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Shaper Shakra
29-02-2008, 00:57
Just a few minor detail questions concerning marines.

-How far do bolt rounds penetrate before exploding? They would be able to shoot through glass I'm assuming?

-What shape is the blast from a bolt round? (Conical, round, etc.)

-How many rounds does the standard bolter clip hold?

-What kinds of equipment does a marine helmet have?

-Are older versions of power armor "better" than modern ones?

-How quickly does a drop pod go from being launched from ship to making planet fall?

-Is it common (or at least plaussible) for a single squad of marines to go renegade and escape their chapter?

Thanks in advance...I'm trying to build a story.

Khaine's Messenger
29-02-2008, 01:43
They would be able to shoot through glass I'm assuming?

They would be able to shoot through most glass as we think of it being manufactured today unless it's some sort of specially manufactured glass, yes. Whether it can shoot through other see-through materials would be up for debate, however. Goofy things with funny names, like transparasteel (if that's in 40k...my memory escapes me).


-What shape is the blast from a bolt round? (Conical, round, etc.)

I believe "crater" is the common descriptive term...although that's usually its effects on surroundings.


-How many rounds does the standard bolter clip hold?

According to Dark Heresy, 24. According to Inquisitor, you can have 20 (mk4, sickle mag), 40 (mk 4, drum), 30 (mk 3, belt), or 15 (mk 2, straight mag), and a bolt carbine generally has 20. I imagine other sources will be in that sort of ballpark.


-What kinds of equipment does a marine helmet have?

Various spectral vision filters, a vox pickup, a basic air filter. Captains might have some sort of psy-screener.


-Are older versions of power armor "better" than modern ones?

In a sense. Older marks are not, I would say, better on the whole, but the more recent changes to the design are incremental changes that have little effect depending on your preference for representation. That, and previous marks were designed with different ideas about war in mind. Mark One, for example, is some sort of absurdist technobarbarian "upper body strength" thing with exposed cables.

If you mean distinguishing between the various iterations of Mk VII armor, though...I'd say older might be better as long as it's still considered worthy of being in service. The armors that last are usually considered valuable and quite powerful relics.


-How quickly does a drop pod go from being launched from ship to making planet fall?

I think verisimilitude can be maintained without going into specifics, there....


-Is it common (or at least plaussible) for a single squad of marines to go renegade and escape their chapter?

Plausible? Yeah. Although the proof is, as ever, in the pudding.

Shaper Shakra
29-02-2008, 02:53
I think verisimilitude can be maintained without going into specifics, there...

I actually meant more along the lines of will the enemy be able to set up some adequate sort of defence in time. Most modern navies can scramble fighters fairly quickly I'm told, would marines expect to be taking heavy casualties when deploying via drop pod, or do they usually knock out these systems first? In a straightforward fight I can't see them going in without bombarding the target from orbit beforehand, but what if they're going for an element of surprise or the area they're landing in has some significance? Will they have to worry about flak/enemy flyers (Thunderhawks never really seemed agile enough for an air superiority role to me)?

zoodog
29-02-2008, 03:04
-How quickly does a drop pod go from being launched from ship to making planet fall?

Think of them as torpedoes or missiles with guys inside, there very difficult to shoot down unless you good warning or thick air cover when they slow down to land

The_Patriot
29-02-2008, 03:07
Just a few minor detail questions concerning marines.

[QUOTE=Shaper Shakra;2396654]-How far do bolt rounds penetrate before exploding? They would be able to shoot through glass I'm assuming?

They penetrate unarmored flesh about halfway into the body and explode. Against armored targets it can be deflected by the armor or it can go up to half way into the body before exploding.


-What shape is the blast from a bolt round? (Conical, round, etc.)

It's conical since the blast spreads out from body of the bolter shell.


-How many rounds does the standard bolter clip hold?

Bolter magazines come in the following shapes with the amount of ammo they carry.

Straight: 15
Belt: 30
Sickle: 20
Drum: 40


-What kinds of equipment does a marine helmet have?

The Marine helmet has respirators for breathing when in self contained mode, food and drink tubes for eating, UV/IR/other light spectrum modes, gas filters to remove toxins from the air when filtering outside air, vox, a heads up display that shows the tactical map along with all the icons for every squad member and spotted enemy targets, targeting site, and movement compensation using a trajectory overlay for shooting.


-Are older versions of power armor "better" than modern ones?

Older versions often lack the protection and the advanced gear the later models have. A MK 1 is inferior to a MK VIII suit and the MK 1 suit is heavily modified with the latest technology.


-How quickly does a drop pod go from being launched from ship to making planet fall?

Roughly 15 minutes depending upon if the chutes deploy properly and the grav engines kick in.


-Is it common (or at least plaussible) for a single squad of marines to go renegade and escape their chapter?

Thanks in advance...I'm trying to build a story.

Anything is possible, but I'd say that it would take an awful lot to break a squad of their faith in the Emperor and to turn their backs on Him.

Nazguire
29-02-2008, 03:20
Just a few minor detail questions concerning marines.

-What kinds of equipment does a marine helmet have?

-Are older versions of power armor "better" than modern ones?

-How quickly does a drop pod go from being launched from ship to making planet fall?

-Is it common (or at least plaussible) for a single squad of marines to go renegade and escape their chapter?

Thanks in advance...I'm trying to build a story.

1: Everything and anything that would be remotely needed in a warzone. Night/IR vision, advanced filtering systems, Heads Up Displays, internal oxygen supply, temperature control, older background I'm pretty sure had anti-psyker equipment, though I'm not sure if that is still valid (I'd say not.

2: The oldest armour no, it is certainly not more advanced or better. As Khaine's Messenger also said, some Marks of armour were designed with different roles. Some were designed for boarding actions for example, so had far thicker armour at the front and more complex filtering/oxygen supply systems then other types. The current Mark is jack of all trades, can do everything well.

3. If you believe GW, mere minutes after launch.

4. Reading the current Chaos Codex, it seems most renegade Marines are just renegade individuals and squads (rarely whole Companies/Chapters) who join up with like minded individuals. The Red Corsairs for example are now no longer purely Astral Claws, but a mongrel mix of different Space Marines from different Chapters gone renegade.

Feor
29-02-2008, 03:35
The Weapons diagram page in the BGB (pg 34) lists bolters as 20-30 round magazine, bolt pistol with 6-10, and storm bolters with 40-60. Bolters and Stormbolters should use the same ammunition, so it's not inconceivable for a storm bolter magazine to get mounted to a bolter. (and I believe scouts are typically shown with such a magazine, probably for a longer ammo life when spereated from their supply lines)

Helmets will also have an external speaker and mic, for verbal communication when suit integrity must be maintained.

Drop Pods are extremely hard to shoot down, A typical drop pod deployment is actually 4 or 5 times as many pods as marines (extra are chaff, and will be deathwind pattern, so have missiles or assualt cannons in them instead of marines), and they're travelling at missile velocities. Even if the enemy managed to scramble fighters, it'd be your classic "bullet with a bullet" scenario with the added complication of half the target bullets not really counting for anything.

And for a single Squad Turning traitor, Codex Chaos Space Marines actually has the story of the Wolf Of Fenris, a Strike Cruiser boarded by the Red Corsairs where, after several hours of fighting, the last baston of wolf resistance fell when a squad of Space Wolves turned on their fellows, slaughtered them, then pledged allegiance to Blackheart. So no, the concept is not without precedence.

Khaine's Messenger
29-02-2008, 03:37
Will they have to worry about flak/enemy flyers (...)?

They'd probably only have to worry about automated interceptors, like those proposed/tested to be used against orbital nuclear weaponry or space debris. Then again, this is 40k, so I would not be surprised if there were humans in the pilot seats of such craft....

However (after some quick Googling), it could take some ~30 minutes for, eg, Soyuz capsules to return to Earth "safely*," so I think a thirty minute lag and the potential for having to worry about space-plane/flak interception is there. Such defenses may be like trying to swat flies with desert eagles, though. I'd be more worried about jamming, personally.

* Then again, what with braking technologies possibly being "cool" and Space Marines being ubermensch, "safe" may have quite a different definition.

Shaper Shakra
29-02-2008, 03:41
See, I was always under the impression that drop pods have to drastically slow down after entering atmosphere. You know, so the marines don't get shaken-baby syndrome kaioken X100.

And on marine helmets, do they display readouts on the marine's vitals/suit integrity?

The_Patriot
29-02-2008, 03:44
See, I was always under the impression that drop pods have to drastically slow down after entering atmosphere. You know, so the marines don't get shaken-baby syndrome kaioken X100.

And on marine helmets, do they display readouts on the marine's vitals/suit integrity?

Drop pods are shot into the atmosphere, but they all have chutes and grav drives to slow the descent. The novel Grey Knights has a great description of a drop pod assault. They only show if the individual is alive (green rune) or dead (red rune).

Shaper Shakra
29-02-2008, 03:47
Wait...marines are so killy that they need their suits to tell them that they're dead? Am I understanding you correctly? Is it a squad linked system or something?

The_Patriot
29-02-2008, 03:49
Wait...marines are so killy that they need their suits to tell them that they're dead? Am I understanding you correctly? Is it a squad linked system or something?

It's a squad linked system where the squad leader (or anyone in the squad) can tell if a member is dead or alive. Also the squad leader can send out his view feed to the entire squad so they can see what he can. I presume it's the same for everyone in the squad.

Nazguire
29-02-2008, 03:52
The power armour helmet does display any issues the suit has. In one of the Space Wolves novels, Ragnar remarks on the fact that his suit has minor issues, and he had to pull it's power usage down a small bit. It's in the Space Wolves Codex if you wanna look.

The_Patriot
29-02-2008, 03:54
The power armour helmet does display any issues the suit has. In one of the Space Wolves novels, Ragnar remarks on the fact that his suit has minor issues, and he had to pull it's power usage down a small bit. It's in the Space Wolves Codex if you wanna look.

I remember that from the Space Wolf Omnibus.

Goruax
29-02-2008, 06:26
With regards to helmets, it's often made a point of by GW that SM Commanders have advanced systems and can draw up info on any squad under their command and can usually communicate with greater efficiency/range, etc.

As for the older mark armour thing; Imperial Armour 2 is a great source if you own it.
If not, go get it!
It details the older marks and the changes the latest suits have gotten.
Generally, older marks have some 'better' things, usually because of dark* age technologies that are more efficient than anything the modern tech's can come up with.


*Always wondered why it was called 'dark'...maybe because with AI going haywire, technology was seen as bad...dunno...

Feor
29-02-2008, 11:35
The AdMech actually calls it the Golden Age of Technology. Most of the Imperium is less trusting of their high falootin' science. :p

pookie
29-02-2008, 12:38
And for a single Squad Turning traitor, Codex Chaos Space Marines actually has the story of the Wolf Of Fenris, a Strike Cruiser boarded by the Red Corsairs where, after several hours of fighting, the last baston of wolf resistance fell when a squad of Space Wolves turned on their fellows, slaughtered them, then pledged allegiance to Blackheart. So no, the concept is not without precedence.


there us also a story about a UM (iirc) sgt that goes renegade in the Dex.

Leftenant Gashrog
29-02-2008, 13:04
This is a fairly comprehensive guide to power armour marks:
The Bolter and Chainsword - Librarium - Index Astartes: Adeptus Astartes Power Armour : A 40k Space Marine Resource (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?autocom=ineo&showarticle=43)



As for the older mark armour thing; Imperial Armour 2 is a great source if you own it.
If not, go get it!
It details the older marks and the changes the latest suits have gotten.
:wtf: can I get a page number on that? because I dont recall any mention of power armour marks in either Imperial Armour 2 or Imperial Armour volume 2.


there us also a story about a UM (iirc) sgt that goes renegade in the Dex. Constantinus the Liberator, formerly of the Sons of Guilliman (an UM successor chapter)

Theres also a rather awesome bit of fluff about the Swords of Khargoth here:
GW Online : Warhammer 40,000 : Chaos Space Marines : Creating Your Own Renegade Space Marines (http://uk.games-workshop.com/chaosspacemarines/renegades/3/)


food and drink tubes for eating It may have been retconned, but the old RT diagram of power armour had nutrients being injected directly into the bloodstream via an injector on the back plate.

Burnthem
29-02-2008, 13:17
This may be my own little thing but i like to think of Drop Pods being extremely fast in deployment. A modern spacecraft has to take its time and approach on a specific course to avoid burning up. I imagine that with the advanced armour available (as well as pods being one use only if required) Drop Pods could be fired straight down into the atmosphere, approaching huge speeds until just before they hit the ground, where they use hard burning rockets to slow down the pod at the very last moment.

The landing would be a bit rough, i dont expect a 'standard' human could survive being inside an impacting Drop Pod, but these are Marines after all.

Goruax
29-02-2008, 14:10
:wtf: can I get a page number on that? because I dont recall any mention of power armour marks in either Imperial Armour 2 or Imperial Armour volume 2.

Hmmmm, it seems you're right.

I think I got entirely confused by the Lexicanum and IA:2 :angel:
Was reading them at the same time...

Aeolian
29-02-2008, 14:43
I read in the 3rd edition marine codex a crimson fists story where the marine says something along the lines of 'this armour is crappy, the older stuff was better made' but I would imagine it depends on location, some newer stuff may be better.

Aeolian
29-02-2008, 14:45
I actually meant more along the lines of will the enemy be able to set up some adequate sort of defence in time. Most modern navies can scramble fighters fairly quickly I'm told, would marines expect to be taking heavy casualties when deploying via drop pod, or do they usually knock out these systems first? In a straightforward fight I can't see them going in without bombarding the target from orbit beforehand, but what if they're going for an element of surprise or the area they're landing in has some significance? Will they have to worry about flak/enemy flyers (Thunderhawks never really seemed agile enough for an air superiority role to me)?

Marines have fighters and land speeder type fighters too..

pookie
29-02-2008, 15:01
Marines have fighters and land speeder type fighters too..

and they are called....?

Marines use Thunderhawks for Air to Ground Support, or air to air support, ive neve known them having there own fighters, and afaik theres only 4 types of Land speeder but none are 'interceptor' type fighters.

leo_neil316
29-02-2008, 15:07
You ever read schlock mercenary?

Theres this bit early on where a bunch of the toughs get ambushed by loads of grav tanks (kinda tank/fighter thingies).

The toughs get 'close air support' from a big honking space-ship. I reckon thats what the marines do.

'Theres alot of enemy fighters in the area so you might want us to escort your landers down.'

'No thanks, we'll just move into low orbit and start throwing lance strikes and all our point defences at them.'

'Isn't that a bit overkill?'

'There is no overkill, only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload'.'

Aeolian
29-02-2008, 15:24
and they are called....?

Marines use Thunderhawks for Air to Ground Support, or air to air support, ive neve known them having there own fighters, and afaik theres only 4 types of Land speeder but none are 'interceptor' type fighters.

Go on the forgeworld website.

Chaplain Dionitas
29-02-2008, 18:28
Land Speeder Tempest is what I think he's talking about.

Feor
29-02-2008, 21:46
Space Marines use Land Speeders for roles that modern military use Attack Helicopters for, they use Thunderhawks for every other air role you can think of. Why? Becuase the thunderhawk is as fast and as maneuverable as any other fighter used by the Imperium, with more firepower than most bombers used by the Imperium, AND more transport capacity than most bombers used by the Imperium. Basically, if the Heresey hadn't happened, there would be no Thunderbolts, Marauders, or Valkyries, everyone would just be using the Thunderhawk.

Leftenant Gashrog
29-02-2008, 22:18
The Land Speeder Tempest isn't an interceptor, its a ground attack craft.

Vaulkhar
29-02-2008, 22:32
Marines don't deploy a fighter in the sense of a Thunderbolt or a Lightning. The Thunderhawk is at one extreme as a super heavy gunship/bomber with enough point defences to take on fighters and enjoy some success but lacking the manoeuvrability to do anything other than bludgeon its way to the destination. The Land Speeders - of which the Tempest is the most heavily armed - are at the other end of the scale. Whilst they can make up to 300kph dash speed and have an extraordinarily tight turning circle, bear in mind that a typical 40k fighter has a dash speed of 1500kph or more. A Tempest might give a careless fighter jock a nasty surprise, just as an Apache might be able to put the wind (and a missile) up a MiG...it just doesn't happen very often.

Lord Malice
29-02-2008, 23:39
On the matter of bolt rounds it very much depends. They are 'mass reactive' and so the bolt will detonate once it registers it is at the right density. Presumably in that case, against a human target or similar, the bolt can tell how far inside the body it has travelled, how far it has left to travel before exiting and detonates at the middle point. Sometimes the bolt does not detonate due to a malfunction; in the novel Fire Warrior this happens where Kais is shot in the head but the bolt does not detonate and is later used as a makeshift grenade.

Other types of bolt detonate close to a target but without penetrating, such as the Metal Storm Frag Shell. I see no reason why, with a little imagination, you couldn't come up with more varieties of bolt for various situations. Outside of the Astartes or the Sororitas bolt weapons are hard to find and maintain and any specialist ammo would be similarly rare if not more so.

Gazak Blacktoof
29-02-2008, 23:53
the thunderhawk is as fast and as maneuverable as any other fighter used by the Imperium,

Simply put if this is actually background material its stupid background material.

The thunderhawk is basically a flying brick, with aerodynamics to match. Even with big stonking engines its never going to beat a lightning or thunderbolt for manoeuvrability.

I'd side with Vaulkhar's summation of the thunderhawk. Its only way though flak and fighter screens is using it as a bludgeon.

pookie
03-03-2008, 09:49
Go on the forgeworld website.

still cant see anything, post a link so i can take a look at what you mean?

if its the LS Tempest then thats not a fighter, as lots of people bewteen our posts point out, the Thunderhawk is whats used, Speeders are close ground support for infantry.

heretics bane
03-03-2008, 16:25
Simply put if this is actually background material its stupid background material.

The thunderhawk is basically a flying brick, with aerodynamics to match. Even with big stonking engines its never going to beat a lightning or thunderbolt for manoeuvrability.

I'd side with Vaulkhar's summation of the thunderhawk. Its only way though flak and fighter screens is using it as a bludgeon.

QFT- To true, they are! Its like sticking big thrusters of the back of Chrysler:rolleyes: