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Tarax
08-03-2008, 13:21
The other day I was fighting an Empire army with my own Empire army.

We came upon a couple of situations where we couldn't quite figure out what the ruling was.

First: the old War Altar, if the Arch Lector is killed, what happens to it? Is it still Unbreakable? Can it still cast the Bound Spell? etc.

Second: Outriders, they are Fast Cavalry and carry Repeater Hand Guns, which are move-or-fire. Can they still fire them if they moved, being Fast Cavalry? I said no, my opponent said I could and wondered why I didn't.

Any thoughts?

Griefbringer
08-03-2008, 13:26
For the outriders, being fast cavalry does not override the move-or-fire rule of the repeating handguns.

juample
08-03-2008, 15:51
For the outriders, being fast cavalry does not override the move-or-fire rule of the repeating handguns.

QFT

-War Altar continues in play normally as a normal chariot. (Ok ok it have no crew, but rules are rules...).
-Remains unbreakable after Arch Lector dies.
-Can't cast spells of the lore of Light anymore without the archlector.

PS. Has movement 8 but moves 7" becose barded horses.

DeathlessDraich
09-03-2008, 10:24
1)
a) This has been discussed before and is similar to the Tomb king's chariot. It needs an FAQ. To function as a complete chariot, it must have the 3 chariot components - chassis, crew and steeds. If for some strange reason one component is missing, can it still function as a chariot *in all respects*? That's up to you and your opponent to discuss and determine. In the case above the LD = - or 0.

b) Again debatable - Unbreakable with LD 0?

c) The Griffon "allows the *Arch lector to cast*". Therefore the spell cannot be cast.


2) The only difference to Fast cavalry shooting from normal shooting is it can march and shoot.
If it moves - "the *normal* -1 penalty for moving still applies".
The *normal* penalty for a move or fire weapon is it cannot shoot if the user moves.
Therefore Outriders cannot move and shoot in the same turn.

T10
09-03-2008, 11:28
First: the old War Altar, if the Arch Lector is killed, what happens to it? Is it still Unbreakable? Can it still cast the Bound Spell? etc.



The rules for the War Altar describe both it and the Arch Lector to be Unbreakable as well as having a ward save and magic resistance. The death of the Arch Lector does not change this.

Rules-wise there really isn't a problem. The steeds still provide a leadership value for the unit, a situation we are familiar with from montrsous mounts that have lost their riders.

And yes, the Arch Lector must be alive to cast the spell.

-T10

DeathlessDraich
09-03-2008, 15:24
The steeds still provide a leadership value for the unit, a situation we are familiar with from montrsous mounts that have lost their riders.


Th chariot model's Ld is taken from the crew only - pg 62

Johnnyfrej
09-03-2008, 15:33
The benefit of Fast Cav is you can reform your unit anyway during your movement phase. For instance, if you want to pass through a small crack in a building you can move your horsemen so they are in a straight line and then reform the rank after they pass through.

However, if the Outriders move they cannot fire, no matter the circumstance.

-Private Jon

Masque
09-03-2008, 16:00
Th chariot model's Ld is taken from the crew only - pg 62

I can't find that anywhere on that page or anywhere else in the chariot rules. Can you be more specific?

Shank
10-03-2008, 01:51
Lets not be silly about this. If the War Altar loses the Arch Lector, you should remove the whole model. This is one of those situations where people try to exploit the rules. Are the rules clear in this situation, not really. But common sense says, who the heck is driving the Chariot?

AzureDruchii
10-03-2008, 03:11
Except it is treated as a monstrous mount and therefore is not just taken away. That is why it has a wound value.

It stays on the field and follows all the rules for a chariot imo

-Rex

Atrahasis
10-03-2008, 12:36
PS. Has movement 8 but moves 7" becose barded horses.Barding reduces the movement of cavalry mounts only (pp12).


Th chariot model's Ld is taken from the crew only - pg 62
Not true - statistics with a "-" are never used, however the War Altar's horses have Ld5, and so it can be used if it the best available.

Shank
10-03-2008, 12:38
I don't think it is treated as a monstrous mount, it is treated like a chariot. It has a wound value because it is a chariot and in close combat you can attack the Chariot or Arch Lector.
Again, I think you are really bending the rules if you keep it on the table. Just my opinion.

Atrahasis
10-03-2008, 12:42
You're making up rules if you remove it. That's fact.

Nurgling Chieftain
10-03-2008, 16:51
Barding reduces the movement of cavalry mounts only (pp12).Given that Chaos chariots are slowed by their barding, and there's no other reason for it to be listed, I think the War Altar should be, too.

Atrahasis
10-03-2008, 16:54
Given that Chaos chariots expressly lose movement and the War Altar doesn't mention it at all, and that the HoC book came out before the 7th ed rulebook, I think it's going to take more than your opinion to convince me :)

Festus
10-03-2008, 17:20
Hi

the last sentence of the paragraph on p.12 that you just mentioned can indeed convince you ;)

I am with Nurgling Chieftain on this one - strongly: If it wears a barding and isn't Bret, it moves -1".

Festus

Atrahasis
10-03-2008, 18:07
The last sentence in the paragraph is talking about cavalry (a Knight whose horse wears barding).

juample
10-03-2008, 19:17
There is no reason to state the charriot is draw by barded warhorses if this doesn`t affect to his movement...

juample
10-03-2008, 19:18
There is no reason to state the charriot is drawn by barded warhorses if this doesn`t affect to his movement...

Atrahasis
10-03-2008, 19:26
Except that the model has always had barded horses, and there may at some point arise a condition where it matters.

juample
10-03-2008, 20:26
like the movement penalty ;).

Atrahasis
10-03-2008, 23:54
The movement penalty only applies to cavalry. Repeating your position is not quite the same as having support in the rules for it.

Shank
11-03-2008, 00:29
The movement penalty only applies to cavalry. Repeating your position is not quite the same as having support in the rules for it.

The War Altar gets -1 to movement because it has barded warhorses. If the Arch Lector dies, remove the model. You are really twisting the rules if you play it otherwise.
I don't see the big deal anyway. I have played tons of games with the War Altar and the Arch Lector hasn't died yet!

Dendo Star
11-03-2008, 00:46
I don't want to offend the chap, but if he's playing in a Nottingham tourney there's a good chance he's a WAAC.

Festus
11-03-2008, 08:17
Hi

I don't want to offend the chap, but if he's playing in a Nottingham tourney there's a good chance he's a WAAC.
Are you talking about Atrahasis? :eek:

Then you do not have the slightest idea who you are talking about, mate. But it is true that he knows his WHFB rules like no other - whether he plays like it is a wholly other pot of tea, I daresay... :eyebrows:

Festus

Benigno (WE)
11-03-2008, 10:00
The movement penalty only applies to cavalry. Repeating your position is not quite the same as having support in the rules for it.

Does the Dark Elves Cold bloods chariots also have the movement penalty?

Chaos chariots, movement 7
Empire chariots, movement 8
Dark elves chariots, movement ?

Any other chariots?

Atrahasis
11-03-2008, 10:09
DE chariots are pulled by cold ones, which are not barded but only have a base movement of 7, the same as tuskgor and boar chariots.

Tarax
15-03-2008, 19:40
Sorry to get back at this but...

...Am I right in saying that a character on a chariot (including War Altar) gets a +2 save against missile attacks (including magical missiles) and not when fighting in close combat?

juample
15-03-2008, 23:29
You are right Dude!

(Next time open a new thread! :D)