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Vesica
05-03-2008, 22:58
I used to hate Fulgrim with a undying passion, but after reading 'Fulgrim' i realised how wrong i was and he became my favorite primarch (whilst increasing my hatred for Slaanesh).

And i started to wonder if he could ever if he tried take his body back? even if for a few moments? i believe i have read somewhere that normal people have managed to exorcise them selves. Also whilst im on the subject of exorcism, if the Imperium managed to capture Fulgrim could they free his mind? even if they had to kill his body afterwards.

Also whislt on this subject, i remeber reading that Horus said he would free his brother from his mind prison after the heresy. Do you believe he could have done that? and was this the last good part of Horus left after his pact with the dark gods?

Sorry if this is a bit stupid but im on a caffine high.

Wolf Scout Ewan
05-03-2008, 23:02
After 10k+ years and being a deamon prince? No.

Vesica
05-03-2008, 23:07
I didnt think he was a deamon prince, just a host body (i didnt think possesed could become Deamon princes).

Lord Malorne
05-03-2008, 23:08
I'm gonna give you the boring short answer. Yes. but GW will never do it.

As to horus it was not so much good as he preffered his brother to a Daemon (I still hate that Filgim is a daemon now).

Imperialis_Dominatus
05-03-2008, 23:26
Ugh. The new story for Fulgrim disgusts me. I hope he can, and then find a real reason to go to Chaos.

Vesica
05-03-2008, 23:28
Ugh. The new story for Fulgrim disgusts me. I hope he can, and then find a real reason to go to Chaos.

I dont think he would go to chaos, he chose oblivion after he realised what he did to Ferrus, but was tricked by the Deamon prince.

I would have rather had him die after killing ferrus, either by taking his own life, or by fighting the traitors around him.

WastedWhiteBoy
05-03-2008, 23:55
Ugh. The new story for Fulgrim disgusts me. I hope he can, and then find a real reason to go to Chaos.

Yea, didn't the older fluff have him turning to chaos because he desired perfection to the point where he was willing to lead his legion to damnation and betray everything? Or something along those lines, still I find that to be pretty awesome and evil, much better (imo) than the tragic little thing they got going with him now. I don't think its bad fluff, really, just liked the older stuff better.

Feor
06-03-2008, 03:29
Yea, didn't the older Fluff have him turning to chaos because he desired perfection to the point where he was willing to lead his legion to damnation and betray everything? Or something along those lines,

That, essentially, is exactly what happened in Fulgrim. The only difference being he realized his mistake after it was too late to go back, and the Daemon took over rather than have him try to turn on Horus.

I doubt Fulgrim could free himself on his own, but with help (say, a few dozen Grey Knights) the daemon could probably be kicked out, or at least suppressed. Of course, after 10,000 years of being a passenger in his own twisted and corrupt body he's probably not going to be the most balanced individual.

Nazguire
06-03-2008, 03:53
I used to hate Fulgrim with a undying passion.... (whilst increasing my hatred for Slaanesh).

You do realise this is a game don't you?



And i started to wonder if he could ever if he tried take his body back? even if for a few moments? i believe i have read somewhere that normal people have managed to exorcise them selves. Also whilst im on the subject of exorcism, if the Imperium managed to capture Fulgrim could they free his mind? even if they had to kill his body afterwards.

Also whislt on this subject, i remeber reading that Horus said he would free his brother from his mind prison after the heresy. Do you believe he could have done that? and was this the last good part of Horus left after his pact with the dark gods?

Sorry if this is a bit stupid but im on a caffine high.

After being imprisoned for 10,000 years in his own body where he has been tormented not only by the daemon but by the deeds the daemon is carrying out in Fulgrim's own name with his beloved Legion, and after watching the daemon practically destroy or corrupt the Emperor's Children into pain loving maniacs, I'd say there'd be no mind to begin with. It'd be broken and utterly destroyed.

You can tell from the novel that Fulgrim doesn't have the strongest mental fortitude in comparison to other Primarchs (such as Ferrus Mannus or Horus) with or without the sword, and this was one of the flaws he had to overcome, being too weak in the mind.

So no, no magical deus ex machina is going to bring Fulgrim back in any way, shape or form.

Sepharine
06-03-2008, 07:19
On subject: No, if he could, he would've done so earlier.

Anyway, I actually love the fulgrim story, he is until now the only primarch that you see giving anything and everything for his goal (perfection) and then drowning because of it; chaos as it should be, manipulative instead of worshipped.

Hrogoff the Destructor
06-03-2008, 07:44
On one hand I am mad at what they did to Fulgrim, but on the other hand I love how painfully tragic it is.

It's going to be impossible for him to take his body back on is own.

Some crazy ritual might do it, but its never going to happen.

LordFulgrim
06-03-2008, 08:40
After being imprisoned for 10,000 years in his own body where he has been tormented not only by the daemon but by the deeds the daemon is carrying out in Fulgrim's own name with his beloved Legion, and after watching the daemon practically destroy or corrupt the Emperor's Children into pain loving maniacs, I'd say there'd be no mind to begin with. It'd be broken and utterly destroyed.


Totally agree; there's only so much a person can take even if it's a Primarch. Besides if the Imperium ever found him they would kill him on sight instead of thinking "oh you poor Primarch let's exorcise that daemon you've got". Hell, there's nobody alive anymore who even remembers all the details after 10,000 years. I don't think Horus could have done it either if he had survived.

I'm still unsure whether or not I like this "new" Fulgrim. It kind of makes him a tragic character instead of willingly following the path to chaos.

pookie
06-03-2008, 09:04
why do people think this is a new/diffrent Fulgrim to what we have always had? all the HH books have done is tell us how he became what he is, the story is still the same, it just explains why he ascended to daemon status.

@ Nazguire ( your first comment) - Touche - was thinking the same.

Londinium
06-03-2008, 14:18
why do people think this is a new/diffrent Fulgrim to what we have always had? all the HH books have done is tell us how he became what he is, the story is still the same, it just explains why he ascended to daemon status.

@ Nazguire ( your first comment) - Touche - was thinking the same.

Not really, the past description of Fulgrim's fall was pretty shallow and required a suspension of disbelief, apparently when he heard of Horus' actions on Isstvan he raced across the Galaxy so fast, such was his anger that he reached Horus well before the other six legions, he then organised a meeting with his brother and mentor to try and get some reason why Horus had turned, during this meeting apparently Horus managed to prey on Fulgrim's insecurities and desire for perfection and turn him to Slaneesh, via a little personal intervention of Slaneesh whispering things to Fulgrim, promising him what he always desired, claiming the Emperor was holding him back.

While this discussion is still somewhat in Fulgrim, it's not the same and Horus very nearly doesn't suceed, it's only the production of the Lectitio Divinatus which finally forces Fulgrim into rebellion. Even then he's not exactly enthralled by it and has his doubts, which culminate in him realising just what he's done when he kills Manus and wanting to commit suicide only to be tricked by the daemon and then being possesed. Theres also the introduction of the Laeran sword, and the switching of Eldrads warning to the Emperor to a warning to Fulgrim, which is a catalyst in the daemon bound in the Laeran sword beginning to really take a grip on Fulgrim.

The two stories are quite different, even the Laeran are different in the 3rd ed IA, compared to 4th ed HH novel. In the IA he's a willing turncoat to Chaos, in the novel he's corrupted and possesed against his own will as a result of his insecurities and issues.

As for whether he could come back, yeah he probably could and considering the Primarches were warp infused, I see no reason why his body could not revert back to pre daemon status over time aswell, in fact it's always been one of my favourite '40k Elsewords' (like DC do for their comic characters) ideas to have Fulgrim somehow break free, flee the Eye and raise a renegade army that fights for the Imperium even though it would accept him back, as a sort of penitant crusade. Then again he may be as nutty as a packet of frogs, but I wouldn't put it past a Primarch to survive it.

A illuminated Fulgrim would be a massive weapon against Slaneesh for the Imperium, although only very very very radical inquisitors would ever think about co-operation with him.

The pestilent 1
06-03-2008, 14:24
I'd personally say that Fulgrim is too far gone to ever redeem himself enough to even put up the slightest opposition to the Daemon that now... Infests, him.

pookie
06-03-2008, 15:12
Not really

But all the info we have had before was from a Imperiums point of view, about what they 'think happened' although im not fully versed in all of Fulgrims Fluff, so i think i'll sit on the fence about this.

Thoth62
06-03-2008, 15:21
I'm still unsure whether or not I like this "new" Fulgrim. It kind of makes him a tragic character instead of willingly following the path to chaos.

There's one thing here I'd like to pick up on. It seems to me that the new HH books are striving towards making the fall of the primarchs into more tragic stories then what we've heard in the past. In all honesty, I've always had trouble believing that half of the primarchs just up and said, "We'sa gonna follow chaos, now. Okey-day."

I like the idea that for the most part, the primarchs that turned to chaos, didn't necesarily do it because they wanted to, but because they were forced down that path by the little choices they made, and the subtle manipulations of chaos and those around them.

Just think about it for a minute. Horus is wounded by a Daemon-weapon (the anatheme, if I remember correctly), and is healed by being exposed to a fairly blatently chaos dedicated warrior-lodge on Davin. Magnus is forced into that path through the attack on Prospero, and while he might have been going in that direction anyways, his motives for doing what he did were for what he thought, was good. Fulgrim succumbs to the daemonic entity in the Laeran sword. I'll not spoil Legion here (you can read that thread if your interested), but it seems as though the story behind the fall of Alpharius was also a direct result of his (and others) choices and their tragic consequences.

I think it helps portray the primarchs as remarkably ordinary. As human. Everyone makes mistakes. It's just that when you have so much power at your disposal, the consequences are much more widespread and tragic.

HobbitTank
06-03-2008, 16:51
It would be interesting to know what the real Fulgrim has been thinking these past 10,000 years, watching the daemon from inside the back if his mind.

"Today that dirty highjacker destroyed 3 cities and corrupted another 5. He's really gone down hill since the Heresy..."

Nazguire
06-03-2008, 17:10
It would be interesting to know what the real Fulgrim has been thinking these past 10,000 years, watching the daemon from inside the back if his mind.

"Today that dirty highjacker destroyed 3 cities and corrupted another 5. He's really gone down hill since the Heresy..."


"Gribbl..e...baooo...aboo...iees....."

Seriously, there wouldn't be any sane coherent thought in Fulgrim's head....If he controlled his body he'd be dribbling and defecating uncontrollably with a lop sided grin on his face.

Yeah, imagine that you Emperor's Children pussies. The gimp Primarch turned "Soup!" Primarch.

Findecano
06-03-2008, 19:32
the one thing I really like is the irony, symbolicness and of course tragicness that the new storyline conveys. the three instances of this, that do it for me are:

fulgrims eventual breakdown due to the lectitio deviniatius; objectively making one of the reasons that the emperor is now worshipped as a god and that the whole HH took place, that one reason would be that man started worshipping the emperor in the form of the lectitio deviniatus
secondly, although this was, to my knowledge also in the previous incarnations, the utterly tzeentzchian manner in which magnus fell; trying to warn the emperor about the fall of horus, which caused his own fall and a lot more hurt.
thirdly, the possibility that horus (perhaps accidentaly) destroyed the 2 missing legions by going back in time.

Imperialis_Dominatus
06-03-2008, 19:58
You do realise this is a game don't you?

40k fluff is serious business. :mad::mad::mad:









;)

Fulgrim's Gimp
06-03-2008, 21:42
To take the opposite view here's some possible evidence it could happen:

The traitor legions fought amongst themselves in the Eye of Terror when the ECs stole Horus' body and cloned it. The Black legion under Abaddon eventually destroyed the bodies.
The ECs (the less corrupted)with perhaps Fabius' help could be cloning the body to transfer the original Fulgrim to an uncorrupted primarch body after defeating the daemon.

Fulgrim according to the IA on the Emperor's Children seems to have vanished along with his battle barge in the wars in the Eye.

Reason could be he's broken free with his less corrupted brethren and vanished to fight the other legions.
All the above is pretty skewed view of the above events,but, could be possible.

Vesica
06-03-2008, 22:34
Or maybe he took control of his body and destroyed the battle barge he was on.

I wonder if he would have lost his mind? thier are ways to survive unwavering corruption and still retain your sanity(i wont say where i read this as it would be a spolier, but those that have read the book will know).

Just a thought on the other missing primarchs, maybe they have met you somewhere and are having a family reunion and thats why they havent been seen in ages (we all know that those things always last longer than planned).

Nazguire
07-03-2008, 01:01
To take the opposite view here's some possible evidence it could happen:

The traitor legions fought amongst themselves in the Eye of Terror when the ECs stole Horus' body and cloned it. The Black legion under Abaddon eventually destroyed the bodies.
The ECs (the less corrupted)with perhaps Fabius' help could be cloning the body to transfer the original Fulgrim to an uncorrupted primarch body after defeating the daemon.

Fulgrim according to the IA on the Emperor's Children seems to have vanished along with his battle barge in the wars in the Eye.

Reason could be he's broken free with his less corrupted brethren and vanished to fight the other legions.
All the above is pretty skewed view of the above events,but, could be possible.

Fabius Bile would want to do that?

Fabius Bile could do that?

:confused:

Even if somehow Bile knew how to create Primarchs, how to transfer someone's soul to another body and was approached by 'less corrupted' Emperor's Children, does anyone seriously believe he'd do it?

edit* Loloskates at Imperialus Dominatus. Nazguire loves him a big huggy bunch.

Imperialis_Dominatus
07-03-2008, 02:53
Fabius Bile would want to do that?

He might try it, he is a crazy mad scientist type after all.


Fabius Bile could do that?

Therein lies the doubt.


:confused:

Even if somehow Bile knew how to create Primarchs, how to transfer someone's soul to another body and was approached by 'less corrupted' Emperor's Children, does anyone seriously believe he'd do it?

He knows how to create new Traitors, but I'll side with you; I doubt he can reverse engineer the Primarchs or whatever. I think, though, that if he could, he'd give it a try.


edit* Loloskates at Imperialus Dominatus. Nazguire loves him a big huggy bunch.

*giggle* Oh, you.

Warp_touched
07-03-2008, 05:08
I honestly have any trouble whatsoever finding fault with any of the HH books so far, save for Descent of Angels which did nothing to progress the Heresy or even show much into the Dark Angels mysterious past.

On topic though, no. I figure by now the Daemon has probably got the better of him and has twisted his mind for Chaos, I doubt he has any shred of sanity left. 10,000 years is one hell of a long time.

Feor
07-03-2008, 05:10
As I understand it he succeeded in cloning Horus, but with the Emperor having blasted Horus' soul out of existence the clone ended up as a brain dead husk that was destroyed by Abbadon.

Nazguire
07-03-2008, 05:14
I honestly have any trouble whatsoever finding fault with any of the HH books so far, save for Descent of Angels which did nothing to progress the Heresy or even show much into the Dark Angels mysterious past.

On topic though, no. I figure by now the Daemon has probably got the better of him and has twisted his mind for Chaos, I doubt he has any shred of sanity left. 10,000 years is one hell of a long time.


He'd be lucky if he still had a mind that functioned, insane or not. 10,000 years of the most mind-numblingly tortorous mental torture by a daemon who's daddy is the father of pain, pleasure and combinations of the two doesn't bode well. Chances are his mind is completely broken and there isn't even a consciousness there, at least one that could be called human.

As I said, vegetable. Only on a far more extreme end of vegetablism...(thats not a word..)

Brother Thuemoose
07-03-2008, 05:53
He'd be lucky if he still had a mind that functioned, insane or not. 10,000 years of the most mind-numblingly tortorous mental torture by a daemon who's daddy is the father of pain, pleasure and combinations of the two doesn't bode well. Chances are his mind is completely broken and there isn't even a consciousness there, at least one that could be called human.

As I said, vegetable. Only on a far more extreme end of vegetablism...(thats not a word..)

Personally, I think the daemon would want Fulgrim to be at least somewhat conscious of what was happening, if for no other reason than to entertain itself. The idea of having Fulgrim watching everything and laughing at him for all eternity sounds like something a daemon would do.

Kandarin
07-03-2008, 06:54
Personally, I think the daemon would want Fulgrim to be at least somewhat conscious of what was happening, if for no other reason than to entertain itself. The idea of having Fulgrim watching everything and laughing at him for all eternity sounds like something a daemon would do.

I agree. The question is, why?

Because it wants to break him. Not just in a "break his mind" sense. That's too easy. Too sloppy. Not something that a daemon who serves the god of perfection would do. No, it wants to break the man's spirit, his will to fight against what he has become. It wants to break down Fulgrim's scruples until all that is left is a Fulgrim who smiles and nods at its every atrocity and cheers it on as it goes. It wants to turn Fulgrim into nothing more than a mirror of itself.

Fulgrim's eternal slide into depravity is the daemon's great work of art, and the Primarch's mind is the palette for the millenia-long process. I'd expect no less from Slaanesh.

pookie
07-03-2008, 09:18
As I understand it he succeeded in cloning Horus, but with the Emperor having blasted Horus' soul out of existence the clone ended up as a brain dead husk that was destroyed by Abbadon.

nope they were Gibbering fools and were destroyed by the Black Legion along with Horus's body so that Bile couldnt try again.

about Fabius: he's possibly the best option for future Gene Seed - after all he worked out that using the Canis Helix would reverse the affects of the mutations to the EC Gene Seed, so i wouldnt mind betting he can adapt any Gene Seed to closly match that of the Legion who needs it.

Londinium
07-03-2008, 16:53
I agree. The question is, why?

Because it wants to break him. Not just in a "break his mind" sense. That's too easy. Too sloppy. Not something that a daemon who serves the god of perfection would do. No, it wants to break the man's spirit, his will to fight against what he has become. It wants to break down Fulgrim's scruples until all that is left is a Fulgrim who smiles and nods at its every atrocity and cheers it on as it goes. It wants to turn Fulgrim into nothing more than a mirror of itself.

Fulgrim's eternal slide into depravity is the daemon's great work of art, and the Primarch's mind is the palette for the millenia-long process. I'd expect no less from Slaanesh.

Totally agree in the same way that the greatest Dark Eldar torturers can keep victims alive for weeks, months even while inflicting ever worse torture, a Slaneeshi daemon would push Fulgrim to the edge and bring him back, time and time again, just for the amusement of playing with him, although I differ on the point of it would like him complying, completely shattering Fulgrim beyond comprehension so that Fulgrim is compliant in everything would just be boring for the daemon, no challenge, no fun, no point. I believe Fulgrim is still conscious, pretty ****ed up but still some essence of him.

Kandarin
08-03-2008, 00:18
I differ on the point of it would like him complying, completely shattering Fulgrim beyond comprehension so that Fulgrim is compliant in everything would just be boring for the daemon, no challenge, no fun, no point.

It's not the end that matters, it's the process of getting there.

BrainFireBob
09-03-2008, 06:11
about Fabius: he's possibly the best option for future Gene Seed - after all he worked out that using the Canis Helix would reverse the affects of the mutations to the EC Gene Seed, so i wouldnt mind betting he can adapt any Gene Seed to closly match that of the Legion who needs it.

Source, please.

dr.oetk3r
09-03-2008, 06:16
Source, please.

It was in WD's Heroes and villains article a few years back. Uhh, too lazy to look up the page, but it's in there, honest.

NerdyOgre254
09-03-2008, 06:30
Note To Self: Purchase HH books as soon as possible.

I honestly don't think he could get his body back. The way i read it was that posession is the same as a parasite or symbiote - easy (relatively speaking) to remove within a certain while, but the longer it stays in the harder it is to remove.

dr.oetk3r
09-03-2008, 06:43
The Power of Christ compels you o.O

pookie
12-03-2008, 13:38
It was in WD's Heroes and villains article a few years back. Uhh, too lazy to look up the page, but it's in there, honest.

yep thats the one.

Brother Siccarius
13-03-2008, 06:57
The last part of Fulgrim, where the demon looks at the painting and sees Fulgrim trying to escape from inside, seemed to suggest that Fulgrim was no longer in residence within his body. I may be wrong here though.

As to Fabius Bile....after taking the information from the cursed founding, which was entirely about creating new primarchs, it's possible that he could be able to create a new primarch. The problem I see with the ECs doing an about face is that it gets very boring and outright crazy when everyone seems to be doing it.

and yes, I know about the Alpha Legion

Logarithm Udgaur
13-03-2008, 07:27
the one thing I really like is the irony, symbolicness and of course tragicness that the new storyline conveys. the three instances of this, that do it for me are:

I really hope that English is not your primary language. The words you are looking for are symbolism, and tragedy.
More on topic, WTF happened to just being evil? The characters that interest me most are those that make a calculated choice to serve darkness rather that light, knowing full well the possible consequences, but choosing evil over good anyway.

Phoenix Blaze
13-03-2008, 11:33
Firstly, I never thought about the cursed founding as new Primarchs, I thought them more to be bigger better space marines, but the Primarch idea makes so much more sense!

I believe that Fulgrim is stuck there unless he can get some help. Albeit that help would probably have to come in the form of the Emperor standing back up and bitch-slapping the daemon in his body. This falls in line with my dream-scenario where Chaos becomes too powerful, so the Old Ones wake up the Emperor, or maybe Russ actually returns with the Tree of Life or something! Upon waking up, the "lost" Primarchs (ie ones who just disappeared like Dorn and the Lion and such) return. And of course, we then get the daemon-bitch-slapping-session to bring Fulgrim back.

I don't think he'd be an utter vegetable. Yes it's been 10,000 years, but it's the Warp, time moves differently, so we don't know how long it's been for him.

I think I prefer this new version of events, possibly because I've long been an Emperor's Children player for years, and I much prefer them in their pre-heresy puritant days, so to have the tiniest possibility that my favuored Primarch is still good, somewhere deep inside is a nice thought.

Brother Siccarius
13-03-2008, 22:18
I really hope that English is not your primary language. The words you are looking for are symbolism, and tragedy.
More on topic, WTF happened to just being evil? The characters that interest me most are those that make a calculated choice to serve darkness rather that light, knowing full well the possible consequences, but choosing evil over good anyway.

Because most people don't look at their own choices as good and evil? When someone turns what other may call evil, it's not evil to them, it's the right decision in their mind. Evil is ambiguous on a personal level, and only seems to have definition on a much wider societal level (Generally an outsider's view). People talk themselves into making the wrong decisions for the right reasons all the time, that doesn't make them either good or evil, it makes them human.

Fulgrim went about doing just that, wrong actions, right reasons. Horus did the same thing, and it's actually still left up in the air as to what his reasons or intentions were (we know what Erebus and Chaos intentions were for the heresy, but not Horus).

When real people serve a darker power, they do it because they have reasons for doing it, usually pretty good reasons to them as well. They usually don't just go about killing, slaughtering and doing general "evil" stuff without solid reasons (unless they're mentally unstable, and neither Horus nor Fulgrim come off as such).
Even the moral right consigns that the route to hell is lined with good intentions.

Imperialis_Dominatus
14-03-2008, 03:43
Yeah, true. Though I propose that someone might do an 'evil thing' and think it was evil of him to do so, but that a worse evil or fate for himself might drive him to do that thing.

Take Chaos. There's a lot that these Champions do that we might consider, at the very least, morally reprehensible. But to him, he's just avoiding two of the fates reserved for those like him- death or Spawndom- and making his way to the third- Daemonhood. Which is pretty much his only bet.

Take Exterminatus. Inquisitors don't exactly toss virus-bombs and cyclonic torpedoes around like candy from a pinata. They do it because the death of billions will save trillions. I can barely imagine being an Inquisitor and trying to sleep at night, but you can bet that they believe in the righteousness of their actions. Otherwise, they wouldn't survive their profession.

Brother Siccarius
14-03-2008, 08:22
Chaos is a downward slope. You may start on the moral high ground, but once you get on that path you either keep going lower.... or you get crushed by chaos.

Imperialis_Dominatus
15-03-2008, 03:04
Yeah, but if you get yourself stuck on that path, moral scruples or not, you'll probably end up doing some dastardly, evil deeds. It's either that, Spawndom, or death and eternal torture thereafter.