PDA

View Full Version : Purging the loyal



Gimp
06-03-2008, 19:29
Thanks to the Horus Heresy novels we now know how the Sons of Horus, Worll Eaters, Death Guard and Emperors Children purged the marines that were still loyal to the Emperor.

How how did the Word Eaters, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Thousand Sons and Alpha Legion purge the their "loyal" ranks.

On a side thourght I think there would be less marines still loyal to the Emperor in some of the legions than others. For example I dout there were many marines still loyal to the emperor in the Thousand Sons and Word Eaters however the Alpha Legion, Night Lords and Iron Warriors might still have had a few Emperor fan boys among them.

DantesInferno
06-03-2008, 20:13
Thanks to the Horus Heresy novels we now know how the Sons of Horus, Worll Eaters, Death Guard and Emperors Children purged the marines that were still loyal to the Emperor.

How how did the Word Eaters, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Thousand Sons and Alpha Legion purge the their "loyal" ranks.

The high command of the Word Bearers had turned to Chaos substantially before any of the other Legions, and so had had a great deal more time to convert their Legion to Chaos wholesale. The Word Bearers, after all, pioneered the use of Chaplains and were among the first to adopt the "warrior lodge" system of Chaos worship. Given the longer time to prepare his Legion for rebellion, I doubt Lorgar would have had too much of a problem with dissent.

The Night Lords didn't have a schism of any note during the Heresy itself, but they would have had a massive split afterwards had Night Haunter not been assassinated. The two sides would have mirrored the two halves of Konrad Curze/Night Haunter's personality. On the one hand, there would be the Terran veterans who followed Konrad Curze's original ideals, using terror as a tool to promote justice and order. On the other, the sociopaths recruited from Nostromo, who viewed the infliction of terror as an end in itself.

Resentment in the Iron Warriors against the Emperor had been growing all the way through the Great Crusade (due to the callous disregard with which the Legion was treated). The Iron Warriors had come to learn that they could only trust each other in the Legion, not outsiders who would use them and their skills as a tool. They'd been fighting alongside their comrades in the most hellish conditions the Great Crusade could produce: there wouldn't be many Iron Warriors prepared to turn on their colleagues for the distant Emperor. Besides, even if there were, the Legion had become so dispersed that any "Loyalists" wouldn't have much of a chance to form a significant force.

The Thousand Sons only turned to Chaos once the Emperor had unleashed the Space Wolves on their beautiful homeworld, killing large numbers of their Legion, and destroying the museums and libraries which the Legion had painstakingly maintained. There wouldn't be much sympathy for the Emperor left in the Thousand Sons after that....

And the Alpha Legion have always been an enigma, perhaps even to themselves. According to what others have said about the new Black Library book Legion, the whole Alpha Legion may have been loyal to the Emperor...


And on a personal note, I'd like some more information about dissension within the ranks of the Loyalist Legions (Dark Angels aside). After all, the Loyalist Legions didn't have any stricter recruitment standards or doctrinal enforcement than the Legions which turned Traitor, so you'd expect at least some Marines to be Horus-sympathisers or the homicidal psychopaths the Traitor Legions had in droves.

PondaNagura
06-03-2008, 20:47
for some reason i don't believe that there would have been Horus-sympathizers in the loyalist legions, having not been exposed to the same circumstances that lead to the fall into Chaos. theyt seemed more content to follow their own Primarch's oders then those of the actual warmaster.

Talos402000
07-03-2008, 02:04
Supposedly, Battle for the Abyss will feature Ultramarines and loyalist Thousand Sons aginst the Word Bearers. I can see it now, Magnus dispatching an elite strike force of Thousand Sons to aid the Ultramarines (before the battle of Prospero happens), fighting and dying to help their brothers, and just at the end of the hard-fought battle the remaining Thousand Sons find out that the Emperor has sanctioned them for extermination. Oh how bitter they must have been after that...

Nazguire
07-03-2008, 02:25
The Thousand Sons... Well those that were on far away missions whilst Leman Russ was en route to Prospero may very well have been loyal up until they heard what the Space Wolves had done. Even they may have been still loyal, having been some of those Space Marines (invariably Terrans) who listened and agreed with the Emperor after the Council of Nikaea.

Concerning the Alpha Legion, I have this suspicion that some of them might not have even known why they were turning traitor, considering the secrets and labrynthine command structure of the Legion itself. Whilst the World Eaters, Death Guard, Sons of Horus and Emperor's Children all had 'reasons' given by their Primarchs that were heard right down to the lowest Scout, I can't see Alpharius/Omegon having such personal companionship with his entire Legion like the original 4 Legions. So there well may have been splinter groups of Alpha Legionnaires that just heard the order to start shooting Ultramarines on sight and not knowing why, and stayed loyal.

Being a Legion shunned by other Legions and the Imperium, as well as being feared by everyone else, the Night Lords wouldn't have had too many loyalists. With the Emperor and Malcador publicly censering them, Rogal Dorn and his staunch Imperialists publicly and privately humiliating and confronting Konrad (with sexy results) and Konrad's own premonitions gettiing the best of him and his attitude pervading the rest of the Legion, loyalists in the Night Lords would have been few and far in between.
If Konrad hadn't of been assassinated I can't see there being a massive division as DantesInferno has implied. It seems as though (from Lord of the Night and the IA) that Konrad had strong control over his Legion while he was present and inspired incredible loyalty (seeming as they were loners among loners, you sort of have to stick together)

Word Bearers, as DantesInferno stated, had much longer to fully turn to Chaos thoroughly with little problems. There might have been a few die hard loyal Chaplains and devotees to the Emperor still but they would have been quietly (or not so quietly depending on how far along the corruption was) dispatched. Lorgar himself would have been a powerful conversion tool. He was seen as the Prophet, and since Primarchs inspired die hard loyalty amongst their Legion to begin with, in a Legion of religious fanatics, a seemingly divinely touched Primarch would have been proof enough that turning to Chaos was worthwhile.
You've all read what Loken felt when Horus talked to him, even if only briefly. Utter devotion. Take this devotion, infuse it with religious calling and zealotry, and any naysayers would have been quickly convinced by speaking to Lorgar for five minutes (particularly if his skin was golden as is implied in the IA)

The Iron Warriors were bitter, paranoid and ruthless veterans by the time of the Heresy. Since their job was breaking down fortress walls, trench warfare and fighting mass gunlines in small numbers and being expected to succeed with no reward or thanks, the general attitude of the Legion would have been "It's about me for a change" with the plans for the Heresy becoming apparent.
Maybe Iron Warriors that hadn't seen as much action as the rest of the Legion and were closer to Segmentum Solar might have stayed loyal, but for the most part, I can't see a Legion that was brutalised, used, abused and taken for granted every step of the way having too much love for the Emperor, especially after Perturabo began preaching open rebellion.

DantesInferno
07-03-2008, 21:04
If Konrad hadn't of been assassinated I can't see there being a massive division as DantesInferno has implied. It seems as though (from Lord of the Night and the IA) that Konrad had strong control over his Legion while he was present and inspired incredible loyalty (seeming as they were loners among loners, you sort of have to stick together)

The problem was that the original Night Lords followed the ideals of Conrad Kurze, while the sociopath recruits from Nostromo were loyal to the Night Haunter. And what was going to lead to conflict was Kurze/Night Haunter's own fundamental internal division between these two personas. In the end, it's what caused him to allow his own assassination.

"Your presence does not surprise me, Assassin. I have known of you ever since your craft entered the Eastern Fringes. Why did I not have you killed? Because your mission and the act you are about to commit proves the truth of all I have ever said or done. I merely punished those who had wronged, just as your false Emperor now seeks to punish me. Death is nothing compared to vindication."

There was going to be a schism within the Night Lords soon after the Heresy, whether it occurred within Kurze/Night Haunter himself or between the corresponding sections of his Legion.


for some reason i don't believe that there would have been Horus-sympathizers in the loyalist legions, having not been exposed to the same circumstances that lead to the fall into Chaos. theyt seemed more content to follow their own Primarch's oders then those of the actual warmaster.

Of course in general the marines in the Loyalist Legions would follow their Primarchs' orders. But the examples within the Traitor Legions should show us that there were some Marines who were prepared to fight their Primarch and their comrades for what they believed in. Remember too that Horus was a deeply impressive and loyalty-inspiring individual as Warmaster. Or some may have felt that the only way of ensuring their Legion survived the Heresy was to join Horus before he won. I just find it a bit problematic that the Traitor Legions went through severe internal divisions whilst the Loyalists fought with unanimity. I'm not suggesting that there'd be a Dark Angels-style split within every Loyalist Legion, but I'd expect a few more renegades here and there.

It's also important not to forget that there weren't any real differences between the legions which became the loyalists and traitors in terms of recruitment and indoctrination before the Heresy. The traitors ended up with lots of Marines who were wildly ambitious, unstable, secret Chaos worshippers, or just psychopathic. You'd expect the same from the loyalists.

BrainFireBob
09-03-2008, 06:08
Yes, but really, in the Heresy it was Marines loyal to their Primarchs/Legion first, then the Emperor, again Marines loyal to the Emperor internal to the Legions.

The Loyalists wouldn't have suffered this split, since their Primarchs supported the Emperor, so the schism wouldn't have been apparent in their ranks.

The only Legion that was loyal and suffered such a schism was the Dark Angels, precisely because they weren't loyal to their Primarch.

DantesInferno
09-03-2008, 06:44
Yes, but really, in the Heresy it was Marines loyal to their Primarchs/Legion first, then the Emperor, again Marines loyal to the Emperor internal to the Legions.

The Loyalists wouldn't have suffered this split, since their Primarchs supported the Emperor, so the schism wouldn't have been apparent in their ranks.

The only Legion that was loyal and suffered such a schism was the Dark Angels, precisely because they weren't loyal to their Primarch.

You're only reaching this conclusion, though, because you're using the internal divisions in the Traitor Legions to model what would happen in the Loyalist Legions.

In the Traitor Legions, the split was largely between Marines loyal to their Primarchs and Marines loyal to the Emperor. Support specifically for the Warmaster Horus was not an important issue among Marines in the Traitor Legions (excluding the Sons of Horus, obviously), because the Marines primarily supported their Primarchs, who in turn supported Horus.

However, support specifically for the Warmaster would be an issue in the Loyalist Legions. Remember that Horus was a deeply charismatic and inspiring leader, and that commanders of many of the Loyalist Legions would have met him many times and seen his talents on display.

The Traitor Legions split between on the one hand Marines loyal to their Primarch and their Warmaster, and on the other Marines loyal to their Emperor. Surely there'd be at least some Marines in the Loyalist Legions who would choose the Warmaster over their Primarch and Emperor?

And this is only talking so far about Marines in the Loyalist Legions who would join the Traitors out of principle. Given that recruitment and indoctrination were no more specialised in the Loyalists than in the Traitors, I'd expect some Loyalist renegades to join the Traitors out of ambition, insanity or corruption...

Wazzahamma
09-03-2008, 07:01
If it wasn't possible for the 9 or so loyalist legions to fall to chaos or schisms within their ranks, Guilliman would never have called for the second founding.

BrainFireBob
09-03-2008, 07:05
That supposes that Marines would feel more loyalty to Horus than to both their Primarch *and* the Emperor. That's speculative. How many Marines had close enough contact with Horus, but not with their Primarch, to feel loyal to Horus?

There may have been sympathy with his goals, but sufficient to turn them traitor against their own Legions?

EDIT: And Guilliman called for a split for two reasons- one, to transition the Marines into a defensive formation, and two, to prevent gathering the level of power Horus called on. Fear of the marines turning internal to the Legion wasn't a factor, it was Legion high command turning, with all its associated loyalty.

Wazzahamma
09-03-2008, 07:11
The Dark Angels are a good example of Astartes acting out of disrespect for their Primarch and Emperor (or perhaps just primarch).

Even amongst traitors, Typhon went against Mortarion's wishes and cheated his primarch and legion for his own goals.

Amongst tens of thousands of marines, I'm sure you can find astartes that are loyal to primarch first or loyal to emperor first or loyal to themselves first.

And if loyal legions had warrior lodges within, their member's allegiance might have been secured through daemonic means to chaos first and above all else.

Baaltharus
09-03-2008, 07:17
Supposedly, Battle for the Abyss will feature Ultramarines and loyalist Thousand Sons aginst the Word Bearers. I can see it now, Magnus dispatching an elite strike force of Thousand Sons to aid the Ultramarines (before the battle of Prospero happens), fighting and dying to help their brothers, and just at the end of the hard-fought battle the remaining Thousand Sons find out that the Emperor has sanctioned them for extermination. Oh how bitter they must have been after that...

Except the Emperor never sanctions them for extinction, it was the manipulation of Horus which brought the vast destruction down on Prospero and upon the Thousand Sons. On a similar note its been said that it was more probably under the direction of Horus than the Emperor that the Iron Warriors were given such terrible missions to complete.

I always thought it'd be interesting if the TSs or the IW were to find out the truth. How would they react? :confused:

DantesInferno
09-03-2008, 07:57
That supposes that Marines would feel more loyalty to Horus than to both their Primarch *and* the Emperor. That's speculative. How many Marines had close enough contact with Horus, but not with their Primarch, to feel loyal to Horus?

I'd expect there'd be far more Marines in the Loyalist Legions who had been in regular personal contact with Horus than the number of Marines in the Traitor Legions who had personal contact with the Emperor...

That didn't stop Garro, Varren, Tarvitz and so on though.

BrainFireBob
09-03-2008, 08:01
But those same marines need to be more loyal to Horus than their own Primarch, which is where the parallel falls apart.

Wazzahamma
09-03-2008, 08:12
A bad egg is a bad egg. Doesn't matter what legion he belongs to.

BrainFireBob
09-03-2008, 08:45
Yes, but what created the split in the Traitors was the conflict between those whose first loyalty was to their Primarchs and what their legions were at the time and those loyal to the Emperor and what their legions were created to be.

The loyalists won't have that split- their bad eggs gain nothing by supporting Horus, aside from a rapid death from their comrades who might have joined them if their Primarchs had also turned.

DantesInferno
09-03-2008, 09:20
But those same marines need to be more loyal to Horus than their own Primarch, which is where the parallel falls apart.

Why exactly is that a problem? Garro, Varren et al acted as they did because they were more loyal to the Emperor than to their own Primarchs. Why wouldn't there be counterparts in the loyalist Legions who were more loyal to the Warmaster and his vision for humanity than to their Primarchs?


The loyalists won't have that split- their bad eggs gain nothing by supporting Horus, aside from a rapid death from their comrades who might have joined them if their Primarchs had also turned.

Surely you could say the same about the "bad eggs" in the Traitor Legions who turned against their comrades? They knew that they were likely to be quickly killed by their former brothers.

Why did they do it, then? Because they believed strongly in the Emperor's cause.

Surely there'd be some Marines as equally devoted to Horus in the Loyalist Legions as the Marines devoted to the Emperor in the Traitor Legions?

Wazzahamma
09-03-2008, 09:26
I'll say again- Horus, Primarch and Emperor are not the only influences on an Astartes state of loyalty and politics.

Typhon. Kor Phaeron. Think about their stories.

And think outside of that tidy little Emperor-Horus-Primarch triangle and you'll find more than one reason for disparate elements within loyalist legions.

DantesInferno
09-03-2008, 09:47
I'll say again- Horus, Primarch and Emperor are not the only influences on an Astartes state of loyalty and politics.

Typhon. Kor Phaeron. Think about their stories.

And think outside of that tidy little Emperor-Horus-Primarch triangle and you'll find more than one reason for disparate elements within loyalist legions.

Well, yes. I already referred to the numerous other reasons that we'd expect more dissent in the Loyalist Legions than we have heard about to date (see posts #2, #6 and #8).

I was just focusing in the last post on the principled reasons Marines in the Loyalist Legions may have for joining Horus because that's where the main disagreement with BrainFireBob seems to be, and also because it's more interesting anyway.

BrainFireBob
09-03-2008, 10:26
Primary loyalty factors in the average Astartes in the Traitor Legions: Loyalty to Legion, loyalty to Primarch, loyalty to Emperor, loyalty to Imperium.

In the loyalist Legions, those favoring Horus would be too outnumbered to matter. When the Traitors rebelled, those favoring Primarch and Legion were side-by-side with those favoring Horus, against those favoring Emperor and Imperium, who were isolated before they knew it was civil war.

For the scenario to have plausibility, that there would be considerable schism in the loyalist legions, those loyal to Horus would have to be significant in number against those whose first loyalty was Emperor/Imperium, *and* those whose first loyalty was Primarch and Legion. There's suspension of disbelief, and there's ridiculous.

Sure, there's probably potential psychopaths in the loyalist legions- heck, look at Lufgt Huron! It's having the opportunity to act on it that's difficult. And any whose loyalty to Horus outstripped their loyalty to Emperor *and* their loyalty to Legion and Primarch would have to be very small in number.

Most rank-and-file traitors weren't traitors because Chaos was so wonderful, nor because they believed in Horus's cause. They were traitors because they believed in their officers/Primarchs, who did believe in Horus's cause. In fact, they believed in their Primarchs/legion so strongly that they turned on their other source of loyalty, and those who made the other choice were killed.

Now, any rank-and-file in the loyalist legions would not be likely to have sufficient close personal contact with Horus to overwhelm their loyalty to their legion. To support Horus, these rank-and-file, whose respect would be based on Horus's rank of Warmaster, would have to be disloyal to the source of that authority. Any officer around Horus sufficiently to be swayed into Horus-worship over Emperor-veneration would have spent far more time in proximity to their own Primarch, whose visits with Horus- based on what we've seen- would be the reason for their exposure to Horus. And since Horus isn't even able to completely sway his own Legion's high command, I doubt he can overcome the loyalty of other Primarch devotees to their own Primarch.

DantesInferno
09-03-2008, 21:35
Sure, there's probably potential psychopaths in the loyalist legions- heck, look at Lufgt Huron! It's having the opportunity to act on it that's difficult. And any whose loyalty to Horus outstripped their loyalty to Emperor *and* their loyalty to Legion and Primarch would have to be very small in number.

Remember we're talking a combined total of hundreds of thousands of Marines in the Loyalist Legions.


Most rank-and-file traitors weren't traitors because Chaos was so wonderful, nor because they believed in Horus's cause. They were traitors because they believed in their officers/Primarchs, who did believe in Horus's cause. In fact, they believed in their Primarchs/legion so strongly that they turned on their other source of loyalty, and those who made the other choice were killed.

Same with the rank-and-file "loyalists" within the Traitor Legions. They followed their officers too, just in the other direction.


Now, any rank-and-file in the loyalist legions would not be likely to have sufficient close personal contact with Horus to overwhelm their loyalty to their legion. To support Horus, these rank-and-file, whose respect would be based on Horus's rank of Warmaster, would have to be disloyal to the source of that authority. Any officer around Horus sufficiently to be swayed into Horus-worship over Emperor-veneration would have spent far more time in proximity to their own Primarch, whose visits with Horus- based on what we've seen- would be the reason for their exposure to Horus. And since Horus isn't even able to completely sway his own Legion's high command, I doubt he can overcome the loyalty of other Primarch devotees to their own Primarch.

Surely you could use exactly the same argument against the possibility of dissent within the Traitor Legions? After all, any given high-ranking Astartes is far more likely to spend time around Horus than he is the Emperor. And the Emperor wasn't even able to command the respect of all his "sons", who had all spent varying degrees of time with him (far more time than their officers did, at any rate). How, then, was loyalty to the Emperor sufficient to overcome the "loyalists'" combined loyalty to their Primarch and to the Warmaster?

The answer is fairly simple, and it applies in the same way to the possibility of "traitors" within the Loyalist Legions. There are outliers, whose beliefs are strong enough to set themselves apart from the majority. The "loyalists" within the Traitor Legions believed in the Emperor's leadership and in his abilities to lead Mankind.

Given Horus' far greater exposure to officers within all Legions of the Astartes, given his undeniable charisma and talents for leadership and diplomacy, given the display of his abilities in managing the latter stages of the Great Crusade as Warmaster, why wouldn't there be Astartes within the other Legions who trusted in his abilities to lead Humanity better than the Emperor?

BrainFireBob
09-03-2008, 22:26
Yes, but they'd need to be high-ranking and more loyal to Horus than their own Primarch and legion. Ultramarines more loyal to Horus than Roboute? Fists more loyal to Horus than Dorn? Blood Angels more loyal to Horus than Sanguinius?

Also, it's not that the rebels within the Traitors were necessarily just more loyal to the Emperor- there's also loyalty to the founding principles of the Legions.

They would need to be loyal to Horus above all other loyalties, and in sufficient numbers to appear in the history of 40K. That's stretching credulity too far.

thelightbringer
09-03-2008, 23:06
mmmmmm!! The thousand sons I pity the most!! It was Horus that ordered the santion with extreme prejudice on magnus, not the Emporer!! Twisting the original orders!! I find it hard to believe that the Alpha legion would turn though!!

Iuris
10-03-2008, 10:55
I don't think Horus or Emperor ordered the destruction of the Thousand sons.

I'd rather say the Emperor sent Russ with orders of "Magnus has taken up sorcery again. Go to Prospero and do whatever is necessary to stop him and bring him to Terra." Or something to that effect - bring Magnus back for trial.

Then, Horus has a little chat with Russ. Not orders, mind, just a chat. However, in the chat, he stokes the furnace inside the already barely restrained Russ into a full rage which makes Russ go extreme. Comments about how Magnus, Magnus the Witch, disobeyed the Emperor, AGAIN, and he promised, too, even, my, I never, the guy's out of control, where have the good old times gone when we were all brothers, my my, you think he's ever going to change, Magnus? Me, I don't know, he's promised before and look at him sorcing his way again now... Did you hear he even tried to convinced big E I was plotting against him, the nerve of the character, has no appreciation of loyalty like us, the REAL warriors, who know about honour, not that bookish upstart, always thought he was so smart, called us primitive, he did, all the time... Someone oughtta do something about it, oh yes...

Eetion
10-03-2008, 11:23
With the regards to the AL... they were created late on, and were closer to Horus than they ever were to the Empeoro, having fought alongside him for a significant period of time (or was this only Alpharius).
Also given the squad type nature of the Legion, everything is done as groups and in secret.

Its also possible they didnt know they were the bad guys, as the higher rankings had hidden it so well.
If they drop in the massacres and find 6 legions beating down on 3 then they would go with the crowd maybe, not nessacerily fully understood what was happening.

Plus the opportunity to show their skill would be welcomed.

I admitt ive not read Legion yet.... but im looking forward to it.

DantesInferno
10-03-2008, 11:33
Yes, but they'd need to be high-ranking and more loyal to Horus than their own Primarch and legion. Ultramarines more loyal to Horus than Roboute? Fists more loyal to Horus than Dorn? Blood Angels more loyal to Horus than Sanguinius?

Sons of Horus more loyal to the Emperor than to Horus? Death Guard more loyal to the Emperor than to Mortarion? Emperors Children more loyal to the Emperor than to Fulgrim?

It's certainly no less absurd than what we already know happens.


Also, it's not that the rebels within the Traitors were necessarily just more loyal to the Emperor- there's also loyalty to the founding principles of the Legions.

But isn't Horus' cause is far closer to "the founding principles of the Legions" than the Emperor's?


They would need to be loyal to Horus above all other loyalties, and in sufficient numbers to appear in the history of 40K. That's stretching credulity too far.

Remember that the rallying cry of the Traitors during the Heresy was "For Horus and Humanity!".

Plenty of people joined Horus' cause because they genuinely believed that humanity would be better off with Horus in charge. It doesn't mean that they were loyal to Horus above all other loyalties.

Iuris
10-03-2008, 12:48
Maybe there actually weren't any traitors among the loyalist legions. That might explain why the Dark angels would be so keen to hide their own traitors - because no other loyalists had an internal schism?

Mind you, I'm sure there would be some ambitious/spurned marines who would resent their legion enough to switch sides. Of course, whether they'd have a chance to switch sides is another matter...

BrainFireBob
11-03-2008, 06:17
That's my point, Dante- the loyalists aren't presented with a schism of loyalties. Only personal loyalty to Horus, not loyalty to any principle, weighed against all their other loyalties.

The Legions that turned rejected and threw out all that they had accomplished- there was no way they'd not have to re-conquer the galaxy if successful- but had multiple, firm loyalties calling to them. Loyalist traitors . .wouldn't.

Nazguire
11-03-2008, 07:28
I think it's also important to remember that the Primarchs that turned traitor with Horus had a lot more personal exposure then those of the loyalist side. Fulgrim traveled with Horus for years and years on campaign (almost a century) for example. Or Alpharius who spent more time with Horus then he did the Emperor.

And a lot of them were also the outcast brothers of the Primarchs that Horus (in his all loving wisdom) took in as friends while others didn't. This included those like Mortarion (who was a loner almost exclusively save to Horus) and Angron (who was constantly censured by the other Primarchs).

Others were forced Horus' way such as Night Haunter and Magnus the Red.

DantesInferno
11-03-2008, 07:31
That's my point, Dante- the loyalists aren't presented with a schism of loyalties. Only personal loyalty to Horus, not loyalty to any principle, weighed against all their other loyalties.

The Legions that turned rejected and threw out all that they had accomplished- there was no way they'd not have to re-conquer the galaxy if successful- but had multiple, firm loyalties calling to them. Loyalist traitors . .wouldn't.

I don't understand why you think that personal loyalty to Horus is the only thing that could motivate someone from the Loyalist Legions to join his cause.

Why not the view that Horus' cause was just? Why not the view that the Emperor was such an inept leader that it was in Humanity's interests that he be replaced (any Loyalists who spent time alongside the Iron Warriors, Night Lords or Thousand Sons would be pushed towards this view in a hurry....)? What about the view that the Emperor was about to replace the Legions with faceless bureaucrats, and that Humanity would lose its fighting, competitive edge in the galaxy? What about the view that the Emperor was positioning himself (tacitly, at least) in the position of a god?

These were fairly common views in the Traitor Legions which don't in any way rely on a particular sense of personal loyalty to Horus. While they might not be as common in the Legions which turned out to be the Loyalist ones, they're not particularly difficult concepts, and I'd expect at least some within those Legions to have been swayed by them.

BrainFireBob
11-03-2008, 18:59
So they betray not just the Emperor, but their own brothers and Primarch?

Sure, betray your Primarch and sworn brothers for the Emperor, or betray the Emperor for your Primarch and sworn brothers, but both for someone else?

DantesInferno
11-03-2008, 21:34
So they betray not just the Emperor, but their own brothers and Primarch?

Sure, betray your Primarch and sworn brothers for the Emperor, or betray the Emperor for your Primarch and sworn brothers, but both for someone else?

Sure, why not? The "loyalists" in the Traitor Legions betrayed their Primarch, their own brothers and their Warmaster. They did it because they believed in the righteousness of the Emperor's cause.

Surely there would be Marines in the Loyalist Legions who had seen firsthand the Emperor's mismanagement of his Legions, heard the rumours that he had returned to Terra to dissolve the Astartes and place himself as a God, seen the many talents of the Warmaster....

The idea of (principled) traitors within the Loyalist Legions is no more problematic than loyalists within the Traitor Legions. In both cases, they're abandoning their brothers, their Primarch and one of the two figureheads of the Imperium, in order to join the other leader's cause.

grumpy old gamer
11-03-2008, 21:52
There is a horrid amount of sympathy for the T'sons.
I have allways felt that the World Eaters were the true losers. Their Primarch was deliberatley maimed by his "home planet". When he set about sorting it out ala Sparticus ( not sporticus) style he was kidnapped by the E, and those that he had come to love and honour were slaughtered as a result. Then he is left maimed ( I do not believe that E. could do nothing about it) and so was forced to take a role he did not want - Primarch and then fell down the horrendous path of insanity while both Horus his loving brother watched and laughed and used him as a tool and his dad ignored him.
When The Lion went about freeing his "home world" he was a hero and allowed to complete his task and then allowed to gather his warriors for inclusion - this must of grated Angron to some extent.
Then to cap it all off he is made the laughing stock of the Traitors - he is held off by a group of loyalists with bolters on Istavan and then all his mad bad b****ds are made to wear silly hats...ohhh it makes me mad, where's my axe ?

BrainFireBob
12-03-2008, 07:07
Marines. Warrior culture. Revolves around two loyalties. Loyalty to Legion/Primarch, loyalty to Emperor/Imperium.

Mere personal loyalty to Horus trumping both of those together just doesn't make sense. These aren't supposed to be people with a modern sensibility, they're warriors taken from warrior cultures. Horus played on one loyalty against the other- plausible. Maybe, *maybe*, in person, the charismatic Horus could persuade an individual marine to turn on both these central loyalties, instead of placing one well above the other. But c'mon.

Note, that this is separate entirely from sympathy for Horus's stated goal- the Imperium for those that won it, not bureaucrats- but sympathy for the goal is not identifiable in any way with betrayal of Primarch *and* Emperor.

In Western nations, we too often forget that the leisure to weigh and choose our loyalties, and having no central loyalties that define our identities, are luxuries that aren't inherent to the human species.

DantesInferno
12-03-2008, 09:59
Marines. Warrior culture. Revolves around two loyalties. Loyalty to Legion/Primarch, loyalty to Emperor/Imperium.

Mere personal loyalty to Horus trumping both of those together just doesn't make sense. These aren't supposed to be people with a modern sensibility, they're warriors taken from warrior cultures. Horus played on one loyalty against the other- plausible. Maybe, *maybe*, in person, the charismatic Horus could persuade an individual marine to turn on both these central loyalties, instead of placing one well above the other. But c'mon.

Note, that this is separate entirely from sympathy for Horus's stated goal- the Imperium for those that won it, not bureaucrats- but sympathy for the goal is not identifiable in any way with betrayal of Primarch *and* Emperor.

Firstly, you're overestimating the degree of personal loyalty the Great Crusade Marines felt towards the Emperor. There was nowhere near the levels of indoctrination that post-Heresy Chapters introduced.

And secondly, why exactly aren't Astartes officers capable of thinking about what would be in humanity's interests, and then acting as best they can to promote it? Sure, they're brought up in tight-knit warrior cultures, where they're strongly encouraged to be loyal to their immediate superiors. But as we can see from the loyalists in the Traitor Legions, sometimes their principles outweigh such considerations.

Aeolian
12-03-2008, 18:46
I would imagine most of the loyalists in the traitor legions were Terrans.

Brainfirebob, I would remind you that this isn't 40k. The Heresy/Crusade era were despotic and grim yes, but far more 'modern' than the Imperium of 40,000AD. No Imperial Cult, Inquisition, sanctions on technology etc etc

Think 40k but completely remove the 'gothic' element.

BrainFireBob
12-03-2008, 19:09
I disagree about the motivations of the loyalists in the Traitor legions- it wasn't about principles per se, but about loyalty to Emperor and Imperium.

The whole emphasis in the fluff has always been that the Emperor considered loyalty to the Primarchs the same as loyalty to himself. This was the mistake that allowed the Primarchs who rebelled to do so with those loyal to themselves first of all. They were two loyalties that, as it turned out, did not act in harmony.

The loyalists in the traitors don't show principles overwhelming loyalty to their superiors- they show that some Marines held the Emperor as the ultimate superior, and others the Primarchs.

And I'm well aware of the 30K/40K difference. This doesn't change the fact that the FF legions came from warrior cultures, with the possible exception of the Emperor's Children and Salamanders.