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Lord_Squinty
06-03-2008, 17:31
Tried a search - but only got a "what counts as magic missile?" posts.

I'm just re-starting my WE army, and going through possible ideas, I had a re-read of the army book and spell lists and noticed something potentially very good.

The spell 'The hidden path' states that the target unit treats all terrain as open ground...
I took that as meaning for movement only, but thats not what it says - it says "treats all terrain as open ground"

See where I'm going with this?

So, If I have a waywatcher unit in the middle of a wood, outwith the 2" seeing out distance and cast this on them, they now treat all terrain as open ground, so can target out right? or even target units hiding behind terrain?

I doubt this is RAI, but it is what is says...

Any thoughts / comments appreciated, I checked and theres no FAQ for wood elves on GWUK site.

Avian
06-03-2008, 17:44
Open ground is not necessarily something you can see through. A normal hill is open terrain, but still blocks line of sight if you stand behind it.

mad dog
06-03-2008, 21:58
Squinty I had already had this in mind and was pretty sure you were right, I had it in mind as another nbasty tricksy thing for my WE.

Then DAMN IT - Avian rocks up and throws the asbestos blanket of common sense on my fire!!!!

Keep praying for those WE FAQ's - rumour has it they are done (the UK GT team were telling me about the broken Moonstone ruling that will allow it to be used in both players turns) but their web guys are too busy to upload the link!

Jericho
07-03-2008, 03:44
Well it's one use only, so it's not like it's the biggest issue in the history of ever. It would be annoying as hell if your opponent teleported out of combat or something though :p

Anyway, I agree with Avian's assessment (that's how I play it with my army, always have) and I also join in the prayers for an FAQ. All the magic weapons that don't have the "counts as spear" or "counts as longbow" type statement are annoying. Technically people can BS you with RAW claims if they feel like it, and that's just not good. I want the +1S on the charge with my magic spear, dammit :D

Lord_Squinty
07-03-2008, 08:02
OK, a hill counts as open ground, But flat open ground doesnt block LOS.
A wood would *wood wood would :D* count as flat open ground, no?
As I said - I originally thought it was movement only, but its strange that GW didnt use their standard phrase of "may move through terrain without penalties" or add something like "For movement purposes only" etc...
I can also see it fluff wise that because the unit is now "out of the croporeal world" it *and its arrows* can see through trees and the arrows arent stopped by them...
I agree that a hill would count as open ground and block LOS, as per rulebook, but I think it needs more than that argument to say that it doesnt work how Ive asked.

enyoss
07-03-2008, 10:14
I'm of the opinion that if the woods count as open terrain for all purposes, and that open terrain is flat, then you can see through them. Does flat open terrain block line of sight?... no.

Of course, if it was a wooded hill then it would count as elevated open terrain, which might then block line of sight.

Not only do I think this is well supported in the rules, but it also makes that part of the spell useful. Otherwise, in the vast majority of cases you would simply have the benefit of moving through woods without penalty... with Wood Elves :rolleyes:.

Cheers,

enyoss

DeathlessDraich
07-03-2008, 11:10
1) The spell description is not accurate. We have to assume that 'open ground' is 'open terrain' - a term used by the rule book. I think there will be no objections to this assumption

2) Open terrain is explained as - "clear ground that does not impede movement".
LOS is *not* mentioned. An obstruction to LOS cannot be assumed to have disappeared. Exactly how LOS should now be treated in this case is covered on pg 9 - "normally a good idea to discuss with your opponent ... how...treat... LOS" .

I doubt whether any WE opponent would agree that LOS is also affected by HP.

In the same way, a WE unit charging a Dwarf entrenchment or defended obstacles e.g. low wall will still suffer the penalties for defended obstacles.

3) The 'loopholes' for Hidden path are the affected unit:
a) can move *through* a building
and the slightly more controversial
c) can voluntarily move off the board - "any *other* from of movement treats the edge as impassable *unless ... in the special rules for a troop*"

Avian
07-03-2008, 13:05
I'm of the opinion that if the woods count as open terrain for all purposes, and that open terrain is flat, then you can see through them. Does flat open terrain block line of sight?... no.
But a wood certainly is not flat unless a tornado has passed over it.
:p

Vascariz
10-03-2008, 20:46
But hidden ground treats it as open ground, as if a tornado has passed over it!
The way I see it is that it treats any obstacles on the ground as no longer affecting the unit.
So if you are on a wooded hill, the hill is still a LOS if in front of the unit but not the trees.

GodHead
10-03-2008, 21:02
Agreed. There is nothing in the rules that would indicate the spell was meant for "movement purposes only."

Makes sense.

FigureFour
11-03-2008, 03:49
Isn't the solution here obvious?

The forest is treated like open ground, so it loses all it's foresty special rules.
Now you get down to a models eye view and look across the table. Can you see through the woods?

Now you know if you have line of sight, just like any other open terrain with a piece of scenery on it.

IronBrother
11-03-2008, 06:43
Only for that unit, and unless I am wrong waywatchers can no longer see 4" out of woods, so by theory or logic, if you can shoot, I can shoot back. And the first time your mouth starts to form the word "no" is when you should realize that it does not work that way.

I am fairly certain however that this will be fixed with the FAQ.

505
11-03-2008, 08:13
:evilgrin:
But a wood certainly is not flat unless a tornado has passed over it.
:p

so don't park your woods next to a trailer park

but anyways I do agree with avian its open ground but not necessarily abe to see through it

Benigno (WE)
11-03-2008, 08:51
IMHO it is ridiculous the fact that you can see through the woods with that spell. Hidden Path is a defensive spell, it allows you to make a unit immune to bolt throwers, cannonballs etc, and able to pass through impasable terrain like a river, rocks or a building without penalty.

I think it is weird to try looking for an offensive way to use the spell, when it is clear that the spell is defensive.

I hope a FAQ can resolve this question, but I will still use that spell only in the defensive way.

DeathlessDraich
11-03-2008, 11:28
Only for that unit, and unless I am wrong waywatchers can no longer see 4" out of woods, so by theory or logic, if you can shoot, I can shoot back. And the first time your mouth starts to form the word "no" is when you should realize that it does not work that way.

I am fairly certain however that this will be fixed with the FAQ.

We agree on the original question.

Your reasoning - if you can shoot, I can shoot back i.e. if (A) has LOS to (B) then (B) has LOS to (A) has quite a few exceptions:

1) A Hidden assassin has LOS out of the unit it is hiding in but the enemy cannot see him
2) Chameleon skinks, Forest stalkers in a marsh or on a hill at deployment may have LOS to certain enemy units but these enemy units cannot in turn see them even if they are facing them directly.

and finally
3) A unit of archers (A) facing the rear of enemy archer unit (B) - (A) can shoot but (B) cannot