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FigureFour
27-02-2008, 19:36
Ok, so I'm reading the new rulebook (haven't played Fantasy since about 3rd ed) and can't really see the use of champions. They usually cost as much as another model just for another attack.

The only use I can see for them is giving and accepting challenges, however they are way too puny to make this really worthwhile.

I could see the value in using a champion to protect a hero from enemy challenges, as a sort of sacrificial lamb but that seems like a really specific use for something that's supposed to be more general.

Anyway, I think it's pretty obvious that I'm missing something but for some reason I can't wrap my head around it. Anyone want to explain what I've got wrong?

athamas
27-02-2008, 19:41
they serve many uses...


champions often provide one of the following bonuses:
magic item allowance
higher Ld
more attacks
more Bs
a way to stop a character from killing your unit... or, snioing another vunerable character


usually they are costed appropriatly, and some offer some really nice benefits... [the ability to take magic weapons/items being one of the best]

FigureFour
27-02-2008, 19:58
Where does it say a champion can take magic items?
I know in 40k they are usually used to add wargear to a unit, but I've only seen one unit champion in Fantasy that can take magic items.

Nor have I seen one with a higher Ld.

I've seen one with a higher BS then the rest of his unit, but that doesn't seem as valuable as another model.

W0lf
27-02-2008, 20:01
magic items appears in dwarves, high elves and i believe dark elves book.

not sure where else if any?

they are worth it as often people kill your front rank but leave the champion alives allowing you to get some attacks back. Plus in a ranked unit an extra attack is better then an extra model as the front rank only gets to attack so its an attack that the extra model wouldnt have added to the front rank.

Malorian
27-02-2008, 20:02
High elve ones can take magical gear.

The better BS is more for critical units where you need to pack the most punch into a small area and another model isn't really functional.

FigureFour
27-02-2008, 21:36
they are worth it as often people kill your front rank but leave the champion alives allowing you to get some attacks back.
So wounds on the rest of the front rank don't carry over onto the champion?


Plus in a ranked unit an extra attack is better then an extra model as the front rank only gets to attack so its an attack that the extra model wouldnt have added to the front rank.

I suppose that makes sense. I'm still thinking like 40k about a lot of things.

Malorian
27-02-2008, 21:39
If the front rank has 5 models and the enemy kills 5 the champion can still fight back assuming he didn't need to be removed. By this I mean that if there were only 5 of them, and 5 were killed the champion is removed and doesn't fight back, but in a unit of 6 or more he would still fight back.

FigureFour
27-02-2008, 22:12
If the front rank has 5 models and the enemy kills 5 the champion can still fight back assuming he didn't need to be removed. By this I mean that if there were only 5 of them, and 5 were killed the champion is removed and doesn't fight back, but in a unit of 6 or more he would still fight back.

So basicly you're saying that usually your whole front rank doesn't get wiped?

Most of the information I'm going from here is theory, modeling (simularions, not sculpting) and mathhammer, so I'm sort of lacking in practical experience here.

Mostly I've been comparing things to Bretonnians (a friend of mine has an army, so if/when I make one, I'll probably face them a lot) and it seems like I can pretty much count on a unit champion being blown away from the first charge.

Are they more effective in certain units then others? For example, they're better in resilient units, or units that expect to get the charge?

Edit: Wow, that "thanks" message is pretty ugly. Hope they trim that down a bit.

the12thronin
27-02-2008, 22:17
magic items appears in dwarves, high elves and i believe dark elves book.

not sure where else if any?

they are worth it as often people kill your front rank but leave the champion alives allowing you to get some attacks back. Plus in a ranked unit an extra attack is better then an extra model as the front rank only gets to attack so its an attack that the extra model wouldnt have added to the front rank.

No Dwarf champions may take runic items. Some units can have runic banners but the champs are mundane only.


So basicly you're saying that usually your whole front rank doesn't get wiped?

Most of the information I'm going from here is theory, modeling (simularions, not sculpting) and mathhammer, so I'm sort of lacking in practical experience here.

Mostly I've been comparing things to Bretonnians (a friend of mine has an army, so if/when I make one, I'll probably face them a lot) and it seems like I can pretty much count on a unit champion being blown away from the first charge.



They still have to allocate attacks to the unit champ to kill him. That's probably two less attacks on your unit if they do that and are serious about killing him.

Khorneflakes
27-02-2008, 22:29
figurefour, beastmen champions have a higher Ld than the rest of the herd

FigureFour
27-02-2008, 22:57
They still have to allocate attacks to the unit champ to kill him. That's probably two less attacks on your unit if they do that and are serious about killing him.

If they HAVE to allocate attacks on him to wound him, it makes him WAY more valuable, but the rules look (to me) like they say you CAN allocate hits on him, but he's still a rank and file troop like everyone else. Is there a rule that says he isn't allocated wounds like the rest of the rank and file?

Slightly off topic, but I assume wounds don't spill over onto characters either, right?


figurefour, beastmen champions have a higher Ld than the rest of the herd

Ah. I haven't seen the Beastman Army Book yet, but maybe I should give it a look. I still do love Chaos, but I don't think the Hordes of Chaos book is exactly the army that I want.

Braad
28-02-2008, 06:45
If they HAVE to allocate attacks on him to wound him, it makes him WAY more valuable, but the rules look (to me) like they say you CAN allocate hits on him, but he's still a rank and file troop like everyone else. Is there a rule that says he isn't allocated wounds like the rest of the rank and file?

You can indeed allocate wounds on him, but you don't have to. But if you wan't to kill him, you need to do this, otherwise he will only die if he is the last trooper (or if the unit breaks and is ran down of course). But if you do allocate attacks on him, and you do more wounds than he has, then these carry over to normal troopers.
There is a section in the book that tells about champions, standards and musicians, I think you can find these rules there. Unsure about the page numbers though, I don't have my book at hand. I believe it is somewhere near the stuff that explains characters, skirmishers and those kind of things.

Nedar
28-02-2008, 06:54
In order to keep the champion from fighting back you have to wipe out the whole unit (I think standard is last to die, champ dies right before him). Or direct attacks to him like he is a character.

If you do not do the above, the champion can fight back no matter how many models you kill (that do not kill the unit to 1 model).

Windings of a snake
28-02-2008, 06:57
There is one thing people tend to forget about a champion. This is maye his best skill.

Accept or issue chalenges!

This keeps your unit from beeing ripped apart by dragons, bretonion one use wonders and other one use uberchars. in fact TK and new VC can get him back to fight another challenge in order for the unit to be unharmed again.

enyoss
28-02-2008, 07:50
I must agree about the importance of being able to issue and accept challenges.

For example, lets say your high Initiative unit (with Champion) is fighting an enemy unit with lower Initiative, but including a character. Normally your unit would strike first against the enemy unit, but in this case the enemy character is likely to have the highest Initiative. As such, it's quite likely that he'll slaughter all the fighting models in your unit before they get a chance to attack at all. You then have no way of doing damage on the enemy unit before it, attacking last, adds to the carnage. The disaster just snowballs.

However, challenging with your champion stops the character attacking the rest of the unit. This gives them their chance to attack the enemy unit first, not only increasing your combat resolution through wounds but denying it to the enemy unit by reducing his attacks back. Of course, your champion will probably be hacked to pieces, but better 4 wounds on him than 4 troopers dead before they can attack!

I'd always take a combat champion unless the upgrade cost more than a normal trooper, and I don't think such an upgrade exists!

Cheers,

enyoss

blurred
28-02-2008, 08:24
Also, orc bosses (champions) get +1 WS and +1 S in addition to the normal +1 A. Very useful when combined with the choppa rule. No one expects a humble unit champion to strike with S5. :)

Lucky24/7
28-02-2008, 09:03
its all very circumstantal but genrally they are good for unit that are no there to die for the greater good as the points could be spent better else where, but in units that you want somehitng good to come from them then its genrally worth the points. My rule of thumb At least.

Lucky

Braad
28-02-2008, 13:09
No one expects a humble unit champion to strike with S5. :)

Oh, come on. Nearly everyone knows it, so why wouldn't they expect it... But indeed, I always take champions and am glad to have these advantages, combined with opponents who always forget to target him :)
Also just for the reason that such a big group of warriors need someone to lead them (so: fluff).

W0lf
28-02-2008, 14:29
If you are 5 wide and the enemy kills 10 the champion still strikes back.

The champion is a character and has to be allocated hits against.

This tactic is most commonly used in a unit of dwarf slayers.

Take 12, 6 wide. Make 5 of them giant slayers. The enemy dosnt declare against them and kills like 4 troll slayers. The giant slayers then hit back. Oh and for this to work you need to have an empty slot in the front rank or all atatcks are directed at the giant slayers by default.

fubukii
28-02-2008, 14:38
Best way to learn why a champion is worth taking,

Have a high elf lord on star dragon charge your typical skaven clanrat block, issue challenge with unit champ, now instead of losing all those models and all that combat res, the most cr he can get is +6, meaning i can only lose by a maxium of 1 and i keep to keep all my ranks for a solid ld

Dragon Prince of Caledor
28-02-2008, 20:39
Say a fragile unit gets charged by a beastly thing and all you want to do is sit there and keep as many guys alive as possible while you prepare for a counter attack a champion can buy that for you. Star dragon with prince vs a champion. He can only get 5 overkill wounds i think it is. then your static combat res will keep you from running. (all the above is assuming a player throws their mounted lord into the front of your unit:)

FigureFour
28-02-2008, 20:59
You can indeed allocate wounds on him, but you don't have to. But if you wan't to kill him, you need to do this, otherwise he will only die if he is the last trooper (or if the unit breaks and is ran down of course). But if you do allocate attacks on him, and you do more wounds than he has, then these carry over to normal troopers.

Yeah, I re-read that section AGAIN (it's right where you said it was) and it looks like you're right about the first part anyway.

However I don't see any rule that says excess wounds on the champ carry over to the rest of the unit. Really that CAN'T be right, otherwise there's no reason NOT to throw all available attacks against him.


In order to keep the champion from fighting back you have to wipe out the whole unit (I think standard is last to die, champ dies right before him). Or direct attacks to him like he is a character.

If you do not do the above, the champion can fight back no matter how many models you kill (that do not kill the unit to 1 model).

I think this is right.


There is one thing people tend to forget about a champion. This is may be his best skill.

Accept or issue challenges!

This keeps your unit from being ripped apart by dragons, Bretonnion one use wonders and other one use uberchars. in fact TK and new VC can get him back to fight another challenge in order for the unit to be unharmed again.

I'm not sure this is as valuable as you say, since it's rare that the character is going to have more then 6 attacks, let alone more then 6 attacks that cause unsaved wounds. You might spare some models, but your combat resolution score is still going to be as bad.

I suppose every little bit helps though. (edit: I'm an idiot. Saving all the models will preserve your rank bonus and allow a properly configured unit to try and hold based on static resolution. Thanks for pointing that out Caledor. You'll probably still going to need a decent break test, but at least you'll have a chance.)


I must agree about the importance of being able to issue and accept challenges.

For example, lets say your high Initiative unit (with Champion) is fighting an enemy unit with lower Initiative, but including a character. Normally your unit would strike first against the enemy unit, but in this case the enemy character is likely to have the highest Initiative. As such, it's quite likely that he'll slaughter all the fighting models in your unit before they get a chance to attack at all. You then have no way of doing damage on the enemy unit before it, attacking last, adds to the carnage. The disaster just snowballs.

However, challenging with your champion stops the character attacking the rest of the unit. This gives them their chance to attack the enemy unit first, not only increasing your combat resolution through wounds but denying it to the enemy unit by reducing his attacks back. Of course, your champion will probably be hacked to pieces, but better 4 wounds on him than 4 troopers dead before they can attack!

This seems like a much more clear cut example of a useful time to use a champion to challenge a superior character.

Are there actually times when the challenge is going to screw you over more then it helps? Or is challenging a superior foe always a good idea? (edit: Obviously this is only useful with a unit that has a good rank bonus + banner + (hopefully) other combat resolution. Any other situations that make this tactic work particularly well or poorly?)

Anyway, I hope you people don't find my nitpicking and questions irritating or ungrateful (I feel sort of weird asking a question and then second guessing all your answers), all this has been really helpful and I appreciate it a lot.

enyoss
29-02-2008, 09:00
Say a fragile unit gets charged by a beastly thing and all you want to do is sit there and keep as many guys alive as possible while you prepare for a counter attack a champion can buy that for you. Star dragon with prince vs a champion. He can only get 5 overkill wounds i think it is. then your static combat res will keep you from running. (all the above is assuming a player throws their mounted lord into the front of your unit:)

Just to be annoying, I'd say that in this case you wouldn't want to challenge, at least not this turn :D. My reasoning would be that although you may hold this turn, your outlook doesn't look great from here on.

Rather, I would weather the attacks with your unit on the turn the dragon charges. Ok, he does have 10 attacks(!), but realistically he's probably only going to kill 6/7 with that, leaving you in a similar situation to that if you had challenged.

However, next turn you still (hopefully!) have your champion with which to challenge. As the dragon isn't charging, the rider and monster strike in intiative order (whereas on the charge they strike at the same time). As such, it's highly likely that the rider with his higher initiative will just kill your champion, probably causing around 2 wounds, leaving the dragon with nothing to attack! As a result, you will have now probably won combat with a 2/3 break test modifier and have a reasonable chance of routing the dragon.

It all goes a bit pear-shaped if your opponent shrewdly allocates an attack or two against the champion on his charge, but I think it's a risk worth taking.

Of course there are loads of other mitigating factors. For example, if your unit was only just hanging on to the ranks it needs for the +5 static combat bonus it may not be a good idea to take those rank and file casualties in the first turn. Another one would be if you were placed to counter charge the dragon in your next turn, in which case you'd almost certainly want to reduce rank and file casualties as much as possible.

Still, my point was to show that there do exist situations where it's best to think tactically about when to accept challenges, even when the situation seems clear cut :).

Cheers,

enyoss

Joe_Pineapples*sniper*
29-02-2008, 09:20
However I don't see any rule that says excess wounds on the champ carry over to the rest of the unit. Really that CAN'T be right, otherwise there's no reason NOT to throw all available attacks against him.



Correct. Any extra attacks that you specifically nominated against the champion, that cause wounds above his allowance, DO NOT carry over to the rank and file troops.

Generally with an average s3 t3 champion I would allocate 2 attacks against him, but that of course is circumstantial.

Asentaja
29-02-2008, 12:00
Not sure if it's in 7th ed., but in 6th ed. rulebook it said that excess wounds carried over to the unit in case of champions.
And I also belive that if the whole front rank is killed, champion is removed. Have to check that one though.

Krootman
29-02-2008, 13:57
Not sure if it's in 7th ed., but in 6th ed. rulebook it said that excess wounds carried over to the unit in case of champions.
And I also belive that if the whole front rank is killed, champion is removed. Have to check that one though.

its not the excess wounds (up to 5 or 6) count toward combat rez though which is fine, because you can only overkill up to 6 as already said so with a+5 bonus you only lose combat by 1 and then next turn you can flank and kill the character

guillaume
29-02-2008, 14:15
I really think its main usefulness is the fact that no matter how many models died in your unit, the champion always strike back, which sometimes can be the difference between running and winning the round.

So even if your front row dies, the champion is there to pick up the pieces.

That's the most obvious use.

The second use is the more tactical use of the challenges. This is very much a case/case scenario.

FigureFour
29-02-2008, 14:33
Still, my point was to show that there do exist situations where it's best to think tactically about when to accept challenges, even when the situation seems clear cut :).

And that's exactly what I wanted to hear. Thanks.


Not sure if it's in 7th ed., but in 6th ed. rulebook it said that excess wounds carried over to the unit in case of champions.
And I also belive that if the whole front rank is killed, champion is removed. Have to check that one though.

Yeah, I think the rulebook is a little unclear on this point, the could have cleared it up a lot with another sentence or two about how casualties are removed.

The relevant portion of the text says you can allocate wounds on the champion (nothing about weather wounds spill over on to him from the rank and file or to the rank and file, but I think we've got that clear now) and that "if THE UNIT suffers enough wounds to kill every model in it, the champion is removed." Don't know how it was in 6th ed, but it looks like now, the champion is the last to die (unless you throw attacks on him instead of the unit).

Joe_Pineapples*sniper*
29-02-2008, 15:48
The relevant portion of the text says you can allocate wounds on the champion (nothing about weather wounds spill over on to him from the rank and file or to the rank and file

It actaully says you can allocate attacks against the champion like
a character.

And whenever you allocate attacks against a character, you can not let them spill over on to the rank and file troops.

Regarding the removal of the champion you are correct in stating that he doesn't have to be removed until he is the last model. However seeing as the standard bearer automatically gives you +1 CR, it is generally accepted that the champion is the final 2nd/3rd model to be removed (possibly in favour of the musician)