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Lord Gore
02-03-2008, 10:43
After reading a post on another part of this forum it got me thinking, after the thousands of years since the Heresy how do Chaos Marines recruit to replace their casualties? I know that pre-heresy the Chapters were legions but after thousands of years of battle their numbers would have dwindled. Do they recruit in a way similar to Loyalist marines, and if so do they follow the augmentation by use of geneseed albeit in a corrupted form?

Sepharine
02-03-2008, 10:55
As far as I know they mostly get their reinforcement from the new loyalists that turn to chaos at one point or another. Theres also surgeons like Fabius Bile that appearantly can create space marines, but I would imagine that their selection of proper geneseed is somewhat low.

Wraith
02-03-2008, 11:03
Different legions and warbands would go about it in different ways...

Also there is a problem with cult marines in that for example say you're an Emperor's Child Marine and want to recruit you could do so with the geneseed of fallen warriors but without Fabius Bile are you able to find someone capable of connecting up the sensory neurons of the candidates brain to their pleasure centres? Can you find someone to fit all those fancy noise producing technology?

Same with creating new marines with the thousands suns gene seed (from the still biological sorcerers) -- they wouldn't be rubric marines. If we look at the worldeaters you could use their gene-seed but the new marine wouldn't have the arcane cranial implants to make them Berzerkers. I'm not even certain if the Deathguard's progneoid glands are even viable...

The other unaligned legions are more likely to have more organised recruiting drives without suffering the problems above.

Recruiting from the human populations of daemon worlds, or just 'along the way' on some crusade are all viable options. Certainly if their now Daemon Primarch is still around he'll have his own world with likely populations of indentured slave humans from which they may recruit.

Sepharine
02-03-2008, 13:49
In a response to Wraith;

Codex: CSM actually states that the transformation from regular (chaos) marine to either noise marine and Berserker (not sure on plague marines) has mostly to do with surgical intervention, which is done by a multitude of surgeons, not just the just the famous Fabius Bile. It states that legions such as Black Legion have multiple of these.

That being said, as far as I know, the actual footslogger 1k sons seem to be a finite marine species, as far as I know there are no ways to recreate the whole dust armor thing.

Moral Wiz
02-03-2008, 13:57
Hmm.... Are these Surgeons a group, or just individuals? Any common factors? Where do they get their knowledge?

Vaulkhar
02-03-2008, 14:30
Probably individuals (such is the way of Chaos, with every being for itself) although I imagine they might take apprentices and such if needed.

As far as Rubric Marines go, it seems from the Space Wolf novels that there is a method by which 'dead' Marines can be reconstituted. Let's face it, all you need is a decent suit of armour and a way of dagging the spirit from the warp and into the suit.

explodingseashells
02-03-2008, 14:57
SPOILER---****

in the final book in the ultramarines omnibus it talks about the iron warriors actually creating new space marines by the power of an enslaved blood thirster on medrengard.

Sephtar II
02-03-2008, 15:06
yup the above is taken from the excelant book 'Storm of Iron' by Graham McNeill which I beleive is about to be re-released. In that the iron warriors attack a fortress world under orders from Abbadon as its a huge Geneseed production facility and at the end get there hands on a couple of chapters worth of geneseed.

scratchbuilt
02-03-2008, 16:11
It's not like ordinary marines. Most of Chaos is left vague on purpouse. But when you are reasonably high up the hierarchy of chaos (as csm legions are) you do not die as easily as a mortal. There's a big fluff contradiction as well, in that according to many sources csm legions are elite, and for one of them to fall in battle is a rare event. But of course every other source of fluff has the heroes killing csm legion left and right.
Every fluff I've read though has the legion csm being the original traitors, not new recruits, incredibly old, warped by chaos, having killed countless loyalist marines. Which seems a lot cooler than them being new recruits.

They are barely real anymore, as much stuff of chaos as creatures of the real world.
Of course I'm biased :cheese: :D

Edit; the new novels are murdering the old fluff :_(

Anyway thats what I tell myself, the new csm codex is for the upstart pretender csm, still recruiting. In contrast to the real legions, with their old names unchanged, 'emperor's chosen' etc. That wouldn't make as much sense if they where taking in new recruits.

Richter Kless
02-03-2008, 18:15
Most Marine nowadays don't go all the way back to the heresy.
I dare to say that only the Lords, Daemon Princes, Sorcerors and Obliterators are the grizzled 10000 year old veterans. The rank and file Chaos Marines are simply new recruits, clones or whatever.

One must also remeber that the Traitor legions don't seem to care that much about geneseed anymore. Novels likes 'Storm of Iron' and the new Chaos Marine codex indicate that they will take any geneseed they can get their hands on. So a lot of Black Legionairess probably don't even have Horus' geneseed. And there is probably some 'The Cleaved' and 'Lords of Decay' geneseed in the Death Guard pool aswell.

One the cult troops.
With the exception of the Rubic Marines, it's not that hard to create new cult troops.
A quote out of the new codex:
'After the World Eaters Legion disintegrated during the fighting on Skalathrax, most Berzerkers formed seperate warbands and many bastardised practices of lobotomisation have spread to other Chaos Space Marine forces with them. Abaddon and his Black Legion in particular have recruited a number of highly-skilled Berzerker-Surgeons to their cause,...' (page 36 of the english Chaos Marines codex)
This quote clearly indicates that the means to produce new Berzerkers is not lost.

Onto the Plague Marines:
'Though many other Space Marines have dedicated themselves to Nurgle since the Horus Heresy, few ever achieve the ranks of the Plague Marines. Those who truly wish to join this most elite of foetid cadres swear loyalty to the Death Guard and their Primarch Mortarion. Only then will Nurgle bestow upon them the corrupting ague that created the Plague Marines.
Outside of the Death Guard, a favouted few Sorcerors of Nurgle know the secrets of the Plague Marines, and Abaddon of the Black Legion has won most of these foetid spellcasters to his cause. For many favours and service, these blight-carriers will bestow the gift of Plague Marinehood to the worthy who swear loyalty to Nurgle and to the Black Legion.' (page 38 of the English Chaos Marine codex)
This shows that new Plague Marines can be created and it shows that the Black Legion takes new recruits.

Onto the Noise Marines:
'Bile aided the Emeperor's Children as they slipped further into the embrace of Slaanesh, altering their senses even further, connecting their pleasure centres more directly to their nervous systems so that any stimulus bring they unholy joy.' (page 52 of the Chaos Marine codex)
This quote ain't such a strong evidence as the previous ones. This one seems to indicate that only Bile (and probably some of his confidants) know the secrets to becoming a true Noise Marines. So new ones can produces, but at a slower rate than the other cult troops.

The Rubic Marines cannot be created anymore, but given the fact that there are only a thousand of them, they must have some kind of way to repair the casualties, or else the Legion would have ceased to exist by now.

The recruiting proces of each Legion as I see it.
Thousand Sons: I absolutely have no idea. They probably take fallen Librarians into their ranks and I am sure that the Sorcerors, given their almost unlimited knowledge, have some means to use the geneseed of killed Sorcerors.

World Eaters: they aren't exactly a legion anymore, so there really is not point in trying to become a World Eater. My first post has shown that they can create new Berzerkers, but why would a newcomer want to wear the heraldry of a legion that no longer exists?

Emperors Children: like the World Eaters, the Emperors Children has scattered into different warbands. I don't really know if they would except newcomers among their ranks, given their whole obsession with perfection. But an interesting note is that the renegade Chapter, called 'The Flawless Host' (page 20), might have some Emperors Children geneseed in their pool. This could mean that they either:
a) have Emperors Children among their ranks.
b) have stolen Emperors Children geneseed.
c) have traded it with the Emperors Chidren (Bile could be involved here).

Death Guard: my second quote has shown that the Death Guard will take newcomers and they still have the means to create new Plague Marines. So these guys don't have any problems with finding new members.

Black Legion: they'll take anyone, anywhere, anytime. Their geneseed pool must be a complete mess by now, with members of other Legions and Renegade Chapters joining their ranks.

Night Lords: I really, really don't know anything about this legion.

Iron Warriors: 'Storm of Iron' has shown that the Iron Warriors know how to harvest and reuse geneseed. They just stuff into aspirants and hope a few survive the horrible process. The book also suggests that origin of the geneseed is of little concern to them.

Word Bearers: like the Night Lords, I know little of this legion. But the new codex gives us a new Renegade Chapter, called 'The Sanctified', which seems to have strong ties to the Word Bearers. (page 21 for those wondering)

Alpha Legion: not a fricking clue.


So it seems that most Legions have means to replenish their ranks and I personally doubt there are a lot of Heresy Era Marines left in the legions.

Baaltharus
02-03-2008, 20:15
SPOILER---****

in the final book in the ultramarines omnibus it talks about the iron warriors actually creating new space marines by the power of an enslaved blood thirster on medrengard.

No, that wasn't the point of the bound Blood Thirster at all.

It should be noted that first and foremost the traitor legions (when compared to loyalist chapters) struggle to obtain replacement marines. There are two main reason for this, the first being that their own geneseed is often corrupted/mutated and unusable for creating a new marine with. The second is that CSM will often lack the know how and facilities needed to create new CSM.

The traitor legions try and get around these problems by stealing geneseed from loyalists and other traitor legions where possible (see Storm of Iron). Fabius bile will also has the ability to clone geneseed to a limited extent but also asks alot in return.

Otherwise the implantation and training procedures would likely to a debased, more brutal form of what could be seen in a loyalist chapter. I'd also imagine that success ratings would be considerably lower and mortality levels ridiculously high (only the strong may live to serve chaos after all).

Champion of the Emperor
02-03-2008, 20:24
theres always the possibility of chapters falling to chaos and joining a legion, and in Dead Sky BLack sun, dont the iron warriors get there marines from daemonculba or something like that?

RevenantX
02-03-2008, 20:40
Probably Craigslist. I mean, where else will you find such a wretched hive of scum and villany than the interwebz?

DantesInferno
02-03-2008, 20:49
Otherwise the implantation and training procedures would likely to a debased, more brutal form of what could be seen in a loyalist chapter. I'd also imagine that success ratings would be considerably lower and mortality levels ridiculously high (only the strong may live to serve chaos after all).

Indeed, Fabius Bile's Heroes and Villains article suggests that he's deliberately trying to raise mortality levels among new Chaos Marine recruits...

DapperAnarchist
02-03-2008, 21:26
How about they do it the same way as the Loyalists? They have their own geneseed, corrupted it may be, and Chaos worshipping tribes will be as tough if not tougher than the tribes from which the Space Marines recruit. Also, there's various references to stealing geneseed from dead loyalists, partly for sacrifice - thats how the Iron Warriors Primarch became a Daemon Prince, but presumably some gets used for making new CSMs.

Contemno Mortis
02-03-2008, 22:01
Alpha Legion: not a fricking clue.


So it seems that most Legions have means to replenish their ranks and I personally doubt there are a lot of Heresy Era Marines left in the legions.

Ooo, in the WD article on these blokes it suggested (from an ingame, imperial perspective) that the Alpha Legion may have a base inside the Imperium where they bring aspiring chaos marines to be properly marineified using stolen imperial gear...

Iracundus
02-03-2008, 22:15
The 2nd ed. Chaos Codex mentions that the Chaos Marines still recruit from the masses of slave warriors that battle each other in the Eye of Terror and from the heretics that escape the Imperium and find their way into the Eye. The Codex says their implantation and methods are debased and savage, ensuring only the most brutal and hardy of recruits survive the process.

So just like the Chaos gods themselves, the Legions pick those aspirants that stand out from the masses, put them through many brutal tests leaving only the most remarkable ones to survive to get promoted.

The_Patriot
02-03-2008, 22:15
Probably Craigslist. I mean, where else will you find such a wretched hive of scum and villany than the interwebz?

Naw monster.com is where they get them from or a temp service. :D

Archangel_Ruined
02-03-2008, 22:37
Deserters are the main source of new recruits, and a major source of new equipment and armour. I'm not sure if all the chaos legions maintain the neccesaries to create new marines from humans, but since whole chapters defected and created new home worlds it makes sense that some do, but that would be for the legions, not warbands of traitors. The legions are pretty much on the same standing as loyalists, with homeworlds and forgeworlds to supply them, the warbands take equipment and recruit from loyalists that they raid.

Super Ninja
03-03-2008, 01:39
Well, I dont know about any of the other legions, but Dead Sky Black Sun and Storm Of Iron describe how the Iron Wariors do it in great detail:

1. Steal some gene-seed from a storage bank or re-harvest it from any dead marine, traitor or loyalist.

2. Feed the gene-seed into giant, deformed, and insane human females called "Daemonculaba".

3. Kidnap babies (yes, babies) or adolesent boys and sow them into the Daemonculaba's woombs to have the gene-seed fed into them.

4. the babies or boys that dont die (yes, dead babies) become CSM

scratchbuilt
03-03-2008, 08:09
Well thats gross.
All this random seed grabbing seems a bit out of character. Legions are based around aping their primarch and using his seed...

TheOverlord
03-03-2008, 09:36
Well, considering that they're stuck in a daemon realm in which there is no replacement for their geneseed to foster and grow, I'd say they'd take where they can get it :D The Legions are definitely very protective of their own heritage, which is why many of the grief those borne without their primarch's geneseed in them. Or at least that is the case in which Honsou from Storm of Iron lived. Of course, it could be the fact it was more from the fact that he had Imperial Fist geneseed in him more than it wasn't Iron Warrior, but whatever the fact, they do repeatedly steal geneseed from the Imperium to bolster their ranks, as stated in many fluff. (Storm of Iron, Dark Angels book in which I forget it's name, Codex: Chaos Space Marines)

bosstroll
03-03-2008, 12:07
Naw monster.com is where they get them from or a temp service. :D

Lol, temp agency CSM.

New CSM:"No man, i'm a temp, last month i worked for Microsoft"
Sqaud buddies:"Dude....come on, theres being evil, and then theres working for Microsoft"

Chaplain Dionitas
03-03-2008, 14:15
I thought they just went down to the mall and picked up all the pissed off emo kids.


CSM:"Hey kid! Wanna be a Night lord?"
Emo Kid:"Can I cut myself and hate everything?"
CSM:"All the time kid"

scratchbuilt
03-03-2008, 15:03
Well goes against the fluff I've read - though that was older stuff... Good old days...

Sepharine
03-03-2008, 15:18
Hmm.... Are these Surgeons a group, or just individuals? Any common factors? Where do they get their knowledge?

The passage is not very clear, although it seems to indicate that they (in Black Legion's case) became part of the Legion. Another passage states that those wanting to devote everything to Khorne would join the World Eaters for the surgery, but obviously, other legions have acces to this aswell.The Passage on Black Legion surgeons is found on page 36 of Codex CSM, cant readily find the bit about khorne devouts joining world eaters though.

Talos402000
03-03-2008, 23:25
The Fallen Legions don't really use medics or Apothecaries per se, instead most warbands depend on medical servitors called Chirumeks. Most Legions just scavenge whatever geneseed they can, but several other Legions have more esoteric methods of gaining new Marines.

World Eaters. In addition to using Chirumeks, the Legion holds vast gladiatorial games involving thousands of fighters, pitted aginst each other until only a few remain. Then Angron, Daemon Primarch of the World Eaters, slices his palm and fills the Chalice of Skulls with his blood. Aspirants drink the blood, and if they survive the change, emerge as full Marines. Later, once they have proven themselves, the Chirumeks surgically implant cybernetic devices in their heads which drive them insane with rage and bloodlust, thus creating Berzerkerz.

For the Thousand Sons, it is very different. The aspirants of the Thousand Sons start off having the geneseed of Magnus tranferred to them using sorcery, not mundane medical means, transforming them into thrall wizards, a sort of living psyker battery. The sorcerors use them to bolster their own power, and also use them as a sort of living fuse, to accept any harmful energies or overloads aimed at the Sorceror (this usually kills the thrall wizard). If the Thrall wizard survives this, and gains enough power and knowledge, he is put into power armor, given his bolter, and a final test is performed over him: a lesser form of the Rubric of Ahriman is cast. If he survives the spell, he emerges as a full fledged Sorcerer, with his power greatly augmented by the spell. If he fails, every opening and clasp of his armor will be fused shut and the body within reduced to ashes. The failed aspirant then goes on to join the ranks of the battle brothers, the Rubric Marines.

Imperialis_Dominatus
04-03-2008, 01:06
I... have never heard any of that, anywhere. Source?

Baaltharus
04-03-2008, 03:25
Indeed, source my good man, as interesting as it sounds I've never heard anything like this. I'd also have to question it as the World Eaters don't exist as a legion anymore and thus deciding who gets new recruits amongst the warbands might be a tad...interesting to say the least.

jhon
04-03-2008, 03:36
The Fallen Legions don't really use medics or Apothecaries per se, instead most warbands depend on medical servitors called Chirumeks. Most Legions just scavenge whatever geneseed they can, but several other Legions have more esoteric methods of gaining new Marines.

World Eaters. In addition to using Chirumeks, the Legion holds vast gladiatorial games involving thousands of fighters, pitted aginst each other until only a few remain. Then Angron, Daemon Primarch of the World Eaters, slices his palm and fills the Chalice of Skulls with his blood. Aspirants drink the blood, and if they survive the change, emerge as full Marines. Later, once they have proven themselves, the Chirumeks surgically implant cybernetic devices in their heads which drive them insane with rage and bloodlust, thus creating Berzerkerz.

For the Thousand Sons, it is very different. The aspirants of the Thousand Sons start off having the geneseed of Magnus tranferred to them using sorcery, not mundane medical means, transforming them into thrall wizards, a sort of living psyker battery. The sorcerors use them to bolster their own power, and also use them as a sort of living fuse, to accept any harmful energies or overloads aimed at the Sorceror (this usually kills the thrall wizard). If the Thrall wizard survives this, and gains enough power and knowledge, he is put into power armor, given his bolter, and a final test is performed over him: a lesser form of the Rubric of Ahriman is cast. If he survives the spell, he emerges as a full fledged Sorcerer, with his power greatly augmented by the spell. If he fails, every opening and clasp of his armor will be fused shut and the body within reduced to ashes. The failed aspirant then goes on to join the ranks of the battle brothers, the Rubric Marines.

about the world eater part i had read something samiliar in a fan faction site date bak to 1996 , it could be fan fluff or some offical fluff that GW has wipe off from the 40k backgound history before it release in some reason ...

no idea for the k son one ..

from what i know the k sons dont recurit new rubric maines they just simply gather bak the soul of rubric marines and reseal them in a new armour .[source : some GW offical comic i read .

Nazguire
04-03-2008, 08:57
about the world eater part i had read something samiliar in a fan faction site date bak to 1996 , it could be fan fluff or some offical fluff that GW has wipe off from the 40k backgound history before it release in some reason ...

no idea for the k son one ..

from what i know the k sons dont recurit new rubric maines they just simply gather bak the soul of rubric marines and reseal them in a new armour .[source : some GW offical comic i read .

Nuff said :D

Though the whole gladiatorial thing for the World Eaters sounds cool and in character, though Angron being present for all the inductions sounds not only far-fetched, but completely implausible.:wtf:

Thousand Sons....don't they summon back the souls of dead Thousand Sons (or other nearby dead Marines) and put them back in armour? Which means only weapons that attack the soul can truly destroy a Rubric Marine (Psycannon, force weapon, etc)

Baaltharus
04-03-2008, 11:32
about the world eater part i had read something samiliar in a fan faction site date bak to 1996 , it could be fan fluff or some offical fluff that GW has wipe off from the 40k backgound history before it release in some reason ...

no idea for the k son one ..

from what i know the k sons dont recurit new rubric maines they just simply gather bak the soul of rubric marines and reseal them in a new armour .[source : some GW offical comic i read .

Like everything else in the 40k universe nothings 100% certain. When souls enter the warp they tend to break apart (as is my understanding) with their strength being taken in by their chosen deity (whether it be the Emperor or Mork). In the case of the TSs they would be consumed by Tzeentch. I can see some Rubric marines being bound to armour before breaking apart but ultimately the 'legion' itself is far from immortal (in my mind anyway).

Epicenter
04-03-2008, 21:41
There's a bit of fluff in the last Chaos codex about some Chaos worshipper being taken into the Legions after showing his fighting spirit against some Loyalist Space Marines. It's assumable that's one way of joining the Legions - cultists and such who impress Space Marines or ones that Space Marines take a shine to probably get taken and become Marines.


Naw monster.com is where they get them from or a temp service. :D

CSMs actually recruit from disgruntled workers put out of work because of outsourcing and such. I'm told they openly recruit from trailer parks in the US. I'm not sure about the UK. The East End in London perhaps? Birmingham? ;)

Talos402000
05-03-2008, 00:27
I... have never heard any of that, anywhere. Source?
Story in Let the Galaxy Burn for the World Eaters.
Chirumeks are from Storm of Iron and Dark Apostle where both times they are reported as harvesting geneseed from fallen Traitors.
Thousand Sons background I truly do not know. I read it sometime in the late 90's and it sounded such a good idea that I ran with it.

Indeed, source my good man, as interesting as it sounds I've never heard anything like this. I'd also have to question it as the World Eaters don't exist as a legion anymore and thus deciding who gets new recruits amongst the warbands might be a tad...interesting to say the least.
The World Eaters do indeed exist as a Legion. Just not a cohesive Legion. The Emperor's Children are also shattered (no traitor legion has a unified command anymore, just some are more chaotic than others), but at least the World Eaters still have their Primarch to rally around. I bet Angron's warband probably numbers in the 10's of thousands of Bezerkerz and World Eaters, and he could probably summon more.


Nuff said :DThough the whole gladiatorial thing for the World Eaters sounds cool and in character, though Angron being present for all the inductions sounds not only far-fetched, but completely implausible.:wtf:Thousand Sons....don't they summon back the souls of dead Thousand Sons (or other nearby dead Marines) and put them back in armour? Which means only weapons that attack the soul can truly destroy a Rubric Marine (Psycannon, force weapon, etc)

That started in the Ragnar Blackmane Space Wolf novels, but with Chaos, I bet theirs more than one way to do it.

scratchbuilt
05-03-2008, 09:18
Important thing to notice is that even for one legion, different answers have been given at different times. Some of the things I'm hearing from the novels seems to go against the csm fluff as I'd read it. Not saying that makes it wrong. Obv GW are willing to let others add to the fluff.

Tiamat
05-03-2008, 09:48
Do you know how the Royal Navy used to recruit about 200 years ago?

Gangs of sailors would hang around the docks and ambush drunkards by whacking them over the back of the head with a small wood and leather club called a Black Jack. By the time said drunkards woke up, they on board one of his majesties ships, far our to sea. These were call press gangs.

I imagine something very similar would take place in swelling the mortal armies of chaos.

As for Chaos Marines themselves, well there has to be more then the fair share of willing cultists, maybe even a few would prove worthy, like a loyalist aspirant.

tsutek
05-03-2008, 11:14
And here I thought chaos wouldn't have to make any sense, being chaos after all.. just goes to show I've never played 'em or read too much about chaos stuff. If something lives in the warp, in my mind there ain't any conceivable limits on how stuff becomes stuff.. but I guess that would leave too much for the imagination.

Dissapointing to find out that chaos marines have any similarities with the proper astartes doctrines (using geneseed wtf? I thought all things chaotic mutate and change due to the ways of the warp and not through real-world biology/physiology). Why'd they have to rationalize magic and supernatural stuff so much? Guess I'm just too stuck up with my own views again...

Baaltharus
05-03-2008, 14:34
Story in Let the Galaxy Burn for the World Eaters.
Chirumeks are from Storm of Iron and Dark Apostle where both times they are reported as harvesting geneseed from fallen Traitors.
Thousand Sons background I truly do not know. I read it sometime in the late 90's and it sounded such a good idea that I ran with it.

The World Eaters do indeed exist as a Legion. Just not a cohesive Legion. The Emperor's Children are also shattered (no traitor legion has a unified command anymore, just some are more chaotic than others), but at least the World Eaters still have their Primarch to rally around. I bet Angron's warband probably numbers in the 10's of thousands of Bezerkerz and World Eaters, and he could probably summon more.

I disagree, I would argue that the legions are defined by their cohesion and following the orders of a given command structure. The World Eaters are now just warbands, they are not a legion. I very much doubt the remains of the World Eaters 'legion' would even get close to 10,000 as a whole. The traitor legions are shadows of themselves with no where near the numbers they once had.

pookie
05-03-2008, 15:00
I disagree, I would argue that the legions are defined by their cohesion and following the orders of a given command structure. The World Eaters are now just warbands, they are not a legion. I very much doubt the remains of the World Eaters 'legion' would even get close to 10,000 as a whole. The traitor legions are shadows of themselves with no where near the numbers they once had.

i agree also, doesnt the HH books say that there was less than 10000 zerks after Istvaan?

at the end of the day the forces of Chaos can do what they want to recruit, its how they get hold of Gene seed that is the only questionable thing, imo they cant use there primachs ( those that are alive ) because they are something entirly diffrent to what they were when there Gene seed was first used to add to the founding Legions.

SM have to go via the Ad Mech, CSM can take what they want from who they want and dont have to worry/care where the Gene Seed comes from, in some ways it would be more of a 'blessing' to corrupt a UM gene seed imo than take one from a fellow traitor.

scratchbuilt
05-03-2008, 18:18
And here I thought chaos wouldn't have to make any sense, being chaos after all.. just goes to show I've never played 'em or read too much about chaos stuff. If something lives in the warp, in my mind there ain't any conceivable limits on how stuff becomes stuff.. but I guess that would leave too much for the imagination.

Dissapointing to find out that chaos marines have any similarities with the proper astartes doctrines (using geneseed wtf? I thought all things chaotic mutate and change due to the ways of the warp and not through real-world biology/physiology). Why'd they have to rationalize magic and supernatural stuff so much? Guess I'm just too stuck up with my own views again...

Agreed
Indeedy

Sceleris82
05-03-2008, 18:22
Well we know Fabius creates the geneseed. And in the last Chaos Marines codex there is a story about a tribe which worships the 4 winds"aka Chaos".
In the story we follow a prince who is battling a hostile tribe which worships the emperor, in the end the prince's familiy is killed and a Chaos Sorcerer takes the prince back to his homeworld to turn him into a chaos marine.

So in conclusion, we can safely presume people actully live on the worlds in the EoT and maybe other planets to. Also i have read somehwere that slaves have the chance via gladiator contest to join the legions.

Just my 2 cent.

Imperialis_Dominatus
05-03-2008, 19:39
Story in Let the Galaxy Burn for the World Eaters.

I see. I generally don't read BL, so that explains that.


no traitor legion has a unified command anymore

I'd say the Word Bearers might object to that. In the fluff I've seen they have the most discipline and organization of all of the Legions.

Nazguire
06-03-2008, 04:00
I see. I generally don't read BL, so that explains that.



I'd say the Word Bearers might object to that. In the fluff I've seen they have the most discipline and organization of all of the Legions.

And I'd say that the Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors have quite a unified and intact command structure too. The Iron Warriors have a home planet and several other planets (the Planet of Steel for one) from which they launch raids. The Alpha Legion have at first a completely random and independant structure of command but there must be a higher level of 'cells' that have more authority then the others. I believe that the Alpha Legion, while appearing completely shattered and independant are moreorless unified, just in a different way to the other Legions.

Imperialis_Dominatus
06-03-2008, 20:25
I don't know that much about Iron Warriors, but as for AL, I think that your idea of cells with higher authority might have some merit. However, I am not sure if the Legion is still operative as a whole, for the whole. I've always seen them as 'independent' but not 'shattered' as such.

Iron Warriors... hmm. Their personality doesn't seem to lean towards teamwork, but they probably trust each other more than anyone else. I can see them having some level of command.

So it's just the other six Legions, and only when Abby isn't failing at Black Crusading.

Talos402000
06-03-2008, 22:35
Here's my take of the current status of the traitor Legions:
Traitors

Horus (AKA Lupercal) of the Lunar Wolves (AKA Sons of Horus, Black Legion). Status: Slain by the Emperor at the height of the Horus Heresy.
Legion status: Cohesive. Smallest of the Traitor Legions, the Black Legion is held together by the sheer force of will of former First-Captain Abaddon the Despoiler, once the commander of Horus's first company, the Deliverers. Since their homeworld of Cthonia was destroyed they have maintained central command on board Abaddon's (formerly Horus's) Battle Barge, the Vengeful Spirit. Abbadon is currently leading the 13th Black Crusade and now commands Chaos Marines from every Legion.

Alpharius of the Alpha Legion. Status: Slain by Roubote Gullimane during the Great Scouring at the end of the Heresy.
Legion status: Cohesive. The most disciplined and well-led Traitor Legion, trained both for central and dispersed command. Although it is rumored that the Alpha Legion never retreated to the Eye of Terror it is unknown whether or not they have a homeworld, as no records of Alpharius's homeworld or it’s fate are recorded. Especialy hated by the Inquisition, they are known for starting and coordinating new Chaos Cults all over the Galaxy. Currently led by Daemon-prince Hydraxuss.

Angron of the World Eaters. Status: Daemon Prince in the Eye of Terror.
Legion status: Shattered. The Legion is splintered into hundreds of warbands scattered through-out the Eye of Terror and maintains no central command or homeworld. The largest faction is centered around Daemon-Primarch Angron aboard his battlebarge, the Conqueror, with the second largest faction around warlord Argus Brond, formerly a Chapter-Commander. Kharn the Betrayer, Champion of Khorne, also leads a small following but his never grows too big (he usually ends up killing them himself).

Magnus the Red of the Thousand Sons. Status: Daemon Prince in the Eye of Terror.
Legion status: Semi-cohesive. About 80% of the Legion is headquartered on the Planet of Sorcerers in the Eye of Terror. The rest are spread out among the Eye and primarily consists of Ahriman's former cabal (the former Lodge of the Scarab), exiled after casting the Rubric of Ahriman. Even before the Heresy the Thousand Sons had disregarded the standard Imperial command structures laid down in the Codex Tacticus and now operates in Cabals (sorcerer-oriented and led command squads), Covens (roughly company-sized units), and Sects (roughly chapter-sized units).

Lorgar of the Word Bearers. Status: Daemon Prince in the Eye of Terror.
Legion status: Semi-cohesive. Lorgar dwells on the Daemon world of Sicarius and most of his Legion dwells there as well, but Lorgar keeps only a loose control over his Legion and has turned most of the operational command over to his second, Dark Cardinal Kor Phaeron. The Word Bearers operate in warbands called Hosts, organized by the whim of the commanding Dark Apostle, sometimes only a single squad in size whilst others are almost a Chapter in size.

Fulgrim (AKA the Phoenician) of the Emperor's Children. Status: Became a Daemon Prince before the Heresy, but disappeared after the First Black Crusade. Some say he was slain fighting the other Legions in the Eye of Terror but neither his daemonworld, his crypt, his body, or the remains of his battle-barge the Callidora have ever been found, so his fate is unknown. Nine-thousand years later the Inquisition still maintains a strike force dedicated to hunting him down and killing him.
Legion status: Shattered. Third smallest of the traitor Legions, they maintain no homeworld or central command and operate in warbands all over the Eye of Terror as everything from mercenaries to pirates to warriors in various Daemon's retinues. The largest followings are led by former Lord Commander Eidolon and Lucius the Eternal, the Champion of Slaanesh. The renegade Fabius Bile, a former Apothecary, once belonged to this Legion, although he has long since renounced all loyalty to the Legion with the dissapearence of Fulgrim.

Mortarion of the Death Guard (AKA the Dusk Raiders). Status: Daemon Prince in the Eye of Terror.
Legion status: Cohesive. Mortarion rules his Legion from Barbarus the Plague Planet in the Eye of Terror with his Legion's warbands scattered in various fortresses around the plague planet, with Typhon the Destroyer Herald of Nurgle leading a small exiled following aboard the battleship Terminus Ex.

Konrad Curze AKA Night Haunter of the Night Lords. Status: Slain by a Callidus Assassin at the end of the Heresy, although the last few moments of the holo-recording of the fight are blank...
Legion status: Semi-Cohesive. The Night Lords worship no Chaos god and follow only Chaos Undivided. They control a pocket of space in the Eye that is always dark and gloomy as a homebase, and in the Eye operate as mercenaries for the other Legions. Despite the loss of their Primarch, the Night Lords maintain surprisingly strong ties amongst each other. Daemon-Prince Accerbus Krieg stands as first among equals and commands the largest following, but by no means does he give orders to the whole Legion.

Perturabo of the Iron Warriors. Status: Daemon Prince in the Eye of Terror.
Legion status: Cohesive. Headquartered on the Daemon world of Medrengarrd. Separated into units called grand companies of various sizes led by Warsmiths who typically hire themselves out as mercinaries specializing in siege warfare. The Legion usually follows Chaos Undivided with a small group following Khorne. The largest grand company is almost a chapter in size and is led by Warsmith Crassus the Black, said to be an original Terran Marine of the Iron Warriors from before the days of the Great Crusade.

It must be noted that only Angron has taken the field aginst the Imperium within living memory, and most Daemon Primarchs have not been seen outside the Occularis Terribilus in thousands of years. It is thought that most Daemon Primarchs have moved beyond the active stage and have entered the contemplative stage where they spend almost all their time communing with the Chaos Gods and meditating on the nature of the Immaterium. It would probably take an event of apocaliptic proportions to awaken the Chaos Primarchs now.

Kandarin
07-03-2008, 04:37
While Talos' accounts of the recruiting processes may be old and uncertain fluff, respectively, they are entirely plausible. Those Legions that still have their Primarch in any form will continue to get geneseed from their Primarch.

Nazguire
07-03-2008, 04:45
While Talos' accounts of the recruiting processes may be old and uncertain fluff, respectively, they are entirely plausible. Those Legions that still have their Primarch in any form will continue to get geneseed from their Primarch.

How, dare I ask, can you get blood or gene-seed or whatever from a monster made of pure Warp energy who has to pretty much live in the Eye of Terror due to how much of a daemon he now is?:D

DantesInferno
07-03-2008, 05:54
How, dare I ask, can you get blood or gene-seed or whatever from a monster made of pure Warp energy who has to pretty much live in the Eye of Terror due to how much of a daemon he now is?:D

A bunch of flowers and a box of chocolates is considered the conventional way.

The more pressing issue is the fact that most of the Legions lack anywhere near the central organisation to ensure that their Primarch's genetic material (even if it could be extracted) makes it into all the disparate warbands of that particular Legion. The sheer unfeasibility of this should lead us to conclude that the bulk of Chaos recruits are implanted with gene-seed in the conventional way: either gene-seed extracted from their comrades in the Legion or gene-seed captured on the battlefield.

jhon
07-03-2008, 07:35
How, dare I ask, can you get blood or gene-seed or whatever from a monster made of pure Warp energy who has to pretty much live in the Eye of Terror due to how much of a daemon he now is?:D

humm.. why not .. things in side the warp is not bound by any law in the real .therefore a pimarch cant give birth with a human female doesnt mean he cant giving in the warp .also primarch is like a demi god in his deamonci world he can create the most adavce lab just with his will .

Baaltharus
07-03-2008, 12:14
humm.. why not .. things in side the warp is not bound by any law in the real .therefore a pimarch cant give birth with a human female doesnt mean he cant giving in the warp .also primarch is like a demi god in his deamonci world he can create the most adavce lab just with his will .

I think the problem would not be in the idea of a Primarch being able to give geneseed so to speak but the nature of the seed and the reluctance of a daemon primarch to go out of his way for allow mortals to 'harvest' it. Even if CSM could harvest it from a daemonic primarch it would be horrendously mutated and probably just kill a human or drive them insane (or turn them into spawn, etc).

The nature of demonic power tends to be elemental in nature, bands of energy, storms of warp spawned magic, changing physical appearance, controlling the elements, the landscape and so forth. Daemon Princes can't conjure space faring battleships out of nothing, make huge artillery pieces or 'advanced labs' (imo at least).

svien
07-03-2008, 12:21
actually in storm of iron the iron warriors assaulted a plannet that had a hidden gene seed storage area

pookie
07-03-2008, 12:54
actually in storm of iron the iron warriors assaulted a plannet that had a hidden gene seed storage area

:rolleyes: why not read the thread before posting....

Talos402000
07-03-2008, 18:13
How, dare I ask, can you get blood or gene-seed or whatever from a monster made of pure Warp energy who has to pretty much live in the Eye of Terror due to how much of a daemon he now is?:D

One word. Chaos. In the eye of Terror, literally anything can happen. You are trying to plead reason, what does Chaos know of reason?:confused:



:rolleyes: why not read the thread before posting....

Now now, Pookie. Give the Scout a break, we were all like him, once...

Baaltharus
07-03-2008, 18:41
One word. Chaos. In the eye of Terror, literally anything can happen. You are trying to plead reason, what does Chaos know of reason?:confused:

There are limitations even within the weird and wonderful worlds of the Eye. Like I said earlier, while alot of weird stuff can and certainly does happen in the eye but it tends to be elemental rather than technical and/or scientific.

Ddraiglais
07-03-2008, 19:58
As far as recruiting goes, it's similar to Loyalist chapters. They find mortal champions in the Eye and the Imperium. Sometimes a whole planet might fight to the death so that a small handful of suitable recruits can be found.

Geneseed is collected after battles. It doesn't matter if it's friend or foe. Honsou (an IW warsmith) was created using IF geneseed. The IW and BL also scored a huge amount of geneseed from Hydra Cordatus. The IW took it, but gave it to Abby to make up for not taking part in the 12th Black Crusade. Of course they kept some for themselves.

I imagine there are many practices concerning the making of mortal champions into CSM. Bile is one confirmed story. As mentioned, there are other lesser known surgeons. The IW used some kind of pod like things. I forget their name. The success rate wasn't that great. I am not sure if any of the geneseed was salvagable. The failures were flushed down a sewer system. Some lived and were hulking monstrosities (the unfleshed). As these creatures seemed to have super strength and all that, I would say the geneseed from the failures was lost.

jhon
08-03-2008, 01:24
I think the problem would not be in the idea of a Primarch being able to give geneseed so to speak but the nature of the seed and the reluctance of a daemon primarch to go out of his way for allow mortals to 'harvest' it. Even if CSM could harvest it from a daemonic primarch it would be horrendously mutated and probably just kill a human or drive them insane (or turn them into spawn, etc).

The nature of demonic power tends to be elemental in nature, bands of energy, storms of warp spawned magic, changing physical appearance, controlling the elements, the landscape and so forth. Daemon Princes can't conjure space faring battleships out of nothing, make huge artillery pieces or 'advanced labs' (imo at least).

hum. as long as "the deamon prince/princess can give " birth to new born " or bliss other with their deamonic blood thoery" can stand . i can see some of the 'pervert ' deamon prince will do just becuase he/she want some 'toy soldier' to play with .as the stalker of the deamon world i think they will have some imumme to mutation and the negative side effect of the choastic engry ,and even out of 100 only 1 can over come the bliss , their will be 10000000+' want to be ' to throw their life for the bliss .

maybe they cant moyph a lab or a space ship out of nothing but they sure could " enchance" the constuct with deamonic tech and their pure will ...

Drasanil
08-03-2008, 03:40
@jhon: Reading (or rather trying to read and understand) your post hurts my brain.

I'm hardly a spelling nazi, but for the love of god man atleast try to write your posts in a coherent fashion. Otherwise your words might simply be dismissed as those of a gibbering madman.

jhon
08-03-2008, 04:15
@jhon: Reading (or rather trying to read and understand) your post hurts my brain.

I'm hardly a spelling nazi, but for the love of god man atleast try to write your posts in a coherent fashion. Otherwise your words might simply be dismissed as those of a gibbering madman.

you must roll a 12 or 2 in your psyhic test and my post must be some kind of warp beast that eating your brain :D . im deeply sorry for the bad grammer and spelling i make . as english is not my mother langue , to be honest english is my third langue , i try my best to make as little mistake as i could but it seems is not enough .

Zzarchov
08-03-2008, 15:41
Read the Ork Codex:

Death for warriors who amuse (or annoy) the Chaos Gods is Optional.

They may bring you back day after day to fight in battle, suffer torture and execution, etc for all eternity.

If all the Original World Eaters die in a rush on Cadia, the next day hey no doubt wake up again, build a new fleet and head right back out...again..and again...and again..

Baaltharus
08-03-2008, 17:02
Hardly, thats only within the Eye and under the patron Gods power. If all the bezerkers died on Cadia they would stay dead on Cadia. There is only one case where its been suggested that Khorne may have brought a warrior back to life and that was with Kharne, the chosen mortal in Khornes service.

scratchbuilt
08-03-2008, 18:17
I imagine the primarch injects hopeful with his geneseed, directly in person. It's a bit like the scene from pulp fiction:o:angel:

Richter Kless
09-03-2008, 14:07
I imagine the primarch injects hopeful with his geneseed, directly in person. It's a bit like the scene from pulp fiction:o:angel:

I bet billions of Slaaneshi cultists must be standing in line then, eager to recieve Fulgrimms 'blessing';). (hentai artists should take inspiration from this)

pookie
09-03-2008, 17:31
Now now, Pookie. Give the Scout a break, we were all like him, once...

Aye tahts true, but even a glance would have noted wit had already been said, but fair do's :angel: