PDA

View Full Version : Tyranids, are they really such a big threat?



Vesica
22-02-2008, 00:51
I realise that they are all but unstopable and all that jazz, and that thier could be millions more of them waiting in the void.

But the word could got me thinking, imagine if their isnt anymore tyranids waiting to come get us, all we have to go on is basically heresay and rumors and as we all know they can be terribly terribly wrong.

So i just wanted to say that after seeing post about how they are mankinds greatest threat and so on, that they might not be they might be a minor threat.

Also whilst on topic, isnt thier a chance that mankind could create a biological weapon to infect tyranids with? something akin to say war of the worlds or Evolution (more so Evolution as they have similar traits with the mutating to become imune to things)

Just something i was thinking about.

Khaine's Messenger
22-02-2008, 01:04
Also whilst on topic, isnt thier a chance that mankind could create a biological weapon to infect tyranids with?

There is a 100% probability of this happening, since it has happened at least twice to my knowledge (albeit it was specific to a particular Hive Fleet in the instance we actually see it being delivered...Warriors of Ultramar). However, Tyranid background thus far would seem to indicate that deploying biological weapons against Tyranids is counter-productive in the long run since their space-based contingents can contain their spread and dissect them at their own leisure to turn back on us as they see fit. There was a bit about deploying Exterminatus weapons against them in space that noted something to that effect. There's also the problem of making sure that it's effective on all Tyranids, and considering how they're put together (re: Xenology), add the variability across hive fleets, it's quite possible that making a disease/virus/other would just encourage them. And then there's the horrible possibility that enough mutation in the "disease" through Tyrannic immune systems could make it contagious amongst humans as well...especially considering phenomena like Genestealer Cults.

That, and having a magic "off" button for any particular threat would be contrary to "feel" of the setting. Even if it is just "hard to deploy" but otherwise works like a charm.

Now, do I think they're a big threat? Yeah. But the threat isn't really from what Nids are here now, or even how they "adapt" around problems (itself something of an interesting conversation topic), but just from their ever-presence. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but eventually...and they're coming. Greatest threat? I don't think so. But that's for the other thread, I think. ;)

Imperialis_Dominatus
22-02-2008, 05:48
Look out for Baltar. He will be here soon to defend the Tyranid's honor (?) and superiority.

azimaith
22-02-2008, 06:13
Even if that were all the tyranids left theres still a rather huge number in leviathan and the splinter fleets are still prowling the void.

As for bio weapons, as mentioned they've already been deployed. One listing in the nid codex has it working as a rather astounding success as it was delivered into the heart of the fleet (I think it supposedly infected a norn queen or something) the other had them turning it back on those who used it on them. There doesn't seem to be much they don't adapt too. They even have tyranids designed to open up magma vents under the ground to provide warm fast moving air to brood nests and spore chimneys.

Iracundus
22-02-2008, 06:38
Also whilst on topic, isnt thier a chance that mankind could create a biological weapon to infect tyranids with? something akin to say war of the worlds or Evolution (more so Evolution as they have similar traits with the mutating to become imune to things)

Between heavy bolter Hellfire rounds and the one off weapon used in Warriors of Ultramar, the answer to that question is yes. The Imperium has created and attempted multiple means both biological and chemical to try and gain an advantage over the Tyranids. However, even as early as 2nd ed., it was stated that Tyranids were incredibly resistant to most known toxins (in game terms back then they were "immune" on the tabletop) and those that did work usually took far too long for practical battlefield use or required impractically large quantities. That combined with the genetic divergence of each particular fleet and splinter fleet along with their hyper-mutability, as evidenced by the limited application of the Warriors of Ultramar weapon, means the Imperium has not found any lasting means to give them an advantage.

The longest practical toxin the Imperium seems to have in its arsenal is the Hellfire round but those have not changed the strategic situation, as they are uncommon and require individual loading and firing.

javgoro
22-02-2008, 10:13
The thing with Tyranids is not that they are a big threat, itīs that they are a big threat of which the Imperium knows very little, and is at a loss about how to combat it. With Chaos, faith and firepower works. Against the Eldar, being wary and firepower works. Against the Orks, firepower (and beheading the waagh!) works. Against the Necrons... well, we donīt know much about the Necrons, but so far, firepower has worked. See a trend? In the case of Tyranids, simple firepower doesnīt really work, so traditional means havenīt worked well, and the success of new means has been little, and thatīs on an optimistic asessment of the situation. Add to that the fact that, in truth, we donīt know how many there are, and things start getting pretty damn scary.
Now, at this point, the Imperium may hit the jackpot at some point and find a decent way to contain the Tyranids (perhaps controlling part of the Hive Mind so it turns on itself? Biological Weapons? Going for the breeders instead of the actual armies? Firepower in greater quantities? Who knows? Itīs not like GW is gonna tell us anyway, since the more ****ed up the Imperium is, the better), but so far, they havenīt. Thatīs what makes them such a big threat.

Now, letīs put things on perspective. Chaos have been a huge threat for 10000+ years, and yet no conclusion has been reached in that sense. It stands to reason that the Imperium may eventually find a way to fight the Tyranids to a standstill soon, the status quo will be kept, and GW will be able to milk us for cash for another 10K years ;)

Asentaja
23-02-2008, 11:09
No matter what the Tyranids come up with next, no matter how many there are and no matter how many worlds they devour, mankind will always triumph over them in the end. That is because the mankind is protected by an entity which the Tyranids don't have. I'm not talking about that vegetable-like so-called-Emperor, I'm talking about the greatest god of all, GW :p

But seriously, the Tyranids are one of those unstoppable threats the mankind is facing, just like Necrons are. In the end, mankind will fall, for nothing is eternal. But that won't happen for a long time, there will be plenty of fighting to do before that :evilgrin:

MADJAP77
23-02-2008, 20:14
humans did make an anit-bug device...but lost the technology after the heresy...LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE!!!!!!

Kandarin
24-02-2008, 02:32
humans did make an anit-bug device...but lost the technology after the heresy...LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE!!!!!!

Fear not, O doubtful acolyte, one day the Adeptus Mechanicus whall recover the STC for toilet paper and proper plumbing, and on that day the Eldar shall speak of filthy humans no longer.

Hasan ibn Sabbah
24-02-2008, 11:41
Fear not, O doubtful acolyte, one day the Adeptus Mechanicus whall recover the STC for toilet paper and proper plumbing, and on that day the Eldar shall speak of filthy humans no longer.

OMG, You killed me :D

scratchbuilt
24-02-2008, 17:22
Well if the question of whether Tyranids are a super threat or not is based on numbers - I think the doom portents of massive numbers, should be taken as true.
If their threat is based on whether they are an intelligent opponent, not just a plague of locusts, I would say they aren't so smart and not so threatening.

Purely as according to the fluff I've read - which is all the codexes, and several editions backwards all the way to the first space hulk via advanced space crusade. But I haven't read any novels - so I could be missing something there.

Vesica
24-02-2008, 17:55
Lmao, i think the imperium should use a scorched earth approach and destroy all the worlds in their path to starve the litte ********rs, then go in for the kill.

Or for more fun some how spread word of 'da good fightin' to the orks so they go and deal with them.

Moral Wiz
24-02-2008, 18:05
That's more or less what they do, on both counts. Divert Nid fleets to Ork held worlds, and Exterminatus planets whirlst the fleet's are still feasting. It's the main reason they beet the last Hive Fleet.

Iracundus
24-02-2008, 19:59
Lmao, i think the imperium should use a scorched earth approach and destroy all the worlds in their path to starve the litte ********rs, then go in for the kill.

Or for more fun some how spread word of 'da good fightin' to the orks so they go and deal with them.

Kryptmann already tried this. While it slowed Leviathan in the short term, Imperial analysts ultimately concluded it was an untenable long term policy as the Imperium could not afford to lose worlds at that rate. In the Imperium, life is cheap while real estate is valuable.

Kal Taron
24-02-2008, 21:39
Also "starving" the Nids with this tactic should be next to impossible. After all they survived the trip from their galaxy to ours. But you can make them go for more interesting targets and a dead-lock between Orks and Nids would serve the Imperium perfectly.

azimaith
24-02-2008, 22:07
That's more or less what they do, on both counts. Divert Nid fleets to Ork held worlds, and Exterminatus planets whirlst the fleet's are still feasting. It's the main reason they beet the last Hive Fleet.

What makes you think that ork and tyranid fleets are going to let the imperials waltz in and exterminatus them?

If the imperium could do this they'd be wiping out ork worlds left and right.

Even for the worlds in the cordon.

I wouldn't be suprised if they revealed ground based exterminatus arrays on those worlds so they don't have to deal with the above problem.

imperial_scholar
25-02-2008, 17:15
I think that nids are maybe 20% combat in their numbers. Most modern armies carry about two thirds of their number are logistical. I think 20% is fair because the hive fleet needs to carry everything with them and they are terra formers in some shape.

I think though.. because of the nature of how the nids fight its very difficult to fight them as they lack no visible 'head' that they can just walk in and lop off. I think eventually they could figure out a way to beat the nids.... but its a long ways away.

Moral Wiz
25-02-2008, 17:38
What makes you think that ork and tyranid fleets are going to let the imperials waltz in and exterminatus them?

If the imperium could do this they'd be wiping out ork worlds left and right.

Even for the worlds in the cordon.

I wouldn't be suprised if they revealed ground based exterminatus arrays on those worlds so they don't have to deal with the above problem.

Sorry, I should have been clear. They've diverted hive fleets to Ork worlds (Don't ask me how; i think by making geensteeler orks, and sending 'em back home) to occupy the nids, and have extrirminatused their own worlds with the Nids still on them (As seen in tactica imperium). They haven't declared exterminatus on ork worlds, I was talking of two seperate things they've been doing.

scratchbuilt
25-02-2008, 17:39
I could see Nids being slightly above 20%, but not like Orks who are 100% I imagine.

jfrazell
25-02-2008, 17:45
Well we have no knowledge that there are Nid forces still outside the galaxy. Thats a theory. It may be that in the 41st Millennium, they have already weathered the brunt of the storm. The Nids are now a large, but surmountable threat. At least until they join forces with the Pan Fo, then its lights out for everybody of course.

Firaxin
25-02-2008, 19:00
According to certain fluff, Lysander has made contact with the Hive Mind itself.

There are more nids out there. Supposedly dozens of magnitudes more than currently in the galaxy.

100% of tyranids are combat specialists, 100% are transport ships, 100% are terraformers, etc. All biomatter is recycled in the end, and matter that may have been a warrior in a past life may be part of a vital organ in a hive ship in the next.
In the same way, taking over a part of the hivemind to make nids fight eachother? Wouldn't work. They has already been examples of them fighting each other in order to determine which specific biomorph combinations are better. It doesn't matter that they're killing eachother, because the fleet with the better warriors incorporates the entirety of the lesser fleet. Meaning you have the same number of nids, but twice the number of superior nids.

Unclejo
25-02-2008, 19:06
According to certain fluff, Lysander has made contact with the Hive Mind itself.

That was Ultramarines Chief Librarian Tigurius (sp?) wasn't it?

Imperialis_Dominatus
25-02-2008, 20:28
Well we have no knowledge that there are Nid forces still outside the galaxy. Thats a theory. It may be that in the 41st Millennium, they have already weathered the brunt of the storm. The Nids are now a large, but surmountable threat. At least until they join forces with the Pan Fo, then its lights out for everybody of course.

Baltar's going to quote you into oblivion if he ever arrives here. ;)


That was Ultramarines Chief Librarian Tigurius (sp?) wasn't it?

Ar. The man speaketh truth. 'Twas Tigurius, the blue-armored among blue armored megaSMurf shaman lord.

imperial_scholar
25-02-2008, 21:04
I could see Nids being slightly above 20%, but not like Orks who are 100% I imagine.

I can't disagree with ya... but I the truth is that to war that logistics does need to apply. The orks wouldn't be 100% combat in my opinion as that would mean they wouldn't have grots.... but I can agree the orks would have little concern for logistics and would be maybe an 80-90% combat (10-20% logistics). You have to count meks and docs as Logistics (support the fighters). Someone has to make the ammo, and someone has to heal the wounded. If orks were smarter they wouldn't have ammo dumps laying everywhere.


According to certain fluff, Lysander has made contact with the Hive Mind itself.
Lysander!?


There are more nids out there. Supposedly dozens of magnitudes more than currently in the galaxy.

100% of tyranids are combat specialists, 100% are transport ships, 100% are terraformers, etc. All biomatter is recycled in the end, and matter that may have been a warrior in a past life may be part of a vital organ in a hive ship in the next.
In the same way, taking over a part of the hivemind to make nids fight eachother? Wouldn't work. They has already been examples of them fighting each other in order to determine which specific biomorph combinations are better. It doesn't matter that they're killing eachother, because the fleet with the better warriors incorporates the entirety of the lesser fleet. Meaning you have the same number of nids, but twice the number of superior nids.
100%? Maybe 100% of what he saw. The fluff out there already notes smaller non-combat nids. I can agree that the ships can be both transport and combat... but considering how much mass they can strip off a planet they'd need deciated transports. Nids also have ships that act as the eyes and ears of the fleet... so I really think your pulling stuff out of no where.

Nids fighting nids only proves which biomorph is better at fighting nids.

scratchbuilt
25-02-2008, 22:39
Nids are the complete opposite of 100% They travel long distances without warp 'jumps' they harvest planets for energy and recycle their own warriors. This is all intensely labour intensive. (Rather than using plasma, or warp powered engines etc). Tyranids don't have stomachs, they exist on special food created for them. Most of the organism can't even think for themselves. Which might sound cool - but is in fact the opposite of combat effective. So for every 1 gaunt you fight, several have been recycled already, some critters have brought them, slowly across the galaxy. Some critters have turned all the biomass they've sucked into food, several have died due to their lack of tactics, some critters have to do the thinking, some critters have to make the shadow in the warp etc etc.
Essentially the Russian model of warfare wasn't particularly effective. Intelligence and technology is worth more than numbers.

blantyr
26-02-2008, 05:55
I also figure that the way the 40K galaxy is set up, if any one faction starts to gain too large an advantage, a bunch of other factions would gang up on them. The bugs are also a slow threat. If they can't travel faster than light speed, one should have lots of time to scatter orc fungus all over the next world they are due to hit.

Iracundus
26-02-2008, 07:03
Nids are the complete opposite of 100% They travel long distances without warp 'jumps'...


If they can't travel faster than light speed, one should have lots of time to scatter orc fungus all over the next world they are due to hit.

Incorrect on this point. Over and over again people repeat this same fundamental misassumption and mistake about Tyranids. Tyranids use warp travel. See 3rd ed. and 2nd ed. Tyranids and Epic Hive War. In all of these sources, the Tyranids are described exiting the warp, at a further distance than comparable Imperial ships perhaps but still utilizing warp travel. All official background has always stated Tyranids use warp travel.

omera
26-02-2008, 12:05
Tyranids fight each other?

FrankManic
26-02-2008, 12:16
Actually, there are only about 3.2 billion Tyranids in all of space. The reason they get so much press about being the big bad to end all big bads is that fully fully half of those Tyranids are communications or marketing majors, and they spend a lot of their free time, such as during intersystem travel, shooting, editing, and re-distributing propaganda vids. Remember, when you're conquering the Universe with limited resources, be sure to bring a good PR team.

Souleater
26-02-2008, 14:11
Reports from those worlds invaded by the Orks have returned with worrying reports of much larger ground based Tyranid organisms than seen before.

Basically the Nids seem to have harvested Ork DNA, stripped out the most useful bits of it and used it to enhance their own warmachine.

The Imperium has bought itself some time but at the cost of a much greater threat in the meantime.

If the Imperium could just whack everything with biological weapons wouldn't they have done so with most of their other opponents?

jfrazell
26-02-2008, 14:26
Baltar's going to quote you into oblivion if he ever arrives here. ;)



Ar. The man speaketh truth. 'Twas Tigurius, the blue-armored among blue armored megaSMurf shaman lord.

Quote all he wants-its suppositional theory. Unlike the AM probes sent out recording orkie signals from, well everywhere, its a theory that this is just the speartip of the Nids.

jfrazell
26-02-2008, 14:28
Actually, there are only about 3.2 billion Tyranids in all of space. The reason they get so much press about being the big bad to end all big bads is that fully fully half of those Tyranids are communications or marketing majors, and they spend a lot of their free time, such as during intersystem travel, shooting, editing, and re-distributing propaganda vids. Remember, when you're conquering the Universe with limited resources, be sure to bring a good PR team.

Quoted for the awesome power of truthiness. :D:D:D