranids,BT,AH,Orks i heard eldar were coming in 06 and orks were as well far as i know orks are getting some updated vehicle rules near the end of this year

Inquisitor Engel
04-04-2005, 22:29
Alien Hunters will take a long time. Stop guessing it. :p They're on the backburner.

Unfortunate, but I'm willing to wait.

Asher
04-04-2005, 22:30
I have to admit that I am suprised that no-one has suggested Space Wolves as a possibility for early release - they are, after all, the only chapter to already have a specific sprue and could easily be released without any accompanying models (possibly a remake of the Ragnar Blackmane and ulric models?).


At the last GD Phil Kelly mentoned that the Space Wolves have a good codex already and that they will be done eventually. It seems as if they will have to wait for a new codex for a while. Phil is right however, of the 4 major chapters they have the best codex to date, the others need a revision more than the Space Wolves.

TheSonOfAbbadon
04-04-2005, 22:30
Methinks they'll be called Xenos hunters when/if they come out.

It just sounds more gothic-y than Alien hunters.

charlie_c67
05-04-2005, 09:20
Methinks they'll be called Xenos hunters when/if they come out.

It just sounds more gothic-y than Alien hunters.

Like Daemonhunters and Witch hunters you mean? :rolleyes:

Karhedron
05-04-2005, 09:40
seems strange to put BT before christmass as most of the models thay will use are oput right now wouldnt it be more profitable for GW to relese some whole new army like Orcs or Eldrar ???
Rumour has it that Black Templars will also get plastic Scouts and maybe a new Land Raider variant as well. Once packaged up as Initiates, Novices etc, that will provide plenty of boxes for the release as well as a new tank. I have to say that my money is on a September release for Black Templars since we know this is the release date for the Assault terminators. That would make them just before Welves.

I have to say that the variant LR rumour should be taken with a large pinch of salt. I only heard the rumour once and it hsa not been substantiated by anything since. The rumour was that it would sacrifice some transport capacity in return for a heavy weapons load. Effectively turning the Land Raider in heavy battle tank.

sigur
05-04-2005, 10:17
Methinks they'll be called Xenos hunters when/if they come out.

It just sounds more gothic-y than Alien hunters.

It's amazing in what ways people use the word "gothic" nowadays.

Sai-Lauren
05-04-2005, 10:56
Rumour has it that Black Templars will also get plastic Scouts and maybe a new Land Raider variant as well.

Well, considering they already produced the Crusader for BT, I would personally say that getting a new variant, especially anything going against BT combat philosophies, is unlikely. They might get something like rhinos with assault ramps, but probably their main weakness is vs medium/heavy armour (no squad heavy weapons and no devastators).

Maybe if a chapter like the Salamanders (although they're supposed to have invented the whirlwind) were going to get the full treatment would a heavier Raider get done, or possibly as a new vehicle for DA (BT have the Crusader, SW invented the Pred Annihilator IIRC, whilst BA have the Baal Pred) - maybe the Spartan will make a return - say as either a larger, more heavily armed raider that can carry a full terminator squad, or as a command vehicle/ mobile teleport homer to bring termies down more accurately.

Asher
05-04-2005, 11:22
Rumour has it that Black Templars will also get plastic Scouts and maybe a new Land Raider variant as well.


Considering the description of the particular Land Raider by the guy who posted the rumor it is very unlikely. It is supposed to be a skimmer and have some other freaky stuff on it. Its in the same catergory as the rumored battlecannon-dread that half of the people belived. :rolleyes:
As for scouts...its wishful thinking I guess. But chances are there.

risK
05-04-2005, 11:22
DA will very likely get the Mortis Pattern Dreadnought, maybe Ravenwing variants of Speeders... but I'd nevermind another vehicel on the heavier side.
:D

Asher
05-04-2005, 11:27
DA will very likely get the Mortis Pattern Dreadnought, maybe Ravenwing variants of Speeders... but I'd nevermind another vehicel on the heavier side.
:D

Not sure about the Mortis. It is a FW only thing I belive, especialy considering the new all-rules-have-to-match-sellable-minis-rule by GW that crippled our dreadnought weapons.
Personally I'd like to see Ravenwing Jetbikes...a relic form the heresy.
Some improved Terminators would be cool to.

Darkblade
05-04-2005, 16:10
You'd think that Forgeworld and GW working so closely, they'd support the rules for Mortis pattern Dreads. I never have quite worked out the FW/GW relationship.

Karhedron
05-04-2005, 19:03
I never have quite worked out the FW/GW relationship.
Forgeworld make stuff for more experienced modellers and gamers. Their stuff is intended and as a niche market. To some extent they deliberately try to avoid making FW stuff "must-have" items in normal games. The idea is that players should be able to build the most competative units from stuff in stores. The assumption is that anyone who is willing to buy FW stuff has probably been in the game long enough to be able to friendly games with units that may not always be tournement legal.

Col.Gravis
05-04-2005, 21:06
Seems to be the in thing to predict lol,

so starting with whats known,

BT
Orks (or Eldar)
Dark Angels
Eldar (or Orks)
Space Wolves
Tau (or Dark Eldar)
Blood Angels
Dark Eldar (or Tau)
Alien Hunters
....

What we do know from last year is its supposedly gonna be about a 7 year cycle between Codex versions for each army/race and I seem to remember from last years UK GT Seminar (damn it, I had it all written down on old Portent!) that they already had a fair idea on the next 6 years of codex releases, I'll see if I've got it anywhere else, but I've got something niggling in my mind that there were 3 anoymous codex (i.e. ones which we are not already familiar with in terms of their being an existing equvilient) Xenos could be one of those or it might not, either way that leaves TWO new codex.

My own reckoning is one new alien race and one campaign book with varient lists.

Misfratz
05-04-2005, 22:54
No-ones made any provision for GW's planning to go awry. Perhaps the Eldar project will take longer than expected? Perhaps the Ork vehicle kit will hit problems in pre-production? It's entirely possible that we could see another SM Codex after Black Templars. From what I'm hearing regarding Orks and Eldar [in this thread] it strikes me that a timescale of 12 months until release might be too tight.

If I had to choose I'd have thought it'd be Orks before Eldar though.

Sai-Lauren
06-04-2005, 09:02
You'd think that Forgeworld and GW working so closely, they'd support the rules for Mortis pattern Dreads. I never have quite worked out the FW/GW relationship.

GW makes what the accountants decide would be profitable, whilst FW makes whatever Tony Cottrell imagines. :p

Basically, they're a sub-division of GW, in the same way as Black Library are - BL could produce all the codices, WD and so on, but they don't because they only focus on the fiction aspect. Equally, FW focus on the "wow, cool :cool: . How much? :eek: Don't care, must have one *drool* :D " stuff that GW either can't afford to do (the imperial fortress walls, titans etc), don't see a mass market for (Elysians would be the best example, but things like super-heavies would also probably figure here), or simply can't be bothered with (things like the Atlas).

t-tauri
06-04-2005, 20:34
I think the recent financial nose dive of the share prices could shake up or accelerate the order. It's clear they need sales in the UK and fast. I would think there are a few rethinks of the long slow release process going on and a few fast bucks being sought.

New metal minatures can be thrown out relatively quickly so things like new units for existing armies, metal chapter conversion kits for the new termies, new Tau suits, and so on.

Deathwatch pads are already on the plastic sprues so how about Alien Hunters shooting up the charts? Plastic SM kits with metal conversions, Inquisitors and characters only represent a few months work. Clone the Daemon and Witch Hunter codicies and it could be out by Christmas.

Inquisitor Engel
06-04-2005, 21:00
New metal minatures can be thrown out relatively quickly so things like new units for existing armies, metal chapter conversion kits for the new termies, new Tau suits, and so on.
New Tau suits I think are a bit much, at least for now. Forgeworld has that covered, although a couple of Chapter Approved improvements like the Rail Rifle might not go amiss.

Metal conversion kits for the Termies should be saved for the Codexes, however some random blisters coming out (New Termie Chaplains, Librarians etc) and Inquisitors from time to time might not be too bad an idea.

Index Astartes IV should be out soon-ish, though I can't give a month or anything. I also have no idea what Chapters are in it, what extras, or what boxed sets might come out. I simply know that it'll be coming soon.


Deathwatch pads are already on the plastic sprues so how about Alien Hunters shooting up the charts? Plastic SM kits with metal conversions, Inquisitors and characters only represent a few months work. Clone the Daemon and Witch Hunter codicies and it could be out by Christmas.
But cloning the Witchunter and Daemonhunter Codexes isn't what the want to do. Alienhunters is supposed to be a large departure from the other two, which makes sense, since the Ordo Xenos is by far the most disparate of the Ordo's, as coexistence with some alien races is beneficial in some regards.

Much of the Ordo Xenos is obsessed with learning about them, rather than destroying them unless they represent a direct threat to the Imperium. That needs to be reflected in the Codex.

hood_oz
06-04-2005, 23:46
But cloning the Witchunter and Daemonhunter Codexes isn't what the want to do. Alienhunters is supposed to be a large departure from the other two, which makes sense, since the Ordo Xenos is by far the most disparate of the Ordo's, as coexistence with some alien races is beneficial in some regards.

Much of the Ordo Xenos is obsessed with learning about them, rather than destroying them unless they represent a direct threat to the Imperium. That needs to be reflected in the Codex.

True, alien hunters should be a deprture, as the background fluff is more about small units being attached to imperial forces to help root out aliens, or to help in the cleansing of alien groups. There will be instances where larger groups are needed, but personally I dont see converting the grey knights list entries to deathwatch entries is going to make a stand out codex. Hopefully, they will have something along the lines of rogue traders in the list, using the alien tech. Of course I am more interested in the enemies extra little goodies that will be included. Genestealer cults and the like.... (crosses fingers AND claws)

But due to the huge amount of deathwatch pads getting included in the generic plastic boxes, there MAY be rules for upgrading normal SM characters along the lines of the old WD article. *complete assumption based on previous direction taken by the designers*

Studying aliens, yes, there would be adpetus mechanicus biologis and genetor if you follow that train of thought. But we have seen inquisitors using alien allies and there would more than likely be the chance for just about any alien force to use alien hunter inquisitors, to show them using one alien race to help destroy another without needing to waste any precious human subjects.

Of course capturing new aliens for study would bring up new missions, and I can see how certain bonus VP could be awarded for capturing aliens in close combat.

Inquisitor Engel
07-04-2005, 00:05
But due to the huge amount of deathwatch pads getting included in the generic plastic boxes, there MAY be rules for upgrading normal SM characters along the lines of the old WD article. *complete assumption based on previous direction taken by the designers*
I was under the assumption that Deathwatch Entry is still good...

hood_oz
07-04-2005, 05:52
I was under the assumption that Deathwatch Entry is still good...

well, since a new codex was released since it came out, I was under the impression it was rendered obsolete?

If still useable then great!

Delicious Soy
07-04-2005, 09:02
well, since a new codex was released since it came out, I was under the impression it was rendered obsolete?

If still useable then great!You mean the new Rule book? Considering that codexes as far back as Eldar and orks are still valid, I'd say so.

Sai-Lauren
07-04-2005, 10:11
I think the recent financial nose dive of the share prices could shake up or accelerate the order. It's clear they need sales in the UK and fast. I would think there are a few rethinks of the long slow release process going on and a few fast bucks being sought.

New metal minatures can be thrown out relatively quickly so things like new units for existing armies, metal chapter conversion kits for the new termies, new Tau suits, and so on.

Deathwatch pads are already on the plastic sprues so how about Alien Hunters shooting up the charts? Plastic SM kits with metal conversions, Inquisitors and characters only represent a few months work. Clone the Daemon and Witch Hunter codicies and it could be out by Christmas.
Well, metal figures can be produced a lot more quickly than plastic, that's true, but do you really want to go back to the days of early 3rd edition - Dark Eldar didn't really survive their launch with their pamphlet codex, and the codex and rules are probably the most labour intensive part of a release.

Plus, that's assuming GW even have the spare capacity within the design studio to produce these new figures, another codex from very little, plus all the other work that goes into a release. You can't just snap your fingers and have a full release sat waiting to go a week later.

My guess is the execs will start having meetings now to see what can be done. But nothing will actually start until round the time the year-end figures are released, and we won't see the results of any changes this year. Companies like GW are big enough to ride out minor waves, but you can't turn a company that size around in half an hour, you need weeks if not months or years, else there's a real probability of going off in totally the wrong direction, and then it's a lot harder to bring back.

Alpharius
07-04-2005, 13:22
I love these types of threads!

Lots of interesting ideas get put out for discussion...

And though they do seem to crop up every few months, it is generally well worth it to wade through to find the new stuff.

One of the funny things (to me!) though is how different everyone's "solid sources" can be!

Now, at GD Atlanta, my interpretation (uh oh!) was that Eldar are further off than Orks, and Orks were strongly hinted at as being next after Black Templars.

And Harlequins are a long, long ways off. Not going to be in the Eldar book, but maybe in a temp list online/chapter approved/WD type of way?

So, if I were to guess, I'd say after BT:

Orks
Dark Angels (or Blood Angels)
Eldar (vanilla and Craft World together - trait like system? NO Harlies or DE)
Blood Angels (or Dark Angels)
Tau
Space Wolves
...?

No inside sources, just cobbled together info...

charlie_c67
07-04-2005, 13:49
Well Eldar seem to be considered as the most "broken" by a lot of people. That coupled to the fact that DE and CWE are having their back grounds done together means a lot of work needs to be done.

t-tauri
07-04-2005, 17:37
But cloning the Witchunter and Daemonhunter Codexes isn't what the want to do. Alienhunters is supposed to be a large departure from the other two, which makes sense, since the Ordo Xenos is by far the most disparate of the Ordo's, as coexistence with some alien races is beneficial in some regards.

Much of the Ordo Xenos is obsessed with learning about them, rather than destroying them unless they represent a direct threat to the Imperium. That needs to be reflected in the Codex.
Oh, I agree that's whats been coming out of the studio for a while but the sheer scale of the share plunge where the value of the company has literally halved in the last few weeks must change around the release schedule. I think that what even those as well connected as yourself know will swiftly be subject to change.


The point I'm trying to make is that these figures must see an improvement in sales. How are they going to achieve that quickly will be the question. I feel that fast releases for a wide range of different armies will be the best approach. During 4th the only things for 40k which have come out are Space Marines, a few nids and the Wave Serpent.

No-one bought many wave serpents because it's crap until the Eldar codex upgrades it. Sales of SM are sluggish because most people already have SM armies are only picking up the best of the new stuff and price resistance is stopping many newcomers from coming in. I can't see nids setting the world alight. Existing nid players will only buy a few new minis. Most players of 40k haven't had any releases at all.

The problem for GW management is how to change this. One of their main tools has to be looking at what they release and when.

Wintermute
07-04-2005, 17:46
Index Astartes IV should be out soon-ish, though I can't give a month or anything.

The UK release date is 4th June.

charlie_c67
08-04-2005, 13:02
Where'd you hear that? Or is it from nudge nudge wink wink sources?

Inquisitor Engel
08-04-2005, 18:36
Most players of 40k haven't had any releases at all.
Well, I can see Wood Elves thoroughly recharging the company, the change is so total, so full, that even existing Wood Elves will probably replace a large majority of the their armies (Marines haven't changed like they did for 3rd Edition, neither have Nids). When I say 'Big change' think change to the degree that the Necrons were overhauled.

I expect Alien Hunters may get shifted up, but you're correct, there probably is quite a change coming up.

I expect the Eldar and Ork reduxes will also be stepped up, as these are bound to bring in a large amount of sales.

Malakai
09-04-2005, 09:41
GW is really becomming frustrating these days. I mean, not knowing what codex is to come after the Black Templars is just insane. The most anyone here can do is make educated guesses. Hell we don't even know for certain if the Black Templars will be getting chapter specific accessory sprues such as shoulder pads and what not.

Honestly, GW needs to loosen it's grip on the rumours/news front. It's a product, not some over anticipated film shrouded in mystery. What does GW hope to accomplish by this 6 month window? Do they think that if the public is kept in the dark longer that their products will reach some fevered pitch and the masses will swarm to get their hands on new toys? That's the only reason I can think of and frankly it doesn't make me want to buy more of their stuff, it just pisses me off.

How can someone properly plan an army if they don't know what is being redone? What will be "current" for many years and what will quickly become obsolete by the time you have finished painting the army?

I have been staying away from 40K until I know more about when my armies are going to be released. In that time I've been messing around with epic, but as much as I love that game I'd really like to continue work on my other projects. I won't touch the stuff though until I know that new shiney stuff won't replace what I have invested time, money and energy into already. :mad:


Grrr...

Ok, now I feel better, sorry for the mini rant there but it had to be said..


Malakai

Karhedron
09-04-2005, 13:59
Honestly, GW needs to loosen it's grip on the rumours/news front. It's a product, not some over anticipated film shrouded in mystery. What does GW hope to accomplish by this 6 month window?
There are several reasons for the 6 month window, all of which make financial sense for the company, even if they are annoying to fans. One thing to remember is that up until a few years ago there was no real internet rumour mill for 40K and we were lucky to find anything ahead of it being published in WD.

Firstly plans can always change. If the new Ork plastics turn out to be more difficult than they expected, Orks might get bumped back by a release slot or two and something else might get moved up. If they announce there release schedule too far in advance then whenever anything gets changed they will get a whole load of annoyed fans screaming blue murder on the web because their favourite army has just been delayed. By the time an army reaches the 6 month window, it will be nearly finished so the chance of anything drastic causing it to be pushed back are pretty much gone.

Secondly, too much information depresses sales of current items. You may claim that people are put off buying stuff because they don't know when it will be redone but the fact is that far more people would be put off buying something if they knew for a fact that it would be redone in 12 months time. News was leaked about the new Tactical squads well over 6 months in advance, as a result they still have not even been released in the UK because GW is having trouble shifting the old tactical squads. They are not going to release the new sets until they have cleared the old stocks. Far more people will avoid buying something they know will be replaced soon thatn will avoid it because they don't know it won't be replaced soon.

Thirdly, GW want to keep the focus of interest on their current batch of releases. The latest Marine stuff will not sell as well it as it might if half the 40K world knows that Eldar are just going into development and are waiting with baited breath for them. If people do not know what is coming in a year from now then they are more likely to buy whatever is the newest release. If you tell people too far in advance they will wait for it instead of buying current products.

So while it may be annoying for fans there are at least 3 very good reasons why it makes sense for GW to keep a lid on information until it is close to release time.

Malakai
10-04-2005, 22:23
Hmm, [Muad Dib]I see the truth of it[/Muad Dib]. Good points Karhedron and I concede that you are probably right. Still I don't have to like it ;)

*goes back to painting Epic minis till Eldar is released*


Malakai

charlie_c67
11-04-2005, 10:49
The other thing about it is it gives you a chance to work on those major conversions you were planning without having to worry about all the spangly new mini's that might otherwise push it by the wayside ;)

Oh and you missed number 4 Karhedron. The WS factor...

Delicious Soy
11-04-2005, 14:57
The frustration I have with the current state of affairs is that things that have the potential to re-invigorate parts of 40k are being dissmissed out of hand as 'too hard'. Now we're hearing that harlequins are being thrown out of Eldar development because they 'don't know what to do with them'. Excuse me? They fight chaos, are a fragile assault army with heavy weapon support. The direction was laid in the 2nd ed codex, how hard is it to read it? Instead we're simply seeing revisions, I hope that this supposed (and I think it is) revolution of the WE spreads across to 40k and someone does get around to creating Exodites and Harlequins. Perhaps if the development team were challenged with something other than deadlines, we'd see some dynamic ideas coming out again.

charlie_c67
11-04-2005, 15:11
Therein lies the problem. When GW wasn't run by accountants things were a lot more laid back and, generally, better laid out. Sure there were problems but what system doesn't have them. Unfortunatly when you have stockholders to please things have to be done quickly and at a profit.

rkunisch
11-04-2005, 16:04
It is not only about stockholders. It is simply a matter to run an enterprise as large as GW. I think the old style of management would not work with todays GW. I am big fan of diversity but I also accept that the Studio has limited resources. If you look at it: There are more 40K and Fantasy armies than ever - not to mention a complete third core game. They all even have nearly complete model ranges. I can see why Exodites and Harlequins did not get the full treatment...

Have fun,

Rolf.

Farseer Cirdan
11-04-2005, 22:55
I said if for a looooong time on the "old" Portent, and I'll say it again:
1 - Space Marines
2 - Tyranids
3 - Black Templars
4 - Tau
5 - Summer Campaign
6 - Big Four if Summer Campaign is not Imperial; Eldar or Orks if it is

Delicious Soy
12-04-2005, 04:04
I can see why Exodites and Harlequins did not get the full treatment...If by full treatment you mean full codex thats not what I'm saying. Exodites need one unit, Dragon Knights. If they were in the codex, you could easly make an exodite army out of the current list (the future one even easier if the Autarch is included). Halrequins hould go in the CW codex so they can be combined or used by themselves, with an allowance to take them in DE armies. Unfortunately this is not a period of development but revision, the only system getting anything new is LOTR.

Inquisitor Engel
12-04-2005, 04:20
I said if for a looooong time on the "old" Portent, and I'll say it again:
1 - Space Marines
2 - Tyranids
3 - Black Templars
4 - Tau
5 - Summer Campaign
6 - Big Four if Summer Campaign is not Imperial; Eldar or Orks if it is
And for the whole time you've been talking about it, you haven't ever defended why, to my knowledge.

Please, state your case. And what's this idea about a Summer Campaign? Ack to that. We won't see one of those for a while I don't think. Maybe a campaign setting, but that'd get more lists than just what you list probably.

boogle
12-04-2005, 12:42
beat me to it Engel, i can't see the summer campaign happening either, and the Tau may get some treatment (apparently snipers have been mentioned)

Farseer Cirdan
14-04-2005, 21:01
And for the whole time you've been talking about it, you haven't ever defended why, to my knowledge.

Please, state your case. And what's this idea about a Summer Campaign? Ack to that. We won't see one of those for a while I don't think. Maybe a campaign setting, but that'd get more lists than just what you list probably.
I've had quite a few extended statements as to why I think this is the case. It's based on a combination of things ranging from discussions I had with Steve Pritchard before he left GW, developer resources, hints dropped by playtesters, and the overall development schedule.

BT will be out late this year, around October. The next release for 40k should be in four or five months, around February or March 2006. This will be too soon for Eldar, based on the start of Eldar development, the six month assesment of the race as a whole, need for new miniatures, scheduling of plastics, playtesting, etc. Eldar will not be the "Spring 2006" release. Fall 2006 to Fall 2007 for them.

The release will not be imperial back to back. That rules out quite a bit. And leaves only Eldar (see above), Choas (already have a 4th edition 'dex, essentially), Nids (done already), Dark Eldar (rumored to be on the very back burner), Necron, Orks, and Tau.

Orks could be a possiblity, but the modular vehicle kit is taking longer to develop than anticipated, and won't be ready for Spring 2006 either. That pushes them back to the same timeframe I have for Eldar (Fall 2006 to Fall 2007).

Leaving us with Necron or Tau. Unfortunately, I don't have my PM's from Steve anymore, but he led me to believe that Necron were not near the front of the line. Additionally, playtesters posting here on Portent have indicated that we will be seeing some new alien races in the near term. The most likely way to see this would be as allies in the Tau codex (ala Kroot).

As to the Summer Campaign, this was also hinted at by SteveP, similar to the WHFB campaign. Not a worldwide thing, just a little campaign book. Now, this could be tied into Alien Hunters, could be something completely separate. I tend to think it will be very minor, and we may see a "Big Four" release in Summer 2006 in addition to any campaign book.

This would allow either Orks or Eldar to be released in Fall 2006. My early bet is on Orks, as I think they're further along than Eldar, but that's a long way out.

boogle
15-04-2005, 19:58
right Steve P has been left the company for a while now, so i would say things could well have changed, for all we know (and we'll not know because of the 6 month window), the Ork Vehicle sprue may be going better that back then, so Orks could well be the next codex, but as i've said before, we'll just have to wait and see what comes out

Witch Hunter
16-04-2005, 06:20
Phil Kelly acknowledged @ GD Atlanta that the Preliminary work for the Eldar codex had just begun, but he let slip that while no date had been set for its release(something about scheduling and sculpts IIRC) the Ork 'dex was all but complete.

Zustiur
17-04-2005, 10:57
Phil Kelly acknowledged @ GD Atlanta that the Preliminary work for the Eldar codex had just begun, but he let slip that while no date had been set for its release(something about scheduling and sculpts IIRC) the Ork 'dex was all but complete.
Seems likely to me.
Plus orks being next fits in with the adversaries thing:
Ultras V Tyranids
Templars V Orks (or so I gather, I don't really know much Templar fluff)
Xeno? V Eldar
BA/DA/SW V Tau/Necron/Dark Eldar
Guard V Chaos

I don't claim to have any knowledge on the order, just stating what I think is likely from having read these forums.

Zustiur.

Grot
18-04-2005, 00:49
I don't claim to be any sort of expert, but I heard a theory somewhere that makes sense to me.

The Ultramarines were the generic Space Marine army, and made sense to be done first (for the purposes of fourth edition). The Ultramarines are 'famous' for hating the Tyranids, and, as such, the Tyranid army is being released next so that the Ultramarine players will have tyranid opponents to play against, some of whom, assumably, were lured to the tyranid force by the new models. Thus, one can also assume that 'Tyranid hunters' models will appear alongside the Tyranid model releases, or at the least, suggestions on converting such a space marine squad using the new tyranid models.

The Space Marine race, on a whole, are rather complete plastic model-wise, but do have a few obvious gaps, one of which is the lack of a plastic scout squad. The Black Templars freely use scouts, or 'neophytes' in a few of their space marine troop squads, and so would be an ideal army to hype when releasing plastic scouts.

Now, given the adversary thing, and that the Black Templars seem to be the most confirmed army after the Tyranids, I would guess that after the Black Templars would be the Eldar. Which would then serve to be the Black Templar's 'fluff-nemesis'. Black Templar fluff (and special rules, such as "Be Pure In Mind, Body, And Soul") state that they despise magic users and the like (the special rule attempting to help the Black Templars get into range against psykers), and the Eldar army is famous for its psychic abilities. Therefore, it's logical to put out an army with a guaranteed psyker presence, (the HQ Farseer, HQ Warlocks and the Warlocks assigned to various other squads) as the Black Templar's 'bitter rivals' force, than say, the orks, who sometimes have one Weirdboy, at best.

Therefore, if Black Templars are paired up with Eldar, which would seem logical, then the next xeno army would probably be the orks, who's space marine counterpart would likely be something melee-heavy, such as the "Black Rage / Death Company" Blood Angels, who I believe have had some bitter run-ins with the orks in the past, the death of Tycho coming to mind. (If I'm not mistaken, Tycho died against the orks during Armageddon?) There was also that comic book type story about the Blood Angels beating up some orks at some point, I think, and such and so forth.

But again, this is only speculation which seems logical to me.

And if you skipped over my post to the bottom, I'll simplify my guess:
-Ultramarines
-Tyranids
-Black Templars
-Eldar
-Blood Angels
-Orks

Reason being:
-Ultramarines hate Tyranids. (The whole Behemoth/Macragge thing.) Resulting in Space Marines VS aliens they hate.
-Black Templars hate psykers. (The Eldar like psykers.) Resulting in Space Marines VS psychic aliens that they hate.
-Blood Angels like melee. (And the ork army is not known for 'stand and shoot' tactics, resulting in plenty of hand to hand combat.) Resulting in Space Marines VS melee aliens that they hate, and are generally in range to "Black Rage" all over.

And I'm done.

Delicious Soy
18-04-2005, 01:45
If we're going to follow that logic, then BT's would definitely be followed by Orks, due to the 3rd Armageddon war. THen as a random stab in the dark, I would match them up like this (in no particular order BTW):

Necrons -> Alien hunters or DA (Caliban ruins are near many tomb worlds)
Eldar -> SW (Simply for the convienence of mixed attack that both use)
Tau -> BA (Heavy assault vs Heavy shooting)

Actually is pretty hard to match them up this way beyond Bt/Orks and Ultras/Nids.

Karhedron
18-04-2005, 21:54
Now, given the adversary thing, and that the Black Templars seem to be the most confirmed army after the Tyranids, I would guess that after the Black Templars would be the Eldar. Which would then serve to be the Black Templar's 'fluff-nemesis'.
I think you are reading far too much into a single tiny fluff point. One could argue that Orks would be a more likely enemy to Black templars since they were hugely involved in the 3rd Armageddon war. Also I think that a large portion of the Black templars set out on crusade to hunt down Ghazkull.

I have long been of the suspicion that Orks would get ahead of Eldar in release terms and Engel's report of Phil Kelly's comments makes that seem more likely to my mind. If I were a betting man I would expect to see Orks in spring 2006.

Delicious Soy
18-04-2005, 23:52
It seems all but definite that its going to be orks then eldar, so a more pertinent question is what is going to be in between the two? We have 2 CC armies (BA and SW) and one shooting one (DA), what would they do next? I'd say BA before DA with SW at the end.

Karhedron
19-04-2005, 08:50
It seems all but definite that its going to be orks then eldar, so a more pertinent question is what is going to be in between the two?
Apparently they opted to do Black Templars after Ultras because they were perceived as being the most easily abused variant chapter. On that reasoning, Blood Angels could well be the next Chapter to get revised. Although not exactly broken, the list does lend itself to a certain very limited style of play. I guess you would need a Blood Angel specific sprue but not too much else, most of the model range is already covered.

charlie_c67
19-04-2005, 10:33
That's just it with the remaining SM chapters. Where virtually the whole range is plastic all that needs to be done is a chapter specific sprue or three. If we get plastic scouts, then BT's and SW's would need a chapter specific sprue for them since both chapters have a different from the norm scout set-up, otherwise you'd just need one for standard marines and one for Termis.
If this shift to plastic continues and spreads to all armies then there's no reason you could expand the x-specific sprues and have ones for the main craftworlds/klans/kabals/c'tans/septs etc.

Delicious Soy
19-04-2005, 11:13
Apparently they opted to do Black Templars after Ultras because they were perceived as being the most easily abused variant chapter. On that reasoning, Blood Angels could well be the next Chapter to get revised. Although not exactly broken, the list does lend itself to a certain very limited style of play. I guess you would need a Blood Angel specific sprue but not too much else, most of the model range is already covered.
Pretty much the reason I put them first, the Ball Predator has already been updated, leaving:

- Death Company
- Character models? (Possibly new Mephiston, Dante and Lemartes, Corbulo would be a maybe)
- Sanguinary Priest (or just Corbulo)
- HQ box (Honour Guard)
-Plastic Furioso (doubtful, though one wonders why it wasn't included when they made the new one)

Half of those aren't all that necessary and could be left by the wayside. DA I would say simply because they are too 'All Ravenwing' or 'All Deathwing' with minimal benfit for the middle ground. Those Mortis pattern dreads would be an awesome addition to the DA (and certainly bring their character out of the background and onto the tabletop).

The main problem I see with the DA and SW is a model one, custom Termis. Deathwing and to a greater extent, Wolfguard use model different from the standard termi box. I doubt 3 different termi boxes would be GW choice therefore I say one of two things would happen:

1. People are forced to convert (highly probable)
2. Termi boxes are repackaged with a deathwing/wolfguard sprue (less probable given that Termi boxes would probably have a price increase to cover it, and being priced at a premium already, I doubt they'd raise it anymore)

Of course the absolute loing shot would be blistered metal termis but thats doubtful. OTOH what are they going to do with all that shelf space given over to blisters?

panda
19-04-2005, 14:23
Well Soy, do you then think that there would be a box for each of those (SW and DA) as just chapter specific sprues? That is, a sprue that can be applied throughout each chapters' range of armour?

That would seem to be a good shelf space saving method, as you would only need two small boxes in addition to the regular boxes for the terminators/tacs/assault/devs. Alternatively, there's already a lot of space taken up by all of the Wolf boxes already, so one more box won't make that much difference.

Delicious Soy
19-04-2005, 14:35
Well Soy, do you then think that there would be a box for each of those (SW and DA) as just chapter specific sprues? That is, a sprue that can be applied throughout each chapters' range of armour?While I think chapter specifc bit boxes would be an excellent idea, I doubt GW would implement it, they'd much rather have you shell out for the marines to go with it. Same reason they stopped selling transfers by themselves. Maybe something like the broadside (plastic kit with metal additions) might by the way they go, with metal chestplate and weapons.

charlie_c67
19-04-2005, 14:44
True, but x-specific sprues have a lot more potential at the end of the day. They're a lot easier to develop, will probably sell many times over, will reach a wider market and the theory can be expanded to other armies.

Delicious Soy
19-04-2005, 14:54
True, but x-specific sprues have a lot more potential at the end of the day. They're a lot easier to develop, will probably sell many times over, will reach a wider market and the theory can be expanded to other armies.I get the feeling that somewhere there been dome confusion. I think that if GW did a Chapter Specific sprue (and its very possible they would) it would be in a box with models, not a box by itself. That box would probably be a tactical squad. In terms of Wolfguard, such a sprue would probably be used in that capacity anyway by players, as a wolfguard is basically a termi with furs. Deathwing OTOH are more problematic because their stuff differs from your average DA (Broken Sword insignia and feather things on their weapons), not to mention that the Ravenwing have a completely different insignia again. I think that the Blood Claws and Grey Hunter boxes could be amalgamated, but DA are a different kettle of fish, most of their special things were metal or simply painted different. The move to plastic poses the most signifcant challenge in the whole Marine line.

charlie_c67
19-04-2005, 15:03
The problem with DA is their love of robes, not something that's very easily replicated.

Dakkagor
19-04-2005, 22:53
If Gw is listening, and they do need sales, the quickest way into my wallet is through the ork codex.

Ork players are the most fanatical nutbags of the lot. My ork army spans over 2 toolboxes and a box of bits heavier than me. And I would still buy any nice new plastics GW produced for my greenskins. I think alot of ork players would agree.

Black Templars need to be fixed, but after that, the orks make a logical choice. Little rules development needed, a nice chunky codex full of fluff, and most importantly, new vehicle kits, and GW will be onto an earner.

Farseer Cirdan
24-04-2005, 15:01
I have long been of the suspicion that Orks would get ahead of Eldar in release terms and Engel's report of Phil Kelly's comments makes that seem more likely to my mind. If I were a betting man I would expect to see Orks in spring 2006.
That's the first time I've seen those comments. If that is the case, and they've sorted out the problem with the modular vehicle kit, then, yes, I would agree that Orks would be the Spring 2006 release.

But honestly, I've never seen those comments before, and I've never seen Engel confirm them...

As for the Summer 2006 release, if it's not a mini-campaign book, it will definitely be a big four release. Might get both. As to which of the big four, I honestly have no idea. Right now I see two possibilities overall for when the Eldar Codex will come out, Fall 2006 or Spring 2007:

Spring 2006 - Tau
Summer 2006 - Mini-Campaign/Big Four
Fall 2006 - Orks
Sping 2007 - Eldar

OR

Spring 2006 - Orks
Summer 2006 - Mini-Campaign/Big Four
Fall 2006 - Eldar

Sepheroph
25-04-2005, 08:43
As a random question, what is putting Tau ahead of both orks AND eldar?

Personally I have always believed the Eldar would come before the orks, and I still think that the case.

sulla
25-04-2005, 12:00
Black Templars need to be fixed, but after that, the orks make a logical choice. Little rules development needed, a nice chunky codex full of fluff, and most importantly, new vehicle kits, and GW will be onto an earner.

It's nice to hear from another Ork fan who doesn't think the codex is broken. Expanded model range and limited tweaks (about the scale of the marine dex) and this one could be whipped out in not much time at all.

Now the Craftworld and or Dark Eldar books on the other hand...
:eek:

Delicious Soy
27-04-2005, 00:59
I had an interesting conversation with a red shirt today regarding the order of codex which certainly put a few things into a different light. Apparently BT's are only beaten in the popularity stakes by the BA, which is apparently one of the reasons they are going first (I assume their supposed abusability was the other). Now when it comes to Xeno races, the Tau are, to my shock and horror, the most popular (pretty much due the whole 'yay anime!' thing). Ergo his interpretation was that they'd be the next one up.

While I find this system of figuring out who goes when a little disconcerting, if its accurate it would give credence to the claims that Tau are up after BT, as would the shabby dealings in the FAQ, why bother thinking out a proper solution when you'll be addressing it soon enough?

True or not, I think its a stupid move to put Tau in front of more established races, but its not really my hobby is it?

boogle
27-04-2005, 08:30
the question i ask is; what sales would they generate through releasing this beyond the codex and maybe 1-2 new models?, it doesn't make financial sense to do this as the model range doesn't need restructuring, and haven't they said that they release models over rules when deciding on the releases, so Orks would make the most sense, because they should get the following releases:
Modular Vehicle Set (has the potential to be the Rhino in terms of sales volume)
Updated Big Mek and Painboss Models
Flash Gitz, Kommados and Skarboys Boxed Sets (Plastic/Metal Hybrids maybe, ro merge 'Ard Boyz and Skar boyz into 1 box, Stik Bommerz and Ork Boyz into 1 box and Kommandos and Flash Gitz into 1 box)
Plastic Grots

that with a decent Codex could well rival Marines as a top seller if they pushed them as THE enemy of Mankind (really play on the spore birth thing)

Eldar wouldn't be far behind as in my view the following models could be released in order to update the Codex:
New Avatar with variant versions of the Wailing Doom
New Scorpions, Dragons, Wraithguard, and Warp Spiders (to update them), plus a new Aspect to fill out the Elites
Revamped Rangers
Revamped Jetbikes (model is now 10+ years old), which means new better looking Shining Spears
Revamped Wraithlord (to fit in with the revamped Wraithguard) and Warwalker, these would be revamped as although they keep getting repackagd, they could become an Either/or model in a box with the plastic weapons sprue.

now going to the Tau:
rumoured Sniper Tau
Unsuited Shas'O/El
Variant A'un (Honorblade)
Um, thats about it

so if what i've said above was what GW was planning model wise, you can see it would make more sense to release Orks 1st as they have a better chance of having a codex completed 1st and they have a lot of potential money to be made with the release of the models listed

discuss

charlie_c67
27-04-2005, 10:08
Having said that look at the releases so far confirmed. You've got SM's, which while having a virtual model line replacement had little fluff/codex change, Nids which have had extensive model line and (possibly) fluff/codex replacement, and BT's which will probably have some bits of fluff revision, a major change in mechanics and a few extra minis. Now if they're planning on replacing the the entire model line of each race as they go, and add a few more, then tau would make sense before a race that needs a lot of time spent on it to get it up to scratch. They don't need many new models, a few clarifications/fixes and perhaps have a few sprue re-cuts to get more gribbly bits on but nothing really apart from that leaving more time for dexes that need more work.

Rich
27-04-2005, 10:34
I will be extremely upset if they release Tau before either Orks or Eldar. Let's face it, Tau neither need the rules updates or the models that both Orks and Eldar do, and whats worse their codex is relatively new - to think that they would put Alienhunters on the backburner so they cna release tau instead!

What models could they make for Tau? Almost the entire range is available in plastic - unless they remake some of the models or create a new unit, there really is no motivation there. A sprue to alllow the firewarrior plastics to be made into pathfinders is about the only thing I can think of.

charlie_c67
27-04-2005, 11:05
That's the point though isn't it? Orks and Eldar need more time to be sorted, therefore producing two dexes that just need a fluff/minor rules update and little or no new minis allows the developers to spend more time on the projects that need them.

boogle
27-04-2005, 11:10
thats the thing, they don't even need the recuts, there are very fwew models in the range that can be cnsider as weak and need changing, plus there are older races who would sell better if released earlier, and the sales are what GW need to be looking at, releasing Tau will not boost their sales much, releasing Orks/Eldar will, that is a bonafide fact

Karhedron
27-04-2005, 14:48
releasing Tau will not boost their sales much, releasing Orks/Eldar will, that is a bonafide fact
No, it is an oppinion, don't mix the two up. ;)

I do not know one way or the other whether Tau are imminent but I am pretty sure that Gw will do their number crunching. I doubt they will release something unless they think it will boost sales. Tau are quite popular in my area so a new codex could potentially be a money spinner but we don't really know.

Sildani
27-04-2005, 15:05
Mmm... but wasn't the Tau Codex trumpeted as being the first Codex written with 4th edition in mind?

charlie_c67
27-04-2005, 15:13
And? That still doesn't mean it's up to scratch. Tau and beyond was kind of 40k 3.5

Delicious Soy
28-04-2005, 01:26
thats the thing, they don't even need the recuts, there are very few models in the range that can be consider as weak and need changingThat could have been said about the marines yet lo and behold, most of their line has been updated. There are a few things they could do with the Tau list, expand it for one thing. Reading their codex makes it all too apparent that they are a new army, they don't have that much stuff. Plus Forgeworld has made battlesuits that put the current ones to shame, so that could be addressed. So could the Shas'O in different suits. Or on foot. Or burstcannon infantry. Or entirely new units. I'm not saying I agree with it, but in light of their apparent sales success, it is a feasible proposition.

Farseer Cirdan
28-04-2005, 19:34
@boogle: My reasoning for why Tau are next after BT is partially the counter-arguement to your reaonsing. I think that because the Tau don't take a whole lot of new models, they will be sooner in the release cycle. GW can generate/re-energize interest in the Tau by releasing a new codex which will encourage more players to start a Tau army and thus generate more sales. All while having to invest very little in development of new models and without throwing a wrench in the release schedule, as they can be easily "cranked out".

SnakeEyes
29-04-2005, 15:06
There is some sense in that. What is known is that only preliminary work has begun with the Eldar, and the preliminary work actually also involves taking a look at Dark Eldar, Harlequins, Exodites and Eldar pirates. Then Phil has to start working on new rules, (let's hope Gavin only gets to do some fluff), then there is still playtesting and new minis release. I think fall/winter 06 at the earliest, and that's assuming Eldar gets released before Orks.

Delicious Soy
02-05-2005, 00:35
let's hope Gavin only gets to do some fluffLets not. He did enough last time.

boogle
02-05-2005, 00:46
the fluff side wasn't too bad, its just a lot of people feel he nerfed some of the decent units in the list (Defenders being one of the most moaned about)

Delicious Soy
02-05-2005, 01:02
I dunno, I thought he undermined one of the core concepts of exarchs when he said they could join the infinity circuit. It was much more poignant than even in death, an exarch never knows peace. Plus casting abiguity over the average eldar life span. Plus the minimal information leading to people not knowing what the Eldar are about, but thats pretty much par for the course in 3rd ed.

zealousheretic
02-05-2005, 05:13
@boogle: My reasoning for why Tau are next after BT is partially the counter-arguement to your reaonsing. I think that because the Tau don't take a whole lot of new models, they will be sooner in the release cycle. GW can generate/re-energize interest in the Tau by releasing a new codex which will encourage more players to start a Tau army and thus generate more sales. All while having to invest very little in development of new models and without throwing a wrench in the release schedule, as they can be easily "cranked out".

I don't know about the big picture, but I know more Tau players than marine players. In my neck of the woods, they're wildly popular.

That alone might give GW reason to release a new 'dex for them fairly soon. Aside from which, the Tau list tends to be very cookie-cutter. There are only a few things you can do differently from every other Tau player on the planet.

Irondog
02-05-2005, 14:01
The Eldar 'dex has been in the works forever. I am good friends with a guy who helped write/playtest the Witch Hunters codex. He said that the Eldar book was in development before WH. If it's taken them this long, I wouldn't bet on it anytime soon.

zealousheretic
02-05-2005, 14:41
Wave Serpent syndrome strikes again!

*flees, pursued by a volley of shuriken fire*

Delicious Soy
03-05-2005, 02:27
*flees, pursued by a volley of shuriken fire*Given the near useless nature of shuriken, I wouldn't be too concerned ;)

Inquisitor Engel
03-05-2005, 02:43
He said that the Eldar book was in development before WH.
Sorry, but he lied. ;)

Darius Rhiannon
03-05-2005, 07:12
You see the only problem I have with say the Tau being released next year is this:

If GW spends all its time on only doing the "easy codexi" first, they will not be capable of doing the "harder" ones when they have run out of "easy ones"

Also the Ork codex can be considered an "easy one" due to the fact that the only thing they really need is new vehicles and models. E.g. Plastic Grots.

So they would be as easy a codex to do as the Tau, and would revitalise the Orks.

The Eldar codex could be considered a "Tricky One" although I do not see why it is considered such?

Consider Marines as the Baseline. Then ask yourself some questions about the Eldar.

Is an Eldar faster than a marine? Yes.
Is the Eldar less strong/tough than a marine? Yes
Are the Eldar less well armoured than a marine? Yes
Are the Eldar supposed to be a dying race? Yes
Are the Eldar supposed to be the most advanced Zeno Race? Yes

Let us see what game-design answers this would give us.
We want fast troops, that are mainly S3 & T3
Eldar troops must have High Armour saves (either a +4,+5,+6)
The eldar being a "dying race" means that it would be ridiculous for them to cost less than for example an Ork, as this would result in Guardian Horde armies.
They would also have a High Prevalence of high strenght weapons and weapons with low AP.

So from these conclusions it would create a guardian as follows.
WS 4
BS 4
S 3
T 3
I 5
A 1
Ld 8
Sv +5/5 (5 armour save and +5 invulnarable)

The should carry Assault 2 24' weapons that are S4 and AP4. Unit leaders can also be upgraded with power weapons.

Rough points cost for this model would be 14-16pts due to the assualt weaponry and the +5 invulnarable save. The AP of the weapon is justified due to the fact that thousands of little sharp disks will have a tendency to find the chinks in armourd.

Of course this will be decreed as power gaming, except I do not play Eldar but this is nevertheless what I think they should be.

My 2 cents

sulla
03-05-2005, 07:45
So from these conclusions it would create a guardian as follows.
WS 4
BS 4
S 3
T 3
I 5
A 1
Ld 8
Sv +5/5 (5 armour save and +5 invulnarable)

The should carry Assault 2 24' weapons that are S4 and AP4. Unit leaders can also be upgraded with power weapons.

Rough points cost for this model would be 14-16pts due to the assualt weaponry and the +5 invulnarable save. The AP of the weapon is justified due to the fact that thousands of little sharp disks will have a tendency to find the chinks in armourd.

Of course this will be decreed as power gaming, except I do not play Eldar but this is nevertheless what I think they should be.

My 2 cents

more like 20pts +.
why should they be as well trained in combat as a veteran when they are just citizen levies? Poets, weavers, artists etc?
Why should their weapons have 100% chance of penetrating carapice armour when explosive bolts don't?
Why on earth an invulnerable save? Is the common eldar janitor really skillful enough to avoid 1 out of 3 battlecannon shots?

Are you Alessio Calvatore in disguise?
:eek:

Karhedron
03-05-2005, 09:06
Consider Marines as the Baseline. Then ask yourself some questions about the Eldar.

Is an Eldar faster than a marine? Yes.
Is the Eldar less strong/tough than a marine? Yes
Are the Eldar less well armoured than a marine? Yes
Are the Eldar supposed to be a dying race? Yes
Are the Eldar supposed to be the most advanced Zeno Race? Yes
The problem is that it is not that simple. The points cost for units depends somewhat on how they are used in the army, you cannot apply a simple comparison like this to come up with stats and points.

For example, consider an Ork Trukk which costs 30 points (IIRC). It is fast but fragile and carries a dangerous but poorly armoured cargo. It is priced about right for the army it is part of. Now consider if Space Marines were allowed access to a Fast, open-topped transport. It would allow Marines to hurtle around at great speed and also disembark and assault in the same turn. In a space Marine army it would need to cost at least twice as many points simply because of the increased tactical effectiveness it would allow the Marines themselves.

You have to consider the army as a whole when working out respective points values, you cannot simply apply a constant formula when working out how much units should cost. The whole army has to work together as a cohesive whole. Part of the problem with the current Eldar list is that there are several units which just do not work very well or are wrong from a conceptual point of view. It is not hard to build a competative Eldar list but about a third of the units in the codex are almost never seen in tournement play. Also there are problems with the basic units and weapons such as Guardians and Shuriken catapults.

SnakeEyes
03-05-2005, 09:56
why should they be as well trained in combat as a veteran when they are just citizen levies? Poets, weavers, artists etc?


Bacause they have nearly all already tread the path of the warrior, but are on other paths now.

Besides, compare them to High Elf Spearmen, they are also militia.

Guardian, 10-12 pts
WS4, BS4, ST3, T3, I4, A1, Ld8, Av 4
Weapons: Shuriken Catapult 18" St4 Ap 5 Assault 2

This is how a basic guardian should look.

As it is, guardians work as a horde, at 8 pts pr model. They need to be more elite, better protected and more expensive. The Eldar simply do not put hordes of crappy civilians into battle. It's a blatant and glaring contradiction to fluff.

Hymirl
03-05-2005, 20:12
This is how a basic guardian should look.

Trouble is that having done that where do you go for the elite units. Whereas most other armies just bump up attacks or str for better trained units the eldar have a more skill related deal.
At the moment there is the rather pleasent system of Skills of 3 for guaridans, 4 for aspect warriors and 5 for exarches. If you want to stick with the High elves comparasion they all jump up one.

While it may raise a smile to think about WS5 banshees hacking their way though marines don't foget that the extra WS you pay for it all but useless against other armies IG/Tau/Sisters etc. And as a result the units will be overcosted for that foe. In a way this is the crippling disadvantage of the high elven infantry, they're almost too elite and get flattened by numbers. Trust me, I play high elves and am of the opinon that they suffer many of the same problems as the current eldar book but for slightly different reasons.

Lastly what about the Dark Eldar? They're full time training and ought to be more skillful than guardians for it? While you may say "I don't play DE so I don't care" they're in the fluff, and fixing guardians to match one part of the fluff doesn't hold much water when it breaks sync with a different part of it.

Just my 2 pence, well actaully about 10 pence seeing as I got somewhat carried away.
Hymirl.

Grand_Marshal_Kazan
03-05-2005, 20:40
First of all welcome back Portent. Have missed you all.

Secondly, after all this conversation the order of codex release is Tyranids, Black Templars, ?, ?, ?, ?, ?, ?, etc. :D

boogle
03-05-2005, 20:57
The basic Dark Eldar Warrior is WS and BS 4 so they are better trained in terms of gmaeplay than their craftword brothers

glimli
04-05-2005, 04:57
anyone know the exact release date of the woodelves? it should ber roughly around september due to the gw six month reveiw policy.

Gannon
04-05-2005, 06:09
I daenna really care who's next. I have my space marines and Chaos. Who won't see any love for a while yet so I don't have to worry. If I had to venture a guess It'd be:

Templars
Orks
Eldar

JMHO

sulla
04-05-2005, 07:32
The basic Dark Eldar Warrior is WS and BS 4 so they are better trained in terms of gmaeplay than their craftword brothers

Yes, but if we went by Darius Rhiannon's ideas for Eldar. guardians would be ws4, bs4 and have a 5+ invulnerable save, so DE warriors (who are better trained by comparison) would have to be even better stats than that. It's just one area where the concept of boosting guardian stats falls down...

Karhedron
04-05-2005, 10:12
I don't have a problem with Guardian stats really. Although they are militia, they are still better than IG who are lifetime soldiers.

My problem with Guardians is their role in the army. They should be used support Aspect Warriors, hold objectives and bolster weakened lines. To do this they need longer ranged weaponry. Fragile troops (who do not excel in HtH) should not be given short-ranged weapons unless they are part of a horde army. Eldar are too few for large mobs of Guardians that rush forward suicidally into shuricat range.

To fix Guardians, the Shuricat should be upped to at least 18" range or prefferably 24". This would allow them to flit about the flanks of a battle harrassing the enemy and pulling back to strike again elsewhere. This is far more suiting to Eldar than a mad rush of Guardians trying to rush in and deliver a one-shot "shurican bomb".

charlie_c67
04-05-2005, 10:13
anyone know the exact release date of the woodelves? it should ber roughly around september due to the gw six month reveiw policy.

Woodelves? :wtf: Are you 100% sure you know where you are?

And as to Guardians, they are more of a militia I don't think it says anywhere that they have been on a warrior path already and even if they had they're less likely to do intensive weapons training due to the other jobs they'll be doing. Therefor a 50/50 chance of hitting a target's about right I feel.

worldshatterer
04-05-2005, 10:34
The only fluff i remember relating guardians to aspect warriors, was that the original guardian sergeants were former aspect warriors . As for guardians being former aspect warriors, wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference to their battlefield abilities. All the reflexes and skills of an aspect warrior are the product of a dissassociated personality that can only become the dominant one when donning the aspect armour .

As for guardian armament, why not just switch the stats for the shuricat and the splinter rifle around? then guns that suit both of the eldar races would be in the appropriate hands .

sulla
05-05-2005, 07:53
I don't have a problem with Guardian stats really. Although they are militia, they are still better than IG who are lifetime soldiers.

My problem with Guardians is their role in the army. They should be used support Aspect Warriors, hold objectives and bolster weakened lines. To do this they need longer ranged weaponry. Fragile troops (who do not excel in HtH) should not be given short-ranged weapons unless they are part of a horde army. Eldar are too few for large mobs of Guardians that rush forward suicidally into shuricat range.

To fix Guardians, the Shuricat should be upped to at least 18" range or prefferably 24". This would allow them to flit about the flanks of a battle harrassing the enemy and pulling back to strike again elsewhere. This is far more suiting to Eldar than a mad rush of Guardians trying to rush in and deliver a one-shot "shurican bomb".

Hehe, easier to just rewrite the fluff and give guardians splinter weapons and give DE warriors shuricats...

I never got why the cc-lovin DE got long ranged rapid-fire weapons when the shuricat would have suited them so much better...And guardians getting 24" rapid fire so they could actually hang back and support? Sounds good to me. When the introduced the DE it would have ben a good opportunity to do just that.

Karhedron
05-05-2005, 09:08
Hehe, easier to just rewrite the fluff and give guardians splinter weapons and give DE warriors shuricats....
Agreed. Guardians with longer range would give them some survivability while DE Warriors would be able to get a lot of value out of Shruicats with drive-by shootings from their Raiders.

Farseer Cirdan
17-05-2005, 00:32
I don't have a problem with Guardian stats really. Although they are militia, they are still better than IG who are lifetime soldiers.

My problem with Guardians is their role in the army. They should be used support Aspect Warriors, hold objectives and bolster weakened lines. To do this they need longer ranged weaponry. Fragile troops (who do not excel in HtH) should not be given short-ranged weapons unless they are part of a horde army. Eldar are too few for large mobs of Guardians that rush forward suicidally into shuricat range.

To fix Guardians, the Shuricat should be upped to at least 18" range or prefferably 24". This would allow them to flit about the flanks of a battle harrassing the enemy and pulling back to strike again elsewhere. This is far more suiting to Eldar than a mad rush of Guardians trying to rush in and deliver a one-shot "shurican bomb".
Amen and Amen. Very well said Karhedron.

SnakeEyes
17-05-2005, 12:52
Oh man, this thread has gone wildly off topic. Try to bring it back to rumours on the next codex, eh?

boogle
17-05-2005, 16:29
we dn't need to, as we are 99.9% certain that BT are next (in fact i'm 100% certain)

SnakeEyes
17-05-2005, 20:33
we dn't need to, as we are 99.9% certain that BT are next (in fact i'm 100% certain)

And then? From the GD Baltimore discussion it seems Tau are next. At any rate, I belive in keeping threads on topic generally, but if the mods are fine with it, I won't bother commenting on it.

Xisor
18-05-2005, 22:08
Out of interest, as I'm unable to scan back the majority of this thread. What are peoples guesstimations on the likelyhood of the Dark Eldar Codex being released as the second 'after' the Eldar codex?

In this manner, presuming that the intervening codex would be a mini-marine codex, they could tie those marines in heavily with the Eldar as a race. The Dark Angels could be shoehorned here I believe, though this is really wild speculation to be honest.

Xisor

SnakeEyes
18-05-2005, 23:40
I think a safe bet is Orks as the big xeno after Eldar. I'd not be looking too hard for the Dark Kin before fall 07 at the soonest.

Inquisitor Engel
19-05-2005, 00:37
we dn't need to, as we are 99.9% certain that BT are next (in fact i'm 100% certain)

I have a bloody copy. I'm holding it. Right now.

Black Templars are next.

Barring the end of the world, the nuking of Lenton or the catastophic burning of the printers, the Black Templars Codex will be released next. (In either unfortunate case, I'll have one of the only copies! :P)

Lion El Jason
19-05-2005, 01:57
I have a bloody copy. I'm holding it. Right now.


Bitch! Can you lend it to me???

SnakeEyes
19-05-2005, 15:06
Engel, since you're "in the loop", please tell me you know something more on an Eldar codex? Pretty please?? *bambi eyes*

Ork Wolf
19-05-2005, 18:16
If you are holding it, which I would soooo want to believe, say something about the changes, not just the regular rumours but something unusual.

boogle
19-05-2005, 18:44
did you not read his post, his NDA does not allow him to divulge any info, think yourself very lucky that Engel has put his neck on the line to tell you that BT are going to be next, because he could lose his playtester status if too much is given out

Inquisitor Engel
19-05-2005, 21:57
If you are holding it, which I would soooo want to believe, say something about the changes, not just the regular rumours but something unusual.

Let me put it this way.

"No."

Boogle has it right. I'm not saying word one about it until I'm allowed to. I'm confirming that it's next, that is all.

Baltimore GD also confirmed it although some people don't read correctly - In the same manner as they didn't say anything about Tau, yet it's "OMFG ALL BUT CONFURMED NOWZORZ!!111" :rolleyes:

Zustiur
20-05-2005, 05:57
Out of curiosity, does a page count breach the NDA?

Zustiur.

Brimstone
20-05-2005, 06:15
Out of curiosity, does a page count breach the NDA?

Zustiur.

Read the last post by Engel, note the "not one word about it" comment.

I don't expect any more questions asking for more information of any sort.

rkunisch
20-05-2005, 12:09
I don't expect any more questions asking for more information of any sort.
Then you are really optmistic. :p

Have fun,

Rolf.

boogle
20-05-2005, 12:10
i guess anymore questions of that nature will just get deleted

Ork Wolf
23-05-2005, 08:49
Okay, sorry. I missed that post.

GreatWolf
23-05-2005, 16:08
SPACE WOLVES WOULD BE NICE!!!

They really need to be brought into 4th ed. desparately. (If only to end the controversy!!)

The Beast
30-05-2005, 16:22
Like we really need ANOTHER space marine codex. Come on Dark eldar. As soon as they redo all of those ugly elite models. (Yes, I think all the dark eldar elite models are ugly) I will start an army.

Delicious Soy
31-05-2005, 05:08
Only the elite models? All their infantry are in dire need of review, pity because they have such a solid army list. I'd really like my Eldar codex, but orks could do with a touch up as well. But is seems that Tau are emerging as firm favourites after BT's.

Perhaps GW should look at a more varied method of releases. Mainly because some codecies (like orks and DE) are strong ruleswise but weak in terms of models. I think it would be worth looking into releasing new models in a sort of 'drip feed' system then splurging on new models for new units included in the codex. This would have the advantage of keeping people interested in their armies while waiting for the codex, and would drum up interest in those armies that while having potential in the background and rules, are sorely lacking models of the same quality as newer races.

Mojaco
03-06-2005, 16:54
If anybody wants touchable proof of BT next, please be sure to look at the underside of any SM box. Notice a certain colourscheme coming back with high regulary?
Black, white... ok, granted, the chapter symbol seems to have changed, but I bet you you're looking at BT there.

And no, it doesn't go for all boxes, I know.

lord_blackfang
03-06-2005, 17:04
If anybody wants touchable proof of BT next,


Engle's word is good enough for me.

Durham_red
03-06-2005, 17:09
If anybody wants touchable proof of BT next, please be sure to look at the underside of any SM box. Notice a certain colourscheme coming back with high regulary?
Black, white... ok, granted, the chapter symbol seems to have changed, but I bet you you're looking at BT there.

And no, it doesn't go for all boxes, I know.

What? you mean the Ravenguard army thats featured in Codex: Space Marines

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Mojaco
04-06-2005, 14:33
Yea yea, I was mistaken there....

No, wait, it was just a joke! Haha, you fell for it!

SnakeEyes
04-06-2005, 16:45
Yea yea, I was mistaken there....

No, wait, it was just a joke! Haha, you fell for it!

Real smooth :P

BT's are out next, and that's certain unless the world ends before that time.

What I want, is some confirmation on the next dex, (best rumours suggest Tau).

t-tauri
04-06-2005, 17:21
What I want, is some confirmation on the next dex, (best rumours suggest Tau).
Some fairly well informed people are insisting this is confusion between the imminent release of Forgeworld's Imperial Armour 3 and whatever the next codex is. i.e. the Tau list that everyone is tallking about as being imminent is that in IA3 and not the next codex.

Adama
04-06-2005, 19:32
What I want, is some confirmation on the next dex, (best rumours suggest Tau).

What rumours? All I've seen over the entire internet are just people speculating.

I personally don't think we'll have a Codex release after BT's until Eldar or Orks, and that will be a long time.

Cyberjankie
04-06-2005, 20:04
there where this Tau rumours! I think from people, who where at GT Canada and Austria and said, they talked with GW-Guys...

salty
04-06-2005, 20:18
Okay, I've skipped A LOT of pages here, so bear with me...

As concerns Orks, I have heard on The Waaagh! forums that the Orks will be done no earlier than Christmas 2006, more likely Spring/Summer 2007. The Eldar are likely to come after that (mostly because the Orks badly need new vehicle kits; the Eldar models aren't too bad). Therefore, I feel that the Tau will almost certainly come after Codex BT's.

Salty :)

Durham_red
04-06-2005, 20:20
Yea yea, I was mistaken there....

No, wait, it was just a joke! Haha, you fell for it!


Or is it your just covering your tracks ;)

Voss
05-06-2005, 04:33
So, the lesson from 20 pages of speculation is that the Black Templars are next (which Pete Haines more or less said at GD-Baltimore), and that beyond that, its essentially locked down?

Or is there something concrete that someone credible can actually talk about & point to?

As for the BTs- what time frame are we talking? Wood Elves seem to have late July and August, with some Lord of the Rings stuff in August/September. So are we looking at October/November or later?

aznsk8s87
05-06-2005, 12:01
Yeah. that's pretty much the schedule. :D

blitz589
05-06-2005, 22:50
Eldar are to good right now, and need to be toned down, they have a weapon for every type of unit.

aznsk8s87
06-06-2005, 06:12
Er i wouldn't say that they're too good. what do you mean " they have a weapon for every type of unit" ? i don't quite uderstand your phrasing.

75hastings69
06-06-2005, 08:10
Although i don't normally post on 40k threads i can confirm that Black Templars are xmas 2005 release.

mightymouse
06-06-2005, 08:16
Actually I did hear on the grape vine that the whole ork range is being redone with some very cool vehicles. The multi way assembly battlewagon was thrown around also. Black templars look cool very knighty looking with many maltese cross medieval templar resemblances. Although I think alienhunters are on their way too thats just guessing though.

mightymouse
06-06-2005, 08:20
oh yeah I agree that Tau are on their way. Im told the new stealth suits look cool looking less like a big fire warrior. Being more set into their armour little like termies are.

Karhedron
06-06-2005, 10:50
Eldar are to good right now, and need to be toned down, they have a weapon for every type of unit.
And Space Marines don't? :eyebrows: Facing other marines they can load up on plasma, take a Vindicator etc. Against hordes they have heavy bolters etc. Lots of armies are tactically flexible either in terms of the units they can field and the weaponry they havce access to. This is not the problem with Eldar.

Eldar don't need toning down, what they need is rebalancing. Currently half the units in the army are very poor value for the points which leads to players only fielding the other half most of the time. This leads to complaints of cheese and predictability.

What the Eldar need is for units like Jetbikes, Shining Spears, Dire Avengers and possibly a few others to be made a lot more viable so that Eldar players have some options open to them. Then there would be more to Eldar the the all-Aspect host or the shooty-starcannon-army-of-doom.

Sai-Lauren
06-06-2005, 11:50
Eldar don't need toning down, what they need is rebalancing. Currently half the units in the army are very poor value for the points which leads to players only fielding the other half most of the time. This leads to complaints of cheese and predictability.

What the Eldar need is for units like Jetbikes, Shining Spears, Dire Avengers and possibly a few others to be made a lot more viable so that Eldar players have some options open to them. Then there would be more to Eldar the the all-Aspect host or the shooty-starcannon-army-of-doom.
Agreed, do that alongside upgrading the shuri-cat, adding the Autarch, refining the psychic powers (and maybe the Avatar) and a quick polish of the fluff and they're ready to go again.

All they then need is the craftworld variation lists, most of which can just be taken from Craftworld and EoT, the only new one is if they do Altanasar.

Lion El Jason
06-06-2005, 12:20
Shuri-cats are fine.

Sildani
06-06-2005, 13:05
No, their range is a bit short when their effectiveness is taken into account. Most opponents I've played use a variation of Space Marines, which can shrug off my catapult fire. The short range of the catapult then guarantees that my barely-touched enemy will be in charge range of all my T3 5+ save troops. A BS3 starcannon (if taken at all) can only do so much. A massacre usually follows.

No, the Eldar need a better basic weapon.

worldshatterer
06-06-2005, 13:33
shuricats are fine- just don't consider them as an offensive weapon for fighting marines . They're a defensive last ditch weapon for protecting the weapons platform vs heavy infantry, or for mopping up horde units. the range isn't too bad as long as you let the enemy come to you .

Adama
06-06-2005, 13:51
shuricats are fine- just don't consider them as an offensive weapon for fighting marines . They're a defensive last ditch weapon for protecting the weapons platform vs heavy infantry, or for mopping up horde units. the range isn't too bad as long as you let the enemy come to you .

But that's exactly what Guardians should NOT be. Using living things as meat shields is a Chaos or Ork tactic, not the choice ablative armour of a dying race...

The Beast
06-06-2005, 14:19
What the Eldar need is for units like Jetbikes, Shining Spears, Dire Avengers and possibly a few others to be made a lot more viable so that Eldar players have some options open to them. Then there would be more to Eldar the the all-Aspect host or the shooty-starcannon-army-of-doom.
I mostly agree except for the bikes. Isn't it nice to move in the assault phase and not actually have to assault? Jump out of cover, shoot, jump back in. they come to assault you move 24" and another 6" assault move back into cover farther away.

Lion El Jason
06-06-2005, 14:20
Then why are they called Guardians?

There's a difference between using them as ablative armour or a meat shield and using them as a defensive unit.

I know at least 2 eldar players in this area who use large units of guardians with shuricats and consider the unit to be their central important units in their lists.

Antaeus
06-06-2005, 14:20
I seriosuly doubt that, background-wise, that's what Guardians are use for in Eldar armies. I view tham as a unit that exist so that Eldar armies are of a decent size: yes, they're a dying race, but that doesn't mean their armies need to be small. Guardians are not trained soldiers, and as such should not be capable of downing Space Marines, etc easily. They are the Eldar's Imperial Guard: however, their battle plan does not revolve around them dying en masse more that they pick their fights so that they kill enough of the enemy that they cannot effectively strike back: hence Fleet of foot and a good weapon. Yes, the Shuriken catapult is a good weapon, especially in the hands of 8pt Troops (cheap enough that you can field a big unit). The main concern is against Marines: Marines who cost almost twice as much as the Guardians. Guardians aren't meant to be able to stand up to elite troops: that's what Banshees, Scorpions etc are for. And why Guardians are so cheap.

I wouldn't be against an upgrade to an 18" range (with a points increase) but I personally think the things are ok as they are for a numerous unit.

And this seems to have wandered off-topic a bit, but such is life.

Derling
06-06-2005, 15:37
Then why are they called Guardians?

.

using that rational The U.S. Army Rangers can only be used to enure that clever bears don't run around Jellystone park stealing Pick-a-nick baskets!

Hey Boo-Boo!

Black Mage
06-06-2005, 18:26
rang·er Pronunciation Key (ranjer)
n.

1. A wanderer; a rover.
2. A member of an armed troop employed in patrolling a specific region.
3. A member of a group of soldiers specially trained for making raids either on foot, in ground vehicles, or by airlift.
4.
a. A warden employed to maintain and protect a natural area, such as a forest or park.
b. Chiefly British. The keeper of a royal forest or park.

guard·i·an Pronunciation Key (gärd-ien)
n.

1. One that guards, watches over, or protects.
2. Law. One who is legally responsible for the care and management of the person or property of an incompetent or a minor.
3. A superior in a Franciscan monastery.

There, now you have the respective definitions of the terms.

Back on topic. YAY TEMPLARS!!! The actual release date seems rather in the air. Some people hear as early as october, whilst others say Xmas. A three month gap narrows it considerably, but I want it as soon as possible. Has anyone got a link or an idea of what the BT cover artwork looks like? I've hear that some people have seen it, but i've not been able to nail down a decent pic.

Wintermute
06-06-2005, 19:35
Back on topic. YAY TEMPALRS!!! The actual release date seems rather in the air. Some people hear as early as october, whilst others say Xmas. A three month gap narrows it considerably, but I want it as soon as possible. Has anyone got a link or an idea of what the BT cover artwork looks like? I've hear that some people have seen it, but i've not been able to nail down a decent pic.

The BT Codex, and its subsequent supporting minis, will be released in October/November - not Christmas. The Christmas releases ie December/January will be a WFB army release.

This would follow the pattern of 2004's release schedule.

Brimstone
06-06-2005, 19:39
This is a reminder to the previous posters, please stay on topic, if you wish to discuss the Eldar do it in another thread, this one is on release dates.

The Portent Inquisition.

Black Mage
06-06-2005, 20:37
The BT Codex, and its subsequent supporting minis, will be released in October/November - not Christmas. The Christmas releases ie December/January will be a WFB army release.

This would follow the pattern of 2004's release schedule.


Ah, ok, this clears up the confusion quite well, quite well. Thanks

Derling
07-06-2005, 02:44
rang·er Pronunciation Key (ranjer)
n.

1. A wanderer; a rover.
2. A member of an armed troop employed in patrolling a specific region.
3. A member of a group of soldiers specially trained for making raids either on foot, in ground vehicles, or by airlift.
4.
a. A warden employed to maintain and protect a natural area, such as a forest or park.
b. Chiefly British. The keeper of a royal forest or park.


That's very interesting. Outside of definition #3 (which coincidentally came about with the inception of the Ranger battallions. Appearantly, they used to a time machine to find out what they should call modern crack light infantry regiments.), these don't really fit the actuallity of what a an army ranger actually does.

Just because you know the address for dictionary.com, please don't think it makes your point, or break mine, any more than it truly does. If you want to do that, go to encyclopedia.com and find something valuable to say. (Sorry for the bother Engel. mine was just a funny crack (at least those old enough to remember Yogi. Black Mage's was mildly vindictive for some reason. don't hold it against me okay? ;) )

anywho back to the topic on hand. I think they will first release Codex: Icecream Vendors. mmmmm... ice cream.

Derling
07-06-2005, 02:57
guard·i·an Pronunciation Key (gärd-ien)
n.

1. One that guards, watches over, or protects.
2. Law. One who is legally responsible for the care and management of the person or property of an incompetent or a minor.
3. A superior in a Franciscan monastery.

There, now you have the respective definitions of the terms.



Just to make things perfectly clear, I did not expect your Oxford Nineteenth edition Collegiate dictionary to include the fourth definition

"4. the citizen militia of a spacefairing pointy eared race who aid thier bulbous drifting craftworld in both attack and defense."

Additionally, I checked the dictionary for "zoanthrope" and it turned up nothing (well I found "zoanthropy- the delusion that one is becoming an animal", but that doesn't quite fit.) based on dictionary definitions, I guess Tyrnanid players will have to throw out these models.

Is that "respective" enough for you, BM?? :eek:

LO Roxxors
07-06-2005, 03:14
I'm pretty certain its gonna be something like this order:

Orks
Alien Hunters
Eldar
Tau
Blood Angels
Dark Angels
Space Wolves
Dark Eldar
Necrons
Imperial Guard
Chaos

Black Mage
07-06-2005, 04:05
Eh, I just found the whole definition debate pointless, and decided to make a point about that. No vindictiveness or malice intended.

x-esiv-4c
07-06-2005, 04:12
Orks and Eldar need the revamp. I'd rather see the Eldar getting their new codex before the Alienhunters.

Brimstone
07-06-2005, 05:39
Orks and Eldar need the revamp. I'd rather see the Eldar getting their new codex before the Alienhunters.

Don't worry that list doesn't have much resemblance to the probable one.

Alienhunters are some time away.

charlie_c67
08-06-2005, 11:02
So after 22 pages we're now at the point to say BT's are third, Tau are possibly/probably 4th and then? If the ork and Eldar rumours are true there's another 1 or two (most likely SM's) to fit in.

IceFire
08-06-2005, 21:38
any idea about rough dates of release for the next coupla codex's? (sorry if this was mentioned, i tried but skimming through 22 pages is exhausting...)

blitz589
09-06-2005, 00:45
Black templars are said to be done around xmas, then orks by may.

From guy that works at now GW hobby store so take it for what you think its worth

aznsk8s87
09-06-2005, 01:40
I honestly can't see the point in tau being redone while orks and eldar (and DE for God's sake) are still hanging dry.

Fulcrum
09-06-2005, 02:11
As a Blood Angels player, I hope that BA are next but i know that the Orks deserve it more... so i think that Orks will be after BT followed by (hopefully) the BA and perhaps the Eldar after that... from what i hear around here, they need quite alot of work.

Happy to be on Portent for the first time!

Delicious Soy
09-06-2005, 02:17
I'm pretty certain its gonna be something like this order:

Orks
Alien Hunters
Eldar
Tau
Blood Angels
Dark Angels
Space Wolves
Dark Eldar
Necrons
Imperial Guard
ChaosThat kinda contradictsw the whole Imperium-Xenos-Imperium thing. If I was to have a random stab I'd say it would go something akin to

BT
Tau
Space Wolves
Eldar
Blood Angels
Orks
Dark Angels
Dark Eldar
Alienhunters
Necrons
Limited campaign book like Lustria featuring a Mechanicus List
Chaos
IG
Harlequins (OK probably not. But we can hope and pray and threaten :p)

PenZillA
09-06-2005, 05:40
How come Tau would be after BT? Wasnt there codex made for 4th edition?

Alikar
09-06-2005, 06:10
Tau need a small amount of rules fixing since while they were made for 4th edition they still had some design flaws. Plus GW wants to represent their ever changing technology. Though I personally disagree that they are after BT. They probably need about as much time as codex catchans, maybe a little more. So personally I could see them releasing any fixes in time for a campaign, but not anytime before then. After all Eldar and Orks are in desperate need of attention.

Brimstone
09-06-2005, 06:20
It's looking increasingly likely that the Tau are indeed after the Black Templars.

The current question is when, as Woodies are due in July there is quite a gap between them and the original proposed BT date of October/November with the Tau out between January and Easter 2006.

Because of that a alternate school of though has arised with the BT out in September/October and the Tau taking the Christmas slot.

Time will tell but I prefer the former at the moment.

After that we have no idea only speculation and mine is Blood Angels, the whole Imperium/Xenos alternating thing is like the 6 month gap not something GW ever confirmed.

Wintermute
09-06-2005, 07:30
It's looking increasingly likely that the Tau are indeed after the Black Templars.

The current question is when, as Woodies are due in July there is quite a gap between them and the original proposed BT date of October/November with the Tau out between January and Easter 2006.

That gap will be filled by LoTR releases ;)

Delicious Soy
09-06-2005, 08:04
LOTR as the big christmas release? Seems a little risky giving the drop in LOTR sales. Unless this is their attempt to prop them up.

Isuran Greifenherz
09-06-2005, 08:39
I don't think they are doing to do tau that early, beause there are many other codex which really need updating.

charlie_c67
09-06-2005, 10:30
Errr why not? Get the dexes that need the least work out the way sooner leaves more time to sort out those that do. Patience is a virtue.

rkunisch
09-06-2005, 11:14
LOTR as the big christmas release? Seems a little risky giving the drop in LOTR sales. Unless this is their attempt to prop them up.
Well, it is the new starter box, Mines of Moria with a new hardback rule book. It would take about the same slot as Battle for Macragge did. Makes perfect sense to me.

Have fun,

Rolf.

Delicious Soy
09-06-2005, 13:40
Ahh okay, I didn't know about that, I rarely pay attention to the LOTR releases.

sjakus
14-06-2005, 11:47
Hey, just a thought, but I wanted to share it with you :p
Since the terminators have been remade now, it will be very easy to make Deathwing ones for the DA codex. So that shouldn't be the new big Space Marine mini-revamp coming out with the codex.
But the Marine bikes are getting a little old by now, so what about Ravenwing? And that would bring the C: DA a bit more foreward in the possible 'releaslist'... or maybe I'm just hoping too much now :rolleyes:

Sjakus

charlie_c67
14-06-2005, 11:50
Problem with the bikes is they've not long been re-cut! So I'm afraid I can't see them being done again for a good long time.

rkunisch
14-06-2005, 11:56
Only because they get old does not mean that they are bad. I like the bikes in the current version. A codex for DA not only needs Deathwing. There have also to be some robed Marines. I also would think that the Deathwing Terminators will get an extra sprue to make them something special. And last but not least there are some (metal) characters to be remade for them. Nice thought, but your guess is as bad (or good) as mine. :p

Have fun,

Rolf.

Odin
14-06-2005, 12:56
Only because they get old does not mean that they are bad. I like the bikes in the current version.

Really? I think they're the worst models in the current SM range - certainly from a realism point of view they just don't work. The footrests are so low it'd take half an hour to turn a 90 degree corner.

I bet they won't be redone for a while though, unfortunately. My Ravenwing army can wait until they do.

Dante
14-06-2005, 13:01
Really? I think they're the worst models in the current SM range - certainly from a realism point of view they just don't work. The footrests are so low it'd take half an hour to turn a 90 degree corner.

I bet they won't be redone for a while though, unfortunately. My Ravenwing army can wait until they do.

If you nitpick all such details you´ll have a great task ahead of you... :rolleyes:
The ground clearance of a Land Raider, Land Speeders - explain that technology...! :p

C´mon...

Lady's Champion
14-06-2005, 13:43
They will redo codexes that need least work first- soon will be a new Warhammer Dwarf book, but their need is not great- and the Wood Elves who needed the most work- were last!

So it will happen again in 40k

charlie_c67
14-06-2005, 14:22
So you don't think the BT dex needs a lot of work?

x-esiv-4c
14-06-2005, 14:59
Is the Tau redux a rumor or is there some reality behind it? I guess it was a rumor floating around here a while back...

charlie_c67
14-06-2005, 15:09
Depends when you think it's coming out, if you're expecting it this summer, then there's as much truth to it as the piltdown man. If your expecting it as codex number 4....it's possible.

x-esiv-4c
14-06-2005, 15:17
I wasn't even expecting a revamp for ages! I was under the impression that the Tau-dex was written with 4th edition in mind, however I might be wrong. I guess the order of the codex comes down to marketing values.

Wintermute
14-06-2005, 18:30
Hey, just a thought, but I wanted to share it with you :p
Since the terminators have been remade now, it will be very easy to make Deathwing ones for the DA codex. So that shouldn't be the new big Space Marine mini-revamp coming out with the codex.
But the Marine bikes are getting a little old by now, so what about Ravenwing? And that would bring the C: DA a bit more foreward in the possible 'releaslist'... or maybe I'm just hoping too much now :rolleyes:

Sjakus

Forge World are currently working on shoulder pads and torsos for Deathwing Terminators and they should be available in 2-3 months.

Great Harlequin
14-06-2005, 18:35
I wasn't even expecting a revamp for ages! I was under the impression that the Tau-dex was written with 4th edition in mind, however I might be wrong. I guess the order of the codex comes down to marketing values.
Not an entire revamp. More of a revised edition. New allies and new stealthsuits should be coming out.

x-esiv-4c
14-06-2005, 18:46
New stealthsuits? I haven't heard of this. Can someone please elaborate on this?

Adama
14-06-2005, 19:17
Forge World has confused their own work with GW.

Until I see a Codex: Tau sitting in front of me, I'm going with the idea that it's pure poppycock.

Agamemnon2
14-06-2005, 21:06
No, Forge World has not confused anything. It is not they who are claiming a new Tau codex is coming out, but incessant rumormongers across this great wasteland of useless data that is called the Internet.

charlie_c67
15-06-2005, 09:35
That's why you use the edit then delete buttons Limelord and no double posting. Just an hint for future reference so you don't get your ass handed to you on a plate by the Inquisition :D