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explodingseashells
01-03-2008, 05:41
If all the machines in the 40k world have a machine spirit, and they have to be treated with the most high-held respect, then what happens to the machine spirit when the machine is inhabited by a daemon?

da big mek
01-03-2008, 05:47
according to the second grey knights book the daemon corrupts the machine spirit turning into a daemon/machine spirit hybrid
(as with the titan towards the end)

Mechanicus
01-03-2008, 07:29
Well, it's the same as possession if you believe machine spirits to exist in a similar fashion as souls - the daemon first has to subdue the machine spirit and get it to give in, which would take time considering that machine spirits seem to be modelled after fierce animals, which might not give up easily. Once it has been subdued, the machine spirit could be expelled from the machine or just imprisoned and taunted eternally.

What happens in Dark Adeptus, the second Grey Knights book, is questionable to say the least. We don't actually know what happens, but Alaric believes that the daemon 'forgot' it was a daemon, and ended up believing it was the intelligence of the STC until it was reminded. Still - we don't really know if that's true.

Vaulkhar
01-03-2008, 09:21
Think of it as the gribbly equivalent of a computer virus. Bizarre behaviour, weird antics and eventually the hull mutates but not before the vehicle's brain acquires some...unusual..images and displays them all over the command network.

iamkion132
01-03-2008, 19:11
Think of it as the gribbly equivalent of a computer virus. Bizarre behaviour, weird antics and eventually the hull mutates but not before the vehicle's brain acquires some...unusual..images and displays them all over the command network.

So basically it installs Windows Vista.

Vaulkhar
01-03-2008, 19:37
If you're lucky. The really nasty daemons prefer Windows ME or OS/2 Warp...

The_Patriot
01-03-2008, 19:44
If you're lucky. The really nasty daemons prefer Windows ME or OS/2 Warp...

OS/2 Warp was authored by the God-Emperor of Man. I believe you mean Crap OS err Mac OS.

Wolf Scout Ewan
01-03-2008, 19:54
"A machine spirit" is a rudimentary artificial intelligence or a preprogrammed set of commands or reactions to situations.

Closest thing we have to this is a FoF TaDS system in an Apache Longbow. But with actual control of fire control.

A machine spirit cannot "think" or question it just operates within its rather limited protocols.

The machine spirits that inhabit all machines are not real, that is to say, they are just a primitive superstition.

Mechanicus
01-03-2008, 20:31
"A machine spirit" is a rudimentary artificial intelligence or a preprogrammed set of commands or reactions to situations.

Closest thing we have to this is a FoF TaDS system in an Apache Longbow. But with actual control of fire control.

A machine spirit cannot "think" or question it just operates within its rather limited protocols.

The machine spirits that inhabit all machines are not real, that is to say, they are just a primitive superstition.An assumption, I'm afraid. Nothing that I know says they don't exist in the form of spirits possibly in addition to a primitive computer form. Not only that, but there is circumstantial evidence (cf. Execution Hour, Mettle (Damnation Crusade #0) to name two prominent examples) to believe they do exist.

Personally, I don't find it much more of a stretch in a universe of Gods, daemons and psychic powers.

I have more thoughts on machine spirits, but I won't clutter up the thread with them - they're here (http://forum.blpublishing.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=4683&PID=92344#92344) if anyone wants to read them.

Wolf Scout Ewan
02-03-2008, 12:59
Ok. I suppose it depends on the machine. A Titan or a Space Marine Dreadnought have controlling systems based around computers. They need them to help control the life support and power generation systems.

Warhound titans have a central system that is said to be likened to that of a giant predator. In my humble opinon this could be a personality engram of an animal grafted into the programs controlling the more complicated systems. Its not a ghost or AI but a simple mechanism for maintaining control of the system in the overall machine... like balance. Maybe like a black box with more control.

Just been reading that thread you posted. It seems we agree. Its an interesting subject considering everyone will read the information with different interpretations!

What also fascinates me is the insistance on ritual during maintainance of machines. Lighting of incense and prayers seem like pointless superstition but included in the rituals are things like health and safety routines, such as, earthing oneself, disconnecting power sources and the like.

explodingseashells
02-03-2008, 15:01
all the fluff ive read indicates to me that in fact they are some sort of spirit. the fluff also suggests that these machines spirits exist in all machines, from a thunderhawk gunship to a space marines bolter/glove whatevs. Is there any fluff that would indicate they are actually spirits of the machine and not ai/virus/windows?

Promethius
02-03-2008, 15:30
According to the BFG 13th crusade fluff, ships at least get imbued with a soul of sorts as a side-effect of warp travel and the hopes/aspirations of it's crew; from what I understand the crew's collective ideas about the ship come to have some kind of echo in reality, so that a particularly renowned ship may well have characteristics which reflect it's reputation. I don't see why the same thing couldn't be seen on a lesser scale for ground based machines, which although they don't regularly traverse warp space except when being transported are in a very psychically-saturated galaxy and over the hundreds of years of service they undergo could well obtain a rudimentary psychic presence of their own. Probably not enough to make much of a difference most of the time, but when combined with the AI may result in the machine having a certain level of individuality.

Mechanicus
02-03-2008, 17:17
Ok. I suppose it depends on the machine. A Titan or a Space Marine Dreadnought have controlling systems based around computers. They need them to help control the life support and power generation systems.

Warhound titans have a central system that is said to be likened to that of a giant predator. In my humble opinon this could be a personality engram of an animal grafted into the programs controlling the more complicated systems. Its not a ghost or AI but a simple mechanism for maintaining control of the system in the overall machine... like balance. Maybe like a black box with more control.Quite possibly.

Just been reading that thread you posted. It seems we agree. Its an interesting subject considering everyone will read the information with different interpretations!It is an interesting subject - and one which we have few answers for; perhaps fortunately.

What also fascinates me is the insistance on ritual during maintainance of machines. Lighting of incense and prayers seem like pointless superstition but included in the rituals are things like health and safety routines, such as, earthing oneself, disconnecting power sources and the like.Rote learning works. ;) That and it just may aid machine spirits. Who knows?

Wraith
02-03-2008, 18:09
According to the BFG 13th crusade fluff, ships at least get imbued with a soul of sorts as a side-effect of warp travel and the hopes/aspirations of it's crew; from what I understand the crew's collective ideas about the ship come to have some kind of echo in reality, so that a particularly renowned ship may well have characteristics which reflect it's reputation. I don't see why the same thing couldn't be seen on a lesser scale for ground based machines, which although they don't regularly traverse warp space except when being transported are in a very psychically-saturated galaxy and over the hundreds of years of service they undergo could well obtain a rudimentary psychic presence of their own. Probably not enough to make much of a difference most of the time, but when combined with the AI may result in the machine having a certain level of individuality.

THis is exactly how I view the situation.

In addition just as compared to a human a plant has zero cognitice ability -- no brain -- it still has a reflection in the warp however small. The same comparison can be drawn between a titan with significant artifical cognitive ability compared to a boltgun which has none...

Moral Wiz
02-03-2008, 18:13
According to the BFG 13th crusade Fluff, ships at least get imbued with a soul of sorts as a side-effect of warp travel and the hopes/aspirations of it's crew; from what I understand the crew's collective ideas about the ship come to have some kind of echo in reality, so that a particularly renowned ship may well have characteristics which reflect it's reputation. I don't see why the same thing couldn't be seen on a lesser scale for ground based machines, which although they don't regularly traverse warp space except when being transported are in a very psychically-saturated galaxy and over the hundreds of years of service they undergo could well obtain a rudimentary psychic presence of their own. Probably not enough to make much of a difference most of the time, but when combined with the AI may result in the machine having a certain level of individuality.

AI = Abominable intelligence. :p The AdMech don't like it, and it isn't used (Techno Heresy). I agree with the idea of the machine spirit occasionally becoming "real" but keep in mind, it will always need men to pilot things.

And personally, I think most ground vehicles get blown up too often to develop that. The only ones who do (and are noted as such) are the Titans. But I agree in principle that it's possible.

Champion of the Emperor
02-03-2008, 20:32
do dreadnoughts even have a machine spirit? afterall, they are controlled by a 3/4 dead marine

Mechanicus
02-03-2008, 21:06
According to the Mechanicus, every machine does.

GodofWarTx
03-03-2008, 02:53
"A machine spirit" is a rudimentary artificial intelligence or a preprogrammed set of commands or reactions to situations.

Closest thing we have to this is a FoF TaDS system in an Apache Longbow. But with actual control of fire control.

A machine spirit cannot "think" or question it just operates within its rather limited protocols.

The machine spirits that inhabit all machines are not real, that is to say, they are just a primitive superstition.


I think it depends on the machine spirit. I gather systems that are in like the Land Raider, the titans, and starships are probably very cerebral in thought processes. As stated, they each seem to have some sort of avatar, and war machines choose the form of an animal. I see this as continual protection of a too human mindset, which is capable of forming the "wrong" kinds of questions, the kind that leads to corruption, like what was seen with mankinds former AI, and im sure the Tau will encounter the same problems. Without a soul or some sort of protection, seems AI is incredibly vulnerable to that kind of corruption.

Ekranoplan
03-03-2008, 03:33
I have always subscribed to the idea that Machine Spirits is just a superstition. It is really just rudimentary AI.

That being said, deamons can have a corrupting influence on anything, so why not a computer program? A deamon might not understand anything about computer science, but it can twist and change computer at will untill it gets the desired effect.