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Vesica
05-03-2008, 23:06
I was just thinking maybe there never where the 2 missing legions. We just assume becuase there where 2 extra unknown birthing pods that they where destined to be Primarchs and had legions.

For all we know they might have been empty, or just had some Primarchs that had a different role in the Crusade.

icegreentea
05-03-2008, 23:55
The charts in various SM codex all have two legions with names and what not all garbled out. But the entries are still 'there'.

Vesica
06-03-2008, 00:14
could be a mistake from the days of the heresy, we all know that the Imperium isnt the best record keepers.

zoodog
06-03-2008, 00:22
it seems unlikely they would expunge records for legions that don't exist.
if they were mearlly support i don't think it would warrant it either, unless they were made up of squats or were all lunatic mages or something. But all indications we have they were deliberately struck from the records with extreme prejudice.
I believe they were noted without details in the HH books as well (have read them but someone else mention it) so take that as you will

PondaNagura
06-03-2008, 00:25
they were created to exist in a perpetual state of non-existing.
there are recordsa nd fluff bits from BL and HH series to indicate that they did exist, and that we as onlookers to this terrible future, are not to know of who they were and what they did.

Marshal Argos
06-03-2008, 09:18
It also states in numerous pieces of fluff that ALL 20 Primarchs were found, and that all 20 Legions were present. It just never tells us who those other 2 are, or why they were deleted.

Jade_Dragon
06-03-2008, 12:44
If you want to know about the missing legions then you should read this huge thread on the BL forums:
http://forum.blacklibrary.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13641

It basically lists all the facts we know about the missing legions.

Bookwrak
06-03-2008, 13:04
It also states in numerous pieces of fluff that ALL 20 Primarchs were found, and that all 20 Legions were present.

Where does it say that?

Vesica
06-03-2008, 15:30
I was thinking the same thing Bookwrak.

Mechanicus
06-03-2008, 15:51
Jade Dragon - that's the old thread, the new one's here (http://forum.blpublishing.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=177), and I strongly urge everyone to read it.

pookie
06-03-2008, 15:52
its in lots of fluff, cant quote a book/page at the mo but i'l check and if no one has posted by tom i'l point you to some. the new HH books deff say it tho.

Marshal Argos
06-03-2008, 16:34
According to codex Imperialis 2E:

He created 20 primarchs.. The chaos gods new that with these 20 he would invincible. So the scattered them. Over the following decades the Emperor found them. (not 18 of them but them meaning all). Of the origianal 20, only 9 survivied the Heresy. The remainder were either killed or fled to the EoT.

Later Codex's say that the 2 were removed after the Heresy.

Codex SM 3E:
says "each of the Primarchs rediscovered on Human worlds" and "20 First Founding Space Marions Legions are formed, each led by one of the Primarchs"

And in the HH Books themselves..
In the Horus Heresy book Horus puts his hand on the tube for Primarch XI and felt sorrow for the untapped glories for what grew within so he at one point new the person in tube 11...

All this leads me to believe that in fact there were 20 Primarchs created, and found.

Dosadi
06-03-2008, 17:37
That last one makes me think the XI legion was destroyed early in the Great Crusade. That was the impresson i got when reading the book.


Dosadi

Imperialis_Dominatus
06-03-2008, 21:22
The two Legions did exist and were found, as per many editions of Pre-Heresy history.

Lisiecki
07-03-2008, 02:48
4th ed C:CSM clearly says that all 20 Primarchs where found, and that all 20 Primarchs and that the Primarchs led there legions in the great crusade



I was just thinking maybe there never where the 2 missing legions. We just assume becuase there where 2 extra unknown birthing pods that they where destined to be Primarchs and had legions.

For all we know they might have been empty, or just had some Primarchs that had a different role in the Crusade.

ML Kurze
07-03-2008, 08:15
It is mentioned too many times to count that there were 20 Primarchs, all were found, all had a legion and were involved in the Great Crusade.

Now, this is some new fluff about the Missing Primarchs and Legions. Make of it what you will. I have to warn though, they might be spoilers so if you haven't read Legion or The Lightning Tower, skip the following.

********** SPOILERS **********


Attacking was a remarkably easy thing to do. Dorn's physical prowess humbled all but twenty human beings in creation, and those twenty were his father and nineteen brothers


For two hundred years, the Emperor and his primarchs had fought to create the Imperium. They had waged the Great Crusade from star to star, to forge the empire of man, an epic undertaking they had all made without hesitation, because they believed, with utter conviction, in the bright destiny it would shape for their species. They had all believed. All of them.


Dorn's aimless wanderings had taken him to the Investiary. In that broad space, an amphitheatre open to the night sky, statues of the twenty stood on ouslite plinths in a silent ring.
(...).
The second and eleventh plinth had been vacant for a long time. NO one ever spoke of those two absent brothers. Their seperate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded?
Sigismund had urged that the effigies of the traitors also be removed from the Investiary. (...).
For the time being, the traitors had been shrouded. Their towering, draped forms seemed like phantoms in the blue darkness.


'The Phoenician told me what Curze had told him: the fits, the seizures that had plagues Curze since his childhood on Nostramo, the visions. Curze said he had seen the galaxy in flames, the Emperor's legacy overthrown, Astartes turning on Astartes. It was all lies, an insult to our creed!'


Chayne shrugged. 'I have not trusted the Astartes Alpha Legion from the start sir. They do not practise the codes of nobility and honour shown by the other Legions Astartes. I believe their operation and conduct should be reported to the Council of Terra, pending censure or dissolution. It wouldn't be the first time a Legion Astartes has overstepped the mark, after all. They must be stopped and held accountable before they become too powerful'.

********** END SPOILERS **********

We can gather from these quotes that the missing legions did not turn on their brothers, because Dorn (and Loken in Horus Rising) believes Astartes turning on Astartes, before Horus' rebellion, impossible. It could be then that one of the legions was disbanded after something the primarch did. Or that the legion and their primarch were censured and were led into a suicide assault/mission from which none returned. Whatever it is, it should be noted that Horus and his fellows in Heresy didn't lose their statues in the Imperial Palace, while these two primarchs did. And also note that whatever happened, it happened a long time ago.
So I think one or both primarchs/legions were lost during the Great Crusade, after the recovery of their primarch either due to disease, crime, disaster or something else. Whatever happened, no-one wants to be reminded.

pookie
07-03-2008, 08:45
And in the HH Books themselves..
In the Horus Heresy book Horus puts his hand on the tube for Primarch XI and felt sorrow for the untapped glories for what grew within so he at one point new the person in tube 11...

All this leads me to believe that in fact there were 20 Primarchs created, and found.


That last one makes me think the XI legion was destroyed early in the Great Crusade. That was the impresson i got when reading the book.


Dosadi

its been proposed on here ( and im inclined to belive ) that Tube XI was actually IX ( or is that VIIII? ) because Horus looked at it upside down ( from his position ) and we all know what happened with horus and the 9th Primach dont we.... ( for those who dont know IX Legion was BA and Sanguinius was there primarch )

Thoth62
07-03-2008, 13:32
Did Horus have any powers of precognition? If not, how was he to know that Sanguinus would meet his death in the coming rebellion? How would he feel sorrow for the untapped potential if he didn't know the ending?

I'm inclined to believe that when they said XI, they meant XI. The book gives the impression that Horus already knew what happened to the XI Legion and their primarch.

The biggest question in all of this isn't who the two missing legions and primarchs were. I would venture to say that it is this. What did they do that resulted in their total deletion from the records? We know 9 Legions turned traitor, yet they're still in the records. It can't possibly have been something as 'mundane' as being destroyed completely. It had to have been something worse then heresy.

pookie
07-03-2008, 14:07
Did Horus have any powers of precognition? If not, how was he to know that Sanguinus would meet his death in the coming rebellion? How would he feel sorrow for the untapped potential if he didn't know the ending?

is that how its worded in the HH book? that sounds like something Dorn thought, although its been a while since i read the book where it describes Horus being in the Chamber where he and his brothers were resting prior to being abducted/lost/scattered.





its just something that was proposed, and seemed to make a little sence, but i dont disagree with you as such.

[QUOTE=Thoth62;2418179The biggest question in all of this isn't who the two missing legions and primarchs were. I would venture to say that it is this. What did they do that resulted in their total deletion from the records? We know 9 Legions turned traitor, yet they're still in the records. It can't possibly have been something as 'mundane' as being destroyed completely. It had to have been something worse then heresy.

what could have been worse? if all 20 took part in the Great Crusade?

Thoth62
07-03-2008, 14:31
Everything I've heard and read indicates that all 20 primarchs and legions participated in the Great Crusade. I don't know what could have been worse. What we do know is that 9 legions went traitor. They were not expunged from the records. 2 were. I am way more curious as to why they would have been more then who they might have been.

Spartan
07-03-2008, 14:43
Thoth62 I amof the same mind what can be worse than stabbing your family and father in the back, nothing I can think of unless it was the Emperor who deleted them before the Horus Heresey books as they had already turned to choas but they were not influential enough like Horus and the Emperor wiped away their existance, then as the Heresey occured it was a little harder to cover up as everyone was involved so no point trying.

pookie
07-03-2008, 14:51
Thoth62 I amof the same mind what can be worse than stabbing your family and father in the back, nothing I can think of unless it was the Emperor who deleted them before the Horus Heresey books as they had already turned to choas but they were not influential enough like Horus and the Emperor wiped away their existance, then as the Heresey occured it was a little harder to cover up as everyone was involved so no point trying.

but that cant work, if the 9 Traitor legions are known, why would the other two not be? if they had done something, what would be worse than what Horus and the other primachs did? it doesnt make sence why they are deleted, i agree, but until ( and i hope they dont ) GW clarify this, we are all left thinking 'meh'.

Spartan
07-03-2008, 15:00
but that cant work, if the 9 Traitor legions are known, why would the other two not be? if they had done something, what would be worse than what Horus and the other primachs did? it doesnt make sence why they are deleted, i agree, but until ( and i hope they dont ) GW clarify this, we are all left thinking 'meh'.

Well my thoughts and they are long shots I know are:

1) The Emperor removed the exitance of the other 2 maybe they turned traitor, not many people knew that and maybe they were not so large and so he covered it up.

2) The Horus Heresy was not covered up because too many people knew about it it was a lot larger than the possible previous one.

3) The Emperor was not around to eradicate the records again as he is a little tied up now.

The truth of the matter I think is that GW left 2 spaces for people to create their own fluff and Primarchs but hey lets keep going with this to try and think of a good reason but at the moment all I can think of is the above.

Thoth62
07-03-2008, 15:00
I'm with you on that one, pookie. I like the mystery, and this is one that I don't ever want GW to reveal. Ever. It's fun to talk about, and to try and draw some conclusions from, but the mystery is what draws me to it. If there were no mystery, it would, frankly, be boring.

pookie
07-03-2008, 15:08
Well my thoughts and they are long shots I know are:

1) The Emperor removed the exitance of the other 2 maybe they turned traitor, not many people knew that and maybe they were not so large and so he covered it up.

that wouldnt work though would it when you think about it.


I'm with you on that one, pookie. I like the mystery, and this is one that I don't ever want GW to reveal. Ever. It's fun to talk about, and to try and draw some conclusions from, but the mystery is what draws me to it. If there were no mystery, it would, frankly, be boring.

agreed, it sthe mystery that makes it fun, its just Damn annoying that they leave us little cluse here and there!

( any how chaps, its been good, but im off home now, have a good weekend all)

pepe5454
07-03-2008, 16:03
What about the legion of the damned I don't know much on them but they appear out of nowhere helping other space marines at times it mentions somewhere that invisibility is a possible primarchs power could they be one of these deleted chapters?

Thoth62
07-03-2008, 16:15
It's possible, but I thought the Legion of the Damned was from the Cursed founding...

pepe5454
07-03-2008, 16:21
Ah thats right they are rumored to be the fire hawks I forgot about that.

Imperialis_Dominatus
07-03-2008, 21:28
I've seen a few theories... it could possibly be that it's not anything the Legions did wrong, but that they were deleted for political, powermongering purposes. Some sort of conspiracy involving the High Lords of Terra and Guilleman, the ambitious scum. Or one of the Legions could have been sent on a 'secret mission' (corny, I know), whereby all information about them had to be destroyed to retain that secrecy.

Thoth62
07-03-2008, 21:32
I can't help but go back to what ML Kurze said on page 1 though. Dorn's thoughts seem to indicate that whatever happened to the 2 missing legions was a tragedy that either could have possibly been avoided, or something that they could have learned from...

Swifty
07-03-2008, 22:50
I find it hard to believe they are dead though, the death of a primach would be MASSIVE and everyone would know of such a thing. all the way through the HH books everyone thinks the primachs are invincible and the concept of one being killed completely unbelievable so this doesn't quite seem right.

DantesInferno
07-03-2008, 22:59
I find it hard to believe they are dead though, the death of a primach would be MASSIVE and everyone would know of such a thing. all the way through the HH books everyone thinks the primachs are invincible and the concept of one being killed completely unbelievable so this doesn't quite seem right.

....Surely that's exactly why the Emperor and his commanders would want to cover it up if one of the Primarchs died or was executed due to genetic failure/irredeemable mutation/incompetence? Spreading the myth of the invincibility of the Primarchs and their Astartes armies was critically important to the success of the Great Crusade.

The fact that everyone does think that the Primarchs are invincible doesn't mean that they are: it just means that the cover-up was successful...

Cowhuggermike
08-03-2008, 03:54
One of the lost Legions was the Iron Hearts and their Primarch was named Rubinek. Proof is in the Let The Galaxy Burn Omnibus, "Hell In A Bottle" pg 243. As for the other Legion, following lore created back from the Rogue Trader days, they were named the Rainbow Warriors. As to their Primarchs name I have no idea. Of Course if you were to ask GW about this they will say that they were spelling errors or "not canon". But for those that expeirenced Warhammer 1st hand in those days, it was in fact as canon as it gets.

dblaz3r
08-03-2008, 05:03
Even if the primarch did die of whatever cause what would have become of his entire legion? I wouldn't think that they would be amalgamated into the other legions as they have the differing gene seed. Its easy to explain away 1 guy but what about the other few thousand.

DantesInferno
08-03-2008, 05:18
Even if the primarch did die of whatever cause what would have become of his entire legion? I wouldn't think that they would be amalgamated into the other legions as they have the differing gene seed. Its easy to explain away 1 guy but what about the other few thousand.

If the missing Primarch's death was, for example, due to catastrophic genetic failure, a similar fate would likely befall anyone implanted with his gene-seed.

If the missing Primarch's death was due to Chaos taint or incompetence, his Legion may well have been quietly purged by the Emperor's forces (not likely by another Legion, probably by a group like the Custodes).

Tommygun
08-03-2008, 06:35
Could it be that GW made these "missing" legions, so that later on they could use them for new stories or for creating new chapters and codexs, but never did because they had there hands full with all the existing races and chapters.

Imperialis_Dominatus
08-03-2008, 22:16
One of the lost Legions was the Iron Hearts and their Primarch was named Rubinek. Proof is in the Let The Galaxy Burn Omnibus, "Hell In A Bottle" pg 243. As for the other Legion, following lore created back from the Rogue Trader days, they were named the Rainbow Warriors. As to their Primarchs name I have no idea. Of Course if you were to ask GW about this they will say that they were spelling errors or "not canon". But for those that expeirenced Warhammer 1st hand in those days, it was in fact as canon as it gets.

'Rubinek' has since been recanted (the author realized he'd made a mistake in his writing). And if GW says it ain't canon... well... it's their universe too.

Swope
09-03-2008, 00:07
Im goin out to say that if u have played
Any Of the Dawn of wars Games
In Dark Crusade when u fight the blood ravens chapter for there strong hold

Captain Thule Clearly states "We have all swore to protect fonts of hidden knowledge" He Also Says This "The Emperor is with us, the Unknown Primarch is with us" this could just be something they added in, but i don't think soo seeing as how gameswork shop is very carfull with wat they let game developers do in games to do with warhammer.

The Blood Ravens could the remainder or one of the missing legions
seeing as how not even they know where they are from nor there gene seed.
Knowing that successer chapters don't have Primarchs... seems a bit strange
and chapters and legions do change there names...they mite have been called something else if they are remainder of one of the missing legions.
just some thoughts about it

Tiller5
09-03-2008, 00:36
I think that the Blood Ravens talk about their unknown Primarch because they don;t know who's geneseed they are descended from, I'm sure theyre not 1st Founding though. Wasn't there a theory that they were of Thousand Son geneseed or something?

Imperialis_Dominatus
09-03-2008, 21:34
Their founding is a mystery, they don't know which Primarch they took their geneseed from. Might be as little as flubbed records or as much as... well, Cursed/Dark Founding, using experimental/mixed/*gasp*traitor geneseed. I like the theory that they are from KSons, it's an interesting twist.

anarnii
09-03-2008, 21:49
have any of you read all that BL thread about the missing legions/primarchs? its really good, very well put together arguement. it basically works out that the order of the legions is the same order they were founded in, which is why in IA (i think) the dark angles are called 'the first' and alpharius was the last to be found, so the last to join his legion.

legion 2 i beleive is something to do with the falling of the dark angles, and why when the emperors children (legion 3) has so few members in the legion when they joined the great crusade. if this happened maybe the emperor himself deleted the records before or at the start of the great crusade, rather than the high lords of terra which demeeded some legions traitor

still doesnt solve the 11th legion though, although they are both the 2nd legion out of 2 sets of 10, was it 2 sets of 10 or just 20?

Promethius
09-03-2008, 21:52
I'm of the opinion that they were deleted (as with the missing Roman Legions on which they were based) because they were destroyed in battle and the shame had to be hidden in order to maintain morale during the Great Crusade. Once the Heresy had occurred the truth was simply forgotten. As for when and where they were destroyed, it could be at any point in the crusade, but my vote goes for the noted failure to conquer the Maelstrom. The fluff says something about thousands of troops and hundreds of warships being destroyed trying to tame this region of space, why should the missing legions not be amongst these casualties?

Shaper Shakra
10-03-2008, 00:15
The invisible legion/primarch might be one! :P After reading about "Legion" I wonder, does Omegon count as one of the twenty or is Alpharius hereby to be referred to as Alpharius Omegon?

pookie
10-03-2008, 09:31
have any of you read all that BL thread about the missing legions/primarchs? its really good, very well put together arguement. it basically works out that the order of the legions is the same order they were founded in, which is why in IA (i think) the dark angles are called 'the first' and alpharius was the last to be found, so the last to join his legion?

the Legions were assigned numbers as to there actual founding, ie the Blood Angels were created 9th.


legion 2 i beleive is something to do with the falling of the dark angles, and why when the emperors children (legion 3) has so few members in the legion when they joined the great crusade. if this happened maybe the emperor himself deleted the records before or at the start of the great crusade, rather than the high lords of terra which demeeded some legions traitor

the EC had problems at an early stage in thier creation and until Fulgrim was found by the Emp they numbered only 300 (!?), this would indecate that Fulgrim's geneteic material was needed to produce more Marines for his Legion. ( and a possible explination to the missing two ).

Ookami
07-04-2008, 12:07
One of the lost Legions was the Iron Hearts and their Primarch was named Rubinek. Proof is in the Let The Galaxy Burn Omnibus, "Hell In A Bottle" pg 243. As for the other Legion, following lore created back from the Rogue Trader days, they were named the Rainbow Warriors. As to their Primarchs name I have no idea. Of Course if you were to ask GW about this they will say that they were spelling errors or "not canon". But for those that expeirenced Warhammer 1st hand in those days, it was in fact as canon as it gets.

If the other Legion was the Rainbow Warrior, maybe the French bombed them in New Zealand? :P

Skirnak
07-04-2008, 13:51
The invisible legion/primarch might be one! :P After reading about "Legion" I wonder, does Omegon count as one of the twenty or is Alpharius hereby to be referred to as Alpharius Omegon?

Unless some tragedy befell him and the legion he doesn't have before the Heresy itself, then no.

Nazguire
08-04-2008, 06:35
I like to think that based on the quote by Dorn in the Lightning Tower that the missing Primarchs were either

a) killed off and their Legions irreperably damaged (including their campaign expeditionary fleets) in two seperate massive tragedies. This was covered up to protect Imperial morale. (Instead of Missing Legion 1 and the 1st Expeditionary Fleet saving this world, it was really Horus and the 63rd Expeditionary Fleet that did, you see?)

b) Overstepped the margin in some way or another and were brought back to Terra for dissolution and a quiet 'retirement' by the Emperor. The Primarchs were then told something else to keep them ignorant of the situation.

electricwolf
09-04-2008, 00:17
I'm wondering if the two missing legions are missing because the emperor doesn't want anyone to know who those primarchs were.

All the primarchs would know their own brothers but what if the two missing legions are actually the primarchs of a chapter like the Grey Knights or another secret organization?



Everything I've heard and read indicates that all 20 primarchs and legions participated in the Great Crusade. I don't know what could have been worse. What we do know is that 9 legions went traitor. They were not expunged from the records. 2 were. I am way more curious as to why they would have been more then who they might have been.

pookie
09-04-2008, 08:54
I'm wondering if the two missing legions are missing because the emperor doesn't want anyone to know who those primarchs were.

well thast one theory, although its stated in places that all 20 Legions took part in the Great Crusade, although as yet we dont know when/where etc,


All the primarchs would know their own brothers but what if the two missing legions are actually the primarchs of a chapter like the Grey Knights or another secret organization?

no the GK were set up after the HH and by this time we know that the two missing primachs were not around because of Dorns commenst in the Lightning Tower.

Emperor's Grace
09-04-2008, 18:31
b) Overstepped the margin in some way or another and were brought back to Terra for dissolution and a quiet 'retirement' by the Emperor. The Primarchs were then told something else to keep them ignorant of the situation.

This seems likely given the paragraph in Legion (pg 384?) where Namitajira is going to recommend censure and possible dissolution for the Alpha's behaviors. He makes a point of noting that it has "happened before".