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Splata
22-02-2008, 01:29
Split off from the Dark Eldar Green thread here (http://warseer.com/forums/40k-news-rumour-discussion/128422-first-dark-eldar-pics-gd-spain-7.html#post2376633)


If they weren't so slaneshi i'd be tempted to get some of the new demonettes for my wyches, bit of a pity about the scales and the giant claw hands. For the record, while I do know that i could convert them out it would also be conceivably a lot of work.

I have to admit, the Incubi are an odd combination of the two aspects of the eldar.
On one hand they are of Dark eldar origin in the sense that they don't carry soulstones and as a result will have to have souls to offer up instead of their own so that their soul doesn't get sucked slowly out of them.
But on the other hand they keep to an aspect style living using the watchfulness of the bodygaurd as a way to avert their minds and subdue thier haedonism.
This feels to me as almost a repentance move, almost as if they don't want to be part of the dark eldar soceity but the craft worlders won't have them back so they must stay in the webway to stay alive. As a result seperating themselves from the soceity that they are ashamed of while making themselves useful to this same soceity in order to grant them survival from the haedoists.

Am I kind of on the right track do you guys think?

IncubiLord
22-02-2008, 06:10
Incubi ... don't carry soulstones
Are you sure?
Incubi are only interested in martial prowess - that's pretty much what being on a Warrior Path is. If the Incubi have a Path, they have CWE-level resistance to the Thirst. If Incubi don't suffer the Thirst, why wouldn't they wear soulstones?

Plus, why do the Incubi minis have all those little gems on their armor...?

But on the other hand they keep to an aspect style living using the watchfulness of the bodygaurd as a way to avert their minds and subdue thier haedonism.
Yep, the Incubi are pretty much on the Path of the Bodyguard.

This feels to me as almost a repentance move, almost as if they don't want to be part of the dark eldar soceity but the craft worlders won't have them back so they must stay in the webway to stay alive. As a result seperating themselves from the soceity that they are ashamed of while making themselves useful to this same soceity in order to grant them survival from the haedoists.

Am I kind of on the right track do you guys think?
Hedonism is overindulgence, and Eldar can enjoy anything taken to an extreme. It's not hard to allow for the Incubi to be a warrior subculture amongst the DE that actually want to be strictly warriors.

There's all sorts of fun when your body starts reacting to a real threat, and some humans get very fond of this altered physical state. It's quite possible that Incubi enjoy the zen-feeling of silent meditation and the adrenaline of personal combat (not to mention the entire Khaine-takes-over thing that is hinted at in the CWE stuff - if Eldar really do get a bump from Khaine when they give themselves to combat, that could be highly addictive). This doesn't make it not a Path, only an enjoyable one for certain mindsets.

Considering the strongly-hinted-at connection between the Incubi and Arhra (who essentially gave CWE society the finger in the most dramatic way he could think up at the time) I don't think the Incubi want to "go back" to the CWE.

The Incubi don't seem to have "typical" interests for a Dark Eldar, but I don't think that they're meant to be heroes seeking redemption amongst villains.

Souleater
22-02-2008, 06:18
Ugh...did somebody use 'repentence' in conjunction with Dark Eldar...feeling illl...

The stones on the incubi armour could be soulstones captured from Aspect Warriors. Why take heads when you can display souls?

Splata
23-02-2008, 15:54
yes guys those sentiments were said a few pages back.


See i thought the incubi had soulstones and was going to reply as such to the previous poster before me. But before laying accusations i went online (at work) to find images of said soulstones. Of which there were none. Now being corrected on that myself i'm happy to agree they have soulstones.

With the inclusion of soulstones they really have become aspect warriors in my eyes.
You do raise an interesting point and perhaps i was taking my theory too far. Perhaps less repentance more we want to do our own thing, no being bossed around by she who thirsts, a kabal or a craftword. But then perhaps once agina i'm takin it too far, your explanation incbuilord is much simpler and simple is normally more correct...
OR... perhaps Incbui are CWE that have come to Cormoragh to experiment but don't want to get too sucked into soceity so they take up a path to stay protected from it. No... logistics just don't work.

I feel it is the SpiritStone that keeps the soul from being sucked out, not the path (otherwise known as the Thirst). The path is so that the CWE don't go back to their hedonistic ways. So they keep occupied with more worldly activities.

MrBigMr
23-02-2008, 16:22
As I believe someone already pointed out, I think the soulstones could be simply trophies. If the DE already steal CWE wraithbone and other stuff, I don't see why they wouldn't fight them too and sacrifice their brethren. Gathered soulstones might not have the same effect to the natives as skulls, but CWE know what they mean and surely are more horrified by them than by skulls.

I'm modelling my Chaos army veterans with soulstones and containers holding them, as they hunt the Eldar and gather their stones to store and torture them.


Being entry level sculpts never stopped GW from releasing models before.
Wasn't that female commissar merely something the sculptor did to show GW his skills and in the end it got put out. It doesn't matter if it's your first or if you've been in the business for 20 years. A good sculpt is a good sculpt.

IncubiLord
23-02-2008, 17:43
I feel it is the SpiritStone that keeps the soul from being sucked out, not the path (otherwise known as the Thirst). The path is so that the CWE don't go back to their hedonistic ways. So they keep occupied with more worldly activities.
The 3ed Eldar codex disagrees with you.
Introspections upon Perfection, found near the end of the book, spells out that it is the Path which prevents the CWE from suffering the Thirst.

As I believe someone already pointed out, I think the soulstones could be simply trophies. If the DE already steal CWE wraithbone and other stuff, I don't see why they wouldn't fight them too and sacrifice their brethren. Gathered soulstones might not have the same effect to the natives as skulls, but CWE know what they mean and surely are more horrified by them than by skulls.
Undamaged soulstones aren't really as disturbing as broken ones, and multiple occupied soulstones within a suit of armor become like a little Infinity Circuit (at least, they do for the armor worn by Phoenix Lords and Exarchs).

I don't think the Incubi would really seem horrifying for essentially bringing well-treated prisoners onto the battlefield with them. If anything, the CWE would be thankful that their enemies are foolish enough to give them an opportunity to rescue their fallen comrades every time they met.

MrBigMr
23-02-2008, 17:58
I don't think the Incubi would really seem horrifying for essentially bringing well-treated prisoners onto the battlefield with them. If anything, the CWE would be thankful that their enemies are foolish enough to give them an opportunity to rescue their fallen comrades every time they met.
It could also be used to trap them.
"Hey, that dude has some stone on him. Lets get him."
*DE bounce the CWE*
"Oh noes, it's a trap!"

Charax
23-02-2008, 19:13
Given what the Dark Eldar do to captured Eldar souls, I don't think seeing your enemy's elite warriors studded with soulstones is any comfort at all

If anything, it's almost a guarantee that their souls have been devoured and that the soulstones are empty

I hope these sculpts do get released, even if it's just to show DE players that GW do still give a damn (as Brim's incessant but unhelpful hinting implies)

Hokiecow
23-02-2008, 19:21
Why is it so hard to believe that some DE would use soul stones? After all, CWE and DE come from the same roots.

IncubiLord
23-02-2008, 19:29
If anything, it's almost a guarantee that their souls have been devoured and that the soulstones are empty
Then those soulstones would be meaningless.

Either it's full and there's a (maybe tortured - the Incubi don't seem interested in torture, though - their only apparent interest is martial prowess, remember?) Eldar soul there to rescue, it's empty and that means the Incubi are actually trying to use it, or it's empty and there's about as much significance to it as pirates showing up with life preservers slung over their shoulders - yeah, you know that the bad guys kill people, but it doesn't exactly instill terror to see the bad guys collecting survival gear.

Sure, it could be a trap. However, CWE Seers are supposed to be able to predict such things with annoying accuracy.


@Hokiecow:
I claim that the Incubi and the Mandrakes both wear soulstones. Though the Mandrake models don't confirm the latter, these two subcultures are really the evil reflections of the Path and the Exodite way.

I've no clue why some people have such trouble with it. We normally all agree that a unifier amongst the DE is the desire to cheat the Great Enemy, and soulstones combined with a Path/Exodite lifestyle are one way to do just that.

Charax
23-02-2008, 19:33
Why don't DE use Craftworlds? After all, CWE and DE come from the same roots

because it's in their background. CWE have soulstones as a gift from Isha to help them evade their fate. Dark Eldar don't run from their fate like that - when a Dark Eldar dies, other Dark Eldar will eat his soul, so that he will help them to survive longer. The Dark Eldar have stoically refused to alter their pre-Fall lifestyle to the extent of the CWE.

That's kind of the point of the Dark Eldar - if they used Soulstones, they wouldn't need to eat souls to survive, so they wouldn't need to take slaves, so the accumulation of slaves wouldn't equal power, so the entire Dark Eldar society would be pointless.

Hokiecow
23-02-2008, 19:48
DE do sort of have a craft world but it's in the warp. :-p

MrBigMr
23-02-2008, 19:53
Sure, it could be a trap. However, CWE Seers are supposed to be able to predict such things with annoying accuracy.
Yeah well, if that was true the Eldar would rule over all. Sure, Farseers see things like all psychers, even more accurately than many others, but they're not all knowing. If they were, they would know all the moves their enemies make and there would be no way of fighting them.

Expecially when fighting Chaos, the Dark Gods surely can manipulate the very Warp the Farseers need, clouding their visions and all.

t-tauri
23-02-2008, 20:12
Discussion moved from News and rumours thread on Dark Eldar Greens.

Ashnari Doomsong
23-02-2008, 22:17
...well, per fluff, Eldar are pretty much impossible to fight. It's how they've survived.

MrBigMr
23-02-2008, 22:39
...well, per fluff, Eldar are pretty much impossible to fight. It's how they've survived.
And yet the fluff is full on cases where some faction has attacked the Eldar. I'm not saying the Eldar aren't good at avoiding battle, but there are limits to it. Sooner or later they'll encounter something that'll take them on. And the Eldar attack too, so that's one way to get into battle with them.

Ashnari Doomsong
23-02-2008, 23:02
Yep. But they still have a knack for avoiding traps.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Eldar are unbeatable. I'm simply saying that they are very good at picking their battles, and that they aren't the types to be caught unawares.

MrBigMr
23-02-2008, 23:17
Yep. But they still have a knack for avoiding traps.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Eldar are unbeatable. I'm simply saying that they are very good at picking their battles, and that they aren't the types to be caught unawares.
Takes one to know one. Surely the DE are more capable of taking on their kin than some silly monkeigh. Besides, if one has studied Eldar tactics long enough and has the support of daemons and sorcerers on his/her side to not only show the future but also to cast a shadow on their lord's/lady's intentions, it should give some upper hand over the less refined tactics of throwing everything at the Eldar.

Ashnari Doomsong
24-02-2008, 12:50
Well, that's the thing - Dark Eldar have no psykers, and the Farseers are generally competent enough to sense that something is *amiss*, at least, and that they should be careful. It's not infallible, of course, but nothing related to Chaos is.

Champsguy
24-02-2008, 16:53
The Dark Eldar have stoically refused to alter their pre-Fall lifestyle to the extent of the CWE.


There's absolutely nothing stoic about the Dark Eldar. At all. Calling Dark Eldar "stoic" is like calling President Bush "a blinged-out OG gangsta".

IncubiLord
24-02-2008, 17:03
Why don't DE use Craftworlds? After all, CWE and DE come from the same roots
Craftworlds are Eldar long-range ships which have simply kept "growing" since the time of the Fall. They're massive ships of Eldar design, that's all.

The DE likely do have craftworlds, but those overgrown vessels are likely kept in pockets of the Webway where they can be used as the core of a Webway-city.

You don't see the DE using craftworlds because the DE travel the smaller paths of the Webway and therefore large, cumbersome vessels are not suited to their uses beyond a home (which is, coincidentally, all the CWE seem to really use them for, too). That home is in the Webway.


The Dark Eldar have stoically refused to alter their pre-Fall lifestyle to the extent of the CWE.
The Incubi seem to only be interested in martial prowess, and the Mandrakes are "beasts who crave flesh and blood and little else" - do these really sound like pre-Fall hedonist mindsets to you? They lack the drive to "taste every sensation" that's supposed to get the young CWE into trouble.

That's kind of the point of the Dark Eldar - if they used Soulstones, they wouldn't need to eat souls to survive, so they wouldn't need to take slaves, so the accumulation of slaves wouldn't equal power, so the entire Dark Eldar society would be pointless.
Soulstones have nothing to do with the Thirst.
Incubi and Mandrakes probably don't feel the Thirst anyways.
Incubi and Mandrakes are "outsiders" in DE culture, set apart by a very different mindset.
Saying DE society falls apart if not every Eldar suffers the Thirst in it is like saying the Earth's global economy would collapse if we didn't all use the same currency - somehow, we're all still alive.

DE do sort of have a craft world but it's in the warp. :-p
Webway. ;)

Expecially when fighting Chaos, the Dark Gods surely can manipulate the very Warp the Farseers need, clouding their visions and all.
Dark Eldar are not Chaos, and we also don't tolerate uber-psykers very well. There's no reason farseeing wouldn't reveal something as simple as "you're all gonna die in a DE ambush" to an Eldar seer.

I'm not saying it couldn't work, only that it would be pretty rare for the CWE to walk into a trap completely unaware of it.


Champsguy:
It all depends upon your perspective...

MrBigMr
24-02-2008, 17:38
Dark Eldar are not Chaos, and we also don't tolerate uber-psykers very well.
Did I say DE are Chaos? I said "Especially when fighting Chaos", meaning I've already left the DE behind me and moved on to other factions. Also, I wouldn't put it past Slaanesh to try and support the DE, even if they wouldn't want it. Chaos is known to use non-Chaos people to do their bidding, even if they don't want to.

And do you mean 'we' as in 'we the people' or 'we' as in 'I am a Dark Eldar, hear me roar'?


There's no reason farseeing wouldn't reveal something as simple as "you're all gonna die in a DE ambush" to an Eldar seer.
And when fearing an ambush, (s)he get eaten by a Kroot or something.


I'm not saying it couldn't work, only that it would be pretty rare for the CWE to walk into a trap completely unaware of it.
Well, yes, when led by a farseer. But I doubt they issue those for every fleet, ship, expidition, ranger unit, etc. And that's only the actual CWE forces. Then there's all the things such as Outcast, etc.

IncubiLord
25-02-2008, 06:30
Did I say DE are Chaos? I said "Especially when fighting Chaos", meaning I've already left the DE behind me and moved on to other factions.
Ah, especially when fighting Chaos, in a Dark Eldar thread, looked to me like you were talking about DE as Chaos. I do hope you can see how I'd reach that conclusion...

Also, I wouldn't put it past Slaanesh to try and support the DE, even if they wouldn't want it.
Fair enough, but I wouldn't count on that happening too oftern.

And do you mean 'we' as in 'we the people' or 'we' as in 'I am a Dark Eldar, hear me roar'?
Why would you hear a Dark Eldar roar?

No, that was more along the lines of "we, the people" for the faction I have played since they were added to the game.

However, I suppose it also carries the allusion to "I'm a Dark Eldar, does the knife in your back hurt yet?" :p

Well, yes, when led by a farseer. But I doubt they issue those for every fleet, ship, expidition, ranger unit, etc.
However, an entire expedition/scouting party being killed/taken by the DE is significant enough that the craftworld's Seers should see that coming before the party goes out...

Really, we could argue about the CWE farseeing ability all day and never get anywhere. Can't we just leave it at the fact that they're not easy to catch unawares?

And that's only the actual CWE forces. Then there's all the things such as Outcast, etc.
The other Eldar types (Outcasts and Exodites) are also largely undocumented. We really don't know what the Seer potential of an Exodite world is, or that of a pirate fleet.

MrBigMr
25-02-2008, 06:47
Fair enough, but I wouldn't count on that happening too oftern.
No, of course not. But taken the scale of the universe along with the timeline of few millenia, it's clear that it surely has happened many many times.


The other Eldar types (Outcasts and Exodites) are also largely undocumented. We really don't know what the Seer potential of an Exodite world is, or that of a pirate fleet.
Well, BFG gives some info on them.

wolfspider
25-02-2008, 18:41
I just know all this talk about DE makes me want to buy DE, and in the end thats all that counts. Now if GW would make my army then I will spend the money ! :D

Souleater
26-02-2008, 14:37
Undamaged soulstones aren't really as disturbing as broken ones...

I don't think the Incubi would really seem horrifying for essentially bringing well-treated prisoners onto the battlefield with them. If anything, the CWE would be thankful that their enemies are foolish enough to give them an opportunity to rescue their fallen comrades every time they met.

To your first point, as somebody already said...just because the stone isn't broken doesnt mean the soul inside is 'well treated'. We know that the Dark Eldar are capable of torturing the very soul of a creature.

If we're going to talk about people being dumb for having soulstones on the outside of their armour I really don't think the Craftworlders can start pointing and laughing at people....

Carrying the soulstones of vanquished and probabably agonised Aspect Warriors would be a big status symbol amongst the Incubi.

"Ha, I have the souls of five Aspect Warriors, you only have four!"

And it 'proves' that their way of fighting, their 'path', is better than that of the CWEs. And when fighting CWE possibly goads them into making errors.

IncubiLord
26-02-2008, 18:14
To your first point, as somebody already said...just because the stone isn't broken doesnt mean the soul inside is 'well treated'. We know that the Dark Eldar are capable of torturing the very soul of a creature.
Sure, we can torture souls. We have special gizmos to hold souls just so we can torture them more.

However, I've yet to see anything indicating that we torture souls inside soulstones. Soulstones are a very special rock that provides a "safe" haven for the Eldar inside it - until the stone is broken.

If we're going to talk about people being dumb for having soulstones on the outside of their armour I really don't think the Craftworlders can start pointing and laughing at people....
Fair enough.

Carrying the soulstones of vanquished and probabably agonised Aspect Warriors would be a big status symbol amongst the Incubi.

"Ha, I have the souls of five Aspect Warriors, you only have four!"
Unfortunately, it would mean almost nothing.
Since Incubi can take somebody's armor when they beat one another in a duel, the adornments attached to one's armor are no indicator of his/her personal prowess.

Sure, the armor might be prettier, but I don't see the Incubi as the sort to kill each other over who gets the extra (useless) bling.

And it 'proves' that their way of fighting, their 'path', is better than that of the CWEs.
It would only do so if the CWE were also taking trophies and therefore the two forces had some basis for comparison.

As far as anybody knows, the soulstones a DE owns could have come off a CWE child or merchant - there's no proof of pwnage there.

And when fighting CWE possibly goads them into making errors.
Possibly, but I don't think so.

CWE combatants already give themselves over to a Khaine-personality that they go to great lengths to develop, and the Khaine-persona seems like something of a controlled rage already.

The Scorpions (while fighting) hate you just for not being CWE - they don't really change their mind on this front depending on how you're dressed.

Souleater
28-02-2008, 09:50
That we have no evidence of 'stone torture' hardly rules out the possibility. If we can stuff a soul in a box and give it to any Syb to use, I suggest we're fairly advanced with the whole soul manipulation thing. Hence, we might be able to torture them before they go in the box, but after they are torn from the body.

It's also rather a challenge (and amusing) for the Haemies.

"Oh, did you think you were safe in your little lifeboat? HAHAHA"

I hardly think that just rolling up to the Incubi Frat House with some shiny new stones is going to carry any weight, either. You would have be to *seen* to strike the killing blow against a particulary worthy foe and wrench it from their body.

I don't think that the Incubi would keep the stones when they inherit the armour. (Putting aside the odd notion of what they do with all those suits. Give them to students? Local boot fair?) I had imagined them being cracked and devoured as part of a celebration, ceremony or the like.

The two forces don't have to be competeing with their trophies for it to be psychologically effective. If an Exarch comes faces to face with an Incubi and sees Soulstones on his hat then he knows they are from a 'good' CWE warrior of some description that this guy has killed one or more such people, thus proving him a fearsome opponent.

I agree that the whole Khaine rage thing is a dominant character trait when fighting, but rage and anger can be hard to keep in check. Even a tiny reaction could be enough to give the Incubi an opening. I'm not suggesting that a well-trained CWE is going to throw caution to the wind and charge in like a frothing maniac.

Besides which, I think it is the kind of thing a DE might do just to raise the tiniest hackle in their 'uptight cousins'.

It is a bit odd that the Incubi would have SS while eg Wyches (also a martial cult) don't.

Would it allow Incubi to insure that their souls are devoured only by their own kind i.e. other Incubi(or stored in their training halls?) Possibly it is part of their contract - nobody else will be allowed to harvest their souls.

I was also wondering if the stones could simply be something to do with the Shooty Hat's control or energy storage functions.

I can't check my minis atm but do any other DE figures have them?

I don't think the 'stones' on the incubi figure were ever intended to be anything more than some kind of 'CWEesque' link between the two sculpting lines. We know that Incubi are the closest thing to a CWE aspect; it is possible that the sculptor was given a brief to make this a bit more obvious and so included a couple of extra 'CWE' elements into the figure.

I really think you are trying a bit too hard to make your beloved Incubi out to be a bit more special than they already are :D

Ashnari Doomsong
28-02-2008, 18:52
Given that a soul doesn't have any nerves, you would need to be a pskyer to do it. If you're a psyker or daemon, sure.

IncubiLord
29-02-2008, 05:02
That we have no evidence of 'stone torture' hardly rules out the possibility. If we can stuff a soul in a box and give it to any Syb to use, I suggest we're fairly advanced with the whole soul manipulation thing. Hence, we might be able to torture them before they go in the box, but after they are torn from the body.

It's also rather a challenge (and amusing) for the Haemies.

"Oh, did you think you were safe in your little lifeboat? HAHAHA"
So, let me present the situation to you:
* Haemonculus Usuffa has an occupied soulstone.
* Usuffa has a box specially designed for catching and torturing souls.
* Usuffa likes to skin Astartes and keep them alive, so he's got things to do.
* Usuffa is going to devote an indefinite amount of his time to figuring out how exactly he can torture the soul in the soulstone when he could crack it like an egg and drop the soul into the torture-box-of-doom?

I don't think so. There's Space Marines to play mad doctor with.

I hardly think that just rolling up to the Incubi Frat House with some shiny new stones is going to carry any weight, either. You would have be to *seen* to strike the killing blow against a particulary worthy foe and wrench it from their body.

I don't think that the Incubi would keep the stones when they inherit the armour. (Putting aside the odd notion of what they do with all those suits. Give them to students? Local boot fair?) I had imagined them being cracked and devoured as part of a celebration, ceremony or the like.
Now (after a few successful challenges) you've got a bunch of Tormentor Helms sitting around with empty mountings for (rather large) soulstones. That doesn't seem likely.

The two forces don't have to be competeing with their trophies for it to be psychologically effective. If an Exarch comes faces to face with an Incubi and sees Soulstones on his hat then he knows they are from a 'good' CWE warrior of some description that this guy has killed one or more such people, thus proving him a fearsome opponent.
You mean, like the native Americans were seen as fearsome opponents for having a lot of scalps even though they were known to scalp women and children?
Wait, those scalps didn't mean much of anything to the people fighting them...

I agree that the whole Khaine rage thing is a dominant character trait when fighting, but rage and anger can be hard to keep in check. Even a tiny reaction could be enough to give the Incubi an opening.
But why would it cause any reaction at all?
The CWE see DE and instantly settle into a "kill the vampire" mentality. Seeing evidence that the DE are "vampires" wouldn't affect them.

Besides which, I think it is the kind of thing a DE might do just to raise the tiniest hackle in their 'uptight cousins'.
That, at least, I might agree with.
I could see the DE committing all sorts of cultural offenses just to goad their CWE kin.

It is a bit odd that the Incubi would have SS while eg Wyches (also a martial cult) don't.
Yeah, you'd think that, if the soulstones were worn to goad the enemy and possibly create an opening, the other heavily-combat-oriented DE subculture would have them, too...

Would it allow Incubi to insure that their souls are devoured only by their own kind i.e. other Incubi(or stored in their training halls?) Possibly it is part of their contract - nobody else will be allowed to harvest their souls.
I don't know, and none of us really can at this point.

Maybe it's just to ensure that the Incubi don't get lost to the Warp.

Maybe Incubi armor is all like early Exarch armor, and those stones are there to create permanent pools of warrior-energy within each suit of Incubi armor.

Maybe each Incubi Warrior's soul ultimately goes to the Dark Father, and they're trying to make one heck of an uber-Eldar.

Maybe it's just to maintain an air of mystery and the Incubi just eat each others' souls within their temples.

I was also wondering if the stones could simply be something to do with the Shooty Hat's control or energy storage functions.

I can't check my minis atm but do any other DE figures have them?
DE guns do tend to have an odd protrusion or two, but these don't tend to look stone-like or be symmetrically placed. GW also doesn't paint them as anything other than another portion of the gun.

You'll have to decide for yourself whether you think these qualify as the same thing. Personally, I don't see why a Tormentor Helm would have 4-5 stones when a Splinter Pistol has 0-1 (depending on whose you look at) - unless they're not the same thing.


I don't think the 'stones' on the incubi figure were ever intended to be anything more than some kind of 'CWEesque' link between the two sculpting lines
I don't see a reason GW would let a DE model with soulstones be sculpted, produced, and officially painted as such if they didn't want Incubi to have soulstones.

I really think you are trying a bit too hard to make your beloved Incubi out to be a bit more special than they already are :D
Bah, you should hear my theories on Mandrakes! :p

Seriously, though, the fact that the models have them is only further evidence that soulstones could be there when you consider the heavily-Path-like Incubi culture as we know it.

It's when you start looking closely at things like the Incubi (and seeing how strongly it's hinted that they're a Path by their own right - even with their own Phoenix Lord) that you start to see the DE as something more than S&M Vampire Pirate Elves in Space.

I've discussed the various DE subsects with other players for quite some time. In case you hadn't guessed, I am quite fond of them... ;)

Souleater
29-02-2008, 12:13
The twisted artist that is the Haemonculus doesn't bother torturing psykers - the most interesting playthings par excellence for the Dark Eldar - he just shoves them in a box and goes back to torturing SM?

You speak at the end of your post of DE being more than a stereotype but then stereotype Haemies into only being interested in torturing and experimenting on SM's bodies. If torturing a soul is boring after he's done it the first time, why is torturing a SM any more interesting the second time around?
If anybody is going to enjoy torturing souls and ripping them out and stuffing them into boxes…it is going to be the Haemoncului.

With regard to Incubi inheriting armour: I imagine that one would remove the SS from captured armour and devour them. If one then wants to wear said armour one would re-mount the SS captured by oneself from one's original suit.

We don't really know what Incubi do with their 'captured' suits. My suggestion is that they keep the best ones and maybe gives those they don’t' want back to the Temple or to their own students. Maybe they keep every suit they have ever won in a wardrobe somewhere.

Your comment on NA scalping is off base. I'm suggesting that the Incubi are known for taking only the SS of worthy adversaries (in keeping with their 'honourable' tradition), not women and children. I thought I’d made that clear. An Aspect Warrior seeing such stones would know that Incubi only value the SStone's of a worthy opponent, and knows to respect them (or despise them).

It could also be that the Incubi use the stones as one (amongst many) measures of prowess. After all, fighting on an open battlefield is very different to fighting in the Temple. Even if both fights are to the death.

It is one thing to hear that vampires exist, another to confront one face to face. To cross blades with a man who is wearing a twisted version of your own armour, upon which glitter the captured souls of warriors such as yourself, who studies the way of a Fallen Phoenix Lord. He's flaunting them at you. If you can kill him you can rescue them and save the souls of several fellow Aspect Warriors from an eternity of torment or utter oblivion at the next Temple Meeting.

I'd be eager to kill him and rescue my comrades in arms, I'd be 'ticked off' and sure I'd like to fall back on my training and keep myself in check. But it would elicit an emotional response in me, even if that is to mentally ‘harden my heart’. And we know that Aspect Warriors get angry when fighting the Dark Eldar.

Page 33 Codex: Dark Eldar describes the feelings that the Dark Eldar provoke in their kin. The Exarch feels his 'anger rising'. The Archon feels 'surging waves of their anger and bitter hatred...'

It is pretty specific that is the CWEs hatred of the DE and their ways and not simply the spirit of Khaine within them.

I'm trying to explain multiple stones because they don't appear on CWE armour. Craftworlders have one SS and multiple decorative gems (farseers may have gems for other purposes but they are psykers) All the SS on the CWE models are big, single, colourful gemstones fastened to the chest area with a metallic surround.

The objects you refer to on the Incubi armour are smaller, multiple, metallic, in a totally different area of the armour and have no surround.

So it puzzles me as to how you get them as officially 'sculpted & painted' as SS by GW when the similarities are outweigh by the differences.

Yeah, they can just be 'different because they are Dark Eldar tech'. But given what we have at the moment it isn't sufficient evidence for you to prove that they are. And since you are the one asserting that Incubi alone seem to be in possession of SS, you have to bring the evidence to table.

Wyches not having SS. They aren’t Dark Aspect Warriors to the same extent that Incubi are. Maybe they like to goad their Cousins by being all semi-naked and sensuous….or they just don’t see or take seriously the (Dark) Aspect thing and just enjoy chopping Aspect Warriors up.

What has being on a Path got to do with an SS anyway. Paths stop you falling to She Who Thirsts. SS keep your soul from going to her if you die. If you have fallen to She Who Thirsts you might well rip your own SS from your body and cast it aside.

Why doesn’t being on the Path of Torture require an SS? Or the Path of the Wyche? If you are going to introduce SS to the DE you need to justify the Incubi’s unique need and/or use of them.

At the moment the Incubi seem to be apeing the ways of the CWE (even if they started it, which seems very, very odd given their background link to the Fallen One), rather than acting like the rest of Dark City society (which makes them different, of course.) Are they a Chaos Cult in some way?

We also need to explain why other DE don’t wear SS. I recall previous discussions that having your soul eaten by fellow DE is the ‘least awful thing that can happen to your soul’ so why doesn’t every DE carry one? At best he doesn’t get endlessly tormented by She Who Thirsts, at worst his Archon may be able to recover his SS and devour it once the battle is over.

Now recovering SS is fine if you won and have time to stop and shop, but the Incubi would have the exact same problem if this isn’t the case. If you can’t control the battlefield long enough to grab the SS from your fallen comrades (and you may not have the time to do it in the heat of battle) then you are going to have to come back for them or abandon them to an unknown fate.

(Which brings up another interesting thread topic: what happens to the souls of DE killed on the battlefield? Do the DE are fighting alongside hoover their souls up at the time? After the battle? Laugh at their kin’s misfortune? Actually the latter would be pretty dumb as you are seeing a valuable resource go to waste but there are more slaves I guess.)

IncubiLord
29-02-2008, 18:52
The twisted artist that is the Haemonculus doesn't bother torturing psykers - the most interesting playthings par excellence for the Dark Eldar - he just shoves them in a box and goes back to torturing SM?

You speak at the end of your post of DE being more than a stereotype but then stereotype Haemies into only being interested in torturing and experimenting on SM's bodies. If torturing a soul is boring after he's done it the first time, why is torturing a SM any more interesting the second time around?
I think you misunderstood my intention there:

It's not that torturing the soul is boring, it's that taking the time to adapt all of the proper soul-torturing implements to use on a different medium (a soulstone) would be a waste of time when you can simply transfer the soul into a container with which you're already skilled in working.

Imagine how disappointing it would be to hook up the Soul Shocker 9000 to a soulstone and only deliver mild discomfort. It's time to crack that egg and show the smug craftworlder some real pain - oh, and in the time I saved I can ALSO go see if an Astartes can survive this new torture I thought up...

With regard to Incubi inheriting armour: I imagine that one would remove the SS from captured armour and devour them. If one then wants to wear said armour one would re-mount the SS captured by oneself from one's original suit.
I would imagine that you do indeed move a personal soulstone from one suit to the next. However, when I mentioned empty settings, I was speaking of the trophies which you suggested are destroyed when the armor is taken - if I beat somebody who had five trophies and I've only earned three so far, my armor has two gaping holes.

Not to mention that changing the armor removes some of the nameless, faceless air of mystery which I presume the "silent" Incubi would maintain.

We don't really know what Incubi do with their 'captured' suits. My suggestion is that they keep the best ones and maybe gives those they donít want back to the Temple or to their own students.
I'd agree with that.
In some cases, it might be that the loser of a duel actually survives and gets the worse suit of armor, too...

Your comment on NA scalping is off base. I'm suggesting that the Incubi are known for taking only the SS of worthy adversaries (in keeping with their 'honourable' tradition), not women and children. I thought Iíd made that clear. An Aspect Warrior seeing such stones would know that Incubi only value the SStone's of a worthy opponent, and knows to respect them (or despise them).
What, the Incubi send out a regular memo?
"On February 23, we killed 4 Howling Banshees, 2 Striking Scorpions, and a Farseer. Then we added their soulstones to our armor. Spin on it, craftworlders!"

Sure, the Incubi might only take trophies from worthy foes which they killed personally, but there's no reason the CWE would actually know this.

It could also be that the Incubi use the stones as one (amongst many) measures of prowess.
Sure.
Trophies as an inner-organizational status-symbol make sense (except for the "taking another guy's armor" thing we're also discussing).


It is one thing to hear that vampires exist, another to confront one face to face.
But there's no shock-value to the soulstones.
It's not like you're walking along with what you think are three humans and one of them suddenly turns out to be a vampire - these "vampires" are easily identified whether they wear trophies or not.

I'd be eager to kill him and rescue my comrades in arms, I'd be 'ticked off'
Again, it's not like you wouldn't want to kill him and protect your comrades in armes or be ticked off that he's there trying to eat more of your kin already.

And we know that Aspect Warriors get angry when fighting the Dark Eldar.
-Which is the reason making CWE angry is an exercise in futility.

"The grass is green - let's paint it green!"
"That bear wants to maul me - maybe I should poke it with a stick?"

It is pretty specific that is the CWEs hatred of the DE and their ways and not simply the spirit of Khaine within them.
You say potayto, I say potahto.

"Burning hatred" and "waves of anger and hatred" both sound like something you'd try to feel if you were emulating the Bloody-Handed God to me. In the same vein, I think that whatever the CWE Aspect Warrior sees would be then attached to the worst images possible.

Humans evoke thoughts of ruined Maiden Worlds, men destroying soulstones, and in general the humans being a racial enemy that must be killed. Tyranids evoke the shattered landscape of Iyanden, a sister craftworld shredded by these foul beasts. It doesn't matter what the enemy is, the Apsect Warrior finds a reason to hate it because it makes killing simpler.

I'm trying to explain multiple stones because they don't appear on CWE armour. Craftworlders have one SS and multiple decorative gems (farseers may have gems for other purposes but they are psykers) All the SS on the CWE models are big, single, colourful gemstones fastened to the chest area with a metallic surround.
Exarchs and Phoenix Lords seem to have more than one of the gems you're picking out as soulstones, and Banshee/Scorpion soulstones don't look particularly large...

The objects you refer to on the Incubi armour are smaller, multiple, metallic, in a totally different area of the armour and have no surround.
Smaller? It doesn't seem like they're smaller than all the samples available.
Multiple? See Exarchs and Phoenix Lords.
Metalic? Only in some color schemes, and Maugan Ra seems to have a silver soulstone.
Different location with no surround? Look at the Exarchs on page 80 of the CWE codex.

So it puzzles me as to how you get them as officially 'sculpted & painted' as SS by GW when the similarities are outweigh by the differences.
They have a helmet adorned with appropriate gemstones and are painted in a manner which draws the eye to those gemstones in GW's color-schemes.
Games Workshop Online Store — Dark Eldar Incubi Set 2 (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99060112046&orignav=10)
- And the rest of the army, though some have a few bumps on their armor, are painted so as to make any similar structures obscured.

Yeah, they can just be 'different because they are Dark Eldar tech'. But given what we have at the moment it isn't sufficient evidence for you to prove that they are.
Actually, I'm only presenting the models as further support for the conclusion that Incubi could, and likely do, use soulstones.

I also claim that Mandrakes probably use soulstones, but those aren't modelled on the outside of their armor, and that's taking the argument away from what we've focused on thus far.

I don't need to prove the gems on a Tormentor Helm are soulstones, I'm only pointing out that they could be so. You've yet to show a reason they couldn't be, too.

Wyches not having SS. They arenít Dark Aspect Warriors to the same extent that Incubi are.
Exactly.

What has being on a Path got to do with an SS anyway.
The Path (or Exodite way) enables the soulstone to be useful.
If you suffer from the Thirst, having an artificial body after your physical form is destroyed probably doesn't remove the Great Enemy's grasp on your soul. So you go into a rock and are then slowly killed anyways - what's gained?

Paths stop you falling to She Who Thirsts. SS keep your soul from going to her if you die. If you have fallen to She Who Thirsts you might well rip your own SS from your body and cast it aside.
Quite right.
Of course, the Incubi, having a Path, haven't fallen to She Who Thirsts.
(The Mandrakes, essentially being evil Exodites, probably haven't either, but again, tangent discussion.)

Why doesnít being on the Path of Torture require an SS? Or the Path of the Wych? If you are going to introduce SS to the DE you need to justify the Incubiís unique need and/or use of them.
Nothing requires a soulstone, Paths and Exodite lifestyles only make them viable.

Haemonculi and Wyches aren't portrayed as dedicated to one particular art in the extreme manner of the Incubi. They're really not on a Path of their own, they're just DE with unusual interests.

Haemonculi, depending on your view of them, might actually be borderline to being a Path. They might also be humans. They might not suffer the Thirst (it's hard to understand why they don't eat their own art if they suffer the Thirst), and might be capable of wearing a soulstone - but all of that is up in the air.

At the moment the Incubi seem to be apeing the ways of the CWE (even if they started it, which seems very, very odd given their background link to the Fallen One), rather than acting like the rest of Dark City society (which makes them different, of course.)
Yes...

Are they a Chaos Cult in some way?
:wtf:
I'm going to assume this was simply to be argumentative.

We also need to explain why other DE donít wear SS.
...
at worst his Archon may be able to recover his SS and devour it once the battle is over.
Correction:
At worst, his soulstone is recovered and there's no reason not to trap his soul in a torture-box for a few centuries to distill its agony to indulge a Lord's refined sense of taste.

what happens to the souls of DE killed on the battlefield?
The only sensible explanation seems to be that they're eaten on the run...

Souleater
01-03-2008, 08:16
First you had the Haemae dropping the SS in a box and letting it auto torture, now you are saying it is a device that needs skill to operate. I see Haemoncului as artists, you clearly see them as tradesmen. I see them as wanting to experiment in all mediums of pain. You describe them as if they were glorified lab techs.

These guys have had hundreds of years to set their labs up with all their gizmos. They aren’t going to be wasting much time setting them up (or getting their assistants to do it, ready for the Master to do the actual art). And it isn’t exactly as if they feel the hot breath of human mortality on their necks.

Incubi Armour: Holes can be filled with other stones, filled with plug-in inserts, etc.

Changing the armour lets the Incubi tell each other apart. There are subtle differences in the armour of some Incubi models (some even have cloaks). However, an incubi models remains obviously an Incubi.

“What, the Incubi send out a regular memo?”

Not a regular one, no. Carved into the chest of a CWE they have captured and sent back home, quite possibly. Escaped prisoners can babble frightening tales of the horrors of the Dark City and the dreaded Incubi. Or the CWE could observe the practise on the battlefield while being forced to flee like whipped dogs. Or ‘Hey, you Scorpions, watch this I’m going to kill your Exarch and stick his SS on my Shooty Hat!’ In 10,000 years word will have gotten around.

“But there's no shock-value to the soulstones.”

I contend that there is. These aren’t dead things that were once living like scalps or skulls. They are still alive in a very real way. They contain a living soul that can still be lost to Her or devoured…and this Incubi is flaunting it in my face! A monk-keigh might be so insensitive as to be unaffected by the sight, but I’m talking about the more passionate, more intelligent Eldar.

The point is to make the Aspect warriors too angry. A good portion of anger is damn handy in a fight. Too much of it, let your passions run away from you and you start making mistakes. Bear’s, to my knowledge, don’t use a formal fighting stance so making them angrier won’ help. On the other hand a CWE could be provoked into attacking too heavily which leaves him open to counter attack.

Getting Angry: That story doesn’t mention Khaine’s spririt rising within the Aspect Warriors at all. It clearly describes an Exarch (not just some PBI CWE) rationally thinking about who and what the DE are and getting angrier that he was when he was a moment ago in the midst of pitch battle against them.

He has already fought them, his dander is up, he isn’t described as fatigued or wounded. He has no need whatsoever to make himself angrier. As you said, why paint the grass greener? He isn’t as in control of his emotions as he should be at that point.

I agree that hating the enemy makes it easier to kill them but trying to deny the particular hatred shown between these two forces is laughable.

“Exarchs and Phoenix Lords seem to have more than one of the gems you're picking out as soulstones” …because their armour contains more souls.

Most other Eldar models have the one gem, in a surround on their chest area. That’s the SS.

Some models have smaller sized stones that others, granted. But you still need to explain why an Incubi needs multiple SS when other CWE warrior manage fine with only one. In fact most fiction I’ve read on Eldar speaks of a single SS.

Maugan Ra’s old paintscheme had that as a coloured gem. Different people paint them as different things.

The bumps on the Tormentor helm are painted to pick them out and add interest to the model. Similar bumps appear all over CWE models. You are taking an attempt by a sculptor to link DE and CWE models and blowing it out of all proportion.

And I don’t think they are meant to be gemstones, despite people painting them as such. There is a lot of fine detail work on the Incubi models but they don’t have a gem stone’s surround – they are simply bumps that get painted because those bumps look better that way. Doing so adds an ornate look to the ‘elite’ bodyguards of the DE Lord. Other, less flashy troops don’t normally get that treatment.

Okay, neither of us can prove whether they are SS or not. But surely, given that there is no mention of DE using SS themselves, and that the majority of the DE figures don’t sport gems that could even be SS you must see that the onus is on you to come up with a damned convincing argument as to why Incubi (and Mandrakes, apparently) chose to use them?

I mean, let’s face it, dumping your cool refreshing soul into a handy snack-sized container isn’t the first thing I’d think of surrounded by a city of Thirsting Ones.

Your contention is that Incubi don’t suffer the thirst. That’s removing one of the defining characteristics of a Dark Eldar. They already lack the S&M look, aren’t space pirates, etc. Start painting them as CWE aspect warriors, why don’t you.

That the Incubi are very devoted to their lifestyle is obvious, but so are Wyches and Haemonculi. So they shouldn’t suffer from the thirst either. The list of Dark Eldar that suffer is dropping steadily. You know, I think you’ve solved the whole Thirst problem! All we need to do is make everybody really dedicated to doing their jobs – just like the CWE – and we wont’ have a problem! Cool…I wonder when Codex: Evil Craftworld Eldar is going to be out?

What do you gain by using a SS as a DE? From your description the best thing you gain is a small amount of time. A very poor strategy from an intelligent and long-lived race. They need a permanent home for their SS, or let them get devoured.

Of course you could just pile them up out back and hope it doesn’t attract the attention of warp entities, thieves, Mandrakes, etc.

I don’t think the Incubi are on a Path, per se. They just happen to have particular interests like some other Commoroghans. Sure it is structured but that doesn’t automatically make it a path.

Plus, the Paths help CWE resist their passions and the lure of She Who Thirsts. As far as we know they don’t suffer the Thirst as acutely, which is the problem the Dark Eldar have. Given the Thirst's effect on \de we would need to explain why they dont use paths.

It isn’t that hard to understand why the Haemonculi don’t eat their own art. They have more than enough slaves to snack on. They may, of course, chose to devour some souls on the point of death. But they aren’t base animals that simply gorge themselves at every opportunity. They are thinking sentient beings.

I’m not simply being argumentative when I ask if the Incubi are some form of Chaos cult. Jeez, they are following tenants and cultish practises laid down by the Fallen Phoenix, you know the guy…burns with the Dark Light of Chaos. They are highly secretive and sinister even amongst Comm’s populace. If you are going to point at their bumps and yell ‘OMG those are SS!’ you have to have the intellectual curiosity to wonder just what the extent of the Fallen Phoenix’s other influences…

I’d start with the best grapes possible if I wanted to make fine wine, not any old pickings left on the battlefield. Lords might ingest large quantities of slaves for bulk but they aren’t going to settle for anything less than the best when seeking to induldge their palate.

So the worst thing that can happen to a warrior isn’t being shoved in a box, tortured a bit and then being destroyed. The worst thing is still being eaten by She Who Thirsts and suffering an eternity of torment. You seem to have forgotten that in your admiration for the CWE’s ways (eyes IncubiLord even more susciously and strokes hilt of agoniser)

I agree that without SS one has to ‘eat on the run’ during a battle…but that same argument can be applied to the Incubi. They always fight in a tight-knit group nd who would dare anger the Incubi by devouring one of their souls? A quick inhale and the Incubi Master has kept a soul ‘safe’.

And we still need to explain why Joe Eldar on the Path of the Warrior doesn’t have a SS. Dark Eldar Warriors are…well, trained Warriors…they aren’t the militia plebs of a CWE Guardian squad. If they can’t manage a simple Path, it is a poor look-out.

And I’m still not even sure why you have to be on a Path to have a SS? Having a SS and being on a Path are two different things. The former is a lifeboat, the latter a protection against Seductive Corruption. It would be pretty dumb to save yourself from Her during your life but not worry about your immortal soul.

Also, you assume that DE can actually use SS. We don’t know if the thing that caused the Thirst (or the constant nagging of the Thirst itself) prevents DE from using the paths or SS.

* shrug * you don’t want DE to ‘simply’ be Evil Space Elf Vampir Space Pirates in Bondge Gear…I don’t want them to simply be ‘Dark Craftworlders’.

Edit: Forget all that for a moment. We can argue this kinda stuff back and forth for months. My problem with giving Incubi Paths and SS is that we are taking them from being shadowy precursors of the Aspects into fully fledged Aspect Warriors. Fluffwise, we can pretty much dump them into either Dex.

All we need is to have a Temple of Khaine hidden in their training halls and we're pretty much done.