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Hideous Loon
05-10-2005, 19:53
Hello all. I will give you two images, and I want you to compare them. Are they any similar, and why do they share that similarity?

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b197/hideous_loon/slaanesh.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b197/hideous_loon/darkreaper.jpg

Well, what do you Warseers think?

Stouty
05-10-2005, 20:04
Probably linked but not the same thing.

Captain Blood
05-10-2005, 20:11
Well, I'm willing to bet that the two have similar connotations, although I doubt they'd be related. Aren't the Aspect Shrines essentially split off from the teachings of Asurman?

I'm thinking that Dark Reaper is in a way the one who reaps a bloody harvest from their enemies, whereas Slaanesh similarly harvests the souls of the Eldar whenever s/he can.

Shouldn't this thread be in Background Discussion?

EDIT: Looks like it got moved while I was typing up a response.

Gorbad Ironclaw
06-10-2005, 08:15
Dark Reapers are exactly as the name suggests the Aspect of Khaine as the Reaper.
Thats why they got the skull masks and everything too.

Of course, given the massive devastation that Slaanesh caused, it wouldn't be unlikely that the eldars used a symbol that was related to death and destruction and that it then just got adapted to become the 'official' Slaanesh symbol.

But I think thats about as far as you can stretch it.

Wraith
06-10-2005, 08:49
IMHO --

Dark Reaper = The C'tan Nightbringer, the 'Yngir' the sort of 'evil gods' of Eldar legend

Void Dragon Aircraft = The C'tan by the same name...

Dranthar
06-10-2005, 09:43
Dark Reaper = The C'tan Nightbringer, the 'Yngir' the sort of 'evil gods' of Eldar legend

Void Dragon Aircraft = The C'tan by the same name...

Sorry, not convinced.

Both the Dark Reapers and Nightbringer represent Death in the traditional form of the Grim reaper. It's clear that they were both based on the same real-life myth, but it doesn't mean they have some bizarre relationship within the 40k universe.

As for the Void Dragon, the only similarity between the two is in name. In every other aspect they differ, so it's a tenuous link at best.

Crux
06-10-2005, 10:02
The Nightbringer IS the reaper - it managed to inprint itself in the psyche of every race (except the Orks), making them fear death.

Wraith
06-10-2005, 11:06
Both the Dark Reapers and Nightbringer represent Death in the traditional form of the Grim reaper. It's clear that they were both based on the same real-life myth, but it doesn't mean they have some bizarre relationship within the 40k universe.

The grim reaper is the frikin Nightbringer...

It says so in the codex (imprint of death on the races blurb), and lets not forget the Nightbringer couldn't look much more like the grim reaper if he tried.


As for the Void Dragon, the only similarity between the two is in name. In every other aspect they differ, so it's a tenuous link at best.

Yeah I mean it's not like they have the exact same name, and the Eldar have a pronounced tendancy to name units after legendary entities of old.

I mean for god sake man how much more of a link do you want?

We hardly no anything of the Void Dragon I admit but what we do know does link directly with the aircraft.



Is it 100% confirmed? No.

Is there good evidence of a link? IMHO Yes.

Cpt_NinjaPants
15-05-2007, 17:49
40k'd male/female symbols.
And they have that moon blade thingy... I'm not to good with comparasins.

Hellebore
15-05-2007, 18:02
The grim reaper is the frikin Nightbringer...

It says so in the codex (imprint of death on the races blurb), and lets not forget the Nightbringer couldn't look much more like the grim reaper if he tried.



Yeah I mean it's not like they have the exact same name, and the Eldar have a pronounced tendancy to name units after legendary entities of old.

I mean for god sake man how much more of a link do you want?

We hardly no anything of the Void Dragon I admit but what we do know does link directly with the aircraft.



Is it 100% confirmed? No.

Is there good evidence of a link? IMHO Yes.


Well, for a start Void Dragon is the name of the pirate clan, not the vehicle. The aircraft is either a Nightwing or Phoenix.

Hellebore

Rockerfella
15-05-2007, 18:42
Yeah I mean it's not like they have the exact same name, and the Eldar have a pronounced tendancy to name units after legendary entities of old.

I mean for god sake man how much more of a link do you want?

We hardly no anything of the Void Dragon I admit but what we do know does link directly with the aircraft.

Is it 100% confirmed? No.

Is there good evidence of a link? IMHO Yes.

Although it quite clearly states in the current Eldar Codex that the reapers exemplify the war god (Khaine) as Destroyer. They represent an aspect of Khaine. The link would be that when Khaine defeated the nightbringer, and the bringers dermis shattered and fragments melted in the war gods wrath (in turn marking Khaines physical appearance forever with the aspect of the reaper) has more bearing than Kaelis Ra does himself. I think the reapers look the way they do, because everytime Khaine manifested after his fight with the Bringer, he looked like a beefed up Maugan Ra. Similar, but not identical in appearance to the nightbringer.

lets remember that the aspect shrines were founded by mortal individuals, and the reapers were no different. The harvester of souls (Maugan Ra) founded the dark reapers just after the Fall. Immediately so in fact. Thats ten thousand years ago. How old he was at the time of the fall i've no idea, or whether he even knew of the C'tan or the Necrontyr as they were all still 'hybernating' at the time of the fall.

Were all Eldar taught about the war in heaven pre fall? Or were they all too busy with their perfect lifestlyes and their total dominance of the galaxy? I'm guessing that the oldest Eldar knew, and knowledge was kept in councils and 'governments' and such like. Would the average Eldar painting the butterflies in his back garden know of such things? Possibly......

Its possible he independently created this sinister aspect without acknowledgement to Eldar myth, khaine's later physical manifestation or the C'tan.

*clears throat* One can ony take so much 'The c'tan are responsible for everything' in the 4OK universe before one begins to vomit.

Cheers.

Luthien
15-05-2007, 19:01
i would imagine that the eldar were taught about the war in heaven pre fall and maybe even now. the necrons were realistically the only race able to challenge the Eldar Empire

Wraith
15-05-2007, 19:06
Your responding to a post I made two years ago? :eyebrows:

I stand by my point.

Rockerfella
15-05-2007, 20:10
Your responding to a post I made two years ago? :eyebrows:


Well, I didn't drag this thread up from the swamp. *looks around for the culprit* But yes, it does appear that i've responded to a post you made two years ago. As have several others. Is that a problem? :eyebrows: If so.. please explain why? ;)



I stand by my point.

And I stand by mine. ;)

Cheers!

Icewalker
15-05-2007, 22:26
IMO, I don't think so. The solitaires take care of the role of representing she who thirsts as far as I'm concerned. The similarities in their icons are mere coincidence.

Alessander
20-05-2007, 05:51
The slaanesh symbol is a merging of the male and female symbols (also the astrological symbols for mars and venus).

http://www.larivolta.org/female_male_symbol.jpg

The slaanesh symbol wasn't always so curvey, it was more of a direct merging of the two symbols here.

There is a similarity with the DR rune, but the DR rune is also similar to the other aspect symbols as well.

MorkaisChosen
20-05-2007, 10:15
IMO, I don't think so. The solitaires take care of the role of representing she who thirsts as far as I'm concerned. The similarities in their icons are mere coincidence.

The Harlequins are completely seperate from the Craftworld lot...

I think Rockerfella's right. The Nightbringer caused the aspect of the Destroyer to be added to Khaine, and the Dark Reapers embody that Aspect of War.

khirsath
20-05-2007, 17:44
perhaps the two symbols do have an ancient linguistic route. i.e. they both evolved from the symbol for 'reaping'. I don't see it as much of an evolution from reaper of souls to she who thirsts (for souls).

Than again, how many chinese characters look alike but have little or no relation. Given the complexity of the eldar language who could say.

I am not sure that the traditional symbol fo Slaanesh is the one that the eldar use to represent her, so it may not even be of eldar origin

MrBigMr
20-05-2007, 19:16
Well, for a start Void Dragon is the name of the pirate clan, not the vehicle. The aircraft is either a Nightwing or Phoenix.
Void Dragon battleship:
http://www.star-ranger.com/images/BFGEldarVoidDragon.jpg

Void Dragon Pheonix:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/Phoenix-IIb-colSTORE.jpg

Sephiroth
20-05-2007, 20:20
This Eldar mythic cycle is pertinent to the thread, so...

THE BIRTH OF FEAR
There was a time when the Eldar were not riven by fear, and did not live their lives in mortal apprehension of the dark fate that awaited them upon death. A warrior could meet his foeman without a thought for his mortal shell; his soul would live on, reborn as a phoenix from the flame.

In that manner did the Eldar join their gods to wage war against the Yngir, the immortal star-spawn that plagued the universe with their eternal thirst and undying warriors. Their minions, the silvered host, parted like a sea before Khaine's wrath, and his followers, the most battle-hardened of all, blazed a flaming path across the galaxy.

Ulthanash and Eldanesh, noble kings of their houses, fought at Khaine's side. Lanthrilaq the Swift and Jaeriela Thrice-Blessed led their peoples, and none could stand before them.

Then came Kaelis Ra, the Death-bringer. Its rampage stained the stars with blood, and none could stand against it, for it wielded the power of death itself. Populations fell before its scythe, its very gaze slew even the greatest of Eldar heroes. Those that died lost everything, even their souls.
But the gods of the Eldar had strengths other than force of arms. The greatest among the Soul-Dancers had begun to convince the C'tan to turn their hunger inward, to consume their brethren in unholy feasts of star-flesh. Kaelis Ra took its blade to its kin, butchering them without mercy as it had the sons of Isha.

Whilst the Death-bringer sought ever darker ways to slake its unquenchable thirst, Khaine was not idle. He struck a bargain with Vaul the Smith-God; in exchange for Kurnous' and Isha's release from Khaine's dungeons, Vaul would forge one hundred swords for Khaine's war against the Yngir. Thus were born the Swords of Vaul; the Blade-Wraiths.

Khaine led his people to war once more, his rage incandescent, the remnants of his army aflame with the heat of vengeance. A hundred Eldar, each armed with a Blade-Wraith, faced a horde of silvered Necrontyr so vast the horizon glittered with metal bodies in every direction. Yet they knew no dread.
The Eldar fought in a great circle, the Swords of Vaul flashing, and the Necrontyr could not penetrate their defence. The soul-might contained within the swords invigorated their wielders and every blow smashed apart an unholy foe. Khaine was unstoppable, and his warriors fought with the knowledge that their god was pleased.

The battle lasted seven days and seven nights before the Eldar began to fall. The Yngir's servants had found a weak spot in the circle; Lanthrilaq the Swift was tiring, his face pale, his imperfect sword dull and blunt. The ring of warriors buckled and broke, and the ground shook as Khaine bellowed his anger. Vaul had cheated him; one of the swords was lifeless.
From the ground beneath them burst Kaelis Ra, the Nightbringer, and the Eldar fell back for they knew their doom was at hand. With a gesture, Kaelis Ra slew all those near it. With a glance, it condemned the souls of great warriors to an eternity of dust. With a great roar, Khaine levelled his spear and charged.

Scythe and spear clashed over a mound of corpses in a struggle that tore the skies asunder. Khaine's speed and skill was breathtaking, but the Nightbringer was a being of shadow and the Spear of Khaine could not find its mark. Kaelis Ra let its foe exhaust his rage with the patience of death.

Without warning, the Nightbringer swung mightily with his scythe, aiming for Khaine's throat. But Khaine had heeded the counsel of the Laughing God well. As the Nightbringer's form became solid to deliver its blow, Khaine lunged, the tip of his spear driving clean through the Yngir's chest.

Kaelis Ra burst apart in an explosion of silvered shards that nearly cleft Khaine in two as the Yngir's essence tore free of physical form. The silvered warriors around him fell to the earth as the impact spread ever outward, returning to the ground from whence they came. Soon, only Khaine remained, howling his victory.

But victory came at a price. Shards of the Yngir's flesh, driven deep into Khaine's body by the cataclysmic demise of his foe, melted in the fires of the War God's wrath. The silver poison flowed into his bloodstream, forever tainting his physical incarnation with the aspect of the Reaper.
Kaelis Ra cannot truly die, for it is death incarnate. Raging at its defeat, its quintessence howled throughout space, entering every one of the Eldar race and cursing them with the terror of the grave. Thus it was that the seed of the Eldar's downfall was sown, and ultimately, the way of reincarnation was closed to them forever.

Idaan
20-05-2007, 20:38
Void Dragon Pheonix:As in Phoenix bomber belonging to the Void Dragon pirates.;)

This Eldar mythic cycle is pertinent to the thread, so...But what does it have to do with Slaanesh aside from shoehorning away from him/her the responsibility for the end of reincarnation in a very unconvincing way?
I think that the similarity between the two symbols represents the similarity in concepts of Great Enemy, who devours the spirits of the departed and the Reaper, also stylised after the nemesis of the Eldar. It's also interesting how the glyph of the Cegorach is the inversed version of the Slaanesh's symbol, yet doesn't bear any striking similarity to it. So I guess the meaning of runes lies deeper than in their appearance.

MrBigMr
20-05-2007, 20:54
As in Phoenix bomber belonging to the Void Dragon pirates.;)
It's still part of the name, as there's also Pheonix. One has TL Pulse Lasers, the other has TL Star Cannons. Other than that the armament seems to be the same.