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Festablo
05-03-2008, 23:44
Alrighty guys, got a few questions... I got the spear head last week and ive been playing some games with the new list, lovvvves it. HOWEVER we recently ran into some problems here...

With ION it states that you target an undead unit within 12 or 18 inches I forget the range off hand, however it doesnt not say that you may target units in close combat. In the rule book it states that no wizard may target a unit that is engaged in close combat unless it states that you can. Now I assumed because it said target any undead unit within 18 inches that took care of issues such as engaged in close combat, as well as LOS etc... however because the spell doesnt not specifically state that it can, people have been giving me a hard time. Same goes for miasma of deathly vigor (corpse cart ASF spell). Upon reading through the rules for ION i found a passage that states models raised the turn they charge do not gain a charge bonus. So once agian I pointed this out to my opponents stating it gives examples of CC... however they made the point that this could refer to units that have been danzed into CC... ARGG lol. With this in mind I began to look through other spells in the lore of vampires and sure enough it states specifically if units are affected if they are in hand to hand.. yet for ION, and summon undead horde (heal varient) it does not state you can cast into HTH... am I missing something???? Help.. Lol -Fest

Spirit
06-03-2008, 00:14
1: IoN in combat, the general consensus is yes it can be cast into combat freely.

2: Corpse cart bound spell, again yes, it targets every undead unit, even ones in combat, it would be a bit silly to only be able to cast on ASF on units out of combat, do you not think?

In my view they are meant to be cast into close combat, the book is pretty badly written il admit, but these spells are so integral to the undead's playing, they must be able to cast into combat. The reason as to why they chose to not make it obvious however, evades me..

Festablo
06-03-2008, 00:25
I agree, but it says the affect for the corpse cart lasts until your next magic phase, thus giving you ASF if you are charged. Also as was pointed out to me the Wind of Undeath says its hits all enemy units on the board even if it is engaged in close combat.. Lol yet it does not state the same for these other spells, which leads to my frustration! arg! >< lol

grishnakh99
06-03-2008, 00:35
Take a look at Van Hel's Danse. It also says you can't cast it into close combat, however one aspect of the spell is specifically for close combat.

Also, read the bottom of the IoN, and then come up with a scenario in your head how a unit could have charged, be in combat, be affected by IoN and not get the charging bonuses. There is only one example, and it's stupid. You'd have to charge, have IoN cast on the unit, and then Van Hel's into another unit. That's the only way you can make that paragraph come true. So most likely you can cast it into combat.

Festablo
06-03-2008, 00:39
yeah this was my argument as well. Its just insane how carelessly they worded the spells... Lol

GodHead
06-03-2008, 00:43
yeah this was my argument as well. Its just insane how carelessly they worded the spells... Lol


It's just insane how carelessly they worded the book.

If I was in charge, people would be fired. Maybe that's why Gav "left."

Delmont
06-03-2008, 04:46
Actually if you look at the lore of vampires the only time it says the specific words "May be cast into close combat" when you can cast on enemy units. Those I play with interpret cast on any friendly undead unit to mean ANY friendly unit. It does not say and friendly unengaged unit and it gives examples of what happens when your units are in combat and the spell is cast.

As for the corpse cart spell it is similar, it effects all units within a given distance. Since you are not targeting or casting into combat the spell works. The High Elf spell courage of Annerion (sp) works the same way. No one says that one doesn't effect units in close combat even though it doesn't specifically say it does.

Porksta
06-03-2008, 05:24
You can only cast into combat if the spell specifically says you can, as per the rules. Which is why Gork's Warpath only affects units not in combat.

Oberon
06-03-2008, 05:54
You can only cast into combat if the spell specifically says you can, as per the rules. Which is why Gork's Warpath only affects units not in combat.

... "or if specified otherwise", which applies to many VC spells at least, like vanhels and IoN :) But lets not go there, there are tens if not hundreds of topics about this already...

Spirit
06-03-2008, 12:14
Take a look at Van Hel's Danse. It also says you can't cast it into close combat, however one aspect of the spell is specifically for close combat.

Also, read the bottom of the IoN, and then come up with a scenario in your head how a unit could have charged, be in combat, be affected by IoN and not get the charging bonuses. There is only one example, and it's stupid. You'd have to charge, have IoN cast on the unit, and then Van Hel's into another unit. That's the only way you can make that paragraph come true. So most likely you can cast it into combat.


As for vanhells, it specifically says "If cast on a unit engaged in combat" so i dont see how that applies, its a non argument, it can be cast into combat.

EvC
06-03-2008, 12:16
And simialrly, IoN refers to a case where a unit must already be in combat :)

Spirit
06-03-2008, 12:20
Yes, it does, to me it makes IoN a non issue as well. If you IoN then vanhells the unit has not "already charged" so there is no way to "already charge and then have i.o.n cast on you" unless it can be cast into combat.

Alot of the VC rules seem to require common sense, and while the rules monkeys will flame me for this, I can guarantee you that when and if the FaQ comes out, common sense will win, IoN and vanhells will cast into combat, fell bats will be infantry, ect ect ect.

Ive also got a feeling that they will make fast cavelry count as infantry as well, because it seems a bit silly to have an ability that lets you raise wolves above strength, when you can only ever raise 1 (or 2 with corpse cart) at a time. At 8 points a model i see that as being a bit silly. But that one is just a view, not a guarantee.

EvC
06-03-2008, 13:22
Although I agree they will probably go for the common sense approach, I doubt they'd make Wolves "infantry" for the purpose of raising- Bat Swarms and Fell Bats already receive D6 wounds back from the Invocation, it doesn't need any more boosting!

Spirit
06-03-2008, 14:34
yea but i also dont se them wanting a useless ability in the new books, and the ability to get 1 8pt wolf isnt to appealing. I dont include them in my army because i need the points for vampires.. lol

Oberon
06-03-2008, 14:40
Wierd place to snip points... Really, wolves are so great you just have to have them in there, at least some. Not being able to reraise or raise them is not that big deal, other armies have even more expensive fast cav but ours cause fear and knows no fear. Mov 9 fearless fast cav, born to ruin enemy plans.

I'll think twice before trying to raise d6 fell bat wounds/casting...

Murdoch
06-03-2008, 15:01
On topic ION isn't badly worded. It is missing one sentence and then it would be fine.

That sentence is can be cast into close combat.

Most players will not care a toffee about this being missing as they know what the spell is 'meant' to do. But I can't wait for the first lawyer to dust off their briefcase and start reading from the BRB....

I will yawn....

And then have an argument #sigh#