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dil
18-04-2005, 17:58
Does anyone have any good tactics for wood elves vs brettonians. At first glance this looks like a hard one for wood elves to win!! I have a local semi final tournament coming up and don't like the look of this one ... this "tournament" is the first time I have played with wood elves!

Thanks in advance

The Phoenix
21-04-2005, 08:10
What sort of army are you using? A shooting heavy army is going to have more trouble than a combat oriented one. Post your list (or something resembling what you normally use if it changes) and I'll give you some advice.

-Phoenix

dil
21-04-2005, 13:35
Phoenix, thanks. This will be a 2150 game

Army I was thinking about at the moment is;

level 4 mage with acorn of ages
Level 2 mage
Level 2 mage
Hero on eagle with hail of doom arrow

3 units of glade riders (one with war banner)
(or 2 and 1 glade guard unit)

2 units of dryads
1 unit of war hawk riders (with the auto rally banner)
2 eagles

1 tree man

therat
21-04-2005, 14:28
How many glade riders per unit?

The Phoenix
21-04-2005, 16:58
Ok...

If that's the army you are using for sure, skip this section. If you're open to suggestions (just suggestions, you don't have to do any of this), there's a few things I'd chage.

Your hero on eagle isn't tooled to fight, which means after he uses the hail of doom arrow, he won't be doing much. What I normally do is don't bother with a combat hero at all and put the hail of doom arrow on a mage. Their balistic skill may be lower, but they're still Wood Elves, and the shots lost from the Hail of Doom more than make up for themselves with points saved. A mage with the Hail of Doom can still easily pick off a banshee, small unit of light, cav, etc. If you want to keep a character on an eagle, put the mage with the arrow on it. He can still hinder movement and be a general neucence, with little danger of being picked off (or at least not much more danger than your hero with no weapons would be). Consider spending the points you save here on a single dispell scroll (just in case) and possibly some command upgrades for your riders, or to flesh out the dryads if they're too small.

Since you already have 2 eagles (and possibly a character on another eagle) you don't need warhawk riders. For how big their bases are it's hard to get a decent number in combat, great eagles have far more killing potential and are a fair bit beefier. It's also easier to hide 1 eagle than a unit of warhawks. If you do decide to drop the warhawks, I'd recomend wardancers. They have some wonderful dances, especialy the one that negates ranks (something wood elves have trouble doing).

Generally dryads should be in units of ~8, glade riders in units of ~5, always with a standard bearer, get full command if you have the points. If you do get warhawk riders, get the minimum unit size, you want the unit to be small enough to hide easily, and since they'll be used to hinder movement and pick off warmachines, lone characters, etc, you don't need a wole fleet of them.


And now what you've been waiting for:

TACTICS: :cool:

Brets are fast, Wood Elves are faster, never forget this. Brets have a higher movement value, yes, but wood elves can turn without penalty and your skirmishers can always move at double pace, are unhindered by difficult terrain etc.

What this means is you should never have to get charged unless you want to, or at least know it's going to happen. You have to think a bit ahead, and use terrain to your advantage, but it should't be too hard to avoid charge arcs.

Drop the Acorn on the biggest, ugliest unit your opponent has. Try to pick something that's near other units though, so if the acorn scatters, it might still hit something. You've now tied up an expensive unit for a few turns, and have a forest perfect for casting master of wood. If the acorn fails, no biggy, just play that much harder.

Send your great eagles and anything else that flys to the back of your enemies lines. Take out warmachines, small units of skirmishers, hiding mages, etc. Going up against warmachines (shouldn't be a big problem here, but the advice still stands) it's best to send the eagles as a team, that way if one gets picked off, the other can still make it.

Use magic to pick things off from the least armor, on up. You want ot actually kill things, not spend your whole turn knocking out one big scary grail knight, who's in a unit big enough that his death doesn't matter.

The one exception here might be lone characters, even knights. They're worth killing, very, very much so.

Once your flyers have dealt with anything that might start picking off your light cav and skirmishers, position them just behind your enemies units (but completely out of sight) Now your opponent can't march and with your elven steed and skirmishers... you're not only able to move in more directions, you can win a straight out drag race.

Knights have armor... this is a problem. You wont' be able to kill them, so you have to combat res them to death. Big knight units have to be made smaller. Slow them down with lady of the lake and try to kill as many as you can with magic. Speaking of which, if there aren't many shooters in his army the ONLY spell you should take a 1 on is rain lord. Everything else is useful in one way or anotehr and you don't want to get stuck with rain lord because you already took a 1 with some other spell.

Once knight units are a manageable size, gang up on them

Characters tend to be in the front, you get bonuses for being in the flank and rear, therefore NEVER attack the front of a unit unless you have to. (unless you're using a treeman and trying to use the special attack to knock out a character. This isn't reliable and I don't recomend it as a general tactic, but there are times when it's either worth the risk or you have no other choice.)

The following units negate ranks:

glade riders (if you have 3)
treeman
wardancers (for one turn at least)

What you want to try to do is get a unit of dryads and one of the above units in on each unit. Pick the high strength dryad attack, and kill as many knights as you can. It wont' be many thanks to their armor, but with a unit of 8 dryads and then another 8-9 wardancers, or a unit of 4-5 riders, you'll probably have unit strength. Your banners will cancle, you're starting at +3 (flank and rear) and they don't get ranks, you should win. Chase them down, run them over. Easy :p

Try ot make sure that if you persue, you're not going to get charged by something else. And if you are... persue only with your weakest unit, leaving the other units in the combat to make a countercharge.

If anything I've said is unclear (or sounds downright foolish, impossible or oversimplified) just say so and I'll try to explain what I mean. :)

-The Phoenix
Defender of Loren

Sariel
21-04-2005, 17:30
A few things...

1) Wow but that's a really friendly list. Go you!

2) Where are your mages going to be hiding? You really don't want them wandering around all by themselves - Brets have excellent character hunters, and access to lots of cheap shooting.

3) Isolate and destroy - you should have at least 2 extra pieces of woods on the table (your bonus terrain+the Acorn). Make use of tree-singing to break up his line. Most Bret armies rely on their Knights going in boot-to-boot over rolling green fields. Split them up, and use your Eagles/Warhawks to play bait-and-flee, while Mr. Treeman and the Dryads gang up.

4) I honestly would'nt count too much on magic, not with all those 2+ armour saves. Take the mages, by all means, but don't get too attached to the Lore of Life.

5) That hero on an eagle ... um.. why? The last thing you want to do is to have him getting into combat - Peasant Yeomen have a good chance taking him out, never mind Bret Knights/characters.... might want to use the points to get some basic archers or a unit of Wardancers...

6) The Treeman is pretty much the only heavy-hitting unit you have. A great flanker, and at the same time, don't be afraid to let him wander out to take a charge full-on every once in a while. Just about everything in a Bret army would need 4s or higher to wound him. Even better if you get the charge, obviously.. does'nt matter if its a rear, flank or front....

The Phoenix
21-04-2005, 17:47
4) I honestly would'nt count too much on magic, not with all those 2+ armour saves. Take the mages, by all means, but don't get too attached to the Lore of Life.Master of Wood and Master of Stone (under the revised lores) both kill an average of 1.5 T3 armor save 2+ models per use. That may not be much on it's own, but if you pick on a single unit, you can mess it up pretty bad.

Master of Wood shoots up to 3 and Master of Stone does between 2 and 2.5 if your target is in a wood / hill respectively.

Of course, Father of Thorn only averages a half a model, so don't bother using that one a 2+ save unit :p

-The Phoenix
Defender of Loren

dil
21-04-2005, 18:03
Thanks guys;

The list doesn't have all the magic items ... just the major game impacting ones.

The warhawk riders were there for either tempting/forcing charges (hence auto rally banner) so I can counter strike, or to try and have something to counter the inevitable pegasus knights ... views on this??

I will drop the hero on the eagle.

Maybe this will leave me enough points for another treeman ... the extra will have yet another moving woods coming off each round + more hitting / terror etc ... thoughts?

I will get master mage on an eagle, and the others on horse back ... but I am worried about character hunting with pegasus knights and skimishing units of archers ... I bet he will take these against WE's!

The Phoenix
21-04-2005, 18:50
The list doesn't have all the magic items ... just the major game impacting ones.EVERY item affects the game ;)
The warhawk riders were there for either tempting/forcing charges (hence auto rally banner) so I can counter strike, or to try and have something to counter the inevitable pegasus knights ... views on this??Warhawks won't kill pegasus knights. Just not going to happen. I'd use magic. Lots of it.
Maybe this will leave me enough points for another treeman ... the extra will have yet another moving woods coming off each round + more hitting / terror etc ... thoughts?Yeah, if your opponent is tooling against you, you might as well return the favor, treemen cause terror, drads cause fear and both pack a wallop. I'd stock up on both.
I will get master mage on an eagle, and the others on horse back ... but I am worried about character hunting with pegasus knights and skimishing units of archers ... I bet he will take these against WE's!If you're worried about him going character hunting, I'd put your mages on foot and stick 'em in a forest. His stuff wont' be able to go in after you.

If your opponent is going to tool agaginst you specifically, then you could always, um... give him something he wont expect. Like a very "normal" combat army, with lots of hard hitters. So, blocks of glade guard, dryads, treemen, magic. That should be enough to throw a wrench into whatever he has planned.

-The Phoenix
Defender of Loren

Neknoh
21-04-2005, 19:02
I am not a Wood Elf player, but I do know some things:

As said, the Haild of Doom Arrow will do much better on a Mage to use for his own protection.

Now, I have this vague memory of a Hunting Spear that is thrown 18" or something like that, and, if I recall correctly, it acts like a Bolt Thrower... doesn't that mean that this is the perfect item to go Lance hunting with?

Fly behind their lines and jam it through the back of a Knight farthest back in a Lance formation.

Forgotmytea
21-04-2005, 19:12
Maybe this will leave me enough points for another treeman ... the extra will have yet another moving woods coming off each round + more hitting / terror etc ... thoughts?

YES! Go for another treeman if you can affoard him. Treemen are damn hard to kill, have an amazing strength and put the fear of the lady/Grimnir into dwarfs, brets and other heavily armoured troops. Apart from that, just pretty much what everyone else has said... :rolleyes:

Sariel
23-04-2005, 02:08
Master of Wood and Master of Stone (under the revised lores) both kill an average of 1.5 T3 armor save 2+ models per use. That may not be much on it's own, but if you pick on a single unit, you can mess it up pretty bad.

Master of Wood shoots up to 3 and Master of Stone does between 2 and 2.5 if your target is in a wood / hill respectively.

Of course, Father of Thorn only averages a half a model, so don't bother using that one a 2+ save unit :p

-The Phoenix
Defender of Loren

True - The revised Lore of Life is truly nifty. Trouble is...

1) You'll have the Blessing to contend with.

2) Any worthwhile unit will (probably) have a Damsel to boost its MR.

3) Sort of ties into (2) - you still have to cast the spells, and with 10 power dice, you should be getting off 1.5 spells a turn.

4) Wood Elves don't have access to Seer, so there's no guarantee that you'll be getting Wood/Stone/Thorn (though, imho, Howler Wind and Mistress of Marsh would do more to mess up a Bret player's plans than the damage spells).

Guess my point is.. you really don't want to rely on magic. Not with damage spells against Brets. And certainly not when you have Wardancers, Dryads and Treemen!

GateSeven
23-04-2005, 12:33
take the light cavalry army, with arrows! Glade riders with arrows can skirt around the big blocks of bret kinghts, and weaken them, before the bigger units with spears or whatever go in and finish them off,

also - take a forest dragon ;)