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View Full Version : Forest, line of sight enemy in the way. (picture situation)



juample
29-02-2008, 08:55
Look at the picture situation

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/6907/silvanosps1.jpg


Waywatchers are hideen in the forest (no line of sight).
Glade guards behind it.
Errant knights want to charge (any unit) but only see the gladeguards.

Can Errants knights declare charge (Glade guards are also in charge range counting the movement penalties for the forest.)

theunwantedbeing
29-02-2008, 09:31
They are free to declare an enemy in the way charge against the waywatchers if that is what you are asking.

juample
29-02-2008, 09:41
They are free to declare an enemy in the way charge against the waywatchers if that is what you are asking.

Exactly this. I like the answer (i was the Bretonnian player xD)

juample
29-02-2008, 21:22
Would you consider unfair this charge?

alextroy
01-03-2008, 04:49
The knights may not declare a charge as their target is clearly out of charge range.

Festus
01-03-2008, 08:30
Agreed: The KE may not declare this charge in the first place: They will never be able to complete it. So both are safe, the Waywatchers and the GGuard.

Festus

juample
01-03-2008, 10:17
1)And what about the charge against glade guards is declared before waywatchers were there (in example the waywatchers flee from another charge an finish his movement in this position). Can now declare a new charge on Waywatchers?

EDIT Charge against glade guards in this case is alredy declared, but can redeclare a charge against waywatchers?

2)Or what about if EK charge on glade guards becose they think waywatchers will flee becose another unit declared charge on them (and the are goig to flee and they will no be there to disturb the Errant Knights?-

Festus
01-03-2008, 11:00
Hi

You don't seem to understand: The KE may not declare the charge at all, as it will obviously fail. They will only have a meagre 4" charge range through the forest, which is not even close to being able to reach the intended target.

You may not declare charges which will obviously fail. So neither a charge declaration nor any EitW is possible.

Festus

juample
01-03-2008, 11:26
Hi

You don't seem to understand: The KE may not declare the charge at all, as it will obviously fail. They will only have a meagre 4" charge range through the forest, which is not even close to being able to reach the intended target.

You may not declare charges which will obviously fail. So neither a charge declaration nor any EitW is possible.

Festus

I understand. My mistake. I thought they are out of range becose waywatchers were there. In this case 3 things to say.

1)The eternal discussion. Lets gues there is no a metrical tape when you declare charge and is no easy to say if they are or not in range. Or better,lets guess EK have failed their Impetuos test and they must charge (or they are Frenzied EKnights :confused:)

2) I make the diagram! i put them to stay at range!:D
wood width:7''
EKcharge movement:16 (8x2)

After crosing the 7'' wood still 2'' left, enought to get to the glade guards.

3)Lets guess, they have enought movement to get GG ... what will happen?
Can de charge be declared, Can redeclare against WW?

Festus
01-03-2008, 11:47
Hi

Ok, let's get this sorted out:

1) If we were talking about one inch or a fraction of an inch of the charge range (which is 4"!), the Waywatchers could not be hidden at all (you need 2" in a wood to be hidden) and the KE could declare the charge on them.
And they could not have failed their Impetousness test, as they have nowhere to charge. They are simply out of charge range. Period.

2) The KE only have 4" charge range through a wood (assuming the wood is only difficult and not very difficult), as you may not double the move when charging through terrain and the wood slows you down by half.
8" x 1 = 8". 8" / 2 = 4"

3) Yes, if they had, which would make it a tiny forest of about 2" width, which could not conceal the Waywatchers, and so the charge would be on them. If they fled, the KE could EitW charge the GGuard, assuming they had enough of their 4" charge left! :D

Festus

Da GoBBo
01-03-2008, 12:13
Yes, if they had, which would make it a tiny forest of about 2" width, which could not conceal the Waywatchers, and so the charge would be on them. If they fled, the KE could EitW charge the GGuard, assuming they had enough of their 4" charge left! :D

Aren't you mixing stuff up with 40K movement through wood? I thought movement through wood reduced your movement for the two inches of wood, taking up four inches of your movement, but it would still allow 4x2+2=10" chargerange.

juample
01-03-2008, 12:26
...as you may not double the move when charging through terrain...

I know you can`t march if you move trought difficult terrain, but i think there is no problem with charges; i think double their movement when charge, as always. I am searching for that but after reading the example on page 21 in the CHARGING section, i reafirm my posture: You can double movement even if you charge across difficult terrain.

Festus
01-03-2008, 12:27
Hi

Not as easy as it looks on first glance.

May I direct you here: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128432

In any case, the KE are hard pressed to even reach the GGuard. ;)

Assuming they manage to do so (which is what juample really asks), yes, they can EitW charge the Waywatchers as they encounter them, even if they did not see them at the time of the declaration. This is the beauty of EitW: Charging a target you didn't see at the time of your declaration.

Festus

edit: In my German version of the rulebook, it reads, that charging units reduce their charge move to half their regular charging speed and deduct the usual penalties for terrain.

T10
01-03-2008, 12:59
edit: In my German version of the rulebook, it reads, that charging units reduce their charge move to half their regular charging speed and deduct the usual penalties for terrain.

How odd. I can't see how taking that literally can play very well.

A Supid unit of Trolls will "charge" anything in its path with an effective charge move of 3 inches. If moving through terrain then halving the charge speed AND applying terain penalties would mean they move 3 inches x 0.5 (half charge move) x 05 (difficult terrain) = 0.75", less than the minimum distance between enemy units.

-T10

Festus
01-03-2008, 13:08
He, it really is a problem if the trolls do not see the trees and blunder against them - time and again :D

;)

OTHO, if Bret Knights may not march through a forest with their weapons stowed away and able to move out of the trees way, why are they allowed to do so with lances in charge position - and they will hook up with some stupid tree or other on the way :angel:

Festus

juample
01-03-2008, 14:16
Thank you so much Festus.

Now the metafisical part of the rule .
In the same way you are not allowed to declare a charge that oviously is out of range -as the FAQstates- (then you can argue about what is obvious and what not... :D), if the EK knight doesnt fail the impetuous test:

-It is allowed to delclare charge agaisnt GG voluntary to search the EITW with WW ?

-Anyone considers it unfair? What people think on this?


PS: I have read the wole thread about forest and movement. I have pretty clear this things in my mind,and not so much doubts; maybe i post some now (About bidimensional or unidimensionals units, marching, charging and double moving, about obstacles... etc.)

Festus
01-03-2008, 14:20
-It is allowed to delclare charge agaisnt GG voluntary to search the EITW with WW ?

-Anyone considers it unfair? What people think on this?
I'd say yes, go for it, nothing unfair there:
It is not unfair, especially as the Warhammer Rules do not have explicit hiding rules - you cannot hide, but you may be out of line of sight (consider spells, which can still target the Waywatchers). In WHFB, you are generally aware of any enemy, even if you cannot see it.

Festus

juample
01-03-2008, 14:41
The last one, in spanish translation of the rule EITW after the errata, there still is the part of the rule where says the original target has to flee.

I am not sure but think with the rules in english , original target flee reaction is not required any more to declare a new charge i am wrong??

PS Where the "Thanks" boton go?! :wtf:

Benigno (WE)
01-03-2008, 15:45
IMHO it is bloody unfair juample :p

But as you have all said, you can EITW the waywatchers if you can charge the glade guards. I don't remember the real situation the other day, but I think we can resume on this:

The KE can EITW the WW if, and only if, you can charge the GG. Am I right juample?

juample
01-03-2008, 15:57
IMHO it is bloody unfair juample :p

But as you have all said, you can EITW the waywatchers if you can charge the glade guards. I don't remember the real situation the other day, but I think we can resume on this:

The KE can EITW the WW if, and only if, you can charge the GG. Am I right juample?

Here comes a new Challenger :D.... Happy -and surprised- to read you Benigno, Welcome.

Yes, with out the GG unit no way to RITW WW.

PS: No, I think in our game, this situation was not happened, as long as you move WW out of the forest and then i charge the directly...

Oftopic. Are you going out tonight?:evilgrin: