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View Full Version : Imperium itself is a heresy.



Vesica
04-03-2008, 23:08
I was just thinking about the Imperium and its beliefs and so on and realised something, they say that to go against the Emperor and his laws is heresy.

So why does the base beliefs of the Imperium the most heretical thing there is? they worship the Emperor as a god even though he said he did not have a place for religion and godworship in his Imperium. This then god me thinking about why he wanted no religion and i believe that if people didnt worship him as a god then a fair few wouldnt believe he is ignoring them when they pray to him and start to worship the false gods in the warp.

So basically i want to know peoples opinion on the imperium and its heresy? i personally cant understand why the SM and the remaining Primarchs let this happen and did/do nothing.

icegreentea
04-03-2008, 23:31
There are no primarchs left. Pretty much the only living thing old enough to remember the "old" imperium is probably bjorg (or however you spell it) of the space wolves, maybe some random magos in the AM that is PART of mars by now, and some a bunch of scribes stuck in the deepest archives of terra.

So really, there's no one really left to point out that the current Imperium is 'doing it wrong'. Many of the SM chapters still worship the Emperor as the greatest man ever (not as a god), but would gladly leave the rest of humanity alone (blind faith in the emperor seems to do pretty well). Theres a reason why the deification of the Emperor was so 'successful'. Namely that it worked to preserve the Imperium.

And such is part of the GRIM DARKNESS of the distant future. There are essentially two imperiums. The Old one, the one that preached the Imperial Truth, and the New one, the one that preaches the Holy Word of the Emperor. They fullfill the same role (to ensure the survival of humanity against the xenos and corruption), but outside of that they are largely different and unrelated.

Lord Malice
05-03-2008, 00:02
What you're assuming is that the Emperor wasn't in fact telling a bit of a porky and that the Heresy wasn't engineered by the Emperor.

Afterall, what's the best way to get someone to do something; tell them not to.

Personally I think the Emperor made it possible for the Heresy to happen. When Horus sees the vortex that disperses the Primarchs throughout time and space the implication is that the Emperor could have intervened but chose not to, which makes Horus think that He's a liar who wants to be a god, that He's unfit to rule the Imperium and sets in motion the series of events that give rise to the Cult of the Emperor; just as the shamans coelesced into the Emperor the Emperor's ultimate goal is to become the Starchild and make the Big Four apart of Himself, banishing Chaos, calming the Warp and ensuring mankind's dominance of the galaxy.

Remember, everything you have been told, is a lie.

Vesica
05-03-2008, 00:33
but then that means your lying, so where does that leave me? lol

Lord Malice
05-03-2008, 00:38
What it means is that the background is open to interpretation; the reference, if you didn't get it, is from Inquisitor.

Lisiecki
05-03-2008, 00:58
Yes, it is. I dont think that any one is ever going to say that the Imperium is a "good" place, but it keeps people relitivly safe from Choas, the Necrons, and all the other assorted horrible things.
Personally i can't remember the "imperial truth" thing in the background before the HH novels, but hey, i could be wrong. Also, ive said it a million times, and ill say it a million more (because no one actually reads my posts)


to be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. This is the tale of those times.Forget the power of technology, science and common humanity. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for there is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter and the laughter of thirsting gods.







I was just thinking about the Imperium and its beliefs and so on and realised something, they say that to go against the Emperor and his laws is heresy.

So why does the base beliefs of the Imperium the most heretical thing there is? they worship the Emperor as a god even though he said he did not have a place for religion and godworship in his Imperium. This then god me thinking about why he wanted no religion and i believe that if people didnt worship him as a god then a fair few wouldnt believe he is ignoring them when they pray to him and start to worship the false gods in the warp.

So basically i want to know peoples opinion on the imperium and its heresy? i personally cant understand why the SM and the remaining Primarchs let this happen and did/do nothing.

Lord Malice
05-03-2008, 01:04
Personally i can't remember the "imperial truth" thing in the background before the HH novels, but hey, i could be wrong.
It wouldn't need to be. Whatever the Emperor did or did not say, whatever His original intentions they are almost irrelevent to the working of the current Imperium; except for all those secret wars which claim millions of lives and the loss of worlds and entire systems!

icegreentea
05-03-2008, 01:11
Personally i can't remember the "imperial truth" thing in the background before the HH novels, but hey, i could be wrong.

It's mentioned, but not as the "Imperial Truth". Something about the Emperor promoting science, disliking religion, and not wanting to be a God. Caused some problems from the very beginning when he struck a deal with Mars. Machine-GOD and all.

Lisiecki
05-03-2008, 01:13
Well it would for it to be a "heresy" that the wrighters have been working on for 10ish years.
Honestly, the highlords of Terra are most likely like any other political/religious leaders. There sure that THEY know whats right, and that they are interpreting the emperors wishes in the right way, and that everyone else is wrong.
The space maries, as a whole, dont seem to have any real interaction with normal humans, other than swooping in to save them from whatever baddy is attacking. The exceptions to this are the Salamanders and the UltraMarines, and i would assume that at last for people in UltraMarine space they get the "truth" about histroy because
A) Ultramarines are one of two chapters with the most direct contact with people
B) Robby was known to wright down lots of things, its not to much of a leap to assume he wrote down what the Emperor was "Really" like


It wouldn't need to be. Whatever the Emperor did or did not say, whatever His original intentions they are almost irrelevent to the working of the current Imperium; except for all those secret wars which claim millions of lives and the loss of worlds and entire systems!

chris.seraphim
05-03-2008, 09:34
I can get my teeth into this - this might get a bit long winded, but ill try to answer as fully as my rather dated knowledge will allow. Im reading between the lines, and giving a personal spin on those fluff 'facts' that I know.

I'll admit, I may get the sequence of events a little wrong, and may jump over a few hundred/thousand years with an 'ad next...' but you'll get the picture.

IMHO -

In the aftermath of the Horus Heresy, the majority of the Astartes and of course, the surviving Primarchs were busy chasing the renegades to their long term homes in the Ocularis Terrabilis and the Maelstrom and the death of the Emperor and Malcador (lets not forget the importance of the damned pen-pusher!) left a mighty power vacuum at the heart of the Imperium.

Now, having held off the Word Bearers with much less loss than that sustained by those legions who fought at Terra, and also being larger in the first place, the Ultramarines under Guillimann got their portion of the galaxy under control a tad quicker than the Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, White Scars and Imperial Fists could do, with their numbers depleted by the Terra campaign.

This allowed Guilliman to work on hisd Magnum Opus, the Codex Astartes as well as schmooze with those 'civilians' who held power in the Imperium. Guilliman, along with many of these men believed that the Heresy was largely predicated by the aggregation of power in the hands of one man - the Warmaster, and to avoid such a large scale rebellion in future, then power must be divided into smaller fiefs, and importantly, rmeoved from the hands of the Astartes and the Primarchs.

This led to the Space Marine Legions being split up into their current Chapter size of 1000 active warriors, the Imperial Army being split into the Guard and ther Navy and the legislative rule of the Imperium being handed to the civilians, thereafter designated the High Lord of Terra.

This arrangement sat poorly with some of the Primarchs, most notably Russ, Dorn and Khan and tensions were high fotr a periodk, that perhaps a new civil war woudl rend the human universe apart - even to the point of Dorn's flagship, tha Phalanx being fired upon by the Imperial Navy.

So the High Lords - short lived men of political power, with all that that entails took power, and the Astartes were stripped of power.

HOWEVER, at this point in time, the Imperial Creed still held, as it still is by Astartes, althouigh with the Emperors enthronement in the Golden Throne and his palopable psychic defense of the human race , his martyrdom accelerated the growth of the Lectitio Devinactus (or however you spell it) so that it soon became (arguably) a majority faith within the Imperium.

At some piont, the High Lords decided (out of political expediency or their own religious bias perhaps) to overturn the Emperors DIRECT AND EXPLICIT WISHES and to make the official religion of the Imperium, that of the Lectitio - explicitly that the Emperor is in fact divine, and omnipresent and watches over the souls of all mankind, from his undeath on the Golden Throne.
This became the Eccleasiarchy, and eventually spawned it's military wing, the Adeptus Sororitas.

This is one, continuing reason for the distrust between the High Lords and the Astartes - the Astartes (as a rule, this is more true for the original Chapters than for those founded more recently) still hold to the Imperial Creed, in that they revere the Emperor as a great man and leader, alongside their father-like devotion to the (memory of) their Primarch and hence regard those who follow the Ecclesiarchal faith to be weak minded simpletons.

SO - the current state of affairs in the Imperium is one of political expediency where the founding precepts of the Imperium - a secukar society, designed for each human to fulfil their potential free of the trammels of religious or alien subjugation. Nowadays (M40, 999) the High Lords hold onto power BASED on the very religious subjugation the Great Crusade was fought to stop - sure, the alien threat uis kept at bay, but the average human is weighed down with a false religious faith, kept from fulfilling their potential my the massive weight of dogma, administration and suspicion that inhabits the Imperium.

It's pretty safe to say, that for all the Emperor is worshipped, if he woke up and walked off the throne, he'd be REALLY pissed.....

I think that would be a very interesting story development, but as we all know, it is NEVER gonna happen.

Tommygun
05-03-2008, 09:46
Something like this happened with Lenin and his tomb. A cult of personality started and became a quasi religion in an atheistic culture. Imagine if communism had not fallen in USSR and over thousands of years it could have become a full religion. I think when people don't have a god based religion they substitute some other "faith" or dogma. I believe people have a need to believe in something bigger than themselves.

Dragonlv8
05-03-2008, 09:53
Your face is a heresy.
Sorry Just had to do that, no offence intended, we do that kind off stuff all the time at school.

Back on topic, I have nothing much to say except then that if the imperium is the heresy then Chaos needs inqusitors...

chris.seraphim
05-03-2008, 10:04
Something like this happened with Lenin and his tomb. A cult of personality started and became a quasi religion in an atheistic culture. Imagine if communism had not fallen in USSR and over thousands of years it could have become a full religion. I think when people don't have a god based religion they substitute some other "faith" or dogma. I believe people have a need to believe in something bigger than themselves.

Yes, they do and it';s weak and pathetric and we need to get over it. That's just my personal opinion. Organised religion is the biggest evil mankind has ever foisted on itself - it seems to me that (at least the original) GW writers shared that opinion.

It's very similar to what actually happened with Christianity, where Jesus was actually justa guy who preached love and consideration to his fellow men, and was put to death by the Jewish hierarcgy for getting too popular - his church got really popular after his death (martyrdom'll do that for you!) and spread throughout the roman empire, eventually taking root in Rome itself.

Now this touchy-feely religion didn't lend itself to conferring power on it's priests (which is after all the point, no?) and it didn't get a lot of pagan converts, until they invented some festivals, shifted the dates around so they fitted in with the pagan festivals and created a new idea that Jesus was in fact the Son of God - conferring divine power on his priests (and eventually leading to the Feudal system and Divine Right in medieval Europe.)

This eventually led to a Church where its 'priests' had (have) the right to damn anyone to an eternal torment in hell, and deny them 'eternal life' fior disagreeing with them. There is NOTHING in the bible about Confession, plenary indulgence or any of that - it was all done to accrue power to the priesthood and the monarchs who sponsored them and keep the people stupid, obedient and under control.

I see a few parallels there with what GW have inferred about the Imperial Cult.....

-------

Oh, and thats just my personal opinion on the growth of the Christian Church, I do not mean to belittle anyone's beliefs etc. so please don't flame me or take offense, it is not intended.

Just to clarify, I have no problem with the concept of God, or gods, but when their words are apprently applied through the mouths and minds of fallible men, corruption is inevitable, so like I said above, organised religion (ANY organised religion, I can unload all over Islam, Judaism, or whatever just as much) is a heinous evil.....

But again, I'm not meaning to offend any faithful types, so please don't take offense, just write me off as a damned heretic......

kryptt
05-03-2008, 12:29
That kinda seemed like my take on the imperium too.

Templar-Sun
05-03-2008, 14:09
All you need to know my sons is, The Emperor Protects!!


Templar-Sun

sigur
05-03-2008, 14:35
Hypocrisy is an essential part of the Imperium's fluff and about a basic aspect of every kind of totalitarian/religious regime.

Tyron
05-03-2008, 14:39
The whole point of the Great Crusade was to unite mankind, defeat chaos and esnure it's survival while enlightening man with science and logic.

All apart the latter has been achieved.

chris.seraphim
05-03-2008, 15:52
The whole point of the Great Crusade was to unite mankind, defeat chaos and esnure it's survival while enlightening man with science and logic.

All apart the latter has been achieved.


Are you quite mental?

Unite mankind? - I guess were imagining all those renegades in the Maelstrom and the Eye of Terror, all those empires involving humans just out of reach of the astronomican, all those worlds that rebel or attempt to cecede EVERY YEAR, not to mention those who are throwing their lot in with the Tau....

Defeat Chaos? - you cannot defeat Chaos, merely keep it at bay, and Chaos have been a cinstant, clear and present danger to the Imperium from the start, and with the defences of Cadia crumbling, the threat from the EoT is increasing exponentially.
If you like your conspiracies, the majority of the Imperium is riddled with Chaos corruption, right to the top of the Ministorum and the Guard, so I don't think Chaos is anywhere NEAR defetaed in a galaxy full of superstition, excess, disease, political intrigue, war and deception.

Ensure it's survival? - Nothing is insured - the Chaos forces held in the EoT for ten millenia are breaking out, the bond between the Astartes and the Imperium is weaker than ever, the Necrons have awoken, the Tyranids are here, the Orks are massing and the Tau are in the ascendancy. Nothing is ensured, the Imperium has slipped into entropy and only something titanic can pull it back from the brink.

By your criteria, the Great Crusade has failed on EVERY level, it's just taken 10'000 years for the wheels to fall right off.

Templar-Sun
05-03-2008, 17:32
Chris, as of now YOU are under Chaos suspicion. Repent!! Name the Emperor as your one and only true protector and you shall be SAVED...

(strolls of humming battle hymns dedicated to the only true protector)

Templar-Sun

IainC
05-03-2008, 18:09
Imagine this.

The Great Crusade was all about spreading secular truth. There were no gods, no demons, no magicians or spirit-callers. Reason and enlightenment would prevail. Sounds pretty skippy so far.

Then the Horus Heresy suddenly brought to everyone's attention that there were gods and they were old and powerful. Also there were magicians and daemons and malign spirits that came from the void. That's going to rock your happy little boat a bit isn't it? Then miracles start occurring in the name of the most powerful guy you have on your side. People start praying to the one being who might even possibly be bigger and badder than the big bad gods who have crawled from between the cracks in reality. Everyone's world is being turned upside down and suddenly religion based on someone who - to be honest - is pretty godlike in every conceivable way doesn't seem so far fetched. The fact that he doesn't just die when 'killed' would tend to cement the basis for that belief.

EarthAndAllStars
05-03-2008, 20:04
Imagine this.

The Great Crusade was all about spreading secular truth. There were no gods, no demons, no magicians or spirit-callers. Reason and enlightenment would prevail. Sounds pretty skippy so far.

Then the Horus Heresy suddenly brought to everyone's attention that there were gods and they were old and powerful. Also there were magicians and daemons and malign spirits that came from the void. That's going to rock your happy little boat a bit isn't it? Then miracles start occurring in the name of the most powerful guy you have on your side. People start praying to the one being who might even possibly be bigger and badder than the big bad gods who have crawled from between the cracks in reality. Everyone's world is being turned upside down and suddenly religion based on someone who - to be honest - is pretty godlike in every conceivable way doesn't seem so far fetched. The fact that he doesn't just die when 'killed' would tend to cement the basis for that belief.

I'd say that this was the Emperor's fatal flaw in his plan. He knew that there were gods, the mystical, supernatural, and demons, and he hid this fact from his most loyal followers. His proclamation of a secular universe was as dogmatic as any religious creed could ever be.

The Emperor was not a nice guy trying to bring science and rationality to everyone. He was a powerful hungry warlord who created genetic supermen to subjugate free societies to his will.

GW writers obviously take a shot at organized religion, but they also take a shot at a completely, secular, and "rational" worldview as well--as being shortsighted. I'd argue that the 40K universe is a post-modern critique of society and history dealing with meta-narratives and subjective truth claims.

Imperialis_Dominatus
05-03-2008, 20:31
Basically, though the Emperor didn't want to be a god, by political power-mongering, the division of power after the Heresy, and the phenomenal rise of the Cult of the Savior Emperor and all the reform and bloodshed that followed, the Emperor is a de facto god now anyway. Not much anyone can do about it.


This arrangement sat poorly with some of the Primarchs, most notably Russ, Dorn and Khan

I'm just going to nitpick a bit. It was Vulkan (according to the BT Codex), and Khan sided with Big Blue Boy.

Phunting
05-03-2008, 22:53
Yes it is. That's kinda the whole point...

sainthale1988
06-03-2008, 09:54
By your criteria, the Great Crusade has failed on EVERY level, it's just taken 10'000 years for the wheels to fall right off.

exactly what we were told at the end of legion with the prophesy that if the emperor (blessed be his name) won the war against horus (which he did) then chaos would 'win' in the long run (10 000 to 20 000 years :eek: were running out of time!).

They forgot one thing: 'only one force in the galaxy has a chance to repel such a deomonic infestation, the chamber militant of the ordo maleus: THE GREY KNIGHTS!!!' :angel:

weissengel86
06-03-2008, 23:53
Yes, they do and it';s weak and pathetric and we need to get over it. That's just my personal opinion. Organised religion is the biggest evil mankind has ever foisted on itself - it seems to me that (at least the original) GW writers shared that opinion.

It's very similar to what actually happened with Christianity, where Jesus was actually justa guy who preached love and consideration to his fellow men, and was put to death by the Jewish hierarcgy for getting too popular - his church got really popular after his death (martyrdom'll do that for you!) and spread throughout the roman empire, eventually taking root in Rome itself.

Now this touchy-feely religion didn't lend itself to conferring power on it's priests (which is after all the point, no?) and it didn't get a lot of pagan converts, until they invented some festivals, shifted the dates around so they fitted in with the pagan festivals and created a new idea that Jesus was in fact the Son of God - conferring divine power on his priests (and eventually leading to the Feudal system and Divine Right in medieval Europe.)

This eventually led to a Church where its 'priests' had (have) the right to damn anyone to an eternal torment in hell, and deny them 'eternal life' fior disagreeing with them. There is NOTHING in the bible about Confession, plenary indulgence or any of that - it was all done to accrue power to the priesthood and the monarchs who sponsored them and keep the people stupid, obedient and under control.

I see a few parallels there with what GW have inferred about the Imperial Cult.....

-------

Oh, and thats just my personal opinion on the growth of the Christian Church, I do not mean to belittle anyone's beliefs etc. so please don't flame me or take offense, it is not intended.

Just to clarify, I have no problem with the concept of God, or gods, but when their words are apprently applied through the mouths and minds of fallible men, corruption is inevitable, so like I said above, organised religion (ANY organised religion, I can unload all over Islam, Judaism, or whatever just as much) is a heinous evil.....

But again, I'm not meaning to offend any faithful types, so please don't take offense, just write me off as a damned heretic......


this is an example of an ignorant opinion since there is no evidence to back up your claims i also suggest you stick to 40k and not overtly insult people on here.
Your claims are an example of ignorance just as evil as you claim "organized religion" is.
If your going to make such a claim in something like this i suggest you back it up with fact not historical ignorance.
I can provide you with evidence that proves christianity was the same at the beginning as it is now

dr.oetk3r
06-03-2008, 23:59
this is an example of an ignorant opinion since there is no evidence to back up your claims i also suggest you stick to 40k and not overtly insult people on here.
Your claims are an example of ignorance just as evil as you claim "organized religion" is.
If your going to make such a claim in something like this i suggest you back it up with fact not historical ignorance.
I can provide you with evidence that proves christianity was the same at the beginning as it is now

QFT

and Rome killed Jesus...

Corax
08-03-2008, 10:21
I like a good stoush about religion as much as the next atheist, but let's not go anywhere near the whole Christianity question, or we'll be banished to P&R before we know whats happening.

Sticking to the question of the reverence of the Emperor as a God, I have always viewed it as being the great irony that in the midst of achieving his great goal of uniting humanity under the banner of a single regime based on secularism and science, the end result is that humanity is as divided as ever, entrapped in superstition and religious dogmatism, and worshiping a man who did not want to be a God as being one - basically the total opposite of what the Emperor intended. Perhaps the message is that it is part of human nature to sabotage ourselves (which is represented by Chaos), and that the best we can do is to try to keep our self-destructive impulses under control as much as possible. :eyebrows:

@Imperialis_Dominatus: Vulkan would have had no reason to object to the dissolution of the Legions, as the Salamanders were always the smallest legion, and by the end of the Heresy they did not have enough marines left to need to divide up into Chapters (which is why they have never spawned any Successor Chapters, ref: Apocrypha of Davio). IIRC, the ones who objected most vehemently were Russ, Dorn, Jaghati Khan, Guilliman was for it (obviously), Ferrus Mannus was dead, Sanguinius was dead, and (to my knowledge) there has been no mention of the opinions of Corax (he was probably in his tower cutting himself), the Lion (who was probably more concerned with the situation on Caliban), and Vulkan. Then again, I wouldn't put it past GW to be inconsistent on this! :rolleyes:

Yodhrin
08-03-2008, 13:45
I'd say that this was the Emperor's fatal flaw in his plan. He knew that there were gods, the mystical, supernatural, and demons, and he hid this fact from his most loyal followers. His proclamation of a secular universe was as dogmatic as any religious creed could ever be.

The Emperor was not a nice guy trying to bring science and rationality to everyone. He was a powerful hungry warlord who created genetic supermen to subjugate free societies to his will.

GW writers obviously take a shot at organized religion, but they also take a shot at a completely, secular, and "rational" worldview as well--as being shortsighted. I'd argue that the 40K universe is a post-modern critique of society and history dealing with meta-narratives and subjective truth claims.

That's the point though; they're NOT supernatural, mystical or daemonic. It's put well in one of the HH books(don't ask me to remember which one); warp creatures are simply another breed of Xenos, ie, a non-human entity. Initially words such as "daemon" were used simply because the warp-xenos resemble beings from Humanities myths and legends, and they do so simply because of relationship between the material and immaterial realms. They are vampiric in nature; drawing sustenance from our actions, especially the violent, perverse and terminal ones, and seek to encourage such acts, however if those actions became the driving force of the galaxy they would eventually starve themselves.

The warp is psycho-active, it responds to visceral emotions, reactions and events in our realm, and some of it's energy is able to be drawn into ours. Because the warp is essentially pure energy shaped by our own emotions and fears, often the manifestation of that energy resembles "magic", but it's no more magical than cancer therapies because there is an evidenced scientific theory which explains it.

That's the main reason I enjoy the HH books, the undercurrent of tragedy inherent in the story. The Emperor was a singular being with vast knowledge and a vision for humanity which would have united everyone in a common cause and established probably the greatest society ever, but at the end of the day, it was our own base nature, our subconscious fear of the darkness and the unknown, which ended that great vision. Not only that, but the final turning point was when the nature of the vision itself was turned against the Emperor when Horus was persuaded that he was attempting to attain Godhood.

heretics bane
08-03-2008, 14:18
The imperium was severly distablised after the HH so people needed some one big,strong and powerful figure head to give them hope in the aftermath: que Emporer.

And like the four chaos gods i think the emporer dos get a boost from people worshipping him, but during the great crusade people with radical ideas where being stamped out and deamons and chaos gods where starting to be forgotten about, no knowledge emans no cults to feed the chaos gods so they started to feel how great a threat the imperium is.

Brother Valtarius
08-03-2008, 18:58
Right firstly it is my belief that religion is and always has been a way of controlling people, and im sure i have read somewhere before thats exactally how the eccalstarcy or however you spell it came about. After the Emporers death the imperium was in tatters people scared, destroyed what not and the powers to be needed to restore order and utter compliance so they let the church of the emporer grow, this way they could still control people.

And basically from reading the HH novels nobody but the tops***ts e.g emporer knew about the powers of the warp such as the gods (read the novels there is actually very little understanding of the warp even among astartes). So basically half the space marines just broke away rampaged round the galaxy in the name of the chaos gods. maybe the powers after the emporer gave their people a god to believe in so that they wouldn't go looking for a god elsewhere and become a threat to the imperium. This could also explain why they would hate xeno cults on almost the same par as they do the daemonic.

killstreak
08-03-2008, 20:55
Oh, and thats just my personal opinion on the growth of the Christian Church, I do not mean to belittle anyone's beliefs etc. so please don't flame me or take offense, it is not intended.

so you rag on christians and then you politely ask none of them flame you? :eyebrows:

Brother Siccarius
08-03-2008, 21:21
I just wanted to touch on a couple of things.

Hypocrisy is an essential part of the Imperium's fluff and about a basic aspect of every kind of totalitarian/religious regime.

.....and every free and open regime, and every neutral regime, and every human being.
=============
But then, we were talking about heresy, which would be entirely the wrong word if the Emperor wasn't considered a god. Calling the Imperium "Heretical" is using their words to describe them, which is kinda hypocritical in it's own right.
=============
Saying that the Emperor was trying to become a god is negating or ignoring the facts. We know that he was trying to, at least partially, remove humanity from the warp, which involved his study into the webway.
He didn't reveal the existence of the chaos gods to humanity, which would have only given more power to them as it does now that everyone knows a little about them. Fear feeds them only more, and those looking for quick power were always there.
The Emperor (or Horus's vision of the him, we know not which) seemed fairly powerless to stop the warp vortex that sucked the primarchs through the warp, though Horus seemed to believe that he had the power to stop it but chose not to. Which in it's own way was a sound tactical maneuver for the Emperor as he was attempting to reunite humanity, get a few staging points ahead of you with already loyal forces waiting and make your sons men of the people at the same time. The idea was shared by the Ceasars who would send their sons out into the corners of the earth to teach them about it.
===================
Most of what the Imperium is now is more of a direct result of the Age of Apostacy and the Imperial power shuffle that went on after Vandire's death. When both the Ecclisiarchy and the High Lords went through a few changes, declared a few edicts, and had a good old time at jumping for the Empeor's Golden Halo for themselves.

Imperialis_Dominatus
08-03-2008, 21:55
@Imperialis_Dominatus: Vulkan would have had no reason to object to the dissolution of the Legions, as the Salamanders were always the smallest legion, and by the end of the Heresy they did not have enough marines left to need to divide up into Chapters

I see. More GW inconsistencies. I kinda rolled my eyes at it too (Drop Site Massacre and all), but it was in the book, so I assumed GW did some proofreading. Silly of me.

I have heard of Succesor Chapters to Salamanders though, perhaps I'm just remembering fanfic.


so you rag on christians and then you politely ask none of them flame you? :eyebrows:

this is an example of an ignorant opinion since there is no evidence to back up your claims i also suggest you stick to 40k and not overtly insult people on here.
Your claims are an example of ignorance just as evil as you claim "organized religion" is.
If your going to make such a claim in something like this i suggest you back it up with fact not historical ignorance.
I can provide you with evidence that proves christianity was the same at the beginning as it is now

QFT

and Rome killed Jesus...

Let's not. His opinion (as long as you read past the first sentence instead of jumping to 'poast!') is something I've heard some evidence for, and he's entitled to it. He probably should not have discussed that here, but it's done, and you guys should have known better than to continue the discussion. I'd rather not see another discussion closed down.

Note: I'm a Christian, in case you're wondering.


Yes, they do and it';s weak and pathetric and we need to get over it. That's just my personal opinion. Organised religion is the biggest evil mankind has ever foisted on itself - it seems to me that (at least the original) GW writers shared that opinion.

It's very similar to what actually happened with Christianity, where Jesus was actually justa guy who preached love and consideration to his fellow men, and was put to death by the Jewish hierarcgy for getting too popular - his church got really popular after his death (martyrdom'll do that for you!) and spread throughout the roman empire, eventually taking root in Rome itself.

Now this touchy-feely religion didn't lend itself to conferring power on it's priests (which is after all the point, no?) and it didn't get a lot of pagan converts, until they invented some festivals, shifted the dates around so they fitted in with the pagan festivals and created a new idea that Jesus was in fact the Son of God - conferring divine power on his priests (and eventually leading to the Feudal system and Divine Right in medieval Europe.)

This eventually led to a Church where its 'priests' had (have) the right to damn anyone to an eternal torment in hell, and deny them 'eternal life' fior disagreeing with them. There is NOTHING in the bible about Confession, plenary indulgence or any of that - it was all done to accrue power to the priesthood and the monarchs who sponsored them and keep the people stupid, obedient and under control.

I see a few parallels there with what GW have inferred about the Imperial Cult.....

-------

Oh, and thats just my personal opinion on the growth of the Christian Church, I do not mean to belittle anyone's beliefs etc. so please don't flame me or take offense, it is not intended.

Just to clarify, I have no problem with the concept of God, or gods, but when their words are apprently applied through the mouths and minds of fallible men, corruption is inevitable, so like I said above, organised religion (ANY organised religion, I can unload all over Islam, Judaism, or whatever just as much) is a heinous evil.....

But again, I'm not meaning to offend any faithful types, so please don't take offense, just write me off as a damned heretic......

Admittedly, you could have been more tactful, and this discussion is not suited for P&R.

Corax
09-03-2008, 10:01
I see. More GW inconsistencies. I kinda rolled my eyes at it too (Drop Site Massacre and all), but it was in the book, so I assumed GW did some proofreading. Silly of me.

Actually, quite a few things have been deliberately changed over the years. A lot of the fluff from the Rogue Trader era has been dropped or re-written in line with more recent editions. An example of this is the Crimson Fists, which were originally one of the 20 Legions (hence being on the cover of Rogue Trader, but were later downgraded to being a First Founding successor of the Imperial Fists.


I have heard of Successor Chapters to Salamanders though, perhaps I'm just remembering fanfic.

It has been hinted at on a couple of occasions that there may be Salamander successors (such as the Black Dragons), but it has never been more than speculation. According to the Mythos Angelica Mortis (my previous reference was wrong), under successors of the Salamanders it says 'None known'. While it is possible that there were successors who have been lost over the last 10,000 years, nothing concrete has ever been mentioned to my knowledge.

spammy86
09-03-2008, 15:44
Much of GW fluff is borrowed from our own History. the Emperor and Jesus for example...humanities own self destruct nature and the fact that no matter how you try and unite humanity under one banner there will always be those who think differently. I guess its our gift and our curse to be able to think freely. It is this free thinking which spawned multiple religions and cults in the first place

The Emperor wanted to keep humaity safe. He knew of the warp and the entities which occupied it. Being an incredibly powerful psyker himself he was privy to this information and its not unlikely that the chaos gods tried to corrupt him like they did Horus. the emperor would not buy the gods offers and so they banished his children to the corners of the Galaxy. Perhaps the chaos gods knew how the primarches would grow and hoped they would be able to corrupt them. which they did as it explains in the heresy books. i would also like to point out that defining the "gods" of chaos is purely for lack of a better word. they arent gods. they are just entites of our own emotion given shape to an immesnly powerful being which to a human would be seen as god like. the word god is just a word we made up to explain something we havent the scope to understand. much like how ants would view our seemingly normal activites as god like (watch the simpsons episode when lisa creates a universe in a mug).

Perhaps it was the emperors own niavity to think he could unite humanity under one banner. no matter how unique and powerful he was there will always be those whom he cannot control.

For example, the emperor does not regard himself as a god but who is to say there arent those out there who do. and in the HH books it clearly shows those who view him as divine. perhaps they are looking for answers to questions. This is how modern day religions were made and GW are borrowing this idea. like in maths we have imaginary numbers which we input into equations when it doesnt make sense to give us an answer. we can only explain things which we understand and for everything else there is "god" or just a colony of massive ants watching us through a pane of glass, flicking it from time to time to see how we react.

to finish... why does god allow us to suffer war and death and starvation if he loves us so?? the answer.... If you were a parent, would you let your child who you love ride a skateboard even if you knew it may cause harm to them?

I probably strayed way of the point there but i fancied a rant...

Imperialis_Dominatus
09-03-2008, 21:29
Actually, quite a few things have been deliberately changed over the years. A lot of the fluff from the Rogue Trader era has been dropped or re-written in line with more recent editions. An example of this is the Crimson Fists, which were originally one of the 20 Legions (hence being on the cover of Rogue Trader, but were later downgraded to being a First Founding successor of the Imperial Fists.

Given, they change stuff on purpose occasionally, yeah, but how many versions of the Drop Site Massacres are there? I don't think they changed those and other things to fit themes or enhance the storyline, I think they just went by memory and screwed up.


It has been hinted at on a couple of occasions that there may be Salamander successors (such as the Black Dragons), but it has never been more than speculation. According to the Mythos Angelica Mortis (my previous reference was wrong), under successors of the Salamanders it says 'None known'. While it is possible that there were successors who have been lost over the last 10,000 years, nothing concrete has ever been mentioned to my knowledge.

Same here, I'll file that under the big, big, big 40k 'maybe' file.

Lord Torquemada
10-03-2008, 12:28
Ironic isn't it? Theocracies tend to be built upon irony and that's what the imperium is a theocracy. So when the emperor was "crippled" people needed something to hold onto and they found that in the forms of a false religion. Which is something that emperor did not want for his empire he said that there was no place for religion at all. So that's why people worship him because they needed something to hold onto, they needed faith in something.

setekhite
10-03-2008, 12:43
The irony here is that, for all its faults, the Imperial Creed is actually a fairly effective defence against Chaos. It makes the dangers clear in a fashion anyone can understand; the worship of the masses bolsters the Emperor's warp presence and, by extension, his ability to challenge the Chaos Gods; and faith in the Emperor is a genuinely potent weapon against the forces of Chaos (as evidenced by the Grey Knights and Battle Sisters).

The genius of 40K's setting is that the religious fanatic autocracy is the lesser evil.

MvS
10-03-2008, 18:36
With reference to the Emperor and the 'heresy' of the Imperium - well 'heresy' is a religious term to start with, so there can be no 'heresy' against the so-called Imperial truth of the Great Crusade. There can be a difference of opinion and that difference of opinion could lead to your execution, but that isn't heresy per se.

We don't know all the reasons why the Emperor said what he said and did what he did. He understood Chaos better than any other human and he knew of the immensely powerful sentiences and entities that existed within the Warp. He knew that they harvested souls and promoted in mortals the emotions that form them. He knew they thrived on worship and actively sought to control and even consume the Physical Universe - the Primordial Annihilator and all that. He knew that these entities were, to all intents and purposes, gods and demons.

Naturally he sought to eradicate faith in gods, angels, spirits and demons of all sorts, and we know he did this to hit at Chaos and distance humanity from its grip.

With regard to his own divinity, well whether we regard him as an objective god or whether we see him as a god only in the sense that people believe he is, it seems unlikely to me that he would encourage anyone to see HIM as a god if he was trying to end the notion of gods completely. Even if he WAS a god in every sense that mattered, the fact that he wanted to cut humanity of from the entities of Chaos would mean that he would want to end religious faith - even in him. Even if it was otherwise a good bet for humanity (not to say that it was).

As it was, the Emperor left humanity completely rudderless when Chaos was unbounded. Physical weapons were nothing next to strength of belief when it came to combatting these entities of Chaos, and humanity learnt that the hard way - on the battlefield and in their hearts while actually and physically confronted with the direct effects and creatures of Chaos. If the Emperor had schooled humanity in a means of directing its faith and emotions (hard currencies in the 40K universe) in a self aware non-superstitious manner, using faith as a shield against 'spiritual' predators, perhaps the monolithic and extreme Cult of the Emperor would not have evolved as it did.

But in the absence of any better instruction, faith in the Emperor as a deity proved to be the best weapon against Chaos and Chaos proved to be the direst threat to the human species, so faith became enforced. Just like conscription during a near hopeless world war becomes the norm when fighting against numerically superior enemies, so too has enforced 'conscription' to the Imperial Cult and belief in the divinity of the Emperor been identified as the most immediate weapon against the otherwise superior and insidious influences of Chaos.

It is seen as not just a fetish or a way of keeping people in line (although these come into it in the 40K galaxy). It is seen primarily as the only real and right and proper safeguard against the predations of Chaos - the Ultimate Enemy.

The irony of the Imperium isn't that they are completely wrong in their worship of the Emperor - he is, as far as it matters, the bond of humanity and the faith shield against Chaos. The sad irony is that because they fear the consequences of change (it could mean extinction), the authorities keep the Imperium as completely conservative and changeless as they can.

So humanity's war against Chaos is always defensive and on the back foot, and therefore doomed to fail unless it changes its approach and goes on the psychological and spiritual offensive against Chaos. It needs a complete revolution in its heirarchical structures, its belief systems and self perception.

If we are to believe some of the older imagery, the Golden Throne needs to be shut off and the corpse of the Emperor needs to be left to die finally and completely, freeing the soul (or whatever) of the Emperor to become either a true god in the sense that matters in the 40K imagery, or to be reincarnated to guide humanity again. Clean the slate and start again.

Of course this would plunge the Imperium into chaos (small 'c'), but I wouldn't imagine it being much worse than the strife it faced in the Age of Strife. As long as the species survives (which seems likely) there wouyld be hope for a new saviour or saviours...

PS,

Can we save the religious/irreligious polemics for another forum please.

There are few things worse than the noticeably ill-informed preaching to the largely disinterested.

Lord Malice
10-03-2008, 18:47
As I said on the previous page you have to try not to assume that the Emperor did not foresee that the Creed would perform the best defence against Chaos and that the Heresy and everything that happened afterwards was in fact the Emperor's plan all along.

The Emperor did everything in order to ensure that He would become an icon worshipped throughout the Imperium as a god whilst not appearing keen on such an idea which would have turned people away from Him.

MvS
10-03-2008, 19:27
But people would not have turned away from him. By all accounts he was so inspirational and so amazing a Presence that everyone who met or saw his was overawed and adored him. He had to work to keep people from worshipping him.

If he wanted to be worshipped from day one all he needed to do was tell everyone he met that he was the only True God, with his amazing powers and supernatural charisma as all the proof they needed. Hell, people started to worship him even before the Heresy, so it wasn't as if the fanbase (as it were) wasn't already there...

Lord Malice
10-03-2008, 20:15
Look at Horus' reaction when he decided that the Emperor was secretly manipulating events so that He could become a god. Horus knew full well, better than anyone, the abilities of the Emperor and yet even he railed against the idea of the Emperor claiming to be a god and I would bet that anyone would feel the same if their worship was demanded.

I don't believe that the Emperor manipulated thigns for any malicious purpose, it's what He was created to do, but in order to set in motion the events that would assure His rise He deliberately (or at least calculated the odds when the oppurtunity arose) to allow the Heresy to happen as He already knew the outcome. He didn't to ask for devotion, it was given freely and humbly saying, despite all evidence to the contrary that He was a mere man would have galvanised people's faith in Him; it makes Him seem selfless and Heroic, worthy, rather than greedy and grasping.

Imperialis_Dominatus
10-03-2008, 21:48
Interesting theory, Malice. I kind of like it. Though Horus' reaction IMHO is different than what it would be if the Emperor had openly claimed to be a god. Horus was angry because he'd known the Emperor had claimed not to be a god his whole life, had been raised on that tenet, had seen the consequences (Word Bearers) of those trying to glorify the Emperor as a god, yet it seemed that he was trying to be a god anyway. He may have been just as angry with the deceit as with the apparent arrogance.

Then again, I haven't read the HH series at all, so I may be at a disadvantage in this argument.

However, I like the theory, as I can see the Emperor doing something like that for the good of Humanity. One can expect he hoped to be a little more... whole, but there's only so much you can get.

MvS
10-03-2008, 21:57
Indeed.

I think had the Emperor made the Primarchs while openly declaring that he was a god, instilling a recognition of this into his sons psychic makeup, and then openly stating and showing his supposed divinity from the very outset of the Great Crusade, the primarchs would have either sided with the Emperor from the very beginning or resisted from the very beginning.

So by this measure, if Horus didn't like the Emperor saying he was a god, then he would never have been accepted into the Imperium, and never been given control of an Astartes Legion and would never have been made Warmaster.

weissengel86
10-03-2008, 23:08
Look at Horus' reaction when he decided that the Emperor was secretly manipulating events so that He could become a god. Horus knew full well, better than anyone, the abilities of the Emperor and yet even he railed against the idea of the Emperor claiming to be a god and I would bet that anyone would feel the same if their worship was demanded.

I don't believe that the Emperor manipulated thigns for any malicious purpose, it's what He was created to do, but in order to set in motion the events that would assure His rise He deliberately (or at least calculated the odds when the oppurtunity arose) to allow the Heresy to happen as He already knew the outcome. He didn't to ask for devotion, it was given freely and humbly saying, despite all evidence to the contrary that He was a mere man would have galvanised people's faith in Him; it makes Him seem selfless and Heroic, worthy, rather than greedy and grasping.

i hardly consider the emperor to be a mere man. In reality he would be a god as gods do not need to be omnipotent or omniscient to be a god. The "secular imperial truth" was a naive move on the part of the emperor because the chaos gods did truly exist and could easily be called gods because of their nature and power. the emperor should have accepted his own worship and instilled this idea into his imperium from the beginning possibly avoiding the entire horus heresy. the lectitio divinitatus cult took hold because any with the power and wisdom of a person like the emperor could logically be called a divine being. If somebody who was similar to the emperor existed in real life many people would see him as godly or divine because of his power

Lord Malice
11-03-2008, 17:26
i hardly consider the emperor to be a mere man. In reality he would be a god as gods do not need to be omnipotent or omniscient to be a god. The "secular imperial truth" was a naive move on the part of the emperor because the chaos gods did truly exist and could easily be called gods because of their nature and power. the emperor should have accepted his own worship and instilled this idea into his imperium from the beginning possibly avoiding the entire horus heresy. the lectitio divinitatus cult took hold because any with the power and wisdom of a person like the emperor could logically be called a divine being. If somebody who was similar to the emperor existed in real life many people would see him as godly or divine because of his power

You've missed my point entirely I think.

There is no doubt that Horus was manipulated, that events were taken out of context in order to send him against the Emperor. However by doing this Horus actually made it possible for the visions he saw to become reality.

When he is taken to see the nascent Primarchs it is heavily implied that even in this vision the Emperor is aware of his presence and when the Chaos Gods attempt to snatch the Primarchs away the Emperor chooses to pause for a moment. He could have easily stopped what was happening but, reading the future he foresees the Heresy, foresees His ascension and decides to allow the Chaos Gods to spirit the Primarchs away.

The Emperor did not naively create the Secular Imperial Truth, it was a calculated move designed to put into motion the events of the Heresy. In this way the Emperor did promote the Imperial Cult by manipulating events. I used to think that the Emperor had incompetenly and obstinately allowed events to slip from His grasp but the Horus Heresy series implies otherwise. The Emperor assured His own ascension to godhood by martyring Himself against the ultimate evil. Little does anyone suspect that He allowed it to come into existence.

The Chaos Gods might be powerful but they are beings of pure emotion, born and fed on the desires and whims of the mortals who serve them. They are slaves to desire and even though they were aware of the danger posed by the Emperor by corrupting Horus they allowed the Emperor the chance to win the greater war. When the Emperor finally succumbs and His spirit is released into the Warp it will be the end of Chaos.

And that is my point; the Emperor allowed the Horus Heresy to happen, it was His plan, one stretched out over millennia in order to create the Star Child and ultimately defeat Chaos. You say He should have proclaimed Himself a god from the start but He already knew that He didn't have to. He is a god, worshipped as such and He didn't have to do a thing, He just sat back and let events unfurl employing what the Chaos Gods cannot, cold calculating logic the very thing He always claimed He stood for above all else for the future (the far future) survival of Mankind.


Well, that's my opinion.

weissengel86
12-03-2008, 00:26
i believe you malice i only quoted your whole post because i dont know how to post only quotes from parts of the post. MY point is that the "secular imperial truth" is not actual truth and in the reality of the 40k universe atheism would be quite naive and im tired of hearing people slam religion because they think 40k promotes atheism which is hardly the case. When the Emperor ascended he became in all logical sense a god just as the warp entities slaanesh nurgle etc are all gods in any sense of the word. the worship of the emperor is not really against the emperors wishes because he merely used secualrity as part of his plan when the horus hersy started he became a lot more tolerant of the lectitio divinitatus and the imperium realized the utter naivety of the "secular truth"