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juample
22-02-2008, 18:45
When you charge a warmachine unit are you allowed to choose the charge direction?

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/2719/warmachinesbw6.png

In case positive. Can Chariots do the same?

Malorian
22-02-2008, 18:52
Against skirmishers, the skirmishers line up to you, but since warmachine crew line up infront of their machine this bypasses this and you match up depending on where you where in comparsion to the machine. So in your diagram you would hit the front since you start off in the front arc.

lparigi34
22-02-2008, 19:18
Against skirmishers, the skirmishers line up to you, but since warmachine crew line up in front of their machine this bypasses this and you match up depending on where you where in comparison to the machine. So in your diagram you would hit the front since you start off in the front arc.

So, if the machine was turned the previous turn to face (shoot) into another direction, then you may end up charging it in the flank? :D

EvC
22-02-2008, 19:28
Given that they line up to face you as in juample's diagram (a), it is impossible to hit warmachine crew in anything but their front (with a single charge).

juample
22-02-2008, 19:37
Given that they line up to face you as in juample's diagram (a), it is impossible to hit warmachine crew in anything but their front (with a single charge).

Yes, i am with you.

I doesnt think you can never get a flank charge against a warmachine still not in combat (like skirmishers), but you can to chose how to move the charging unit IMO.

So i can wheel and go forward (W+F) or can go forward, wheel and go forward (F+W+F); this way you are allowed to choose (mor or less depending on your movement) the overun/pursuit way (in yellow) to try to "pursuit into a fresh warmachine" :p

Don't you think?

Malorian
22-02-2008, 19:57
Well you wouldn't get a flank attack as far as '-1 CR for attacking on the flank' but you could still hit the 'side' of it so that you would overrun into the other warmachine.

EvC
22-02-2008, 20:01
Nah. The crew line up to face their enemy (good old centre to centre) as part of their charge response, so once they have done that, the chargers will head towards them and align in that way. Don't think of a warmachine as a model with a square base- ignore it as long as there are crew.

Ganymede
22-02-2008, 20:07
According to page 86, warmachine crew are positioned perpendicular to the charging unit as part of a charge reaction. Before the charging unit is even moved (and by definition, before any funky wheels on the charger's part), the position of the defending crew is locked into place. The charging unit will align to this perpendicular line created by the already-positioned crew.

juample
22-02-2008, 20:18
The charging unit will align to this perpendicular line created by the already-positioned crew.

But charger is still allowed to do tactical wheeling no?

And what about if 2 units charge at the same time?

Ganymede
22-02-2008, 20:31
But charger is still allowed to do tactical wheeling no?

And what about if 2 units charge at the same time?

You can still tactical wheel, but the advantages from it would be minor considering that in order to get the most number of models in contact, you'd often need to charge the crew dead on. Consider that charging a warmachine with an average infantry unit will necessitate linking up dead center in order to maximize units in combat. Even when charged by 5 wide cavalry, only a minimal amount of overhang will result from tactical wheeling.


If two units charge at the same time, the crew will line up against the first charger and the second charger will charge the quadrant the majority of their models are in.

juample
22-02-2008, 21:04
If two units charge at the same time, the crew will line up against the first charger and the second charger will charge the quadrant the majority of their models are in.

This way you can destroy the warmachine isn't?

Jonke
22-02-2008, 23:25
The warmachine will be destroyed if in the end of the any combat phase there are enemy units in combat with it and all crew has either fled or are dead.

As long as there are crew alive with the machine all combat is worked out against them. Enemy units charging must charge towards the crew, even if they're already in combat with another enemy.

sulla
23-02-2008, 03:20
You can still tactical wheel, but the advantages from it would be minor considering that in order to get the most number of models in contact, you'd often need to charge the crew dead on.

I don't think you can ever use tactical wheeling on a war machine.

This is because the crew align to face the chargers before the chargers move, unlike skirmishers who align to the facing of the charging unit when it contacts them. Chargers will always be in the front arc of the war machine crew because of this...

Ganymede
23-02-2008, 06:27
That's true, but you still can tactical wheel just a little bit in order to dictate which side your unit's frontage overhang goes. Though, like I said before, this is a dubious advantage considering most units will have to line up dead-on anyways.

EvC
23-02-2008, 08:14
Yeah, tactical wheeling works in that respect, but not in the "make skirmishers align to you" way :)

(I once saw a fella use tactical wheeling with his Hydra skirmirshers to charge one enemy cannon and overrun into the flank of another unit to strike again. Such naughtiness was rewarded by his High Sorceress miscasting and rolling double one!)

DeathlessDraich
23-02-2008, 11:56
A question I raised when 7th ed first appeared. :p


I don't think you can ever use tactical wheeling on a war machine.

It can be done if the chargers have sufficient movement.


This is because the crew align to face the chargers before the chargers move,

The word 'before' is not present in the rules.

The rule is "the crew are lined up in front of their warmachine perpendicular to the *direction of the charge*".

The *direction of the charge* can easily be modified by tactical wheeling which unfortunately has been accepted by the FAQ.


The arguments put forward against this (IIRC) is:

1) The warmachine has a frontal zone which is determined by the position the machine faces when it last shot - I find this unsupported by the rules.

2) Diag 84.1 shows the charge response -
It also shows the position *after* chargers have moved and so cannot be a diagram of the charge response.
Since the arrows are not sequentially labelled, there is no way of knowing which unit (cavalry charger or crew) has moved (or has to move) first.

lparigi34
23-02-2008, 12:59
I think no one got the ironic tone of my post... :cries:




So i can wheel and go forward (W+F) or can go forward, wheel and go forward (F+W+F); this way you are allowed to choose (mor or less depending on your movement) the overun/pursuit way (in yellow) to try to "pursuit into a fresh warmachine" :p

Don't you think?

I do!


Nah. The crew line up to face their enemy (good old centre to centre) as part of their charge response, so once they have done that, the chargers will head towards them and align in that way. Don't think of a warmachine as a model with a square base- ignore it as long as there are crew.

IMO what you say is not supported by the rules.


According to page 86, warmachine crew are positioned perpendicular to the charging unit as part of a charge reaction. Before the charging unit is even moved (and by definition, before any funky wheels on the charger's part), the position of the defending crew is locked into place. The charging unit will align to this perpendicular line created by the already-positioned crew.

What you say is not in the rules. Says perpendicular to the direction of the charge, which is also the direction of the chargers the moment they contact the unit. So as usual, IMHO this requires a FAQ.


But charger is still allowed to do tactical wheeling no?

And what about if 2 units charge at the same time?

IMHO, give it the same treatment as if they were skirmishers.


... If two units charge at the same time, the crew will line up against the first charger and the second charger will charge the quadrant the majority of their models are in.

So may this also mean that no model of the second unit may get in combat if the determined quadrant still is the front one and is already fully covered by the first unit? Is it like this also for skirmishers? (real question here)

Finally, the way the RAW IMHO DD got it right.

EvC
23-02-2008, 21:07
I would need to check my rulebook, but I think you might be right that it does not specify a "when". However in a vague situation I like playing it whatever way is best for the game, and when you put crew out front as part of the charge reaction, it means that sometimes there can be a reason to flee with them (to deny the extra 20mm or so that you'll be closer to your enemy)! An FAQ would probably be best...

sulla
23-02-2008, 23:20
The word 'before' is not present in the rules.

The rule is "the crew are lined up in front of their warmachine perpendicular to the *direction of the charge*".

The *direction of the charge* can easily be modified by tactical wheeling which unfortunately has been accepted by the FAQ.




In the case of war machines, wouldn't this mean that their charge response was occurring after the charge was completed? That would be fairly unique.

Ganymede
24-02-2008, 05:24
Exactly, these guys are moved during the Declare Chargers phase. The chargers themselves will not be moved (hence, can't do any tactical movement before this point) until the Move Chargers phase.

Festus
24-02-2008, 09:19
According to page 86, warmachine crew are positioned perpendicular to the charging unit as part of a charge reaction. Before the charging unit is even moved (and by definition, before any funky wheels on the charger's part), the position of the defending crew is locked into place. The charging unit will align to this perpendicular line created by the already-positioned crew.
Incorrect.

The use of tactical wheeling with warmachines is even greater.

The crew is not lined up perpendicular to the chargers (which would be nonsense anyway, as this would present just one model of the crew to the chargers :eyebrows: ) nor are they deployed parallel to the chargers (slightly more logical depending on the starting position of the chargers).

The crew is lined up perpendicular to the *direction of the charge*, and this is only determined when the chargers actually charge.

In effect, the charger can choose the angle at which he is to contact the WM or crew and the crew has to respond to that, defending their machine.

Festus

edit: Nice to see that I agree with DDraich for a change ;)

Ganymede
24-02-2008, 16:06
The crew is lined up perpendicular to the *direction of the charge*, and this is only determined when the chargers actually charge.


Considering that the crew are moved and lined up well before the point when the chargers actually charge, there is absolutely no way this interpretation can be right.

We don't know where to line up the crew until after the chargers charge, but we have to line up the crew before the chargers charge. This paradoxical situation pretty much assures that it isn't the correct way to play.


The crew is not lined up perpendicular to the chargers

I was being overly colloquial when I said chargers instead of charge path. Totally my B.

juample
25-02-2008, 14:16
Well, thanx all. I think i'll keep playing that way. (Moving first the chargers and then the crew.

I think it is the more playable way.