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WhiteKnight
01-03-2008, 01:48
I've been getting my HE butt whooped by two skaven players. One with ratling guns, mobs, and a warp lightning cannon and warlocks, then the other with no shooting and just plague monks, clan rats, rat ogres, and rat swarms.

I used about three different lists against them and I always seem to fail. I usually take 2-3 bolt throwers, 10 archers, 2-3 mages, and other shooting like shadow warriors and sea guard. I really need help because I want to show that I can hang with these veteran players and skaven hordes.

Shamfrit
01-03-2008, 01:56
Hi there White Knight, I'm more than willing to help, as at the same time I'm having trouble beating High Elf lists with my Skaven, so would you mind posting your main list, and then we can go from there?

WhiteKnight
01-03-2008, 02:07
Alright, here's my main anti-skaven list.

Archmage - lv 4, book of hoeth = 360
Mage-lv 2, seerstaff, dispel scroll = 185
Mage- lv 2, dispel scroll, jewel of the dusk = 170
Noble - Great Eagle, Heavy Armour, Reaver Bow = 179

Archers - 10 = 110
Sea Guard - 15, full command, shields, lion standard = 240
Sea Guard - 15, full command, shields, banner of arcane protection = 245

Shadow Warriors - 6 = 96

Ellyrion Reavers - 5, spear, bow = 105
Ellyrion Reavers - 5, spear, bow = 105

Repeater Bolt Throwers - 2 = 200

LKHERO
01-03-2008, 02:32
High Magic, Flames of the Phoenix on his Warlock Engineers or Grey Seer's unit. Focus fire and cause panic with Bolt Throwers.

Drop a Lv2, you don't need that many. Sea Guard are too expensive. Take 2 20x Spears, one with Lion Standard and another with a BSB. Dragon Princes or Lion Chariots destroy Skaven pretty easily.

Did I mention more RBT?

fubukii
01-03-2008, 03:05
hmm i will be welling to lend a hand, as i have both a 7-8k skaven army and a 3-4k high elf force.

THe rats normally gain a upper hand vs the elves because they are so numerous while the high elves are more elite thus meaning he probably has 3 units to your one. One thing i have noticed is that you dont really include any hammer troops in your list, most of your troops are only good in a head on front to front fight (minus the fast cav which make great flankers). Id suggest you find a way to get in some elite infantry like white lions maybe some dragon princes for a little hitting power.

Also u spend alot of points in characters, i may suggest taking more units. A good tactic vs rats is to gun everything at their generals unit and then their ld drops Big time.

superduperkoopatrooper
01-03-2008, 20:39
I cannot believe your list, it is just untrue how puny your force is. You've got 64 models all with T3 and barely any armour, next to no static combat res, what are you doing?

Your only means of defeating things seems to be magic and shooting but without ANY cc stuff you'll rely on wiping out the enemy with these ranged attacks. Against a hoard like skaven this isn't going to happen. HE shooting in particular is only good in support. You'll never kill a significant number of rats with Str3 bows alone and if you're up against plague monks they won't run away in panic. You just need enough to deal with weapons teams and the like, no more though.

Ever considered a star dragon? Terror would be tremendously useful and once placed on a flank the rats will HAVE to face it as it will destroy units if it charges from the sides. Even a frontal charge with these beasts is quite likely to win combats against cheap infantry.

Von Wibble
01-03-2008, 20:55
General pointers

1) Skaven magic is scary. Make sure your defense is adequate. I personally would have annulian crystal, power stone and scroll on the archmage. But then again I usually have a L1 prince, 2 L2s and a commander anyway...

2) fubukii is right - white lions are very good against skaven. They have a respectable save against missile fire (unlike swordmasters) and can really inflict pain on many units. Phoenix guard may also be good - their ward plus armour is slightly better than a 3+ save vs shooting which is good for the price.

3) Against any army a unit of 5 dragon princes is very useful. 10 Ws5 S5 attacks potentially backed up by a tiranoc chariot will see off most units - a combo costing relatively little.

4) Repeater bolt throwers - ignore lkhero. They are not very good for the points - you are better off with an extra unit of spears. Skaven ranks are better thinned in combat or with magic, and the rest of the troops are skirmishers and so only take small casualties from missile fire. Average bolt thrower gets 4 hits = 3 casualties. A unit of 40 clanrats needs 10 losses for a panic check taken at Ld 9. Plague monks don't panic and lose all of 2 models per turn. Archers do better against ratling guns and rat swarms.

5) Sea Guard units aren't achieving much. They are too small to stand up in combat and too expensive as missile troops. Sea Guard have their uses but I feel in larger games where you can still field enough units not to be outflanked.

6) What are the shadow warriors in the list for? Presumably they have a role I'm not seeing, as you have 2 x reavers for hunting. A tiranoc chariot is a better investment (or lion if you have the points - I prefer the tiranoc charge distance bearing in mind how likely skaven are to flee but the lion chariot will fare better alone)

7) Against the combat army go with lots of spears and back them up with the dragon princes, white lions, chariots. ASF should allow you to dictate terms of combats, whilst any of your magic and shooting should be targeting troops threatening outmanouvre.

8) Against the magic army LKHeros tactics (apart from rbt fixation) are sound.

9) Ultimately remember high elves strength is that they can focus an attack at one point in the battlefield very well. If this point is well chosen and a breakthrough is achieved it is difficult for an opponent to come back at you.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
01-03-2008, 20:58
You need a lot less points spent on characters.
You should use the three elites on foot. Use magic to keep them alive while they cut those vermin into shreds. Give the phoenix guard a banner of sorcery and give them a bsb with the banner of screw you (battle banner) Take 15 white lions and 15 swordmasters. I would give the white lions command and a gem of courage. Since skaven are so cheap i deem shooting a waste of points.If you want cavalry take dragon princes they will do well. Shadow warriors are the anti tank to enemy wizards/ maybe ratling guns.For core take 2 units of spearmen or 1 spearmen one seaguard. Against the non shooty skaven guy take a dragon mage they are fun to play with:) Put korhil in one of the units to make them stubborn...:)

theunwantedbeing
01-03-2008, 21:04
More men helps.
As does not taking the book of hoeth, seeing as its really very pointlessly expensive.
Take lots of bound spells, 4 level 2 mages will work better.
More shooting as well, you need about 3 units to remove the ratling guns he'll have to use on you.
When those are gone, or if they are simply unavailable to be shot at you need at least 30 shots to really be doing any noteworthy damage to his units.(expect to kill maybe 7-8 tops with that, enough for a panic test and to strip a full rank off him).

Some dragon princes might be worth having.
150pts for 5 of them, 10st5 attacks on the cahrge, plus 5 st3 attacks....you can shred a fully ranked unit with that..head on without you taking any command.

At the moment he'll outnumber you and be able to easily stop any spells you dont get with irresistable force, as well as outshoot you.

W0lf
01-03-2008, 21:09
At the moment he'll outnumber you and be able to easily stop any spells you dont get with irresistable force, as well as outshoot you.

its painfully true.

try cutting down your characters. losing a mage and the reavers and the sea guard.

why take reavers at their points when you can have dragon princes at slightly higher cost who can actually do stuff?

105 pts to dance in a circle or just get magic missiled/shot to death is such a waste.