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highelfmage
27-02-2008, 22:38
1can a corpse cart with a necromancer join a unit?

2 if yes, how many rank would u get if u had 20 skeleton 4 wide + corpse cart?


ref page plz. i say u cant count model twice but my friend it say it is physically there. help plz we have a game Friday.

Nedar
27-02-2008, 23:06
A CC can indeed join a unit if a necromancer is riding it. You also benefit from the "Look Out Sir!" special rule as you are less than US5 (US4).

As for the second question, people seem to want to debate it. I firmly believe you would have have 5 complete ranks in this situation (i plan on doing the exact same thing).

Reasons why are this:

In order to gain a rank bonus you must have a rank of at least 5 models. For each complete rank beyond the first containing at least 5 models you get +1 rank bonus (Up to +3). If you look at the formation you describe, there is 5 models in each rank...the CC happens to be the 5th model in 5 ranks...but it's the 5th model none-the-less. See Page 38 of the BRB under ranks.

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As illustrated, the CC base is larger, but that is irrelevant (it can never count as two models along the front like Slanns and Screaming Bell can). It is a model, no matter how much room it takes up.

I believe it is claimed that the unit would have to look like this:

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So you'd need 4 more models, but this is silly and RAW does not explicitly support it.


My first example is correct using the BRB as there is 5 models in each rank, even if the 5th model happens to be in all the ranks. The BRB makes no distinction whatsoever that a single model is limited to the size of the models in the unit it is in.

EDIT - Oh ya...Hi Ned. It's me of course. Might be easier for you to understand what I was saying with the above analysis.

theunwantedbeing
28-02-2008, 00:05
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The unit would be arranged like that, with the corpse cart taking up a single model across the width of the rank, but being counted once for each individual rank, so 5 ranks deep in this instance.

There is nothing in the rules that states each model cannot be placed in more than 1 rank, as the corpse cart is clearly a model in each of the 5 ranks above, despite being only a single model in itself, it is a single model for each rank.

Although if he was to leave the unit, you would need to expend movement to add another rank to gain any rank bonus.

Interestingly, if the corpse cart counts as a chariot.....he may not join a unit that is not a unit of chariots.

Nedar
28-02-2008, 05:31
Corpse Carts are not chariots, they are monsters.

T10
28-02-2008, 08:47
2 if yes, how many rank would u get if u had 20 skeleton 4 wide + corpse cart?


The rules for ranks and files do not take into account models larger than the common rank-and-file. Nor does it make allowances for these larger models to occupy more rank-and-file "slots" by dint of being, well, larger.

This means that you will need to come to an agreement with your opponent on how to resolve this.

I would suggest calculating the unit's rank bonus based on the number of models in the unit (the Corpse Cart is one model) and on the effective model width of the unit (the Corpse Cart's width would be the equivalent of two 20mm models or two cavalry models).

In the attached example the Corpse Cart with Necromancer has joined a unit of 11 Black Knights. The unit has a model count of 12, a unit Strength of 26 (11 x 2 plus 1 x 4) and an effective width of 5 rank-and-file models.

I suggest that the unit be treated as having two complete ranks (12 arranged 5 wide would in a normal homogenous unit have 2 x ranks of 5), yielding a +1 rank bonus to combat resolution.

-T10

highelfmage
28-02-2008, 20:15
i know the slann has a special rule so that is why i think the corpse cart is just count as one model.

Nedar
29-02-2008, 00:50
T10, that is not possible. The rules are 100% against the picture you have displayed as there is NOT 5 models in the first two ranks. No matter how large a model is, it is still just one model (Barring Slaans and Screaming Bell) so it can NOT take up the space of two models. However. if you moved the green square over and put 2 red ones in there it would be a legal formation, and happen to stick out ~25mm in the first two ranks.

The point is that a model can count as the 5th model in multiple ranks, but NOT in multiple files (excluding any special rules as previously stated).

Also, I do not need to come up with an agreement to my first posted set-up as RAW allows it. You only need 5 models, and it makes no stipulation that a single model can only count in one single rank regardless of size. But again, it can't be considered to be two models in files like some people seem to think I have claimed.

juample
29-02-2008, 01:21
I think a link will help you T10 to explain this

http://warseer.com/forums/fantasy-rules/126702-base-sizes-rank-bonus.html

Good luck!

highelfmage
29-02-2008, 13:54
you need 5 MODELS to gain rank bonus, not US5 or the size of 5 standard infantry bases. your cav in the front rank takes away any infantry fillers in the second rank to have rank bonus as the cav models count as being in the front rank (no double counting)
why do you ask?

sainthale1988

Festus
29-02-2008, 14:11
Why do you reply, highelfmage? :rolleyes:

Get your rules straight first: Nowhere in the rules does it say that there is no double counting - ie. how the models making up one rank are to be counted. Unsurprisingly, you cannot prove something which is not there...

Obviously it is not as easy as you seem to make it: Yes, 5 models make a rank - but if you mix bases, you will have to adjust.
T10's above is a proposal I might agree to, although I would count three ranks in total.

The best solution is to use the errata of 6th edition on how to treat models with larer bases in units of smaller bases: A model counts as the equivalent of the rank'n'file troopers its base occupies.

So an Ogre would count for 4 20/25mm infantry, a chariot or the cart for 4 cavalry or 2 ogres or 8 infantry, and so on.

It is easiest if you calculate in *slots* of 20/25mm infantry.

Festus

The Clairvoyant
29-02-2008, 16:32
Or just don't put it in a regiment at all and avoid the arguments altogether :)

juample
29-02-2008, 17:47
So an Ogre would count for 4 20/25mm infantry, a chariot or the cart for 4 cavalry or 2 ogres or 8 infantry, and so on.


I always thought in this equivalences:

1 infantry (20x20)=1 (25x25) infantry base.

1 ogre (40x40)=4 20x20 infantry bases
1 ogre(40x40)=1 25x25 infantry base.
1 ogre(40x40)= 1 cavalry (25x50) base

1monster(50x50)= 4 25x25 infantry bases
1monster(50x50)= 4 20x20 infantry bases
1monster (50x50)= 2 25x50 cavalry base
1monster (50x50)= 1 ogre (40x40) base

1charriot(50x100)=10 infantry (20x20)
1charriot(50x100)=8 infantry (25x25)
1charriot(50x100)=4 cavalry (25x50)
1charriot(50x100)=2 ogres (40x40)
1charriot(50x100)=2 Monsters (50x50)

Festus
29-02-2008, 18:42
Annual 2004, p. 113 is the best source we have IMNSHO

1 Ogre = 4 Infantry = 2 cavalry = 1 Monster = 1/2 Chariot

Festus

DarkTerror
29-02-2008, 19:11
Why do you reply, highelfmage? :rolleyes:

Get your rules straight first: Nowhere in the rules does it say that there is no double counting - ie. how the models making up one rank are to be counted. Unsurprisingly, you cannot prove something which is not there...

Obviously it is not as easy as you seem to make it: Yes, 5 models make a rank - but if you mix bases, you will have to adjust.
T10's above is a proposal I might agree to, although I would count three ranks in total.

The best solution is to use the errata of 6th edition on how to treat models with larer bases in units of smaller bases: A model counts as the equivalent of the rank'n'file troopers its base occupies.

So an Ogre would count for 4 20/25mm infantry, a chariot or the cart for 4 cavalry or 2 ogres or 8 infantry, and so on.

It is easiest if you calculate in *slots* of 20/25mm infantry.

Festus


This option may be easiest, but I don't see how you've come to this conclusion from the rules.

Stating that "Nowhere in the rules does it say that there is no double counting" is not rules advice.

That's as arbitrary as saying "nowhere in the rules does it say I can't (fill in the blank)".

juample
29-02-2008, 19:39
Yes we are arbitrary. It is only experience voice and the will of play in a easy and not so bad way. Is a very recomended houserule but you all are free to choose any other solution remember to spoke about this if ypou plan to mix bases of diferent sizes.


EDIT: In Spain no one GW publication were named "Annual 2004"; I think they are called here" Los Manuscritos de Altdorf " (The Altdorf Manuscripts) but i am not sure.
The article could be one where three examples of units with diferents sizes? (Archaon +chaos knights; Mounted empire BSB with great swordmen and another one i dont remember now)
I can search for it and take a pic of this book and post it if you think it is appropriate?

Festus
29-02-2008, 19:42
Hi

This option may be easiest, but I don't see how you've come to this conclusion from the rules.
I didn't. I came to the conclusion because of the lack of rules showing any kind of sense - and the previous editions' way to handle it.

If you want the point of the rules proper, maybe T10 wil show you his usual (abysmal) diagram ;)


Stating that "Nowhere in the rules does it say that there is no double counting" is not rules advice.
It shouldn't be *rules advice*, really ...

But there is sonething even worse: Stating opinion for fact:


... (no double counting)
why do you ask?
The rules simply do not say how to count the models that make up the ranks, as I outlined above. Various ways are possible: count each model once, or draw a line through each rank and count how many models it crosses, or measure the space occupied, or, or, or ...

Coupled with the cheeky question, this is very bad behaviour. So I reacted accordingly.

Festus

juample
29-02-2008, 20:13
Here goes a batery of links with old diagrams about this topic:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i73/juample/Ecorrecta.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i73/juample/electorcon8mal.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i73/juample/electorcon8.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i73/juample/caballo.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i73/juample/relicario.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i73/juample/escudos.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i73/juample/electorcon13.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i73/juample/electorcon12.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i73/juample/orcocon9.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i73/juample/orcocon8.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i73/juample/filacompleta.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i73/juample/barbaridad.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i73/juample/noestandificil2.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i73/juample/noestangrave.jpg

And this ones are about this old article unfortunately it is in spanish.
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i73/juample/personajesenunidades.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i73/juample/PeByespaderos.jpg