PDA

View Full Version : 3 Highelf lists 2.25k: Rock Inf, Msu and Cav.



winkypinky
05-03-2008, 11:56
Hey.

After the new book, and I have played a bit with it, I have come up with the following 3 lists that I like to play.
It is a (almost) all cavalry, a Msu list with a dragon mage and finally a Infantry list, which has a line that is rather hard to move.

Might just as well get on with the lists.

------------

List 1: AA-cavalry.

Prince:
Chariot, Dragon armour, shield, Blade of leaping Gold, Talisman of Loec, Temakador's gauntlets.
347

Mage: Lvl 2.
Barded elven steed, 2 Dispel scroll, silver wand.
201

Noble:
Barded elven steed, Dragon armour, shield, lance, Radiant gem of Hoeth.
158

Noble:
Barded elven steed, Dragon armour, shield, Star lance.
149

2*10 Archers. (curse you to hell)
2*110

3*5 Dragon Princes: Musician.
3*160

7 Dragon Princes: MSC, warbanner, skeinsliver.
305

1 Lion Chariot
140

1 Tiranoc chariot
85

3 Great eagles.
3*50

2246.

Comments on the list.
Prince = part time all star fencing master. 7 attacks with a bucketload of re-rolls and penalties for the enemy is rather good. Even if it is S4. And it makes him very much able to go over to the enemy "big guy" and dance his pants off.
The magic defence + other hero: I have through a bit of gaming found out that 1 lvl 1 simply isnt enough for scroll caddying. And we elves are so unforunate that our mages cost a crapload so we cant really aford 2 scroll caddies, then we might as well go magic heavy. The solution? Drain magic 2 times a turn and 2 scrolls with 4 DD. I have found that, it just enough for most games. It is granted that you will not get many drain magic's through against many magic heavy armies. But take a 2nd gen slann list. Many of them only have 5-6 DD.. and you have 5 power with above list. And 1 Drain magic against 2nd gen slann is like shutting down their entire phase, or halving it at least. So a lvl 1 and a lvl 2 with 2 scrolls (lvl 2 mage + radiant gem of Hoeth) is my ideal way of going for magic defence at the moment, at 2.25k. But I would very much like to hear about what other people are doing.
The star lance hero is just there for the S7, sometimes it is not that good, but sometimes it can be game winning, and he isnt as expensive as he seems. It was Star lance/reaver bow in my head. And in this list I chose the Star lance, since chariots could be very bad if they are setup as counter charge units, This guy gives a chance to get rid of them in a cavalry list.

The rest of the list is pretty much given if you ask me. Going for the most bang for your buck on the dragon princes with 3 minimum cost units and 1 hammer unit. I would have liked a unit of reavers in there but in the end and after some playtesting I just really couldnt see what I would lose to gain those reavers. The Tiranoc chariot is there because of point concerns I would have liked if it was a lion chariot. The reason for this over a reaver unit is that I really needed the 3th chariot to make sure some of them got there and that I could be more or less sure that I would break something when combinig a charge with a chariot in the front and princes in the side. Also I found out that making a front charge with the chariot unsuported at first seems very bad, and is in most cases. But it can come in handy if you just need to hold something for a turn, or make sure in which direction it go in next turn. You can probably draw a combat on the first turn with 1 chariot and a bucket of luck. Or your ld 8/10 will probably make you stay if you lose a little. And next turn the enemy cant move, and the only way he can move the unit is during a overrun move (more or less bound to happen on his turn) so you can just line up some flank charges along that path. Yes you can just "bait" but many times against clever people they wont take the bait. And in this way you bait, maybe loses a unit (cheap tiranoc chariot and it flees 3d6, make it good to get away) but you dictate the acts of 1 of his units for 1 turn. That is okay for 85 points in some cases.
3 eagles ? I just cant get enough warmachine hunters, thorek holders (for 1 turn), march blockers, baiters and shooting stoppers with this list.

Problems with the list: I would like to add 1 more unit champion, cutting a silver wand + dragon armours most likely. It is not because the unit champion is good in anyway (more or less a waste of points in most cases compared to 1 more prince) but he can take challanges which my real Prince hates to be in, and sometimes it is a little hard with only 1 champion to pair the prince with.
Else it is pretty much a standard cavalry list and faces the same problems. The prince is really good in my opinion, even though he is rather fragile in a chariot. And he might well switch place with the radiant gem noble in the future after I have had a chance to run the list in a tournament. Or after many more playtest games. But right now he works wonders and breakes units on his own a lot.

------------

List 2: Rock Infantry.

I hate infantry, now it is said. I hate not having the advantage of movement and therefor the initiative in the game. But then I tried this list. Which really couldnt give a damn about what that is hitting it and in what angle most of the time. And I kinda liked it but it is not one of my favourite lists to play. And have some glaring weaknesses.

Korhil.
140

Mage: lvl 2, 2 dispel scroll
175

Noble: BSB
Heavy armour, shield, great weapon, Radiant gem of Hoeth.
169

22 Spearmen: MSC.
223

10 Archers.
110

17 White Lions: MSC, lion standard, skeinsliver.
335

19 Phoenix guards: MSC, the gem of Courage.
325

13 Swordmasters: Musician.
201

5 Ellyrian reavers: Musican, bows.
112

5 Dragon Princes.
150

2*RBT.
2*100

1 Great eagle.
50

10 Halflings.
60

2249

The BSB, in the lions which protects him from challanges, he is rather fragile. And the list fails a little when he dies and it is one of the main weaknesses. But as explained under the cavalry list I really needed him to have Radian Gem of Hoeth for minimum spell protection.
Korhil is in there to make the spearelfs stubborn. They are kinda crap without, but I find them rather amazing with stubborn. They become a okay tar-pit in that way. The phoenix guards are rather good at not dying, you have to give them that. Which makes them rather good as the last unit to form the line. And the gem of Courage + BSB should make them able to hold almost anything for a turn. Giving me 1 full turn to think about it, and get something done about it. Actually 2 turns. Since it is very rare that you can not see what that is going to charge what and what that have a chance of charging with spells and suchs if you pay attention during he game. Swordmasters are in there for some killing power, they are rather good on a flank. But I have keept them to minimum, (minimum in my mind is still 13 with a musician, I have seen and tried the 5-7 man units but I find them rather crap) since I didnt have the points to make the unit 18 strong with full command.
I alsmost always try to fit in a unit of 5 reavers with bows. I find them amazing. Some people dont like them, i adore them. They can turn as they like shoot all over they are fast and they are cheap. And will not get shot a lot when you have Swordsmasters and Dragon princes running around. The dragon princes are there to give me a unit that can really scare enemy flankers, or giving me a powerfull agressive unit with a long range, to go to their firebase in the case of the enemy has shooting but not enough to make me come to him, but still enough to make it a threath.
And eagle is included simply because it is a eagle, and with the new rare restrictions there is no reason or excuse anymore to not have 1 in your army. Halflings? Yes halflings, look at their pont cost. 60 points... Look at the rest of the list... and remember to add 150 for a char in each unit. I would gladly pay 60 points to save them. Halflings are perfect for the same as an eagle. The downside? They have half the movement. The bonus? They have bows and Bs4 and Ld8 which makes them rather good as Archer nr. 16-25. And at a reasonable price compared to HE archers. Which I have included again because that I couldnt really find the 25 points to make them seaguards with musican. And because that in this particular list I liked to have them range 30 in the case of I was facing a gun-line.

The general plan with this list is pretty simple.
- I have better troops than you and you can not get them down by out manouvering me. Making it less (in my oppion) skill required to play compared to a cavalry or Msu list. And therefor a bit more boring for me to play. But a very resilent list. Hard to massacre with and hard to massacre. Most games I played with it tended to end at something with minor or a draw.
In my oppinion it is also a very fluffy list. And one I will probably still play a bit since there is no point in making the most competitive list for casual and good spirited club games.

(spearelfs with korhil in 6*4, lion with bsb in 6*3, phoenix guards in 5*4 and with mage in many cases, SM's in 7*2. If anyone was wondering about formations)

----------------

Msu.

The list I like playing the most, since it is the most unforgiving, but the most rewarding in my oppinion. A bit like a harder to play wood elf list, since it is basicly trying to do the same. But with a army book not written for that kind of play.

Archmage: lvl 4.
Seerstaff of Saphary, Ring of Fury, Dispel scroll.
350

Dragon mage: Lvl 2.
Guardian Phoenix, silverwand.
420

Noble:
Dragon armour, shield, great weapon, reaver bow.
141

2*10 Lothern Seaguards: Musician, shields.
2*135

14 Swordmasters: MS, banner of sorcery.
278

5 Dragon Princes: Musician.
160

5 Ellyrian reaver: Musician, bows.
112

1 Lion Chariot.
140

5 Shadow warriors.
80

1 RBT.
100

1 Cannon.
85

1 Great eagle.
50

10 Halflings.
60

2246

What to say about the list?
It includes all of the very best from the High Elf army book in my opinion. The downside. It includes nothing else. There is no backbone in the list really. Just things that are powerfull which then takes a certain degree of overview to get to work together and win.
It includes: Seerstaff, Ring of fury, Reaver bow, Banner of sorcery, arguable the best infantry in the game and arguable some of the best cavalry, 12-14 Pd, a cannon and 40 bow shots (which is still bows but not that bad if you can fire 30+ shots without paying a lot for it and compromising other elements of the list.) I have explained most of the units fielded in this army before, so i wont go through them again.
Archmage with a Seerstaff + banner of sorcery is just silly. But very fun to use. Gives you a lot of power in the magic phase if your opponent is not to magic heavy. The Dragon mage is one of the most powerfull options in the High Elf book in my opinion, but the problem with him is that it is hard to make a list that "needs" him in anyway really, were a cheap prince (like really cheap) on sundragon would not be better. (in a cavalry list fx. that would like a dragon). But in this list he can really shine. Since it is just a goodstuff list that depends on flexibility and power rather than sense and a pre-made battle plan. I always gives my Dragon Mage guardian phoenix and silverwand I see no other items that really fit on him. It gives him a ward save and 1 more spell + 1 more Pd. For 35 points only.
The cannon is there because this list really needs something more against really tough things: treemen, huge monsters, tanks an suchs. The noble has a reaver bow, since it is just a really good utility item. If you really need to pluck down a fanatic or a mage has gone out in the open this is the guy to turn to. He will kill most t3 2w things in one go with a little luck. Which just makes the reaver bow a very good magic item for the list and in general, i did and still do consider a Star lance noble instead. But i still need some more testing to decide, since the star lance noble is better at what he do. But very limited at what he can do. (a radiant gem noble have also crossed my mind a few times but that should be for a meta that is very magic heavy. Which gives me a chance for double drain)

-------------

The last list is in my opinion the most powerfull of the 3 lists, but also the hardest to play. Which makes it good for "I am gonna wack you matches" but not ideal for a tournament were you are bound to make play errors at some point that will cost you the game. Were I would rather bring the AA-cavalry list or a variation of it, and try to outplay people. Or bring a list with 2 dragons and pray for good matchups.

Comments, critics, other views on things I have said, brand new ideas or any other kind of reply is very much welcome.

*The names of the army lists is just what is on top of my hand written army lists, couldnt really come up with any new ones.

- Yes I do miss the all cavalry seercouncil, but times changes and old loves moves away (or becomes ugly) -

riven5
05-03-2008, 21:23
I really like your lists, though the MSU list struck me as the most impressive. I'd be willing to bet that sucker will plow through plenty of armies so long as you use your magic effectively. I like that you included the Dragon Mage, though he is the only Large Target out there, meaning that any army with any kind of shooting will down him pretty quickly.

I see you're using Lothern Sea Guard, but I have to wonder why? There are a lot of pros and cons out there about these guys, but considering that you're running them 10 strong a piece, I kind of wonder what role they will play in your army. Are they shooters? If so, archers are a better choice. Are they RnF infantry? It would appear so since you gave them shields, but they lack the necessary numbers to perform that role effectively.

In your second list (Rock Infantry) I noticed something amiss with your Noble though. He is listed as having a Great Weapon and a Shield, as well as the BSB. Although as far as I know you can use a GW and a BSB simultaneously, I don't think you can use all three. Great Weapons are listed as taking two hands to use, and as such, I'm not sure you can have a shield with it. If you can that'd be great though. If not, consider switching to hand weapon + shield combo. That would give you a total armor save of 3+, which is okay. He's only throwing out a few Str4 attacks in that case, but I think protecting your BSB is more important than Str6 attacks. YMMV.

All in all good lists though. Hope to see some battle reports from them in the future :)

Dux Ducis
06-03-2008, 01:13
I like the MSU list, however I feel that the DOW cannon and halflings are not the HE's style. They are elitist, snooty bastards who wouldn't team up with anyone unless it was the end of the Warhammer world all over again.

GapingLotus
06-03-2008, 21:49
...He is listed as having a Great Weapon and a Shield, as well as the BSB. Although as far as I know you can use a GW and a BSB simultaneously, I don't think you can use all three. Great Weapons are listed as taking two hands to use, and as such, I'm not sure you can have a shield with it.

I always interpreted it that you can have shield and great weapon but the shield only adds +1 armour save for missile weapons eg. 4+ AS in close combat but 3+ against ranged attacks.

winkypinky
07-03-2008, 10:57
Hey all thank you very much for your replies.

riven5.
The reason that my BSB have both a GW and shield is because I like to switch between having him as a hacky noble. For when I am playing against not so vise opponents who dosnt target him or when the unit gets flanked and he is maybe only facing a single light knight that can direct attacks at him. In that way sometimes when the odds are for him living he gets S6 (he does still have first strike which makes it very likely that he will kill the one enemy in bsb with him should such a case present it self and then it is great to have a great weapon), but most of the time he uses HW+shield for a 3+ save, which makes the GW a little bit of a waste many times. But not the most expensive waste. (I know that he must declare which weapons, and that he cant switch back again any more during that combat). And to him carrying it all, I use the ornate noble with shield + the big sword in left hand resting its tip on the ground. The sword was quite simply moved to the other hand behind his shield, and he got an impressive big stick in the place were his sword should be. Which makes a model were all that gear dosnt look to messy.
- The seaguards. That is a hard one to argue over. Because you are completely right. They are just more expensive, and worse archers in many cases. But ni that much in the MSU list. Were I will probably try to manouver around the whole table a lot anyway therefor making their lesser range less of a problem. To them being 25 points more expensive.
Imagine a entry in the archer section that read: Give archer unit +1 attack a 5+(4+ if you ditch the extra atttack) save and a re-roll to rally for 25 points. Then it seems a bit better in my head. Also the Msu list is all about flexibility and I use the seaguards quite often at realative close range that makes them more vulnerable and the extra first strike attacks + armour save (sometimes 4+ when they are in 7 by 3 formation) sort of "lifts" the barrier of what my opponent can charge at them and win with quite a lot. Which makes them woth those 25 points in my opinion. It is granted that those 25 points will not make them immune to ranked units, characters or heavy cavalry. But it makes them more or less immune to the most light cavalry, light flyers and other fast units compared to archers who will still take a sound beating. And them being infantry it is really important that they can resist most light and fast units in the opponents army.
The musician is crucial in my mind is that I use the flee reaction up to 2-3 times with each of my units each game with this list. To bait and prevent opponents getting Vp's
To the dragon mage: Yes he dies a lot.... or in fact the dragon OR the rider tends to die a lot. But I have no problem normally with losing one of them by turn 4'ish. Were he have done what he should (press as many of my opponents units to take a terror test, and cast a little fire/suck DD so my archmage can have fun) because if I will still not lose any Vp's for the unit. It has only come up very rarely that I have not been able to keep either the dragon or the rider alive for the rest of the game when one of them goes down. And since they do not have seperate points value my opponent dosnt get any Vp's untill both of them are dead. Making the unit more or less 420 Vp's that my enemy will never get.
- I hope that made sense.

Dux Ducis: I am pretty sure that there is halflings in Avelorn actually. (it is the land of all things cute) And my seaguards are retired maidenguards... and to the cannon... well there is no way I can really justify that in anyway.... but neither can i think of a way to justify 2 tanks or 2 treemen... that is why it is still there. And if the HE were any kind of clever, they would never actually fight any battles themselves. The He book would be the DoW book with a HE advisor/moneyman added. Try looking at our CORE units.... those are some filthy rich bastards. Are you awere of how manny DoW generals that would gladly sacrifice all their men for just half the gems on a spearelf's hat?

GapingLotus: Yes that is the way it works, if tthe character does not chose to use HW+shield in a combat then he would not get the bonus for the great weapon casually strapped to his back (or the guy behind him holds it, what is he there for anyway?), but a AS bonus in CC for HW+shield.