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Dogskills
03-10-2005, 22:10
I have a question about Vampirecounts and armies that does not feel the effects of fear. There are so many arm around nowadays that cause or is immune to fear, and being a very dedicating player I do not want a army that does not work against Chaos (Nurgle, Slaanesh) Slayers, Lizards (special spawning that makes whole army immune to fear), Daemons. I would be happy for any response and a little info on your experience on the matter.

Regards

metro_gnome
03-10-2005, 23:28
stirogi flying circus... stirgoi and anything that flies or skirmishes...
get there quickly and make them dead...

Dogskills
03-10-2005, 23:32
ok.. but if you prefer to play carstein?

made_of_metal
03-10-2005, 23:58
Not that many armies are immune to fear. It is a minority. And with the power that fear has use it as a weapon, a very good weapon. The only thing is just have a plan that can work without relying on fear just in case but that is what you heavy hitting units are for. Most armies have some units that are immune to fear so this will not be a big change in your plans.

And a few of those armies aren't intirely immune to fear. That lizardman army is rare, as it costs alot of points to do. The chaos will only have the marked units being immune to fear. It is really only deamons, ogres, slayers and other undead that totally negate fear.

Dogskills
04-10-2005, 11:59
Well in my opinion that is a couple of armies to many, and my problem is that my main opponents play Nurgle and Lizzies with just that mark if he knows that he will be facing me that is, and that is often the way it is cause we play mini tournaments like that. So what I really need is some advice..

Neknoh
04-10-2005, 12:09
Hehe, do you know how many points a unit of Nurgle Chaos Wariors costs?

Or how much he pays for his entire Lizzie army to be immune to fear?

For those points, buy some more units and swarm him, sure, Skellies are only marginally better than Gobblins, but so what? They can be raised in new ammounts, they can make extra attacks, etc. etc. How do you think a gobblin army fairs against such armies?

The same, drown him in endless floods of critters.

Play an Army of Sylvania and in 2k, bring a Lord, 2 Thralls and 3 Grave Markers, just make sure you tell him beforehand that you will not bring any Necromancers because you want to try out this new tactic of only using Vampires and mention NOTHING about the Grave Markers, they will catch him off guard with only a few DD and DS to block the Vampire Lord.

Dogskills
04-10-2005, 13:15
Yes I know the costs I own the books, and I can say that it is well worth it when fighting vamps.. And Neknoh your id might work once but not twice.. And by the way a victoria by sneaky tricks that does not involve tabletop tactics är inte riktigt min grej..

Gorbad Ironclaw
04-10-2005, 13:26
Well, it is possible to build a VC army so it doesn't depend on fear to auto-break people. Take a few vampire thralls, ghouls or anything else thats a bit hitty and just win combat the old-fashioned way and break them.

Remember, being ItP also means you can't flee. So that can be quite nice, and nurgle chaos warriors. Well they cost an arm and a leg already!

Neknoh
04-10-2005, 13:46
Oh, so you are swedish Dogskills, always nice to see more swedes arround.

And, as for being sneaky isn't really your thing, try it once, then, he won't be able to plan his army arround your's in the future due to the fact that he will have to take into account that you may field a Sylvanian OR a normal VC list.

And, as has been said, win combat the usual way, a Thrall or two, a Count or Lord and some hitty units, remember, no matter how nifty those Nurgle Wariors or Immune to Psych Sauruses are, there will ALWAYS be more zombies than them and you will have a 5+ Static Combat Resolution with both Skellies and Zombies allike, throw in a Thrall and the killing will be done as well.

Remember, the Nurgle Player cannot mark his Marauders, meaning, if he want numbers, he will either go for cheap, autobreakable Marauders or, he will lay down HUGE ammounts of points in one or two units of Nurgle Wariors, smash their flanks and voila.

metro_gnome
04-10-2005, 14:17
well if you are really determined to try to win without fear... and use Von Carstien...
try making a were wolf list... use the same elements as the stirogi flying circus...
but replace the ghouls with dire wolves... and bat form with wolf form...
i dunno never tried it... but its worth a shot...

DeathMasterSnikch
04-10-2005, 15:38
Swamp him. You siad Neknohs plan would work once and not twice. Swamping enemies has been the key factor in my skaven wins in amost every game i play. Swamping the enemy will almost always work. It isn't like theres a magic trick to doing it and it isnt sneaky to swamp, undead are almost as good as greenskins and skaven at outnumbering if played by somone who knows how.

Dogskills
04-10-2005, 16:42
Swamp him. You siad Neknohs plan would work once and not twice. Swamping enemies has been the key factor in my skaven wins in amost every game i play. Swamping the enemy will almost always work. It isn't like theres a magic trick to doing it and it isnt sneaky to swamp, undead are almost as good as greenskins and skaven at outnumbering if played by somone who knows how.

You are absolutely right, but I meant that the surprise of wich army I would use would only work once, and that also want I meant about being sneaky. I dont mind being sneaky in a battle its the sneaky "you dont know wich army I will use" sneakiness that I dont like.

Hywel
04-10-2005, 17:02
You beat them the same way armies that don't cause fear defeat their opponents.

Hard hitters, rank bonuses, flank and rear charges. Just because fear causing is a primary weapon of the undead, it is not the only one so include units that can resort to more 'mundane' methods of dispatching the enemy.

Dogskills
04-10-2005, 17:25
I understand that there is no miracle cure against immune to fear armies and that vampires can win without the fearfactor. This is just something that I have been thinking about lateley and needed ventilated, thank you guyes feels much better now.

DeathMasterSnikch
04-10-2005, 17:36
OoooO sorry about the misunderstanding there ^.^

Anyway yeh, He is not just limiting what you can do by making imune to fear units, the points cost takes a toll on his army. He is in a way stoping one weakness but creating another. Just play in a normal style but less reliant on fear

g0ddy
04-10-2005, 18:28
Well in my opinion that is a couple of armies to many, and my problem is that my main opponents play Nurgle and Lizzies with just that mark if he knows that he will be facing me that is, and that is often the way it is cause we play mini tournaments like that. So what I really need is some advice..

You should be aware that lizardmen - saurus more specifically when they have a single blessed spawning (such as the one that makes them immune to psychology - not its not just immune to fear, it hampers a lot of other things such as the ability to flee from your charge) with 1 blessed spawning they become a SPECIAL unit, with 2 blessed spawnings they become a RARE unit all this in addition to the points increase for such spawnings. This isnt really something you can change at a moments notice when you know who your upagainst - unless of course this lizardmen player doesnt use any... terradons, kroxigors, salamanders etc...

Saurus Warriors and Saurus Heros are for the most part the only ones who can take these spawnings so you cant have an entire army of the stuff - while yes, kroxigors, salamanders and steggies are fear(terror) causing themselves so negate it as normal.

Anyways my point is, there are some serious disadvantages hes weathering in order to make those few units of saurus immune to the effects of your fear.

You might be better off as stating the army is Immune to Psychology, as that is much different that simply being immune to fear, there are certain short comings that come in hand with being immune to psych. - short comings which you can easily exploit.

- g0ddy

Dogskills
04-10-2005, 21:25
True true... Psychology it is I see your point g0ddy.

Tormentor of Slaanesh
04-10-2005, 21:38
keep your rank bonus high and just make sure you win in combat normally. even winning by 2 often breaks units.
unbreakable people can't be renewed, you can.

DeathMasterSnikch
05-10-2005, 15:48
Just noticed something. He could create a much more effective army that was immune to fear. Not psychology but fear. By fielding Kroq-gar saurus cold one riders become core. They cause fear. I doubt he would think of this but i'm sure it would be more effective in some cases than sacred spawnings. Just a thaugt on another strategy...

Dogskills
05-10-2005, 18:21
keep your rank bonus high and just make sure you win in combat normally. even winning by 2 often breaks units.
unbreakable people can't be renewed, you can.

Winning by two does not break lizzies my friend.

Hywel
05-10-2005, 19:40
As Von Carstein is your chosen power, have you tried a unit of dire wolves including a thrall with great weapon, wolf form and the flayed hauberk?

Due to fast cavalry ability they can easily thread through the enemy battle line and turn to come at their rear - with the extra radius of influence a Carstein count can muster they can go round the sides too. Doesn't matter if the enemy are immune to fear or not when that hits them in the rear and a block of zombies/skeletons hits the front.

Such a unit is vulnerable to skinks against the lizardmen but you have access to ethereal troops which can tie them down. A banshee can be particularly good at engaging skirmishers provided she's near the BSB so as to avoid losing wounds from outnumbering. Or even chase them off with a wraith, as its my understanding skinks can't become immune to psychology.

Are Nurgle's fear causing warrior blocks enough of a threat to bother with the Hell Banner? Slaaneshi warriors would still be unphased but nurgle would run off as easily as anyone else. Furthermore, lizardmen cold ones and a host of fear-causing chaos units would no longer be impervious to your psychology (or at least that of one unit). I'm not convinced by this solution but its some food for thought...

Angelripper
05-10-2005, 20:30
You should be aware that lizardmen - saurus more specifically when they have a single blessed spawning (such as the one that makes them immune to psychology - not its not just immune to fear, it hampers a lot of other things such as the ability to flee from your charge) with 1 blessed spawning they become a SPECIAL unit, with 2 blessed spawnings they become a RARE unit all this in addition to the points increase for such spawnings. This isnt really something you can change at a moments notice when you know who your upagainst - unless of course this lizardmen player doesnt use any... terradons, kroxigors, salamanders etc...
- g0ddy

Only if he uses the Armybook list. The german WD had an article about the blessed armies of blablabla. Every Unit of Saurus and Skinks must take the mark an still counts as core. I think that this list is not Germany only so it's possible that an all ItP lizziearmie might appear on the Battlefield.

But that wouldn't worry me much. After All I play Lizzys quite regularly and face Ogre, Vamps and Chaos. The ItP Lizzylist is nice but expensive. With 3d6 for leadership tests the lizzys are always annoying. :evilgrin:

I wolud counter that force as said above with sheer mass and flanking forces. Kill the enemys rankbonus and half way is done. Put a hard hitting Hero into the fight and lizzys will run as fast as any other race.

In my Fantasy group we got players with multiple armies so I never know what army I face and with the SOC Army lists out there noone really can. After we began to play without telling the opponent what army he is facing until we put our minis on the table, the games are more fun.

Dogskills:
There is nothing sneaky about you if you don't tell which list you field
Just don't let anyone get you down with the infantile "I did'nt know what I was facing so I'ts not fair" crap.
If someone do complain just tell him

A: Don't complain, there are enough lists out there, so do it yourself (esspecially the lizzys) :evilgrin:

or

B: If you can't take the heat, don't play with fire! (only if he is really annoying) :skull:

or

C: here take a beer the next round is on me (do that anyway) ;)

DeathMasterSnikch
06-10-2005, 00:58
The army spawning thingy is fetured on the warhammer website on the lizardmen section. Just remembered that...

Yeh not much to add taht hasnt been said but i thaugt id mention that the list isnt just from WD etc etc

Dogskills
06-10-2005, 03:18
Thats the list I was refering to..

DeathMasterSnikch
06-10-2005, 15:42
Ah well you should have made it more clear. It does limit him to the lore of metal. Kind of a disadvantage IMO. Might be able to use that to your advantage.

Stil it costs more points anyway. It says all units must take that spawning. Not that its free, it costs 15 points for skinks ( and they have to take it)

So just be reasured that you will outnumber him.

Dogskills
09-10-2005, 10:51
Ah well you should have made it more clear. It does limit him to the lore of metal. Kind of a disadvantage IMO. Might be able to use that to your advantage.

Stil it costs more points anyway. It says all units must take that spawning. Not that its free, it costs 15 points for skinks ( and they have to take it)

So just be reasured that you will outnumber him.

Of course I will outnumber him a Carstein army will allways outnumber Lizzys, if not you are doing somtrhing wrong.