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Aeolian
03-03-2008, 03:29
I'm intrigued by this chapter. Surely the creation of a new tool for hunting Daemons is a sign of progress technologically and a the pursuit of improving on what has gone before?

A thought for the Me-can'ticus people.

PondaNagura
03-03-2008, 04:07
well purposefully possessing and exorcizing daemons from marine canidates is less a technological thing, and more of a purity of body, mind, and soul. the whole process is trial by fire, with results of a hardened will to resist the draw of chaos...well that or immediate termination.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
03-03-2008, 04:35
Yay, a question I can use my brand-new Imperial Armour book to answer!

In the Introduction, they talk about new STC (Standard Template Construction) designs being found all the time, and old ones falling into disuse or the technology necessary to repair them being forgotten. Technology in the 41st millenium is stagnate. Imagine a car brought back into Renaissance times. They could learn to drive it as long as it had gas in it, and perhaps later on adapt it to move with steam power or land sails (weird I know), but the technology of repairing the onboard computer, interior wiring for the lights, etc, would be totally beyond them. This is the state of technology in the Imperium. They can recreate designs they already have, and RARELY make small changes or incorporate different parts into new configurations, but there is no progress.

Aeolian
03-03-2008, 04:45
Yay, a question I can use my brand-new Imperial Armour book to answer!

In the Introduction, they talk about new STC (Standard Template Construction) designs being found all the time, and old ones falling into disuse or the technology necessary to repair them being forgotten. Technology in the 41st millenium is stagnate. Imagine a car brought back into Renaissance times. They could learn to drive it as long as it had gas in it, and perhaps later on adapt it to move with steam power or land sails (weird I know), but the technology of repairing the onboard computer, interior wiring for the lights, etc, would be totally beyond them. This is the state of technology in the Imperium. They can recreate designs they already have, and RARELY make small changes or incorporate different parts into new configurations, but there is no progress.

Of course there is progress. You can't make a blanket statement like that about the millions of human worlds out there.

Kymar
03-03-2008, 04:55
Of course there is progress. You can't make a blanket statement like that about the millions of human worlds out there.

Though it is true there are enough worlds in the Imperium that some bright cookie is eventually going to figure out an innovation, there is the idea of Techno-heresy. Because the Ad-Mech control technological designs through STC patterns, any unsanctioned variations on the Ad-Mech plans are illegal. Beyond the obvious Inquisitor visit/purge, there are more then one SM chapter with close Ad-Mech ties whom will gladly come and enforce the Imperium's rules. :chrome:

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
03-03-2008, 04:56
Of course there is progress. You can't make a blanket statement like that about the millions of human worlds out there.

First of all, sure I can! Anyway, my opinion is based upon the background material that can be found in many Black Library novels, codecis, and Imperial Armour books. The Adeptus Mechanicus are in charge of all the Technology in the Imperium, and innovation is seen as heresey. The STC's are seen as the devine will of the Machine God and the Emperor, so tampering with them normally carries the penalty of death.

Like I said, sometimes they switch this turret onto that chassis, or throw this engine into that tank, but they are still using existing designs. The only "new" stuff comes in the form of finding of rediscovered STC's. Only a very small percentage of rogue Adeptus Mechanicus Techpriests would dare innovate or tinker. So, for all intents and purposes, makind's technology has halted and everytime a design is lost, it backslides.

Tehkonrad
03-03-2008, 05:10
I agree with ventris-progress aint the commonest thingin 40K

Aeolian
03-03-2008, 05:10
First of all, sure I can! Anyway, my opinion is based upon the background material that can be found in many Black Library novels, codecis, and Imperial Armour books. The Adeptus Mechanicus are in charge of all the Technology in the Imperium, and innovation is seen as heresey. The STC's are seen as the devine will of the Machine God and the Emperor, so tampering with them normally carries the penalty of death.

Like I said, sometimes they switch this turret onto that chassis, or throw this engine into that tank, but they are still using existing designs. The only "new" stuff comes in the form of finding of rediscovered STC's. Only a very small percentage of rogue Adeptus Mechanicus Techpriests would dare innovate or tinker. So, for all intents and purposes, makind's technology has halted and everytime a design is lost, it backslides.

So what about the Ordo Xenos, Warp Research on Jupiter's Moons, 'scientists' mentioned in the Exorcist entry, and other various R+D areas of the AdMech?

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
03-03-2008, 05:19
So what about the Ordo Xenos, Warp Research on Jupiter's Moons, 'scientists' mentioned in the Exorcist entry, and other various R+D areas of the AdMech?

Well, there could be plenty of reasons for those:
1.) Games Workshop loves to contradict themselves.
2.) Ordo Xenos is not the Adeptus Mechanicus, even Techmarines are Marines first and foremost, chosen to study technology because of their aptitude.
3.) Any Research and Developement done by the Adeptus Mechanicus is more akin to reverse engineering STC designs and mixing around different systems as I've already stated.

Like I said earlier, there can be and are incidences of Techpriests trying out new things or messing around with STC templates, but these are the exception rather than the rule.

As real people living in the 21st century, we are used to trial, error, innovation, and improvement. That pretty much describes the Tau. Not the Imperium, though. The fact that Technology has become a religion, with it's own priests, chants, and mysticism should tip you off that there's not a lot of actual science going on here. I read an awesome tidbit about the engine of a Leman Russ on a backwards colony going out and being replaced with a steam-driven turbine!

Aeolian
03-03-2008, 05:31
Well, there could be plenty of reasons for those:
1.) Games Workshop loves to contradict themselves.

Not a valid argument, contradiction usually means both alternatives are true.


2.) Ordo Xenos is not the Adeptus Mechanicus, even Techmarines are Marines first and foremost, chosen to study technology because of their aptitude.

I must have gotten the name wrong. I was referring, I think, to the Colllegia Xenos.


3.) Any Research and Developement done by the Adeptus Mechanicus is more akin to reverse engineering STC designs and mixing around different systems as I've already stated.


I find that hard to swallow.

Like I said earlier, there can be and are incidences of Techpriests trying out new things or messing around with STC templates, but these are the exception rather than the rule.


As real people living in the 21st century, we are used to trial, error, innovation, and improvement. That pretty much describes the Tau. Not the Imperium, though. The fact that Technology has become a religion, with it's own priests, chants, and mysticism should tip you off that there's not a lot of actual science going on here. I read an awesome tidbit about the engine of a Leman Russ on a backwards colony going out and being replaced with a steam-driven turbine!

On a backwards colony. The fact is, it's impossible to sustain something you don't understand and the accepted convention is that a lot of the Mechanicus and in some circumstances non Mechanicus do understand how things work. As a rule, designing new toasters will not get you in trouble in 40k. A regime like that cannot survive for 10,000 years.

The usual rule is that STC cannot be modified or built upon, but most of the Imperium's technology is not actually STC, otherwise STC -fragments- would not be hunted down with such zeal, regardless of how 'holy' they are.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
03-03-2008, 05:52
Well, I really don't know what else to tell you. One of the main features about 40K is the hopelessness of humanity and the stagnation of progress of the Imperium. As a matter of fact, in the begining of EVERY Black Library novel they have the same three paragraphs, the third which I will quote for you:

"To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war..." (bold mine)

And here, from Imperial Armour 1, under The Adeptus Mechanicus and Attitudes to Technology:

"Technology, lost in the depths of time, which is re-discovered is revered in a manner more akin to a religious artefact than a simple electric generator or fuel pump. Knowledge has become so debased that advanced systems are more comparable to witcraft or magic." (bold mine)

So I've provided a couple of direct examples to show that there's miniscule to no progress, something that's more like changing around what already exists. You asked if there were signs of progress, and most would say no, not as we experiment and innovate today. If you want there to be technological revolutions all over the galaxy, go right ahead. That's the great thing about 40K is you can make it your own.

Having said that, however, it doesn't really fit in with established 40K background information. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that a technologically progressing Imperium is on that same level of female Marines or Chaos Tau - it's just not found anywhere in the background information.

Bassik
03-03-2008, 07:41
You sayd humanity is stagnating... this is not completeley true.
In the eye of terror, there's still a lot of innovation going on :D

Lord Damocles
03-03-2008, 07:42
Of course there is some progress in the imperium. Just off the top of my head I've come up with:
- Land raider Crusader varient
- Experimental tech in Apocalypse book (page with drawing of battle between guard and 'nids)
- wasn't the development of the Ragnorak and Siegfried tanks fairly recent?
- Whatever the most recent power armour mark is (Mk 6? the one the Grey Knights have)
- Experiments with tinkering with marine geneseed
Progress is just very limited and is only implemented at a painfully slow rate.

Sephtar II
03-03-2008, 08:10
I beleive that the R+D for the colegia xenos or what ever it is would refer to the fact that the imperium reverse engineer some xenos weapons for their own use, the C'Tan phase blade as a good example.

Also Lord Damocles is right, there is a lot of backround material on, for instance, the predator anahilator being developed by the Space Wolves in some warzone and then being approved (eventualy) by the Ad-mech and widely used.

MvS
03-03-2008, 09:44
I'm inclined to agree with the idea that the Ad-Mech control technological progress through means of religious persecution (techno-heresy) and lethal and near-lethal patent policing (if you do make a change they like they can take it from you and make it their 'own' by sanctioning it, but you get nothing for it).

It's impossible to maintain computers of the sophistication of a Titan brain, for instance, without understanding how that system works. It isn't enough to just reproduce all the parts, stick an electrical current through them and hope it works, you have to know what you are reproducing and how to programme it. Same goes for genetic engineering - it can't be done 'blind' with any hope of consistency or predictable success.

I prefer to see the Ad-Mech as exceptionally conservative, self-obsessed and immensely superstitious - not lacking in knowledge or understanding of how their systems work down to the smallest level. They DO know how and why their computers (or 'cogitators') work - vastly more sophisticated computers than our own super-computers today - only they also believe in the inherent holiness of these machines, anthropromorphising them into characters with souls and perhaps because of the nature of the Warp actually giving some machines some sort of soul as a by-product of their staunch beliefs.

The disclaimer at the start of 40K books is to set a theme for the uninitiated. It speaks broadly and in melodramatic terms. The million worlds of the Imperium are not all ignorant. There are billions of people who understand and pursue technology, but the AdMech policing system is so implicit in every aspect of Imperial technological progress that all such innovation has to be done through their auspices, or else. Even then, because the Ad-Mech are superstitious, these innovations sometimes take centuries to be approved. It isn't just that the Ad-Mech don't understand how it works or because they're stupid and can't figure out how a new processor works without an STC about it tattoed on their arm. It's because the innovation might be heretical.

Space Marines care less for this stuff and aren't all that easy to clamp down on, hence the reason many innovations in war-technology comes from them.

STCs are sacred. They're like the Eucharist. The Ad-Mech must know that other technology equals and even surpasses STC technology in many ways, and they must also know very well how to adapt, evolve and change STC constructs. The reason they don't actively adopt xeno-tech or alter STCs is because the STC are considered the Holy of Holies. It's sacreligious to change them willy-nilly, even if doing so is eminently possible, understood and An Otherwise Good Idea. It's a matter of religious belief not lack of 'how-to'.

"Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding" is just a guideline to what the mood and concept of the Imperium is like. It is the acute fear and frothing fanaticism of the Imperium that holds it back (not to mention it's impossible size and the threats it faces), not the lack of knowledge and understanding amongst the ruling elites. The Ad-Mech re-learn things all the time, and discover new things too I'd warrant. It's just that it takes forever for them to decide whether any new development will be acceptable to the Machine God, so bound are they by fear and superstition. This is acute superstition and culturally normalised ignorance in terms of a lack of wisdom NOT a lack of knowledge or technical understanding.

Or so I like to think.

elusiveintrovert
03-03-2008, 11:22
There are also some examples of innovation in the imperium, such as mk VIII power armour, which ironicly a lot of the established marine chapters are hesitant to use because it differs from the standard mk VI and mk VII.

Also, if you look in the necron codex, it has a report of a tech adept who makes a hypothesis about how necron gauss technology works and goes on to state that he cannot fathom how the necrons power such weapons as the power requirements would require output from a generator that would have to be mounted on a titan or starship. He then states that it would be a great thing if the imperium, or more likely the mechanicus, had access to such weaponry.

That kind of report suggests that the mechanicus knows how their technology works. They may have a religious outlook on it, but they still understand it.

Corax
03-03-2008, 11:46
In the eye of terror, there's still a lot of innovation going on :D

That's not innovation, that's mutation! Completely different things! :D

Apart from the technical limitations on innovation, its also worth pointing out that the Imperium is ideologically opposed to any form of progress. In fact, one could argue that from an Imperial perspective, progress is heresy!

BrotherAdso
03-03-2008, 12:31
I think the important thing to remember is that the spirit and promise of progress is absent, even if actual minor improvements are present.

Just because a few technological innovations or refinements are possible, or a few researchers are hard at work on the moons of Jupiter, that doesn't mean there is a spirit of progress going on. No one is convinced that they can improve the state of mankind, or even change the way the universe works -- just make a small space for themselves to keep the wolves at bay.

In fact, this makes the small technological improvements even sadder -- humankind has not lost the ability to improve, but refuses to embrace the vision or spirit of progress. If you make a better gun, it's not because you like to improve things -- but because you just happened to need it.

Adso

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
03-03-2008, 12:56
I think the important thing to remember is that the spirit and promise of progress is absent, even if actual minor improvements are present.

Just because a few technological innovations or refinements are possible, or a few researchers are hard at work on the moons of Jupiter, that doesn't mean there is a spirit of progress going on. No one is convinced that they can improve the state of mankind, or even change the way the universe works -- just make a small space for themselves to keep the wolves at bay.

In fact, this makes the small technological improvements even sadder -- humankind has not lost the ability to improve, but refuses to embrace the vision or spirit of progress. If you make a better gun, it's not because you like to improve things -- but because you just happened to need it.

Adso

Thanks Adso, I think that's a really good point. These are isolated incidents. And as I've said, they are still discovering old STC designs, and this is where these "new" turret variations, weapons designs, and other "innovations" are coming from. This is all in the background.

Iracundus
03-03-2008, 15:35
Thanks Adso, I think that's a really good point. These are isolated incidents. And as I've said, they are still discovering old STC designs, and this is where these "new" turret variations, weapons designs, and other "innovations" are coming from. This is all in the background.

As stated in Imperial Armor, the AdMech's research efforts are really more like archeology than R&D as modern real life would not it. They go on treasure hunts searching for lost scraps of STC designs, rearrange bits and pieces of existing STC parts, or pore over old records in the hopes of successfully piecing together lost forgotten technology.

The main BFG rulebook actually gives quite a few examples showing a general picture of the Imperium's technological changes. The grand cruiser class of ships (intermediate between battlecruisers and proper battleships) falls out of service in the Imperium because the AdMech loses the secrets of building sufficiently compact yet powerful engines. The Tyrant class with its long range plasma weapon batteries comes about as a result of rediscovery of "superfired plasma batteries", however this is again just unearthing of previously lost technology. The Firestorm frigate comes about as a result of redirecting power into one large laser at the prow of the ship. This is akin to vehicle variants with just simple weapon swaps, not real major original research as such. Overall though, the impression is very much of one step forward, two steps backward.

One also must remember the "Dark Age of Technology" is called "Dark" in the 40K era for 2 reasons. The first is that much knowledge about that era was lost and it is dark because so little is now known about it other than it was technologically advanced. The second reason is because it was an era of "godless" or "soulless" technology compared to the spiritual technology practiced by the AdMech. In the Imperium and AdMech's eyes, it showed that technology alone without proper attention to the spirit (of both user and machine) was a failure.

MvS
03-03-2008, 20:17
These are all good points.

I think perhaps the Mechanicus should be viewed in much the same light as the Inquisition. The norm might fall onto the side of extreme conservatism, superstition and search for archeotech instead of innovation, just as the norm for Imperial dogma is that psykers=bad, or at least very suspect, and all social progress should be stifled in favour of the status quo. That said we know that the ruling classes of the Imperium, particularly the Inquisition, are far more diverse and contradictory from the inside looking out than the outside looking in.

cpl_hicks
03-03-2008, 22:24
- Land raider Crusader varient

The Land Raider Crusader (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Land_Raider_Crusader) was created in (645.M39), thats 2355 years before the latest date we have M42 (Medusa V)



- wasn't the development of the Ragnorak and Siegfried tanks fairly recent?

The Siegfried was developed during the Krieg Rebellion (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Siegfried) in 433.M39 (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Krieg)

Thats 2567 before present



- Whatever the most recent power armour mark is (Mk 6? the one the Grey Knights have)

Mark 7 "Aquila (Eagle) Armor" (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_Armour#Mark_7_.22Aquila_.28Eagle.29_Armor.22 ) was in production during the heresy 10,000 years before present.

There is Mark 8 "Errant Armor" (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_Armour#Mark_8_.22Errant_Armor.22) but i can find no date for that

So from this nothing has really been developed in the Imperium for about 2500 years roughly

Lord Damocles
03-03-2008, 22:37
Just because my few examples which I literally plucked out of thin air arn't from 999.M41 doesn't mean that there's no advancement anymore. Once again, I'd direct you to the Apoc picture with the experimental weapon in it (sorry no page number as I don't have the book with me). The tech must have been developed within the last 200 or so years, as it's being deployed against 'nids.

No new technology in the Imperium will be commonplace (if you can call something like a Landraider commonplace anyway) until centuries or millenia after its development, as as we all know, the Imperium is deeply conservative and wary of change. Besides, spreading the tech to a million worlds is going to take some time.

dr.oetk3r
03-03-2008, 22:43
Not a valid argument, contradiction usually means both alternatives are true.

..which is exactly why it's a contradiction.

Khaine's Messenger
04-03-2008, 00:56
Surely the creation of a new tool for hunting Daemons is a sign of progress technologically

The Exorcists chapter, such as it is, does not represent a "new" tool, just its mass-implementation via Inquisitorial fiat. They're one of the last major wink-nudges at the old phenomenon known as the "illuminatus," ie, those who've rejected the daemonic within themselves and become stronger for it. If anything, they're just GW's rubber stamp on fielding an army of such creatures and little else. Unlike a lot of other "pet projects" (Afriel Strain, eg), however, they seem remarkably stable and viable in the long-term.

I would suggest, for any interested, that the Mentor Legion is a far more applicable example, since their entire stated purpose (perhaps overstated...) is taking R&D to the battlefield and giving it the old fashioned Space Marine stress test.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
04-03-2008, 15:33
Just because my few examples which I literally plucked out of thin air arn't from 999.M41 doesn't mean that there's no advancement anymore. Once again, I'd direct you to the Apoc picture with the experimental weapon in it (sorry no page number as I don't have the book with me). The tech must have been developed within the last 200 or so years, as it's being deployed against 'nids.

No new technology in the Imperium will be commonplace (if you can call something like a Landraider commonplace anyway) until centuries or millenia after its development, as as we all know, the Imperium is deeply conservative and wary of change. Besides, spreading the tech to a million worlds is going to take some time.

The fact that you seem to be overlooking here is that these things weren't developed they were FOUND. ALL of the technology used by the Imperium is from the STC designs. When they find new ones, they are probably considered quite experimental, seeing as how no one has used them in thousands of years. Or they can add on to existing designs with new STC's found recently.

It doesn't matter how much you want it to happen, there is simply no background information to support the idea that the Imperium is progressing their technology. And there are mounds of examples and flat out statements of technology in the Imperium being stagnant, and even sliding back in some instances.

Aeolian
04-03-2008, 17:03
ALL

So you are saying that;

No new toaster designs have been made.

Nobody makes their own designs for hoovers.

That knife? The factory machinery and designs to make it came from STC.

Every single autocar design was actually a dug up STC, right?

:wtf:

There are countless pieces of fluff suggesting otherwise. I'm not going to waste my time typing them all out.

I will say this though. A STC has never been found. What are found are designs modified from STC and occasionally (and very rarely) first generation print outs. The usual find is something like a 12th generation design heavily modified from the original STC.

That alone debunks your argument that all technology in 40k is descended from STC, and not after the thousands of years of regeneration and rebuilding during and following the age of strife until reintegration into the Imperium.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
04-03-2008, 19:43
So you are saying that;

No new toaster designs have been made.

Nobody makes their own designs for hoovers.

That knife? The factory machinery and designs to make it came from STC.

Every single autocar design was actually a dug up STC, right?

:wtf:

Yes, yes I am. And I've shown you quotes to prove it.


There are countless pieces of fluff suggesting otherwise. I'm not going to waste my time typing them all out.

Well, how terribly convenient for your argument and detrimental to mine! Curses, if only I would have thought to invoke the "my point is bulletproof, but I'm not going to give examples" argument! Please, just show me one piece of background information that says that the Imperium is progressing in technology due to research and not due to finding chunks of pieces of STC design. Please waste your time for all of our sake!


I will say this though. A STC has never been found. What are found are designs modified from STC and occasionally (and very rarely) first generation print outs. The usual find is something like a 12th generation design heavily modified from the original STC.

Well shoot dang, that contradicts my argument that they use STC designs they find and supports your argument that they innovate, experiment, and create new stuff. Wait, no it doesn't. Scratch that, reverse it.


That alone debunks your argument that all technology in 40k is descended from STC, and not after the thousands of years of regeneration and rebuilding during and following the age of strife until reintegration into the Imperium.

I'm putting forth background information to show you that the background information tells us that the Imperium is not a bastion of progress and science, back a backwards culture of superstition and religious hegemony that treats technology like living things and religious artefacts not to be tampered with. You just keep telling me how wrong I am with strange examples that have really nothing to do with 40K, or by telling us about many hidden examples that you won't "waste your time" discussing.

Your armies and your games of 40K can be whatever you want them to be. However, you can't change the background info and just expect everyone to agree with you. There are no female Marines, there are no Chaos Tau, and there is no experimental scientific progress in the Imperium, only the gathering and rediscovery of old technology and the mixing of certain systems that have already been used.

MvS
04-03-2008, 20:10
I'm more likely to accept the impossible from sci-fantasy than I am the improbable. I think it is too daft to state that of the quadrillions of humans in the Imperium there are none who can and have figured out how technology works and who can't innovate. Just by statistics this has to be ridiculous.

That said I am happy to believe that the level of superstition regarding technology and the fear everyone has of the Mechanicum and their laws is enough to discourage acting on this knowledge. But then just as there are those who dabble in occultism and sorcery when they should not, I feel certain that in the vastness of the Imperium there are many humans who dabble in other black arts, such as 'techno-heresy', sometimes even with the sanction of misbehaving nobles/governments. There are probably islands of technological advancement just as there are islands of xeno-tech use in the Imperium (Necromunda, C'tan phase weapons). It's just illegal in terms of the letter and spirit of Imperial law.

I also think it likely that the higher echelons of the Mechanicum also understand the workings of the vast majority of the technology they have access to. Just by taking that technology apart and analysing it over centuries would be enough to assure this. That does not, however, mean that they are not still 'archeotechnologists' before they are technologists because of their religious beliefs. Just because they are capable of figuring out for themselves how to invent new machines doesn't mean they WILL do so.

If they believe STC is scared and the only spiritually 'safe' way of manipulating technology it becomes a moot point whether they have the know-how to manipulate technology without STC. They simply wouldn't do it. Likewise, a religiously fanatical doctor may know how the human body works inside out and back to front, but knowing the workings of it would not necessarily change his mind about the sanctity and even primacy of that body's soul. There are plenty of examples in the real world where a doctor has acted counter-intuitively and not treated a patient or prevented someone catching a disease because of that doctor's religious views. The same could be said for the Mechanicum and technology.

PondaNagura
04-03-2008, 20:12
actually the only scientific studies done, are problably those conducted by the biologus teams, or those ordo xenos personelle looking for new ways of thrwarting the Overmind.
like what was done to the nids in "warriors of ultramar"i need to reread for the details, maybe post a SPOILER tag soon.

also STC is such a broad term, there have been countless threads discussing the nature of how people define STC, whether its the independent machine that produces/designs everything, the resulting blueprint or product of larger design machine.

Rirekon
04-03-2008, 20:19
The Land Raider Crusader was modified from the STC Land Raider design.

elusiveintrovert
04-03-2008, 23:28
actually the only scientific studies done, are problably those conducted by the biologus teams, or those ordo xenos personelle looking for new ways of thrwarting the Overmind.

I disagree. The Adeptus Mechanicus is known to examine xenos technology. They often destroy said technology when they are done with it, but they study it none the less. An excellent example being the necron codex. It shows that the cult mechanicus is perfectly capable of scientific analysis. There does seem to be some inovation and enhancement, but such things are extremely few and very far inbetween and are often offset by losing other technologies.

The Mechanicus seems to understand how their technology works, despite their religious view on it. The main issue is that within their order innovation is not held in high regard, and if not done in through the proper channels is veiwed as heresy. Even when done through the proper channels, new things are often only improvements upon existing tech, such as the improvement of mkVII power armour to mkVIII.

It also does not help that the mechanicus seems to be content with it stagnation, and its members generally have no desire to improve technology. Their religious dogma of holy STC only makes this worse.

There are examples of innovation within the human population though, such as the techno recitivists of Faze V, who were highly enhanced with bionics and conected to a machine intelligence. However, when the imperium found them, this was labled techno heresy, and they were subsequently purged.

So basically, I think the general stagnation isn't due to humans being unable to understand the technology, but from religious constraint that enforced with extreme prejudice.

icegreentea
04-03-2008, 23:42
the STC can refer to the individual plan, or the overall collection. There have been a bunch of times in fluff where 'new' stuff has been added to the 'approved STC list'. Stuff like baneblade varients, predator varients and what not, were all either ad hoc battlefield modifications, or a team on a forge world going 'we need to copy what that forgeworld over there is doing, but we don't know exaclty what parts they use'. If the stuff proves popular enough (and usefull enough, and constructed with largely STC compatible parts), then its allowed into the overall approved list.

While part of the insistance on using STC compatible parts is certainly partly theological, there is also the practical consideration that everything built with STC parts can be repaired, swaped, etc etc with other STC parts, which is used EVERYWHERE.

Finally, like Ados said, while isolated cases of advancement (be it true, a new combonation of previous STC parts, or rediscovering old plans), there is no real drive for 'invention' or 'improvement', only a drive to find more STC templates. It must be kept in mind that according the AM theology, all knowledge/technology has already been discovered/invented (the complete STC system contains ALL of humanities knowledge), thus invention would be unneeded/blasphemous.

Aeolian
04-03-2008, 23:57
Yes, yes I am. And I've shown you quotes to prove it.

No you haven't. You've shown me some quotes proving that STCs remain the fallback for most advanced technology, which I never refuted.


Well, how terribly convenient for your argument and detrimental to mine! Curses, if only I would have thought to invoke the "my point is bulletproof, but I'm not going to give examples" argument! Please, just show me one piece of background information that says that the Imperium is progressing in technology due to research and not due to finding chunks of pieces of STC design. Please waste your time for all of our sake!

I never said the Imperium got most of it's technology OR progressing on any kind of large scale, I was just asking if the Exorcists showed a spirit of innovation we don't see too often you complete cretin.


Well shoot dang, that contradicts my argument that they use STC designs they find and supports your argument that they innovate, experiment, and create new stuff. Wait, no it doesn't. Scratch that, reverse it.

Sarcasm is such a skilful way of presenting an argument. I don't see why this riles you up so much.

Please actually read my arguments. I not once said that the Imperium had even a spirit of progress. You are just an angry little idiot who is looking for an argument that doesn't exist.

What I am suggesting is that there are exceptions to the norm, which you have agreed with.

I am also suggesting that for small, low tech devices STC will not usually form the basis for designs.

A 10,000 year old society that started afresh from the Age of Strife may take what it can from the ruins but to assume that everything from Pool Tables to Hot Plates comes from STC and not millennia development defies common sense. For the 40k universe to function realistically you have to assume that the opposite is true.

Even during the DAoT a good deal of technology wasn't STC. STC was a tool for Colonies and not the repository for all human knowledge and achievement.


Please, just show me one piece of background information that says that the Imperium is progressing in technology due to research

The Imperium as a whole couldn't do that anyway. It is an Empire of Millions of worlds who are mostly very isolated from each other. It is probably about as far away from being homogeneous as you possibly could get. Yet you still insist everything, including electric toothbrushes, comes from the single STC design.

Grow a brain.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
05-03-2008, 08:54
Alright, when it turns into personal insults I normally step out. Maybe you'll get farther in life by putting forth ideas and arguments instead of just "I believe this" and "I believe that."

tsutek
05-03-2008, 09:05
I prefer to see the Ad-Mech as exceptionally conservative, self-obsessed and immensely superstitious - not lacking in knowledge or understanding of how their systems work down to the smallest level....

The disclaimer at the start of 40K books is to set a theme for the uninitiated. It speaks broadly and in melodramatic terms...

Space Marines care less for this stuff and aren't all that easy to clamp down on, hence the reason many innovations in war-technology comes from them...

It is the acute fear and frothing fanaticism of the Imperium that holds it back (not to mention it's impossible size and the threats it faces), not the lack of knowledge and understanding amongst the ruling elites...


Thank you so much for your words! This is the best post I've yet to read on warseer - Finally the puzzle is starting solve itself.. You should be working for GW as a fluff writer!

Aeolian
05-03-2008, 14:50
Alright, when it turns into personal insults I normally step out. Maybe you'll get farther in life by putting forth ideas and arguments instead of just "I believe this" and "I believe that."

There is a fine line between loading your posts with extreme sarcasm and personal insults. We're guilty of both respectively.

Its pretty frustrating trying to debate something with someone who refuses to acknowledge ideas that stem from simple common sense.

Nazguire
05-03-2008, 16:26
Thank you so much for your words! This is the best post I've yet to read on warseer - Finally the puzzle is starting solve itself.. You should be working for GW as a fluff writer!


He has.....

EarthAndAllStars
05-03-2008, 20:21
I think there is a point that GW is making about technology that many people miss: technology can be so dangerous in the wrong hands that it must be limited.

A bunch of religious zealots with no science, but lots of sticks and clubs can probably kill a few thousand people. A single space cruiser with the latest 40K tech/science can kill billions in minutes with virus bombs. Which is more dangerous? The religion or science in this case?

The Void Dragon cannot be left out of the conversation either--the godlike creature on Mars who gave out so much technology to man that mankind almost destroyed themselves like children with matches. The 40K human Imperium is currently in a quasi-theocracy, but during the time of the Emperor it was a brutal, secular, conquering warmachine with a supreme dictator who lied to his most loyal about the nature of the universe.

If the GW authors are making a point about the affairs of the world, I'd say it much more about extreme science, power and religion being a detriment to mankind. They also seem to make the point that truth is very relative which undermines a rationalist worldview.

PondaNagura
05-03-2008, 23:46
The Void Dragon cannot be left out of the conversation either--the godlike creature on Mars who gave out so much technology to man that mankind almost destroyed themselves like children with matches.

WHAT! where did you pull this from. i'll assume your talking about the Men of Iron vs Stone men, thing, which has absolutely nothing to do with Necrons in any way...at all. Ever.

Khaine's Messenger
06-03-2008, 01:09
WHAT! where did you pull this from.

The Necron Codex and subsequent fallout. The Dragon will arise from the Vaul-Moon (assumed to mean "forgeworld"), Tech Priests whisper about a more ancient power paid homage to, the Dark Mechanicus thinks the Machine God is still buried somewhere on Mars (per the Horus Heresy art collections), Abaddon's "vision" of a secret on Mars....

Any which way, let's not go down that route unless someone has something fresh to discuss.

I do think that all the technology stuff is more thematic and atmospheric than practical...at least when it comes to hyper-literal interpretations of what the flavor-text says. In which case, EarthandAllStars makes a good point--the Imperium's toys are big and loud. :chrome:

icegreentea
06-03-2008, 01:21
Well Khaine, theres a difference between accepting that the Void Dragon might be on Mars (and that part of the AdMech knows this), and saying that all advance technology (basically the entire STC) is derived from the Void Dragon.

There is absolutely no fluff supporting that all human technology descends from the Void Dragon, and nothing contradicting the pre-Necron Codex fluff of the whole iron men, STC, dark/golden age of technology (where humanity MADE all this great stuff before it blew up in their faces). There's no need to superinflate necrons into EVERY part of fluff.

Khaine's Messenger
06-03-2008, 03:02
Well Khaine, theres a difference between accepting that the Void Dragon might be on Mars (and that part of the AdMech knows this), and saying that all advance technology (basically the entire STC) is derived from the Void Dragon.

Naturally. However, it's pretty obvious that someone within the Cult Mechanicus knew about the Void Dragon's presence (maybe not its nature) and that its presence (or that of its servants or similar constructs) was a strong influence on human culture, what with the "unspeakable knowledge won" and the subsequent downfall of man and all that. At the same time, I don't think anyone is claiming that all high technology came from the Void Dragon--the claim centers exactly on the technologies man used to bring about his downfall in the lead-in to the Age of Strife. I could be wrong, though.


(where humanity MADE all this great stuff before it blew up in their faces)

While I think it would be nice to ascribe every piece of "human" technology to a human creator, I think it just wouldn't do justice to the DAoT for humans to not be stealing and copying from other races alive, dying, dead, and vanished. There's no need to think of the Void Dragon's "influence" as an intended "uplift" event, either. After all, this unspeakable knowledge was won by humans! Rather positive, amidst all the misery of the Necron codex....

But this only serves to illustrate the point about the Imperium's inconsistent tech-levels and its approach to R&D. The DAoT was a time of human exploration and expansion--we took what we wanted, we built what we wanted, and we got burned. Then came the interregnum, then the Imperium. What was left of the gallant explorers (now Explorators) and inventors (now Magi) was a burnt-out shell of a civilization that pretty much knew what was going on with respect to its charges but who were too miserly to share anything because they have "such grim respect for the fire they wield" or some-such philosophical meandering. The Imperium can still make "progress"...but it does so in a way that's a bit alien to the modern understanding of the term.

Aeolian
06-03-2008, 03:11
Of course Khaine some posters would have you believe that everything with moving parts in the 40k universe came from STC designs.

Khaine's Messenger
06-03-2008, 03:30
I'd hazard that most anything with moving parts on a world with a healthy AdMech presence would use STC-type components so as to promote interoperability and standardization. I believe Mechanicus (the forum-goer, not the organization) used to have a nice little piece on his take on that subject. It kinda rejects the idea that the main purpose of the STC is to chug out products designed entirely whole with step by step instructions that are not to be deviated from (although it can do that), but then the very notion presented above could just as well be STC knowledge, too, although its applicability in certain fields may be limited by available STC, and so on.

It all depends on whether you want to dogmatize the process or the results of the process, I guess.

Grimtuff
06-03-2008, 22:23
WHAT! where did you pull this from. i'll assume your talking about the Men of Iron vs Stone men, thing, which has absolutely nothing to do with Necrons in any way...at all. Ever.

Not quite, the Void Dragon is *SUPPOSEDLY* imprisoned/being secretly worshipped by the AdMech on Mars. Though nothing concrete has been said of this it is a widely accepted GW urban legend taken as fact. ;)

Iracundus
06-03-2008, 23:46
Not quite, the Void Dragon is *SUPPOSEDLY* imprisoned/being secretly worshipped by the AdMech on Mars. Though nothing concrete has been said of this it is a widely accepted GW urban legend taken as fact. ;)

It's more concrete than just urban legend. There are multiple direct leads to it in the Necron Codex that the resting place of the Void Dragon is in the Noctis Labyrinth on Mars. Aside from that Eldar prophecy, there is the vision Abaddon has, showing the actual sarcophagus with energy feeding into it, while the souls of those sacrificed are set loose into the warp. The Tech Priest alter-ego of the Deceiver, from the Andy Chambers short story Deus Est Machina, is also mentioned in the Necron Codex. He argues for the sealing of the Labyrinth after a trio of Necron light cruisers penetrate the Martian orbital defenses (first mentioned in the official BFG sources), with one surviving to briefly make landing before finally all 3 are destroyed. The clear implication is the Deceiver wants to seal the Void Dragon in, at least for a bit longer, and prevent a repeat attempt to reach him by what are presumably Necrons loyal to the Dragon.

PondaNagura
07-03-2008, 00:29
i wasn't talking about the Void Drogon on mars, that's common knowledge. i was addressing the assumption that all knowldege/tech humans have ever used following the colonization of mars...STCs; were derived from Necron influence.
what icegreentea said.


the cult mechanicus wasn't founded until the Age of Strife. so worhsip of a machinical entity would have developed in that time, and not prior...as when STC were developed for colonial use.

Khaine's Messenger
07-03-2008, 01:30
i was addressing the assumption that all knowldege/tech humans have ever used following the colonization of mars...STCs; were derived from Necron influence.

I don't recall anyone making that claim. The claim you replied to was that the information gleaned from the Void Dragon's influence was partly responsible* for the collapse of DAoT civilization. Nothing more; the STC library wasn't even mentioned. Unless you read the "so much" part as attempting to fit all human technology under one umbrella? If so, then my bad; it would be trivial, in my opinion, to provide counterexample, and I think that having all human technology based on that influence would be rather sad.

So yes, it's true that not all Imperial technology stems from the Necrons...and especially not the STC. In fact, you could even interpret the Necron codex's stance to mean that the technologies gleaned from the Void Dragon's influence are the very technologies that the AdMech now bans precisely because they may have led to the fall of Man. Which, again, points towards the mentality of the Imperium re: developing technology (the original focus of this thread) and using reverse-engineering xenotech. Now, I'll admit that exploring the rationale for this is kinda old-hat...it's been some fifteen thousand years or more since all this happened, and it nearly crumples suspension of disbelief to buy into the snazzy one-liners about not advancing at all.

Which is why we so desperately cling to anything that looks like even a half-step forward and fawn over the evidence as if it will disappear when we look away. None of us like to think about the Adeptus Mechanicus' glacially slow approval processes for the technologies they can't keep people from using, and it's nearly insane to think of spending more than half a millenium developing a space-plane when modern corporations can bang atmospheric fliers out only a century after we first started commercially flying with heavier-than-air craft. It's just one of those "things" about the Imperium. It's very...atmospheric.

* It would be ludicrous for it to be the only responsible party--there's the rise of psykers and warp storms and all that other junk to consider, too.

**EDIT**: man, I wish modern corporations could bang out space-planes. Oh well. Some day. :)

Brother Siccarius
07-03-2008, 08:07
Of course there is some progress in the imperium. Just off the top of my head I've come up with:
- Land raider Crusader varient
That's an example of adaptation, not innovation, and isn't really progress as it's not an "improvement" of the technology at all. Innovation and progress would have been making an entirely different tech from available materials and methods that made it irrevocably better than the current.

Sure, it did what they needed for when they needed it, but it doesn't outdate the older design. It was just adapted to specialize a different way. In a technology tree, it's on the level with the standard Land Raider design, not ahead of it.

- Experimental tech in Apocalypse book (page with drawing of battle between guard and 'nids)
Experimental just means that it's not fully through testing. It may very well just be adaptations to STC technology.

- wasn't the development of the Ragnorak and Siegfried tanks fairly recent?Neither the Siegfried nor Ragnorak is exactly progress (Making things larger is actually closer to a step backwords).

- Whatever the most recent power armour mark is (Mk 6? the one the Grey Knights have) Actually a tricky thing, that. You see, it is progress as Power Armor has progressed quite a bit, but not during the Reign of "The Imperium". The Innovations and Progress that made Power Armor and several other marvels were made during the time the Emperor ruled Mankind, and you'll notice that the new grades of armor swiftly halted after his "Ascension" (The latest versions only being made towards the end of the Heresy).


- Experiments with tinkering with marine geneseed

Which is outright heresy, and treated as so. The last people on record to have attempted this: created the Cursed founding, got themselves killed by Fabius Bile, and those who discovered this heresy and recovered the records of it were dispatched themselves.


STC was a tool for Colonies and not the repository for all human knowledge and achievement.

Actually, it's funny you should say that, as "Repository for all human knowledge and achievement" is how STC is described quite often in the Fluff. A fully functioning STC database could give you readouts for anything from a retrovirus to a toaster to a space ship when given the parameters of what you want it to do. It was the pinnacle of human achievement, and has never, to my mind, been described as just a tool for colonies. Certainly it's ability to create designs for war machines or battleships gives some idea that it saw a wider use than simply helping to colonize. Though you were off in your earlier comments, yes, a fully functioning STC system has yet to be found (or at least released to the wider public*), but STC systems that contained a couple of designs have been found several times, such as Arkhan Land's discoveries of the LandRaider and LandSpeeder.

* The HH series seems to suggest that at one point the Admech that sided with Horus had access to a fully functioning STC system, captured from a planet and given as a bribe of allegiance.

El_Machinae
07-03-2008, 16:14
There's no real institutional mechanism for increasing technology. Even the AdMechs themselves hoard their personal knowledge so that their individual 'technowizardry' gives them more power.

And people aren't really spreading knowledge either, any discovery quickly dies once the creator and beneficiaries die. It's not like today, where we tell a whole bunch of people about our discoveries and then try to profit off of them.

And, unlike today, a citizen can't say "hey, I wish X science was progressing faster, I think I'll donate some money in research charities of that stripe"

Aeolian
07-03-2008, 19:04
There's no real institutional mechanism for increasing technology. Even the AdMechs themselves hoard their personal knowledge so that their individual 'technowizardry' gives them more power.

And people aren't really spreading knowledge either, any discovery quickly dies once the creator and beneficiaries die. It's not like today, where we tell a whole bunch of people about our discoveries and then try to profit off of them.

And, unlike today, a citizen can't say "hey, I wish X science was progressing faster, I think I'll donate some money in research charities of that stripe"

The problem is no two Imperial worlds are exactly alike in this regard, which is the mistake some of you are making.