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View Full Version : any tips and tricks on how to protect your flanks versus woodelves?



warlord hack'a
29-02-2008, 07:25
Hi there,

I am running a 2250 O&G force with a heavy center (2 svg orc blocks, one normal orc block) and light wings (3 fast cav units and 2 chariots and sometimes my night gobbo unit).

Now this setup works fine for me versus most enemies, but woodelves can pack a lot of punch on the flank due to their skirmishing wardancers and dryads so I am always in danger of having my flanks run over.

Has anybody got any tips to prevent this? Shooting will not work enough due to skirmish and them being ItP, putting my big blocks on the flanks will leave the center open, so that does not help, fanatics are great but again due to ItP they will hurt but the woodies will keep on coming, and my fast cav is first of all afraid of them and second of all will only kill themselves when charging. And finally marchblocking will not work with light units as the skirmishers can charge in all directions (hiding in/behind terrain helped me delay him somewhat yesterday)..

Am I missing something or is this just the way that woodelves are supposed to work? Right now I am thinking of getting an extra boar chariot just to stop woodelves, do not know if it will work though. Also I thought about a weighed flank but there was only one hill I could use for artillery and it was in the middle of my deployment zone..

Leogun_91
29-02-2008, 08:37
Stubborn or unbreakable troops should be best at preventing that super punch and if the troops are right they can break them in later turns. O&G donīt have many of these (and no Snotlings donīt do it even if they are stubborn).
I would think squig hoppers (thou very random) could help with some luck and so could pump wagons.

Wyverns could work but they would probobly be blown to bits immidiately and Grom provides both speed and elfkilling glory.

Armilthuan
29-02-2008, 09:14
The final word in O&G sneakyness: Squigs!

Squig Hoppers are a godsend for the O&G armies. They can do things Wood elves could only DREAM of...

My friend runs a unit of 8 + a Night Goblin on Giant Squig. he always employs these as flank protectors. The random movement may be a problem, but if you're sending both units at one target, it will almost be gauranteed one will hit.

Remember that their average is 10-11 inch a turn.

Worried about them drawing shooting attention? Deploy a small Squig herd (60 points) and you have yourself an ItP unit that draws fire like crazy! And if they make it into contact with the enemy, rejoice!

Da Black Gobbo
29-02-2008, 09:25
gobbos on wolves, lots of them they are cheap and fast 4 units of 5 with musician and spears, you don't need to kill the flanking unit just try to hold them.

warlord hack'a
29-02-2008, 09:28
thanks, thoguh about hoppers, but with animosity and no armour save AND random movement I still find it hard to take the hoppers. BUt I will proxy them for my next battle and try them out.

warlord hack'a
29-02-2008, 09:38
gobbo's on wolves will not work: first off they will get shot. I have three units of fast cav (2 spiders, one wolves) and usually one or 2 are shot to death by the end of turn 2, even tough I try to put them in cover as much as possible). Then the gobs fear the dryads because they cause fear, and they fear the wardancers because they are elves. So charging (which is not a good diea in the first place) is out of the question.

Leaves marchblocking and hindering, but that means that either I will get charged, flee and hope to rally and he will not be hindered a lot (okay, loses 5 inch of movement), or my fast cav will get shot and as soon as a second models is dead panic checks start..

I am looking for something mroe resillient to ptotect my flanks, just removed a BO big boss and turned him into an orc chariot, so now I have three chariots, see how that works.. Also, chaoirts are always useful!

DO keep coming with the advise, anybody tried fanatics on the flanks?

FurryMiguell
29-02-2008, 09:39
a unit of night gobbos with 3 fanatics. walk them up the flank, and releasee the fanatics. nothing will get past that easily!

better still if you play skaven, rattling gun:p

Cheers:D

Red_Duke
29-02-2008, 10:01
Heh, with Skaven you can almost dispense with the whole 'having a flank' thing by sheer weight of units ;)

Another option is to deploy nearer one side of the board so you can keep one flank untouchable, and then as already mentioned, squig hoppers on the other. Should be able to keep some of the nasties away

SkawtheFalconer
29-02-2008, 10:05
Red Duke's idea is a good one. Alternatively to the Squigs, if you have a character in a unit that's about to be flanked, move him to the corner. That will definitely make the Wood Elf think twice, as I don't think Wardancers or Dryads would be a dead cert to take anything other than maybe Orc boys in the flank.

Armilthuan
29-02-2008, 10:10
Fanatics will not work (often).

Fanatics die if they hit any terrain.

Wood elves often hide in forests or other terrain(the skirmishers, that is).

The protocol is obvious.

However, if you can stay more than 10 inch away from the forests, you can protect your flank with fanatics. But 10 inch is a lot of space which you, as the O&G does not always have.


thanks, thoguh about hoppers, but with animosity and no armour save AND random movement I still find it hard to take the hoppers. BUt I will proxy them for my next battle and try them out.

If you fear animosity, you're not playing as an orc general should...

Even so, it is a common misconception that animosity hurts Squig Hoppers. Nothing is less from the truth. Squig Hoppers MUST always move 3D6 in the Compulsory movement. If you roll a squabble, you are not permitted to move in the remaining moves phase or declare charges, but Squig Hoppers do neither of these.

As I said, you should take a Squig Herd alongside them. So about shooting, he wants to shoot:

A: The Squig Hoppers
B: The Night Goblin on Giant Squig
C: The Squig Herd
D: The Chariots

See where I'm heading? There are just so many units he wants to shoot. If you have more such units, it becomes even trickier.

I am always confronted with these units to shoot:

Squig Hoppers
Night Goblin on Giant Squig
Squig Herd
One Boar Chariot
A Giant
A unit of Savage Orc Boar Boys
A unit of three Stone Trolls

For me as a High elf player, with magic and RBT. That's impossible to shoot. Wood elves only fare a little better...

Edit: To use Squig Hoppers, you need time to figure out how best to use them. Once you know, you can put the fear in the enemy. I fear them already...

theunwantedbeing
29-02-2008, 10:32
Large ranked units work fine. Skirmishers dont negate rank bonuses, nor do they get any of their own.

By large, I mean 30-50 strong.
Wood elves dont have much of a counter to units like that, especially with character's on the corner's of the units

Trolls and giants always pose a problem to them as well.

Chariots are good support units, sure they are a bit slower than your normal units but the larger charge range makes the difference, plus wood elves wont be overly worried about them so wont pay them the attention they need.
Large units are very difficult to remove with only shooting.

warlord hack'a
29-02-2008, 13:17
well the probolem was that I had some juicy warmachines on a hill in the middle of my deployment zone and since he was winning on one flank he would have been able to wipe those out on turn 5 and 6 (but we stopped at turn 4).

But it was also my fault, I concentrated too much in the center, shoudl have put some orcs on the flank..

FurryMiguell
29-02-2008, 13:26
I use fanatics to guard my flenk! they work exelent! yes, it is a problem that they can die easily, but at least CC infantry will not be able to cross without a big chance of being hit. It makes your opponent think twice before moving up there. though again, against WE it might not me such a good idea...

Cheers!

ZeroTwentythree
29-02-2008, 13:30
Red Duke is mentions several good ideas. I play skaven and used to play an all-gobbo army.

The thing to avoid is playing the game the way the WE player wants it to be played. So right from the start, forget about chasing him in terrain or even getting close to woods. Keep your whole army together so that he can't pick off individual units. So that means either moving your entire army in cooperation with each other or staying in one place.

If you're moving, try "herding" the WE. They'll want to avoid combats unless they can maximize their hitting power, get flanks, etc. You don't have to actually use all of your units as a direct attack, use some of them as a threat or bait in order to get him to move where you want to. You should be able to get the numbers for that with O&G.

Another option is to castle-up, dwarf style. Drop magic, rock lobbers, etc. on his head and go ahead and let him shoot back. He's really going to have to get into combat to make the game decisive, IMHO. He can level a decent amount of shooting at you, but most likely not enough to kill off the army. Keeping the deployment tight, you should be able to make maximum use of the general's LD this way as well.

Armilthuan
29-02-2008, 13:31
I use them to protect my main savage orc unit from being baited. 2 cheap units of Night Gobbo's with a single fanatic each works wonders in keeping away all those baiters! :D

Edit: Spelling mistakes

Krootman
29-02-2008, 13:39
Large ranked units work fine. Skirmishers dont negate rank bonuses, nor do they get any of their own.

By large, I mean 30-50 strong.
Wood elves dont have much of a counter to units like that, especially with character's on the corner's of the units

Trolls and giants always pose a problem to them as well.

Chariots are good support units, sure they are a bit slower than your normal units but the larger charge range makes the difference, plus wood elves wont be overly worried about them so wont pay them the attention they need.
Large units are very difficult to remove with only shooting.
If you take a big block of 30+ boys, a unit of dryads, and alter noble, and a 6 man wildrider unit shoud have no prob breaking that in 1 turn.

As for giants...they are ok but at t5 and no armor 1 lucky hail of doom arrow can see them off or even a close range volly of glade guard. Also dont forget we have treemen and treekin and unless you get thump with club the giant will prob die in that combat.

Make sure you kill his scouts first they will march block you and will become annoying very fast. Also take staff of sneaky stealing, thats another dice that can help stop his treesinging which can only be a good thing.

warlord hack'a
29-02-2008, 14:23
this is slowly dissolving into a 'what to do against woodleves thread' while I know what to do against them, it is just that I am looking into fortifying my flanks. My guess is I am not careful enough with my fast cav, next time I will try to keep them alive longer so they can harass more..

Krootman
29-02-2008, 14:32
this is slowly dissolving into a 'what to do against woodleves thread' while I know what to do against them, it is just that I am looking into fortifying my flanks. My guess is I am not careful enough with my fast cav, next time I will try to keep them alive longer so they can harass more..
Thought you were asking that as well, thats just as important as understanding how to protect your flanks.

But have you ever thought about 2 units of savage ork boys protecting your flanks, most wood elf players dont really have more then a unit or 2 of archers so he will not have enough fire to kill them fast. If you take a big enough block he will not be able to kill them in 1 turn and then you can flank and counter charge and kill his advance in his tracks

fubukii
29-02-2008, 15:16
I normally just deploy from one side of the table to the other with my horde army. The best bet is too anchor on one table edge, then eliminate units he wants to combo charge with, for example if you see a alter noble wild riders and some wardancers coming up uour flank maybe kill the riders and the noble with ur shooting or magic, now is combo attack is a desperate effort at best. (headbutt does great vs elf characters)

MountainMammoth
29-02-2008, 15:49
I may be using them wrong but WE skirmishers in the flank aren't that affective. Static combat res of 5 is just too hard to out kill when orcs are involved. So the fast cav is what you have to worry about. (treemen can flank too but they are slow compared to elves and are enough points that you should be focusing on them which means they shouldn't be on the flank in the first place)

Consider a killy character (orcs do that fairly well) on the exterior side of a large unit of either black or savage orcs (even normal orcs can do in a pinch)to anchor a flank. Most times you will only need to do 3 wounds against the common 5 man frail elf unit to negate their flank bonus (less if they have suffered shooting wounds). You still lose ranks that turn but if you can keep it even by killing enough other stuff (the black orc armor or the savage frenzy +ward save can help as well as a BSB in that unit though that is a lot of eggs in one orc basket) and you will get your ranks back next turn. If wild riders are on the table consider making them the focus of your attack (even small units can run several hundred points which is a sizable chuck for WE) and turning to face them. If they dance around your are keeping them out of combat which is good for you. Sacrificing wolf rider units to herd wild riders into the front of your orc blocks (static 5 at least) can also work. Place a wolf unit in front of the wild riders leaving the orcs an open charge lane. They now can choose to charge (even if the gobbos flee due to fear the wilds are coming at your waiting orcs) and whip the unit out and leave themselves open for a wagh charge next turn or they can move 9 and try to get out of the way and you do it all over again. Trade a pawn to net a rook essentially. Shooting can also anchor/deny a flank if done right. 20 night gobbo archers (with or without fanatics) can eliminate glade riders with a small amount of luck (5 dead takes on average 36 shots and you only need to kill 3 to neuter a 5 elf unit from a flanking perspective).

ZeroTwentythree
29-02-2008, 15:59
this is slowly dissolving into a 'what to do against woodleves thread' while I know what to do against them, it is just that I am looking into fortifying my flanks.

Well, the two are the same, IMHO. I don't think it's as simple as "what can I put on my flanks to WE proof them?" The WE play so differently, that you have to alter the way you play otherwise they will worm around those flanks.






If you take a big block of 30+ boys, a unit of dryads, and alter noble, and a 6 man wildrider unit shoud have no prob breaking that in 1 turn.

How many points are 30 orc boys?

And that's in a vacuum, without considering what the rest of the O&G are doing. Hence my comment about regarding having to think about the whole army. I mean, that's important about any match up, but especially with most ranked-up armies vs. WE.

That Guy
29-02-2008, 23:23
I must say I'm a little confused. The WE player you usually play against runs Dryads and Wardancers up the flank? That's a really bad idea. All you have to do against that is put your big ranked units on your flanks.

The real problem is the light cavalry that he should be putting against your flanks. There's very little you can do against these guys, since they're faster than everything in your army except for Wyverns. Still, use your light cavalry to redirect them into disadvantageous positions. Force them to choose between charging your light cavalry and going out of position or putting themselves in a position in which they can be charged.

When I charge a flank with Glade Riders, I do it for the +3 effective combat resolution (negating ranks). Put a hero on the corner and get those three points of CR right back.

Finally, why are you so committed to your war machines against Wood Elves? Really the only thing they're good for is the Treeman, who will usually be hidden and surfed anyways.

Anyways, just my thoughts and experiences.

Krootman
01-03-2008, 01:39
I must say I'm a little confused. The WE player you usually play against runs Dryads and Wardancers up the flank? That's a really bad idea. All you have to do against that is put your big ranked units on your flanks.

The real problem is the light cavalry that he should be putting against your flanks. There's very little you can do against these guys, since they're faster than everything in your army except for Wyverns. Still, use your light cavalry to redirect them into disadvantageous positions. Force them to choose between charging your light cavalry and going out of position or putting themselves in a position in which they can be charged.

When I charge a flank with Glade Riders, I do it for the +3 effective combat resolution (negating ranks). Put a hero on the corner and get those three points of CR right back.

Finally, why are you so committed to your war machines against Wood Elves? Really the only thing they're good for is the Treeman, who will usually be hidden and surfed anyways.

Anyways, just my thoughts and experiences.

why would u charge a flank with glade riders...they wount live long enough to even give you that combat bonus, wild riders are a different story, also a big unit of ork boys is actually pretty cheep and he only needs 2 units of 20 savage ork boys to protect his flanks

Jericho
02-03-2008, 20:06
Savage Orcs on the flank is pretty gross. If the opponent doesn't kill enough then the Elves are gonna get smoked in return. Knock them below US5 and they become pretty useless.

FurryMiguell
03-03-2008, 06:53
well, I guess ye olde wolfriders could work. or spider riders:D

Cheers!

warlord hack'a
04-03-2008, 09:33
the woodelf player I was facing runs 2 units of wardancers (8 and 10), 3 units of dryads (10 per unit), 2 units of 5 glade riders, 2 units of 5 waywatchers and 1 unit of wild riders.

I was not really into trouble but I envisioned I could be if he just put his forces spread out and then in the first two turns moved everything towards the flanks. I have 2 big blocks of svg orcs but they are slow so when on the flanks an not easily make it to the middle and vice versa.

But I dsid some math and indeed skirmishers are not that scary, okay he hits hard but in the two combats that impressed me and caused me to write this post I did the math and it turned out he was lucky with his dice rolling. E.g. I charged his 1st unit of dryads with my svg orcs, but flunked my attacks so we stayed in combat. HE then flanked me with a second unit of dryads and killed 10! svg orcs, so I was gone.. But mathematically he should have killed 5, which would have put us on even footing.
But on the flank 2 wardancers managed to break a unit of night gob's who were at +3 static CR advantage.. And that was NOT lucky dice rolling.. But then again it were night gobs.. And of course the wardancers were filled with vengeance as the fanatics form this unit had just killed 8 wardancers.. ;-)

Krootman
04-03-2008, 14:30
Well, the two are the same, IMHO. I don't think it's as simple as "what can I put on my flanks to WE proof them?" The WE play so differently, that you have to alter the way you play otherwise they will worm around those flanks.




How many points are 30 orc boys?

And that's in a vacuum, without considering what the rest of the O&G are doing. Hence my comment about regarding having to think about the whole army. I mean, that's important about any match up, but especially with most ranked-up armies vs. WE.




Well reguardless I always over charge something because once wood elfs get behind you, your in big trouble. Actually a block of 30 ork boys is pretty cheep .

If you want to put somehting wood elf proff on your flanks take savage ork boys, they are unbreakbale....they wount break they will tie the wood elfs up and the longer the combat the more you can add to it and the greater chanceu will win it.