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E-616
06-03-2008, 01:29
I've had the chance to play a couple of games with the new VC now and I've had a good flick through the rulebook and found that Necromancers can now take a Corpse cart as a mount.

Being treated as a character on a mount allows the Corpse cart to join a unit if it chooses, however the size and shape of the model (which is mounted on a chariot base) makes this somewhat awkward;

You can't stick him on the side of the unit because the front rank will have to many models in it and if you stick him in the middle of the unit the model will displace about three ranks behind it causing the unit to be wider in the middle, as I assume the model only counts as being in the front rank for the purpose of how many models there must be in each complete rank.

Another point is that the Necromancer will now be open to more attacks in CC and more vulnerable to shooting if left out of a unit, and will not give any extra benefit to the Necromancers casting ability.

Finally there's the fact that Corpse carts don't have any upper limit to how many can be took other then points cost, so is there really any point in taking them for Necromancers? :confused:

Rommel
06-03-2008, 01:39
For me no. You dont protect your necro better if you put him on a cart. The opposite, he is becoming more vulnerable to shooting without actually winning anything. And to be honest i prefer my corpse cart between the units or behind them to avoid a charge. There is no point to put it in a unit imo.

Dracosavarian
06-03-2008, 01:44
Yes, there is uses. Though you have to plan around it.


For one, you could use formation tactics. Honestly, the best thing to use a CC for is for flanking in combination with a unit of Ghouls. Say you combine the CC with a Necro on top in a unit of Ghouls. Give the Necro the Nightshroud.

Now, have the Frontage of the Ghoul unit be approx 7 wide for regular models. In combination with the Corpse Cart, this will give you a total of 13-23 Possible Attacks. If the enemy aims for the Necro with the Nightshroud, the other models will be able to attack first thus helping to eleminate the threat.

Now, think multiple unit support on this. The best and most effective use of a CC is to try and get it to hit something on the flank when it joins a unit. With that many attacks coming in, 11 of which are poisoned if using a Ghoul Champion, it can get nuts. Add in the Helm of Commandment to bump up the WS of the unit, and then use Vanhels or various other Magic items, even the CC's bound magic ability, to help in this, and you can quickly destroy the flank of an army and start rolling up their line.

Also, keep in mind the Balefire effect as well, which is effective for fighting against enemy casters.

Now imagine all of this, slamming into the flank of a unit, then raising zombies behind the unit, slamming them into the rear of said unit...and getting Vanhels off and everything strikes first....

VERY nasty.

On paper the CC looks kinda meh, but when you combine it with units in your tactics, its combat effectiveness can become apparent. You just have to plan your use of it carefully, like a well played game of Chess.


Also keep in mind, that a necro on a CC in a unit gets his look out sir! Roll, since the US is below 5.

Lord Inquisitor
06-03-2008, 01:58
Rather astoundingly, if you stick the corpse cart and the necromancer in a unit, it cannot be picked out by enemy bowfire, and even recieves a Look Out Sir! roll against other attacks.

Add to that the fact that as far as I know it really does displace that many models for ranking purposes, it really does provide both Necromancer and Cart a huge amount of protection from enemy magic and missile fire, not to mention huge reslience in combat - giving the Cart the benefit of ranks and banners and high unit strength.

Now, this still seems downright odd that you should be allowed to do this, but I can't see any reason you can't (I can't help thinking the Cart should have been Unit Strength 4 not 3 - it would have disallowed these combos...)

On their own, the necromancers don't seem up to much, but the ability to put a cart in a unit seems extremely powerful. It also looks entirely unintended by the rules, but it sure looks legal to me.

Admiral Samuel Eden
06-03-2008, 02:36
It is good if think about it carefully. I'm not going to give reasons as the above posters have managed to give many but there's no disadvantage in doing this.

sulla
06-03-2008, 05:03
I would mount him on it but not place it in a unit. The reason I would mount him on it is that you don't need to 'waste' an infantry unit babysitting him and the cart is not really cut out to be a front line combat unit so you kill 2 birds with one stone by mounting him in it and deploying them both behind your lines...

Lord Inquisitor
06-03-2008, 05:54
I don't know... my first impression was "why would you ever want to do that?" It just makes two juicy targets for cannonballs or monsters into one, handy package for the enemy.

Putting him in a unit really does help. Otherwise I don't think I'd bother with Necromancers at all...

Dracosavarian
06-03-2008, 07:30
It all varies.

Some people are just flat out panning the Corpse Cart as crap. Actually, its a very cheap, rock solid unit for what it can do for its points.

Its a self Regenerating, 5+ armor save, 2D6 attack monster. Mount a Necro on it with either Nightshroud for when he is in a unit, or wristbands of black gold if he is off on his own, and you have seriously damaging potential.

You see, in my mind, the Corpse Cart has Four potential uses. All of them Excellent.

1: Raise Dead boosting. [This is self Explanatory]

2: Anti magic zone of doom. [The Corpse cart -1 to casting stacks. So if you had 5 corpse carts near an enemy wizard, they are -5 to cast all of their spells. Effectively, judicious use of Corpse Carts and yes, even the black coach in combination, can effectively nullify an enemys magic phase. Imagine a constant -2 to cast all spells, in ADDITION to having your power dice and wizards dice sucked away by the black coach. Very devastating]

3: Bound spell spammage. [If you have several Corpse Carts, you can use them to advantage as bound items for getting rid of dispel scrolls and dispel dice in important phases. Judicious use would be needed but hey, whatever clears the way for the important spells right? ]

4: Attack boosting, regenerating monster INSIDE a unit of Ghouls/Skeletons. [This one is awesome. you are always guaranteed 2 attacks, possibly 12 with the Corpse Cart. In combination with the corpse carts bound power ability, this is a no brainer. Place this monster in a unit of ghouls, and as I said, you have a ton of attacks incoming, that strikes first should you get the bound spell off. Moreso, if the general dies, the ghouls/skeletons can go off of the Necros leadership...all while he rides that lovely regenerating cart, that can yes, even regenerate crumbling wounds. Very nice indeed]


The corpse cart and the Black coach are the Vampire Counts's path to Anti Magic. Think of them like two gigantic negative voids that just suck in EVERYTHING magic wise, and you suddenly get the idea that in combination, the two can help you boost your magic phase to a far more lethal potential.

sulla
06-03-2008, 07:31
I don't know... my first impression was "why would you ever want to do that?" It just makes two juicy targets for cannonballs or monsters into one, handy package for the enemy.

Putting him in a unit really does help. Otherwise I don't think I'd bother with Necromancers at all...

...of course, with the added speed your flankers can get now from all manner of sources, you really shouldn't have to fear cannons for more than a turn unless your opponent is doing things a lot better than you. :evilgrin:

GrogsnotPowwabomba
06-03-2008, 10:52
Some people are just flat out panning the Corpse Cart as crap.

Who is saying the Corpse Cart is crap? I think most people realize its awesome. The debate is to whether it is a good idea to mount a Necromancer on it.

Spirit
06-03-2008, 11:14
Id say yes, if your necromancer is not mounted on it, he is going to be in a unit anyway, and can STILL be just as easily attacked in close combat and can STILL be cannon sniped, the corpse cart doesn't change this, however it does give you the chance to have 2d6 S2 (+1 S3) ASF chances to kill whats in front of the necromancer, in which case, he wont be attacked in close combat.


So basically, he is just as vulnerable as before, but the corpse cart cant be hot, and in combat you have more chance of scoring hits against things.

Also, to the person wondering if the corpse cart only counts as being in the front row. NO. It counts as 8 models in a 4x2 setup, so it will give your unit an extra rank pretty much, which is another bonus.

If i take a necro and a corspe cart, i will never, ever take them separately, there is no point.

Lord Inquisitor
06-03-2008, 15:41
Also, to the person wondering if the corpse cart only counts as being in the front row. NO. It counts as 8 models in a 4x2 setup, so it will give your unit an extra rank pretty much, which is another bonus.
I think you're right... where can we find something to back this up? What other units are similar - grail reliquaries, archaeon/tyrion, screaming bell?

AlexCage
06-03-2008, 16:56
Warhammer Chronicles resolves the issue with the Corpse Cart giving ranks
http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/chronicles/assets/Q&A2003.pdf

Granted, it's old, but I think this still applies. Now if I am not mistaken, a Chariot base is 50mmx100mm. This would effectively give you the equivalent of 10 Infantry models in a big enough unit. Honestly I'd say that alone makes the CC worth it! More rank bonuses! Yarr! With the points you save you can give the standard bearer the standard that lets you count your fourth rank.

Holy crap... if that really works as I understand it that's a pretty good tactic in and of itself!

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here.

The-Malefic
06-03-2008, 18:47
I've been mounting a necromancer on mine and running it behind a unit of skellies and grave guard side by side. It's worked brilliantly in three games so far.

heinrichvoncarstein
06-03-2008, 18:58
I use mine as a thing to get my necromancer safely stuck in between my grave guard and black knights while they're in combat so he can fire off his staff of damnation bound spell

superduperkoopatrooper
06-03-2008, 19:08
Is the corpse cart described as a monster in the book? Is it autodestroyed by Str7?

My point is, not having the book and going solely on appearance, it looks rather like a chariot (being on a chariot base and being a cart drawn by 'steeds'). Characters on chariots generally can't join units I don't think. At least I really don't think it was GW's intention to allow them to sneak into units when given a character on top. Plus it would be the first 50x100mm model allowed into infantry units afaik.

heinrichvoncarstein
06-03-2008, 19:12
It counts as a monster (therefore, not auto destroyed by str 7) and can join units if ridden by a necro because it then becomes a monstrous mount.

AlexCage
06-03-2008, 19:15
The rules have a designer note on it that say "for purposes of movement, treat the Corpse Cart as a monster". In addition, it never once actually says it's a chariot. Based on that, what else can it be but a monster and a monstrous mount?

It's also M4. What kinda crappy chariot would be movement 4?

Mr_Rose
06-03-2008, 19:26
Is the corpse cart described as a monster in the book? Is it autodestroyed by Str7?

My point is, not having the book and going solely on appearance, it looks rather like a chariot (being on a chariot base and being a cart drawn by 'steeds'). Characters on chariots generally can't join units I don't think. At least I really don't think it was GW's intention to allow them to sneak into units when given a character on top. Plus it would be the first 50x100mm model allowed into infantry units afaik.
It's a monster. Not in any way a chariot.
The more I read this book, the more I'm convinced that Gav actually did spot most, or if not, all of the combos and either facilitated them on purpose or priced them out of the running.
Like the Flight power being just a little bit more expensive than the flying horse, but also allowing it to join units and use the scout power and nightshroud armour. Little things like that...

E-616
06-03-2008, 23:54
Cool :) that's given me some good ideas and some clarification as to how the model ranks up in a unit, sounds like a good plan to stick him in the cart after all, cheers :D

heinrichvoncarstein
07-03-2008, 11:41
It's a monster. Not in any way a chariot.
The more I read this book, the more I'm convinced that Gav actually did spot most, or if not, all of the combos and either facilitated them on purpose or priced them out of the running.
Like the Flight power being just a little bit more expensive than the flying horse, but also allowing it to join units and use the scout power and nightshroud armour. Little things like that...


You can't join a unit if you're flying. It specifically states that in the fantasy main book.

Mr_Rose
07-03-2008, 12:43
You can't join a unit if you're flying. It specifically states that in the fantasy main book.
Which page would that be? We just had this argument in another thread and it not the case that there is any rule preventing flying characters from joining units.

There is a rule preventing any character, flying or not, from joining a flying unit (p.69, 2nd col., 3rd para.).
There is also a rule preventing a character on a flying mount from joining any unit (p.72, 2nd col., 8th para.).
There is no rule "characters with he Fly special rule may not join units".

If you can find it, please provide a reference.

The Clairvoyant
07-03-2008, 13:25
The huge downside to the necro being on the cart is that if said necro gets killed, you get a Ld test on 7 or roll on the monster reaction table.
This could end up with your cart sitting there for the rest of the game doing nothing.

Which then leads to a question: If the cart does sit there and do nothing, if it had a flame attack it could fire that, but there are no rules for whether it can use its bound spell. Can it use it or not?

AlexCage
07-03-2008, 13:38
Wait, aren't "Immune to Psychology" mounts unaffected by their rider dying? Or did I just totally misread that?

The Clairvoyant
07-03-2008, 13:41
Wait, aren't "Immune to Psychology" mounts unaffected by their rider dying? Or did I just totally misread that?

immune to psychology is only immuneness to fear terror and panic. It doesn't cover grieving :D

Mr_Rose
07-03-2008, 14:11
immune to psychology is only immuneness to fear terror and panic. It doesn't cover grieving :D
Yeah, but can you imagine the look on your opponent's face when you tell him that the mobile pile of corpses, some of which probably used to be his men, is so disturbed by the loss of the guy standing on them that it has gone right off the deep end, and now hates their army and is frenzied? :p

Spirit
07-03-2008, 20:24
Now if I am not mistaken, a Chariot base is 50mmx100mm. This would effectively give you the equivalent of 10 Infantry models in a big enough unit. Honestly I'd say that alone makes the CC worth it! More rank bonuses! Yarr! With the points you save you can give the standard bearer the standard that lets you count your fourth rank.

Holy crap... if that really works as I understand it that's a pretty good tactic in and of itself!

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here.

Ive been using it exactly like that. The problem is its smaller than 10 models but bigger than 8, the staff at my GW said its 8 models worth, but its still a bit screwy to get in the unit.

Worth it though, because they both get look out sir as well if im not mistaken... At least the necromancer certainly does. It makes the thing unkillable, and at 100 points, i don't want anything shooting my 3w t4 ... "thing"

Lord Inquisitor
07-03-2008, 20:26
Does anyone actually know if a ridden monster also benefits from the "Look Out Sir!" roll if it is not US5?

This must have come up regarding characters like Archaeon.

I'm still struggling to get my head around the concept that a corpse cart needs to roll on the monster reaction table if the necromancer is killed...

Oberon
07-03-2008, 20:29
Imagine corpse cart sitting there, weeping over the rotting corpse of the necromancer, sad and protective... Or frenzied corpse cart rampaging over all opposition... Weird stuff happens.

AlexCage
07-03-2008, 20:41
So does anyone else get this macabre mental image of the entire cart flailing about like a living creature, like the animated skeleton of the Magic School Bus, complete with skeletal facial expressions (mostly just.. sad) and eyes.. or.. eye sockets... The entire cart rearing up on it's hind.. wheels.. and slamming down the zombies attached to its... head. Wow.

Worth it to note: The Designer Rule states "The Corpse cart moves and fights like a monster".
It NEVER says the Corpse Cart IS a monster. And the reaction table is neither 'fighting' nor 'movement'. I think RAW works in the spirit of the rules here, and it would not take a monster reaction. Thoughts?

Mr_Rose
07-03-2008, 20:58
Maybe. but I don't care, I'm rollin' anyways...

My other General is an Orc ;)

E-616
07-03-2008, 23:40
Worth it to note: The Designer Rule states "The Corpse cart moves and fights like a monster".
It NEVER says the Corpse Cart IS a monster. And the reaction table is neither 'fighting' nor 'movement'. I think RAW works in the spirit of the rules here, and it would not take a monster reaction. Thoughts?

It could be that the designers may have over looked that one, it's quite strange that a pile of dead things would be able to react at all ;) but it is a mount of some sort and the closest fit is a monster which means it technically should take a reaction test if the Necromancer is slain...

Maybe Undead mounts should be spared the Monster reaction table given their undead nature?