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View Full Version : 3000pt Tourny List - Need Advice



Shaman
25-02-2008, 13:51
Updated, I have taken into account people's suggestions, what are your thoughts now? I think I should be strong in magic, some hard hitters and some good foot troops.

Hero
Prince – Star Dragon, Dragon Armor, Lance, Bow of the Seafarer, Enchanted Shield, Guardian Phoenix
Archmage – Lvl 4,2x Dispel Scrolls, Silver Wand, Folariath’s Robe
Mage – Lvl 2, Jewel of the Dusk, Sacred Incense
Noble – BSB, Great Weapon, Armor of Caledor, Amulet of Light

Core
19 Spearmen – Muso, Standard
10 Archers
10 Archers

Special
14 Swordmasters – Full Command, Banner of Sorcery
5 Dragon Princes – muso, standard, banner of ellyrion
5 Dragon Princes - muso
14 White Lions – Full Command
5 Shadow Warriors

Rare
2x Great Eagles
2x Bolt Throwers

Comes in at 2994

ga1661
25-02-2008, 15:21
A few thoughts... the concept isn't bad at all, I like the idea you're attempting. However, I think you're going to be disappointed with how the list actually plays as currently written.

1) Lv 4 with Book + Lv 2 + Banner of Sorcery is equivalent to playing 2 Lv 2's and the Banner in a 2k game... and as well documented as it is, people who try to take a middle of the road approach to magic get flattened. You don't have enough here to overwhelm people who take the equivalent of the defensive minimum (Bretonnians with a pair of scroll caddy Damsels, Empire with a pair of Priests, anybody with a scroll caddy or two, etc.), and you don't have enough to protect yourself from the superior casting armies (Tzeentch Flying Circus, 2nd Gen. Slann, Teclis + second Lv 4 with Book, etc.). In the current system, magic really is an all-or-nothing proposition: take enough to flatten people, or take just enough to protect yourself for two or three turns until you get all your units engaged in CC and protected.

2) You have a Prince on a Dragon and a BSB on foot, and you haven't taken advantage of the best magic armor available to non-cavalry models in the entire army. Armor of Caledor is a simple must-use if you have characters which aren't riding horses. On a related point, while we're talking about your Prince, the Star Lance is a waste of points unless you are absolutely certain you are playing against "the chariot list of doom" or multiples of the War Altar/Black Coach. Use a regular lance and save yourself a bunch of points, as well as opening up the possibilities for other magic items. There are no CC magic weapons in the HE arsenal worth taking over a mundane lance (for mounted characters) or a mundane great weapon (for men on foot), unless you know what army you're facing and can tool up accordingly (you won't in a tourney obviously), with the possible exception of Sword of Might if you feel really compelled to use HW + Shield.

3) As much as I hate Seaguard, I can see their use. But those units are really really small. You need to get them to 18 each so you can line up in 6x3, or 21 to have options for 7x3 or 5x4. If you can get them up to 21, they are going to be good enough that you should spend the points to get them unit standards, and this might even be true @ 18, but I'm not sure. Maybe downgrade one unit to 21x Spearmen or 12x Archers, and up the model count on the other two?

4) I like the rest of the list a lot, except for the fact that Tiranoc Chariots are really really overrated, as are their more expensive Lion-drawn counterparts. Not sure what I'd recommend you replace them with until you made up your mind on the above issues (how many points you have to work with would be a major factor), especially without knowing what models you'd have to work with, but I can tell you right now that the Tiranocs are going to be very disappointing.

Hope that some of this helps! Write back after you read this and hopefully a few more peoples' responses!

TheDrugLordX
25-02-2008, 15:38
just some thoughts:

1) If you want a prince on dragon, go all the way and take a star dragon. Yes, they are as powerful as they seem and he won't dissapoint you.

2) Like ga1661 said; star lance is overcosted. You would be much better of with a simple lance. This will save you some points, otherwise your prince is fine.

3) I have never liked book of hoeth, and thinks that it's greatly overpiced for what it does. It relies to much on luck to have any good effect and isn't very reliable. Seeing as you only have 5DD and 1 scroll in a 3k game, you would be better of with some additional scrolls and the silver wand just to get that game-breaking spell you soo much want to have. Folariath's robe is also a nice item to protect him against mage-hunters.

4) I must say, a very strange item combination on your BSB. Drop it all and give him Armour of Caledor and Great Weapon. Keep the amulet of light if you have points over to spend.

5) I strongly advise against lothern sea guard, and here's why:

compared to spearmen, you've paid 180pts extra for a bow on 45 models. Why not just invest in 2 extra RBT or Chariots and let ordinary spearmen do the fighting?

compared to archers, you've spent 135pts extra for spears and some armour, and downgraded from longbows to bows. Why not make 'em all archers and add another unit of dragon princes to take care of the armoured-assault units part?

Or, get a mixture of spearmen/archers instead of lothern sea guard and add whatever you want!

6) The rest of the list is fine, though I recommend a unit of white lions with the lion standard instead of swordmasters to protect your mage. With stubborn and immune to fear and terror they won't run if they loose to a ranked up unit. A gem of courage in that unit could save the day for only 10pts... and if you still want to keep the banner of sorcery, give it to a unit of dragon princes.

so, there you have it. Take it or leave it. Cheers.

Shaman
25-02-2008, 21:35
Thanks all for your advice, I will play with my list and see what I can come up with. I think the star lance was more about hitting other cav armies with the no armor save. I dropped the star dragon to moon dragon for the points. You do lose a st, ws, w and ld but you do gain an I. But I will play with the list and see what I can get.

WhiteKnight
26-02-2008, 00:52
I say make the swordmasters 12-14 because 13 means one lone wolf in the back. 6 swordmasters = 13 STR 5 attacks.

Shaman
26-02-2008, 01:56
Army updated at top. What do people think now?

Jack of Blades
26-02-2008, 02:11
What I think? that the Prince presumably has no lance and that it's pointless to get a Bow when you're not mounted on an Eagle.

ga1661
26-02-2008, 03:04
Not sure I agree with you about the BT-bow for the Prince, Jack of Blades. If he's intending to use the Dragon as a terror-causing, breath-flaming, march-blocking, flank attack / rank breaker who just runs around behind enemy lines causing havoc, the Bow of the Seafarer is a very effective tool. Particularly if you are trying to keep the opponent occupied until the rest of the your army can get across the board. That said, the lance is definitely necessary!

Just to confirm, Shaman, where your characters are going... do I understand the BSB to be joining the White Lions, the Level 2 with Sacred Incense joining the Swordmasters, and the Archmage joining the Spearmen? Assuming that's where they are all going, I can't see any major changes to the list that I'd recommend. Silver Helms suck compared to Dragon Princes though, and if you could somehow scrape together 45 points to change them into 5 Dragon Princes with a Musician, that would be a big improvement. I don't know where you are relative to the 3k point limit, as you haven't listed point costs for the unit, and I'm not really inclined to try to count it out by hand. Seems unlikely you'd have anywhere near that many spare though.

Shaman
26-02-2008, 05:35
Sorry, he does have a standard lance. Fixed. Will try for another five Dragon Princes.

Shaman
26-02-2008, 05:38
Ok, managed to make 2 units of DP's. The characters are as you have suggested, BSB in white lions, mage in Swordmasters and Archmage in Spearmen. How does it look now?

ga1661
26-02-2008, 06:47
I think that's about as good as it's going to get. I like the list, seems solid. Obviously my opinion isn't the only one that matters though, so I'd encourage you to seriously consider anyone else who posts. And more than anything else, play some games with it, see how you like it. A lot of times a list will look great on paper, and then you sit down and use it a few times and it just doesn't work right. Good luck!

TheDrugLordX
26-02-2008, 11:36
I really like the improvements you've done. Great job! However, I still have a few ideas that could help:angel: Though you don't have to use them if you don't want to of course, they're just my oppinions and your list should work fine as it is.

1) Talismann of Loec is great combat boost to your flying character if you would be forced to face tougher opponent. Could come in handy every once in a while, and it's only 10pts.

2) Spells hardly do much damage unless you've got the right spell that can do most damage to your opponent. If you only got say Fireball against dwarfs (bad example but you'll get the picture), he'll happily let it go through as it does minor damage to his units, saving dispell dice versus spells from your archmage. By giving your lvl 2 the Seer staff you get to choose those particularily nasty spells that have a great game impact (beast covers, pit of shades, unseen lurker, flames of pheonix etc...) which means your opponent will have another spell to worry for. Having an extra power dice doesn't help much unless you have a great spell to use it on. As this means you have 20pts of items left, you could give your mage another scroll, or a powerstone if you would prefer.

3) Give your white lions The Lion standard, to make them truly invincible! (or atleast they won't turn and run and fight to the last man regardless of opponent)

Cheers

Shaman
26-02-2008, 11:49
Thanks DrugLordX, I hadn't thought about the Seerstaff that way, I did originally have it, and realistically the extra dice you are right, is only useful for a good spell. I can get the Lion Standard but only by dropping the muso on the second DP's and I don't know if it's worth it.