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DarkstarSabre
05-10-2005, 21:51
So, the local gaming group here in sunny Hull has a new fantasy player along....

And he brings Ogres.

The question on a lot of our minds now is how to beat these cheerful chap. I suspect this thread may be just as useful to Kahadras as myself so any advice would be nice.

Myself? I'm a Lizardman player (Kahadras is Bretonnians) and we both had the same idea ironically enough when we saw them. Cavalry, lots of Cavalry, both of the normal and flying varieties.

So....am I on the right track?

I'm thinking a unit or two of Saurus Cavalry, some Terradons, some Kroxigor...plenty of Skinks and Swarms as the Core of the army, Oldblood on Carnosaur, Scar Vet on Cold One, Skink Priest and finally, for a smattering of Rare some Salamanders and a Stegadon.

The idea being to outmaneuvere the big fatties and then smack into them- hard!

Kahadras had similar ideas involving Knights, Pegasi and more Knights.

And if you're wondering what this Ogre player fields as his 'standard' army?

Tyrant on Foot
Butcher
2 units of 6 Bulls.
Gnoblars
Gnoblar Trappers.
Rhinox Cavalry.
Yhetees
Gorger

After watching this army dissect a High Elf army with ease.....I feel uncomfortable.

Keller
05-10-2005, 22:17
I have yet to play against the Ogres, but I do play as them. Shooting, particularly of the poison variety can be very deadly for an ogre unit. They rely on toughness rather than armor, so poison darts, crossbow bolt, or handgun rounds are very bad news.

Cavalry only works so long as you can get the charge. A smart ogre player will set up units so that they can flee and/or counter charge you next round. Once your cavalry loses its charge bonus, they are fairly worthless against the strength and number of attacks the ogres dish out, typically at -2 or -3 AS. The general lack of numbers in a cavalry unit means if they don't crush the ogres on the charge, they probably won't hold up in combat without their strength bonus.

Lion El Jason
06-10-2005, 00:41
I tried against this Ogre player today and my Cavalry did nothing...

8 Wild Riders charged and got spanked (Though the 9 attacks the round after did better)

I have found nothing in the whole wood elf army that can hurt his Rhinox Cavalry...


I dont think lots of cavalry will work as you'll have trouble breaking the units on the turn you charge because you'll never kill all the ogres who can fight because they have 3 wounds...
Remember I play woodelves and my army looked slow in comparison.



I found shooting to be effective against them though (Even long range...)
But I killed a unit of 6 Ogres in one turn, all the Yhettees in another and 2 units of 10 archers killed the gorger...
I think I'll go for more shooting next time...

Kahadras
06-10-2005, 00:56
I dunno a full charge from a unit of nine Grail knights is a beautiful thing to behold. I will ignore his fear and get 14 hitting on 3's, strength 6 attacks. That should cause quite a lot of damage by itself. Questing knights are also OK as they to get strength 6 on the charge and more importantly keep that high strtength through any additional rounds of combat. Seen as I don't have much in the way of shooting I will have to take the more direct aproach. Ganging up on a unit with two lances should do enough damage to almost auto break it.
The Pegasus knights and my paladin would be vital in slowing down his units giving me time to maneuver into position to unleash my charges. Basicaly though I really need to weight the combat in my favour to even stand a chance of breaking him and the lady help me if any of my charges are held.

Kahadras

Lion El Jason
06-10-2005, 01:35
The other advice I'd give is kill the greatweapon guys...they were propper bitches.

Cosmic_Girl
06-10-2005, 01:47
Hi all,

Ogres are like onions, they have layers. Chaos Knights are my suggestion, closely followed by any other manner of knight.

C-girl.

Kahadras
06-10-2005, 01:54
Ogres are like onions, they have layers. Chaos Knights are my suggestion, closely followed by any other manner of knight

errr. Could you be more specific please.

Kahadras

Alco Engineer
06-10-2005, 01:59
Maneaters make a right old mess of cavalry. Anyone with those Cathayan long swords will hurt cavalry. Also bring some dispell dice. Those butcher gut spells can be subtle but a right old pain. the +1T spell is very nasty as it takes a unit up to T6!

I only play with VC's so I'm probably not the best for advice for Lizards but try to get big units to outnumber.

Gnoblars I am still yet to see being used effectively. The scrap launcher is scary as it has killing blow but it looks like he doesn't have one.

Also I haven't seen rhinox cavalry in action. SO no advice there other than avoid being charged.

Also keep your numbers up. he causes fear remember so make sure he doesn't outnumber you (and he can with all the wounds counting so be careful)

Cannons and Warp lightning cannons are handy.

I'd also recomend magical missiles. THey's alsways useful.

That's all I can think of at the moment. I've played them a few times (we have 3 ogre player at my local) and watched a few other games. The can be devistating or fall on the behinds. Seems 50/50 and is mostly based on luck (like a scrap launcher and butcher both blowing up in the first turn is one example I have seen of bad ogre luck)

Keller
06-10-2005, 14:57
Bretonnian knights have the advantage of getting a lot of attacks on the charge, due to lance formation. That is about the only way one can hope to reliably break the ogre unit on the charge. A standard ogre unit has 3-4 ogres wide, so you have to do 12 or 15 wounds to not be attacked back. Most knights cannot do that, so atleast one ogre hits back, dealing up to 3 wounds.....

Magic is probably the easiest way to take out ogres. My army tends to have only 1 butcher in 2K, with a Slaughtermaster added at 3. Ogres are just too expensive to load up on characters. This leads to average-at-best magic defeneses, which you could easily overpower, especially as Lizardmen. As much as I hate magic heaviness, I think it might be your best bet.

Of course, you could always just fight fire with fire and bring a bunch of Krox, maybe hire some DoW Ogres, but wheres the fun in that?

Tobias
06-10-2005, 15:03
Mhm my first game vs Ogres I remember

Seaguard, Lorthern Sea guard ^^ they did so great ;) CC isn't the best place to fight ogres, just wait and weaken :)

DarkstarSabre
06-10-2005, 16:31
Right. Worked out a concept list....

It consists of...

Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur (will be gunning for the flanks with him)
Scar Vet on Cold One with Piranha Blade (will be leading the Saurus Cav)
Skink Priest with Diadem of Power (aka- Magic Phase lockdown)

Unit of 4 swarms. Plenty of Wounds, poisoned attacks, fast moving little skirmishers, again aiming for flanks
2 small units of blowpipe Skinks scouting. Slow the advance, harry with blowpipes.
1 large unit of skinks with Javelins- aka Ogre charge bait.

My main 'infantry' block is a unit of 6 Kroxigor with an Ancient. I figure their charge should be sufficiently hard enough.

1 unit of 9 Saurus Cav (will be accompanied by Scar Vet) hoping to go for flanks or small units that creep up.
1 unit of 3 Terradons with Brave- again, flank hunters, poisoned attacks, plenty of s4 close combat attacks. Also should deal with any butchers or hunters that come creeping along.

The plan with this build is simple- use my speed to outmaneuvere the Ogres and fight them on my own terms, with hard hitting units slamming into the flanks. I don't care about the Gnoblars or the Trappers and if I need to I can dispose of them with the Terradons or Skinks rather quickly, or use them as 'overrun' bait.

I could go Magic Heavy but the big concern here is....well...I can't cast a spell to save my life. My magic dice hate me. Honest.

Alco Engineer
07-10-2005, 00:57
Swarms are a great idea to tie him up. Anything that's unbreakable is good for that (I use raised zombie units personally) but swarms are just as good. Good thinking. Use these to tie up hard hitting units (like maneaters)

Kroxigors are a fair fight for an Ogre IMO. They should be able to take them head on. Plus your cold blooded makess passing fear checks for the rest of the army easier than most.

DarkstarSabre
07-10-2005, 10:45
Swarms are a great idea to tie him up. Anything that's unbreakable is good for that (I use raised zombie units personally) but swarms are just as good. Good thinking. Use these to tie up hard hitting units (like maneaters)

Kroxigors are a fair fight for an Ogre IMO. They should be able to take them head on. Plus your cold blooded makess passing fear checks for the rest of the army easier than most.

With the exception of the Skirmishing skinks.....nothing else in the army has to take a fear check...as they cause fear themselves!

leeoaks
07-10-2005, 11:30
the trick is to stop half the army marching....the ogre player has two choices.....split his force......in which case demolish that half.....or move slower....poison him to death....24 shots will kill one ogre a turn just on poison! get rid of all flanking units and then flank the nasty unit!

DarkstarSabre
07-10-2005, 11:58
The Terradons and Scouts will be the things that stop the marching. If he chooses to split his force the other half is easy prey to the Carnosaur, Cold Ones and Kroxigor. I'm reckoning those 3 units would easily punch a hole through the Rhinox Riders, especially if they hit a flank, which the Carnosaur and Cold Ones should be able to do easily.

Kahadras' Brets I reckon could also easily outmaneuvere the Ogres.

The trick is to stop them marching, which we can both do (Terradons & Scouts, Pegasus Knights) and to use superior speed to get round their flanks, again something I reckon we could both do. Though Ogres are fast (M6 I believe) Cavalry units and skirmishers will always be faster.

DisturbeD_
07-10-2005, 14:45
i don't supose this would help but a lord with a wepon which does multiple wounds in a unit to take some of the beating he would while he rips through the ogres but im not sure if every army has acces to those wepons

DarkstarSabre
07-10-2005, 14:59
i don't supose this would help but a lord with a wepon which does multiple wounds in a unit to take some of the beating he would while he rips through the ogres but im not sure if every army has acces to those wepons

That would be the Piranha Blade, which the Cold One mounted Scar Veteran is armed with. Yes he's not the Lord (Oldblood) but with the Oldblood having 5 attacks base, being mounted on a large, fast moving, Blood-Frenzying Carnosaur and already equipped with the Sword of Might (for a S6 Saurus) and the Aura of Quetzl (4+ Ward save against S5 or more? Yes please!) I felt the scar vet needed it more.

Besides, with the Scar Vet being in the Cold One unit....4 attacks, S5, double the wounds inflicted. Potential 8 wounds a turn from the Scar Vet!

made_of_metal
07-10-2005, 15:54
If you want to tool up to kill ogres it is not that hard. The army has some flaws that anyone, especially lizards can exploit.

Although I would leave the carnasaur behind. The ogres have means to take down lage monsters. Like a Tyrant with the tenderizer. Or a hunter.
But your list might also end up with a very frustrated ogre player as it is built to tear him appart and not let him ever see combat on his terms. Makes for a frustrating battle. I always recommend using your base list with maybe some minor changes, like a different unit here and a useful magic item there.

but with skinks do watch out for yhetees. they are fast and run through terrain.

ps. Do you have marks of topek in there? Cause 2 butchers will still be getting spells off vs only 5 dispell dice.

DarkstarSabre
07-10-2005, 16:31
I always recommend using your base list with maybe some minor changes, like a different unit here and a useful magic item there.

.

Welcome to my base list. The only thing different there is the swapping out of a Stegadon for some Cold Ones and a Salamander or two for some Terradons. And yes, normally my tactics are designed for combat to be on my terms and nothing else. What you see if basically my normal list tweaked a bit....I don;t take Saurus because they're slow, expensive and thus far have done very little to prove their worth to me.

Leave the Carnosaur behind? Tempting but I'm going with a big fat resounding 'no' there. It's one of the faster elements of the army, capable of negating ranks on its own and the fact it causes Terror means I'm forcing the Ogres to take fear tests for a change. Hunters or Tyrants with Tenderisers? There's ways of dealing with those- first, getting the charge myself will do it, secondly let's not forget the Saurus Oldblood sat on top of the 'saur with his happy number of S6 attacks. And then there's always the Terradons to harry lone hunters with plenty of poison and a hit and run or two.

2 butchers? Funny, he only fielded one last time and I suspect he normally only fields one (very character light) simply to put the Rhinox riders in. Spawnings of Topek aren't really needed. Besides which, the spawning of Quetzl I suspect will pay off a lot better against the Ogres.

The yhetees I suspect will probably be the biggest problem, being fast through whatever terrain but it's also worth noting they move as a unit, not skirmishers. In this way the skinks will still outmaneuvere them, constantly peppering them with poison.

made_of_metal
07-10-2005, 19:46
Well I am glad to hear that you are using you normal army. It is one thing to take some stuff that would be good vs an enemy and another to build the whole thing to crush just them.
Mind you I love my saurus warriors. They never fail me unless the odds are horribly against them. I could see them standing up to a bull charge. Mind you I also like the temple guard, a unit that many people would never use.
And there are ways to deal with anything and I was just warning of his ways to deal with your carnasaur.
Overall I would say that the lizards have an easy time with ogres. Don't think you have much to worry about as the army you are taking won't give the ogres much of a chance.

Sotek
07-10-2005, 22:45
Myself? I'm a Lizardman player (Kahadras is Bretonnians) and we both had the same idea ironically enough when we saw them. Cavalry, lots of Cavalry, both of the normal and flying varieties.


Use skinks with blowpipes, lots of them. No armour = dead ogres. Also try a Jaguar Saurus of Doom. [scar vet, charm, gr8 wep, sotek & tzalacotl]. That should do some hurt.

some guy
08-10-2005, 15:03
What should dwarves do with ogres?
gyro/rangers to slow them down and lots of missles and warmachines?

Akuma
08-10-2005, 15:16
The real problem is that every non dragon non flying circus army will have trouble with ogres in friendly games. This is mostly determined by the fact that thay can side for anything out there exept for mentioned above. You all talk about typical Ogre tournament army BUT - what if Ogre player sides for you :D ??? - Dwarfs ??? easy - takes two gorgers - ties up regs and goes for warmashines - empire - can get lods of gnoblars and scrap lunchas - we - take rhinoox cav.

The bottom line is that every army out there has strenghts and weeknes and whatever you may think wfb is balanced ( apart for few armys ) so that everyone has a chance aginst another players - with siding for specific opponent concider his model range also ( if you play non prox ) and his favorite style - this usualy gives much better efrects than asking how am i supposed to beat my friends XXX :D - tell us how you'r opponent plays and what he can put on the table and we'll tell you how to counter his Tactics - because wfb is all about countering tactics and not army lists ;) ( its no MtG :D )

DarkstarSabre
08-10-2005, 19:18
what if Ogre player sides for you :D ???

Hopefully the game would be more interesting then. Currently he uses Rhinox riders, doesn't bother bringing the rules so his opponents can see what they are....all in all I hope he does decide to side for me....it'd be more of a challenge.

samw
08-10-2005, 22:52
Brets are the bane of ogres. The lance only ever gets into B2B with 6 (4 if you wanna play that way) and the knights are both harder and faster. Brets most likely get 1/2 ranks, standard and out number to Ogre's standard BEFORE combat starts. A lance of 9 errants with the errantry banner would do you very well. My friend and most played opponent played Ogres for a while, he never beat my Brets for just this reason.

Akuma
08-10-2005, 22:58
He just didnt use the flee tactic :D - he flees and then sticks another unit in you'r large flank - Ogre almost always has more unit than you have lances aND he packs more magic punch then bret do ( 2d6 s2 no as hits or panic test ) :D - I have neer opposite record i beat my bret friend 2 times of 3 and he usualy gets to top 3 in any given tournament ;)

samw
08-10-2005, 23:25
Eh, I've got five DD and three scrolls, MR 1 on two of the units, four units of knights and a hippogryph Lord. I'd simply line up each of these five hammers against five of his units and let rip. What could he do, flee with all five? Maybe it wasn't Brets, just my Brets!