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DeathlessDraich
25-02-2008, 12:32
The situation:
Army 1 with units A and B with character F in a multiple unit combat with army 2 with units P and Q with character X. (C)s are champions of army 1 while (c)s are champions of army 2.

PPPPP.........XQBBBB
PPPPcAA....AQQBBBB
PPPPPFAAACcQCBBB
PPPPP.........QQBBB
PPPPP.........QQ

(A) is flank charged on both sides while Q is rear charged.
(X) issues a challenge.

Q1: Army (1) refuses the challenge. (F) is retired and replaces the A model between the red and magenta A. (P) strikes first and slays magenta (A).
(Q) inflicts 2 wounds on unit (A). Red (A) is slain. No wounds can be inflicted on (F) but can (X) fight?

I think not but would like to hear any opinions on this.

Q2: (C) from unit (B) accepts X's challenge and is slain by (X). Red (A) EDIT and another (A) is also slain in the combat. i.e. only magenta A is left in the back rank.
Is (X) in base contact with the enemy and can later issue further challenges or is he disengaged?

Rules:
"retire one character nominated by his opponent among those that could have accepted"
"If ... there are no positions ... where the character can avoid being in base contact, the challenge cannot be refused"

Rules on moving challengers:
pg 77 "moved in the ranks"
"FAQ - imagine they are in base contact" but do not move them

Which do you think applies in this situation?
Thank you.

Milgram
25-02-2008, 12:48
Q1 I would say yes as we determine who is able to fight at the beginning of a b2b combat phase. but this is the way we play it. I would however not let X strike against F.

Q2 X is still in base contact if Red (A) dies. the last rank counts as full if it comes to flank or rear charge and who is able to fight. anyway: unless you play a kingthly lance, the models in the last rank have to be placed in the center - only esthetical aspects, this is not affecting any rules.

DeathlessDraich
25-02-2008, 12:57
Sorry edited Q2

Atrahasis
25-02-2008, 13:14
1. No, as he is not in contact with an enemy he can fight when it is his turn to strike.

2. Yes, as he has been moved to replace the "Q" behind "c". The FAQ you (mis)quote only applies where it is impossible to move the fighters into base contact with each other.

Milgram
25-02-2008, 14:54
1. as long as at least one model in the back rank remains in unit A, the rank counts as full for btb purposes. the models are not moved to the flank as in your diagram but remain in the middle of the unit.

2. atrahsis, afaik the characters in a challenge are not moved (unless they retreat), I think you remember something from 6th edition, right?

Atrahasis
25-02-2008, 14:58
1. as long as at least one model in the back rank remains in unit A, the rank counts as full for btb purposes. the models are not moved to the flank as in your diagram but remain in the middle of the unit.

The only model in the rear rank is the character who refused the challenge, who cannot participate in any way.


2. atrahsis, afaik the characters in a challenge are not moved (unless they retreat), I think you remember something from 6th edition, right?

I suggest you read "Fighting a Challenge" on page 77.

Milgram
25-02-2008, 15:50
The only model in the rear rank is the character who refused the challenge, who cannot participate in any way.

uhm... the magenta A was never replaced by a character and even less in Q2 ;)

I'll read page 77 at home, thanks for that one. but how do you handle 'impossible challenges' if characters have to be moved?

AAAAABBCBB
DDCDEEEE

the champions could issue a challenge by the rules but could never be moved in direct contact without leaving their respective units...

Atrahasis
25-02-2008, 16:03
uhm... the magenta A was never replaced by a character and even less in Q2 ;)No, but both the "A"s were killed in Q1, leaving only the character in the rear rank.



but how do you handle 'impossible challenges' if characters have to be moved?

AAAAABBCBB
DDCDEEEE

the champions could issue a challenge by the rules but could never be moved in direct contact without leaving their respective units...

In that situation we "abstract" and pretend that they are in base contact without moving them.

juample
25-02-2008, 16:33
Q1: Army (1) refuses the challenge. (F) is retired and replaces the A model between the red and magenta A. (P) strikes first and slays magenta (A).
(Q) inflicts 2 wounds on unit (A). Red (A) is slain. No wounds can be inflicted on (F) but can (X) fight?

I think not but would like to hear any opinions on this.

NOTEQ1 :
- : When (F) is retired for refuse the challenge, there are more positions he could be moved to.
- P doest strike first(unless they have Strike first) as long as you stated P and Q both charged. (so both attack at the same time, ok you can resolve it at once). Then If unit Q charged X character too, so they strike at the same time.

Q1 ANSWER:

X and Q unit charge, so they strike at the same time, so he can attack, as long as when is his chance to attack there are enemies to do. In a imaginary situation that X strikes after (magic item or a spell efect...) i think he can't becose when is his time to fight there are no enemies in base contact. In his next movement phase he could be moved to a position he is allowed to fight again.




Q2: (C) from unit (B) accepts X's challenge and is slain by (X). Red (A) EDIT and another (A) is also slain in the combat. i.e. only magenta A is left in the back rank.
Is (X) in base contact with the enemy and can later issue further challenges or is he disengaged?

Q2 ANSWER:
NOTE: Altought a character has not enemies in B2B contact if his unit is engaged he is engaged, but he is not in base contact.

-When (C) from unit B accepts the (X) challenge , (X) has to be moved in the combat phase to the rear rank to resolve the challenge (As long as X can't be moved to be in contact with. So Yes, X is in base contact with B unit (he is in the unit B rear rank, he doesn't goes back to the first rank when challenge ends, he can move back do if B breaks, in his next movement phase.

If you want to know what to do in this situation:

PPPPP
PPXPP
A
A
CA
A
A
QQYQQ
QQQQQ

Both X and Y characters/champions can challenge as long as A counts as being in contact with X and with Y at the same time.



Rules:
"FAQ - imagine they are in base contact" but do not move them
Which do you think applies in this situation?
This rule only applies if characters can be fisically move. (It is hard for me imagine such that case but I guess big-base-sized-monsters-mounted-characters that can't be moved fisically when a challege is issued, and it needs too other units, or impassable terrain...)

juample
25-02-2008, 16:37
but how do you handle 'impossible challenges' if characters have to be moved?

AAAAABBCBB
DDCDEEEE

the champions could issue a challenge by the rules but could never be moved in direct contact without leaving their respective units...


OOOPS a good example Dude! xD

juample
25-02-2008, 16:44
O
OXXXXC
O

Another situation.


O charges in the flank X and kill 4X. Now is time to C to attack.

Is He allowed to attack?

He is in base contact and is his time to attack.


I am posting this question also here...
http://warseer.com/forums/fantasy-rules/127293-flank-kills-4.html

Atrahasis
25-02-2008, 16:50
He isn't in base contact, he's here:

O
O____C
O

Until it is time to redress ranks.