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Nell2ThaIzzay
10-03-2008, 03:29
my friend and i are trying to figure out how a particular vampiric power / magic item combination might work.

in question, are the vampiric power "lord of the dead" ("vampire may use invocation of nehek to increase units of skeleton warriorts beyond their starting size...") and the magical weapon blood drinker ("for each unsaved wound by the blood drinker, the wielder (or unit he is with) immediately regains a single wound suffered earlier in the battle, as if invocation of nehek had been cast on them").

my plan was to give my vampire the red fury and lord of the dead powers, with the blood drinker weapon, and use all of those attacks to raise skeletons in my unit, and eventually grow larger than the starting size. the wording "as if invocation of nehek had been cast on them" leads me to believe this should work, since the blood drinker is using the ioh effects, with 1 wound regenerated, with my lord of the dead which allows me to go above starting strength.

my friend agrees with me, and so do a couple other people i've spoken to about it, but another disagreed, and nobody has a definative answer, so i was hoping to get some clarification on this matter. thanks in advance.

svien
10-03-2008, 04:12
i would say it would work

NecroNurgle
10-03-2008, 05:19
I was thinking about this same combo last night. It would be cool if it worked this way, but i don't think that's the intention. It says it works as if invocation of nehek had been cast on the unit (so like, in the case of charges where the vampire attacks first, the models he raises don't get any charging bonus) not as if the wielder had cast invocation of nehek on the unit, which would make the intention of the designers pretty clear.

There's a case to be made either way, but I don't think it was the intent of that item. With such poor rules development it's hard to be sure.

Necronartum
10-03-2008, 05:23
Same here it should work. People may argue semantics, but I would stick to your guns. I think the actual mention of 'as if IoN had been cast upon them' as opposed to simply omitting that completely and just stating the bearer and its unit can regain wounds is a clear indication that it was intended for possible use in the way you have mentioned. Although the above poster is a good example of how people could argue against it. And he fields a water tight argument. Who is right? Well thats up for your gaming group to decide. Otherwise, err on the side of caution and assume it doesn't work. At least that way you won't be accused of cheating.

Just my two cents.

SuperBeast
10-03-2008, 10:03
The lord of the dead power actually specifies 'when casting'.

This has already been discussed twice, and general consensus is that it doesn't work.
Sorry...

Nell2ThaIzzay
10-03-2008, 15:08
The lord of the dead power actually specifies 'when casting'.

This has already been discussed twice, and general consensus is that it doesn't work.
Sorry...

and the blood drinker says "as if invocation of nehek had been cast"

T10
10-03-2008, 15:33
I believe that refers to the process of adding wounds/models to the unit, not to how those wounds are generated.

The spell itself has not been cast on the unit.

-T10

The Clairvoyant
10-03-2008, 19:17
I don't think that's a valid combo.

Of course for just 25pts you could have a sword that does do that. The way i read the tomb blade, the unit can and will grow above starting size. The bit referring to IoN, to me, is concerned with ensuring that you put the model in the correct rank, doesn't count as charging etc.

GodHead
10-03-2008, 19:43
I believe that refers to the process of adding wounds/models to the unit, not to how those wounds are generated.


The rule for not increasing units beyond their original size is contained within the rules describing the process of adding wounds/models to the unit.

ObiWan
10-03-2008, 21:26
You don't get that result with that combination.

GodHead
10-03-2008, 21:42
According to what? The sword says "as if invocation of Nehek had been cast on them."

There is no general rule in the Vampire book against increasing units beyond their original size.

The only restriction against increasing units beyond their original size is in the rules for Invocation of Nehek itself. If the swords effect is enough like Invocation that it can't normally increase units beyond the original size, then it's enough like the Invocation to be effected by the Master powers (particularly as it says "as if ION had been cast on them").

Even Summon Undead Horde refers to the method in Invocation of Nehek, rather than a separate general rule. Note that the Master powers would not likely affect Summon Undead Horde, as it makes reference only to the method, not "as if it had been cast."

Bleakwood
11-03-2008, 00:59
Hmm, interesting. I have a Lord with that combo but have never actually considered using it in that way.


According to what? The sword says "as if invocation of Nehek had been cast on them."

There is no general rule in the Vampire book against increasing units beyond their original size.

The only restriction against increasing units beyond their original size is in the rules for Invocation of Nehek itself. If the swords effect is enough like Invocation that it can't normally increase units beyond the original size, then it's enough like the Invocation to be effected by the Master powers (particularly as it says "as if ION had been cast on them").

Even Summon Undead Horde refers to the method in Invocation of Nehek, rather than a separate general rule. Note that the Master powers would not likely affect Summon Undead Horde, as it makes reference only to the method, not "as if it had been cast."

A strong argument, all the way through, espicially the middle part about restrictions on increasing units beyond starting size.

Personally I am usually more concerned with balance and intention than the letter of the rules but even I cant see why this shouldnt be possible.
I had actually thought Blooddrinker to be a bit expensive for taking up the weapon slot considering that there are alternative means of healing, but this adds that little extra shine to it.

Since the point cost for increasing a skellie unit beyond original size is neatly summoned up by the Tomb Blade, then the extra 15 points seems somewhat reasonable for the added versatility of Blooddrinker.

I unfortunately dont have my book here but I am pretty sure that Tomb Blade also adds skellies "as if IoN had been cast" which would mean that LotD would be a prerequsite for any meaningful use of the weapon. That would certaintly make Blooddrinker a far more effective choice.
But, alas, I am not 100% sure on this, since I havent bothered looking on the Tomb Blade twice:p.

Nell2ThaIzzay
11-03-2008, 01:21
According to what? The sword says "as if invocation of Nehek had been cast on them."

There is no general rule in the Vampire book against increasing units beyond their original size.

The only restriction against increasing units beyond their original size is in the rules for Invocation of Nehek itself. If the swords effect is enough like Invocation that it can't normally increase units beyond the original size, then it's enough like the Invocation to be effected by the Master powers (particularly as it says "as if ION had been cast on them").

Even Summon Undead Horde refers to the method in Invocation of Nehek, rather than a separate general rule. Note that the Master powers would not likely affect Summon Undead Horde, as it makes reference only to the method, not "as if it had been cast."

you are right, it says "as if invocation of nehek had been cast" on the blood drinker, where as the tomb blade (and the previously mentioned ummon undead horde) do NOT say "as if invocation of nehek had been cast", only that it raises models as described in invocation of nehek.

that leads me to believe: summon undead horde / tomb blade - summons models as described in invocation of nehek

-it does not count as invocation of nehek being cast, it simply has an identical / similar ability to invocation of nehek, therefore the rules of ioh apply, but it is in itself a separate ability

blood drinker: heals wounds to model and unit "as if invocation of nehek had been cast"

-counts as a cast of invocation of nehek with a d6 result of 1. thus, blood drinker could increase unit size beyond starting (and similarly, the blood drinker would add an extra wound if the unit is within 6" of a corpse cart)

i believe that the difference of wording in the different spells and weapons that supposedly do the same thing are indication of what the intention is.

being able to raise beyond starting size would also add to a 15 point differential between blood drinker and tomb blade, the latter not being able to heal above starting size, as well as not being able to heal the wielder, and wounds being recovered on kills, not wounds.

Demogerg
11-03-2008, 04:33
although i dont have the rulebook with me, i had a long argument about the tomb blade, blood drinking, lord of the dead and invocation of nehek with a group of gamers last week.
i believe the wording on the tomb blade says "Add an extra model to the unit... following the rules of invocation of nehek" and the blood drinker says "restore 1 would to the unit... as if invocation of nehek had been cast."

lord of the dead also does not change the rule for ION, it simply allows THAT vampire's spellcasts to increase unit size beyond starting strength.
the wording on ION starts off by referring to wounds regained, then continues to say that "Some" units may be increased beyond starting size (with no exclusions) at that point it refers to models added to the unit must be done in a strict order...etc...


from what i gather the Tomb blade "Follows" the rules for addng units, champion first, then command line, then rank and file troops up to 5-wide then forming new ranks etc. and it allows you to raise the unit above its starting size (its not a regained wound, its an added model.)

the blood drinker gives wounds back "as if invocation had been cast" and thus LOTD is required to go above starting size, however, it can be used with ghouls/wolves/bats/etc if the proper power is selected which is one reason why it costs more (on top of giving wounds back to the vamp, and giving wounds on wounds dealt, not models killed)

Valadar
11-03-2008, 07:02
Hmm, but doesn't it say: "the wielder immediately regains a single wound suffered earlier in combat", meaning that the unit can only regain a number of models equal to its original size, which, with the lord of the dead power, can be modified.

So say you started with twenty skeletons, you could only gain back wounds up to twenty, but if you used IoN to bring up the unit to say twenty four, then you would be able to use the Blood Drinker's ability to heal your wounds up to twenty four.

The way I understand it, it won't let you add extra models but it will be able to regenerate those that were added by IoN.

theunwantedbeing
11-03-2008, 07:05
The ability allows units to go beyond their starting size, not wounds.
So no 20+ wound vampires.

Valadar
11-03-2008, 07:12
The ability allows units to go beyond their starting size, not wounds.
So no 20+ wound vampires.

I'm aware of that, what I meant was that the sword's ability can only regenerate models/wounds that have been lost, not add more to the original unit size. However, if that unit size becomes modified by a Vampire with the Lord of the Dead power, then it would also regenerate those as well.

SuperBeast
11-03-2008, 08:20
(and similarly, the blood drinker would add an extra wound if the unit is within 6" of a corpse cart)
This pretty much breaks the argument, TBH.

You're suggesting that this item can add 2 models to a unit for each wound caused?

Noldo
11-03-2008, 08:54
May I ask for one clarification please.

Is someone actually arguing that Blooddrinker would be able to give additional models to skeleton unit (example 1 below) or just regain additional models that were previously killed (example 2 below)?

Example 1:
Unit of skeletons, starting strength 20 models + Vampire. Skeletons or vampire have suffered no wounds previously and no Invokation of Nekhek had been cast on the unit (current strength 20 skeletons + Vampire). Vampire with Blooddrinker inflicts 2 wounds. Would 2 skeletons be added to unit? [increasing the unit beyond their starting value]

Example 2:
Unit of skeletons, starting strength 20 models + Vampire. Vampire had cast Invokation of Nekheon unit, making it 23 models strong. Afterwards unit had suffered 2 wounds (current strength 21 skeletons + Vampire). Vampire with Blooddrinker inflicts 2 wounds. Would 2 skeletons be added to unit? [increasing the unit beyond their starting value, but regaining 2 wounds lost previously]

Valadar
11-03-2008, 14:54
The way I'm reading this Noldo, people seem to be arguing about your first example, but I believe that it works in the way you've described it in Example 2. The sword mentions that it heals wounds that were previously taken, meaning that it can only replenish what is lost, using the same process as IoN. I don't believe it works exactly like IoN, only that it imitates its placement process.

Also, just a side note, for those who believe the corpse cart's lodestone effect adds to magical weapons working in a similar way as IoH, it is written; "if a friendly unit...is targeted by Invocation of Nehek, the unit gains an additional wound" meaning it has to be the spell itself that is used to get the mentioned effect.

MalusCalibur
11-03-2008, 16:03
Although it might perhaps make logical sense from a fluff perspective for these two weapons to be able to increase units beyond their starting sizes, I personally don't think it works that way.

All of the 'The Master' powers specifically state the use (i.e. casting) of the Invocation of Nehek spell, whereas the weapons (Blood Drinker and Tomb Blade) only refer to IoH for how you add models to a unit (the procedure mentioned under the description for IoH, in the paragraph beginning 'The wounds in a unit are regained in a strict order'.).

In short, these powers specifically tell us that the Vampire can only increase the relevant units above their starting sizes when using IoH-even if other methods produce similar effects to the spell, they are not casting the spell itself and therefore are not affected.


MalusCalibur

Valadar
11-03-2008, 20:02
All of the 'The Master' powers specifically state the use (i.e. casting) of the Invocation of Nehek spell, whereas the weapons (Blood Drinker and Tomb Blade) only refer to IoH for how you add models to a unit (the procedure mentioned under the description for IoH, in the paragraph beginning 'The wounds in a unit are regained in a strict order'.)

The tomb blade's ability however does let it add extra models, making it possible to go over the original amount within the unit. The only similarity between it and IoN is the model placement when adding them to the unit.

Nell2ThaIzzay
12-03-2008, 03:59
The way I'm reading this Noldo, people seem to be arguing about your first example, but I believe that it works in the way you've described it in Example 2. The sword mentions that it heals wounds that were previously taken, meaning that it can only replenish what is lost, using the same process as IoN. I don't believe it works exactly like IoN, only that it imitates its placement process.

Also, just a side note, for those who believe the corpse cart's lodestone effect adds to magical weapons working in a similar way as IoH, it is written; "if a friendly unit...is targeted by Invocation of Nehek, the unit gains an additional wound" meaning it has to be the spell itself that is used to get the mentioned effect.

here is the difference and why that is a flawed arguement.

there are items and spells that specifically say the effects imitates the ion process, while blood drinker specifically says "as if invocation of nehek had been cast"

that would also include the corpse cart, because again, the blood drinker, with the wording "as if invocation of nehek had been cast" is ACTING as a cast of the spell, targeting the wielder or his unit, with a d6 result of 1.

there is precedent in the book with wording that specifically states the placement process follows that of ion, but says nothing about the item or spell acting as though the spell were cast. that makes the effects a different effect altogether, merely with similar / identical results.

"as though invocation of nehek were cast" is NOT a different effect with similar results, it IS a casting of invocation of nehek. the casting merely comes from the blood drinker, instead of power dice, just as a bound spell is not the spell itself, but works exactly the same way.

Nell2ThaIzzay
12-03-2008, 04:03
Although it might perhaps make logical sense from a fluff perspective for these two weapons to be able to increase units beyond their starting sizes, I personally don't think it works that way.

All of the 'The Master' powers specifically state the use (i.e. casting) of the Invocation of Nehek spell, whereas the weapons (Blood Drinker and Tomb Blade) only refer to IoH for how you add models to a unit (the procedure mentioned under the description for IoH, in the paragraph beginning 'The wounds in a unit are regained in a strict order'.).

In short, these powers specifically tell us that the Vampire can only increase the relevant units above their starting sizes when using IoH-even if other methods produce similar effects to the spell, they are not casting the spell itself and therefore are not affected.


MalusCalibur

you are wrong.

the tomb blade and summon undead horde refer to the placement of models being as described in invocation of nehek. blood drinker specifically says "as if invocation of nehek were cast", meaning that it is the equivelent of a cast of ion. not a different ability altogether with similar results. the wording in the blood drinker specifically says it counts the same as casting invocation of nehek, and the wording of the effects goes to show that it targets the vampire or his unit, and has a d6 result of 1.

MalusCalibur
12-03-2008, 05:18
you are wrong.

the tomb blade and summon undead horde refer to the placement of models being as described in invocation of nehek. blood drinker specifically says "as if invocation of nehek were cast", meaning that it is the equivelent of a cast of ion. not a different ability altogether with similar results. the wording in the blood drinker specifically says it counts the same as casting invocation of nehek, and the wording of the effects goes to show that it targets the vampire or his unit, and has a d6 result of 1.

First, no need for blanket statements. They come across rude.

Second, your reasoning is incorrect. The powers state that the Vampire may use IoN to increase the affected units beyond their starting size. This specifically limits the effect of the power to the use of IoN.

Is slaying an enemy model with the Blood Drinker using IoN? No, it is not. It has an extremely similar result (to the point that it uses the same rules for model ressurection order), but it is still not IoN. The statement 'as if IoN had been cast on them' only serves to strengthen my point: it tells you to ressurect models AS IF the spell had been cast, but it does not tell you that the spell has in fact BEEN cast.
No reading of the item's description tells you that it casts IoN on the unit, which is the ONLY circumstance that the powers work.


MalusCalibur

GodHead
12-03-2008, 07:30
Actually "as if the spell had been cast" goes a long way to standing in place of the spell itself for all secondary effects.

Nell2ThaIzzay
12-03-2008, 15:13
First, no need for blanket statements. They come across rude.

Second, your reasoning is incorrect. The powers state that the Vampire may use IoN to increase the affected units beyond their starting size. This specifically limits the effect of the power to the use of IoN.

Is slaying an enemy model with the Blood Drinker using IoN? No, it is not. It has an extremely similar result (to the point that it uses the same rules for model ressurection order), but it is still not IoN. The statement 'as if IoN had been cast on them' only serves to strengthen my point: it tells you to ressurect models AS IF the spell had been cast, but it does not tell you that the spell has in fact BEEN cast.
No reading of the item's description tells you that it casts IoN on the unit, which is the ONLY circumstance that the powers work.


MalusCalibur

but if the effects were just for model placement, there is precedent in the vc book where there is wording of using ion just for model placement.

summon undead horde: "Alternatively, it allows the Vampire to replenish 3d6 wounds across any number of friendly units or characters. Rebuilt models are placed as detailed in Invocation of Nehek..."

tomb blade: "If the bearer is in a units of Skeleton Warriors, for each model he slays in close combat an extra model is added to the unit following the rules given in the Invocation of Nehek spell"

those 2 are examples of the rules of invocation of nehek being used only for placement, and that it is not the same as invocation of nehek being cast.

blood drinker: "For each unsaved wound inflicted by the Blood Drinker, the wielder (or unit he is with) immediately regains a single wound suffered earlier in the battle, AS IF INVOCATION OF NEHEK HAD BEEN CAST ON THEM."

i don't see how anyone could possibly say it only follows the rules of placement when 1 spell and 1 item specifically state that they only follow the placement rules of invocation, while the blood drinker specifically says it is acting as those ion WERE cast ON that unit.

MalusCalibur
12-03-2008, 16:37
but if the effects were just for model placement, there is precedent in the vc book where there is wording of using ion just for model placement.

summon undead horde: "Alternatively, it allows the Vampire to replenish 3d6 wounds across any number of friendly units or characters. Rebuilt models are placed as detailed in Invocation of Nehek..."

tomb blade: "If the bearer is in a units of Skeleton Warriors, for each model he slays in close combat an extra model is added to the unit following the rules given in the Invocation of Nehek spell"

those 2 are examples of the rules of invocation of nehek being used only for placement, and that it is not the same as invocation of nehek being cast.

blood drinker: "For each unsaved wound inflicted by the Blood Drinker, the wielder (or unit he is with) immediately regains a single wound suffered earlier in the battle, AS IF INVOCATION OF NEHEK HAD BEEN CAST ON THEM."

i don't see how anyone could possibly say it only follows the rules of placement when 1 spell and 1 item specifically state that they only follow the placement rules of invocation, while the blood drinker specifically says it is acting as those ion WERE cast ON that unit.

Even so, it does not change the basic premise that the 'Master' powers specifically say that they work when the Vampire uses IoN. Killing an enemy model with the Blood Drinker is not using IoN, no matter how similar the effect.
As it stands, the ONLY circumstance whereby the power adds an additional model is when the Vampire uses the IoN spell.


MalusCalibur

GodHead
12-03-2008, 17:32
No. I do not think you are correct, for the reasons already given above. However shouting back and forth likely won't get us anywhere when all the arguments have already been given.

Nell2ThaIzzay
12-03-2008, 20:44
Even so, it does not change the basic premise that the 'Master' powers specifically say that they work when the Vampire uses IoN. Killing an enemy model with the Blood Drinker is not using IoN, no matter how similar the effect.
As it stands, the ONLY circumstance whereby the power adds an additional model is when the Vampire uses the IoN spell.


MalusCalibur

it says "as if invocation of nehek were cast on them" (them being the unit).

if the blood drinker doesn't count as a cast, then bound spells don't count as casting the spell either.

blood drinker specifically spells out that it the THE SAME as casting the spell on the unit.

MalusCalibur
12-03-2008, 20:58
it says "as if invocation of nehek were cast on them" (them being the unit).

if the blood drinker doesn't count as a cast, then bound spells don't count as casting the spell either.

blood drinker specifically spells out that it the THE SAME as casting the spell on the unit.

Your logic behind the Bound Spell argument is flawed. Bound items specifically state the spell they carry. It doesn't say 'if cast, treat the target unit as if x spell had been cast on them', as the Blood Drinker does, it states that the item in fact casts the spell in question as a Bound spell.

The Blood Drinker only specifies that its ability works in the same way as IoN. It still does not cast IoN. By slaying an enemy model, the Vampire does not use or cast IoN. The 'Master' powers all state that the Vampire must use IoN to gain their bonuses.
Killing an enemy with the Blood Drinker is not using IoN, it creates an effect which is almost the same, but it is still not the spell itself.
Therefore, the effects of the powers do not apply.


MalusCalibur

Nell2ThaIzzay
12-03-2008, 22:57
except, again, when it is not casting ion, as with tomb blade or summon undead horde, it states that it only acts as described by ion. blood drinker says it is ion.

"as if invocation of nehek were cast on them"

soots
12-03-2008, 23:04
This boils down to who is casting the spell.

The sword, or the vampire?

Yhcrana
13-03-2008, 01:17
Blood drinker states: "the wielder (or unit he is with) immediately regains a single wound suffered earlier in the battle"

Direct quote from my VC rulebook.

You have to lose a wound for blood drinker to restore one. So it cannot raise above starting level.

Tomb blade states: "for each model he slays in close combat an extra model is added to the unit" and " Newly created models are equipped the same as the rest of the unit"

An extra model indicates that it can go above starting strength without the lord of the dead power.

Newly created models also indicates new models not models that have been killed and now brought back to life.

Even though invocation of states: "The target unit regains D6 wounds worth of models." Indicating that models have to be lost before they can be regained.

Both these statements contradict each other.

The sword does not use the vampires powers. It uses its own and works as stated by the item. So lord of the dead has no affect on the sword.

I came to the conclusion that the Tomb blade can make the unit go above the starting strength regardless of the vampires powers whereas the Blood Drinker cannot.

najo
13-03-2008, 08:24
I have to wonder if the very reason we are having debates like this is one of the reasons Gav was let go.

All I see are sloppy rules trying to accomplish the same thing and he didn't remain consistant in his wording.

Blood Drinker costs more because it heals anything. When it wounds, it restores a wound following the placement rules for Invocation.

Tomb Blade raises only skeletons. When it wounds, it restores the wound following the placement rules for Invocation.

Lord of the Dead only works when the vampire actually casts ION on the unit.

One question this raises though, if I ION w/ lord of the dead up extra models and then some of them die, can I blood drinker or tomb blade back those extra models when they die?

Weazle
13-03-2008, 11:46
After carefully reading the rules I have to say that they really are pretty clear.

It says "[...]as if the Invocation of Nehek had been cast on them".

Ie, IoN is not in fact cast by the Vampire itself and can therefore not benefit from his Mastery.

But since it follows all of the rest of the rules of an actual IoN (note the difference between the wordning for Tomb Blade and Summon Undead Horde), it should in fact benefit from a nearby Corpse Cart with an Unholy Lodestone.

Atrahasis
13-03-2008, 12:38
Sorry, how do you reconcile treating it as having been cast and not cast at the same time?

Nell2ThaIzzay
13-03-2008, 14:28
Sorry, how do you reconcile treating it as having been cast and not cast at the same time?

exactly. it can't work as having been cast, but yet, not been cast.

but i think it's pretty clear that it counts as having been cast:

the wording "as if ion were cast on them" says that it is indeed, acting in place of the vampire casting the spell. the blood drinker itself is casting a d6 result of 1 level ion when it deals wounds, just as a bound spell would, because of the wording "as if it had been cast". ion of nehek also states it "regains wounds", just as blood drinker does, but that doesn't stop lord of the dead of adding to the unit with ion, so why should it stop it with the blood drinker, when the blood drinker clearly states that it is an ion cast?

there is wording on other similar items and spells that state it only follows placement rules, so if the blood drinker were to follow only placement rules, it would say so, just as tomb blade and summon undead horde do. but it doesn't say that, it says "as if ion had been cast on them", meaning it is the SAME THING AS CASTING ION ON THE UNIT, therefore lord of the dead applies. if it were just in the case of placement, it would say so, just as summon undead horde and tomb blade do.

MalusCalibur
13-03-2008, 20:45
Nell2ThaIzzay, you clearly won't abandon your flawed logic, since you keep repeating the same, incorrect, point that the Blood Drinker casts IoN.

The 'Master' powers apply only to when the Vampire casts IoN. No other circumstance. It doesnt matter how similar the Blood Drinker's effects are. The powers do not apply to it.

Therefore, as my opinion has been repeatedly stated already, I'm playing no further part in this discussion lest it degenerate.


MalusCalibur

GodHead
13-03-2008, 21:01
Actually, going by the wording of the powers they apply when the Vampire "use['s]" the Invocation of Nehek. Casting it is not a requirement.

Atrahasis
13-03-2008, 21:11
If an effect applies as if Invocation had been cast, then I don't see how a power that applies when Invocation is cast can be disallowed.

Weazle
14-03-2008, 11:12
Sorry, how do you reconcile treating it as having been cast and not cast at the same time?

Oh, it is indeed cast (or rather, an effect is carried out which is identical to a cast with an automatic result of 1 on the d6), just not by the Vampire itself.

"[...] as if the Invocation of Nehek had been cast on them."

Nowhere in the description does it say that you should treat the IoN as if it had been cast by the Vampire, but rather it is cast from a "neutral" source, for example the sword itself.

Necronoxz
14-03-2008, 16:14
Blood drinker
for each unsaved wound inflicted by the blood drinker, the wielder (or the unit he is with) immediately regains a single wound suffered earlier in the battle, as if invocation of nehek had been cast onthem.

Tomb blade
if the bearer is in a unit of skeleton warriors, for each model he slays in close combat an extra model is added to the unit following the rules given in the invocation of nehek spell. Newly created models are equiped the same as the rest of the unit.

Invocation of nehek
target one of your own undead units of characters within 18". the target unit regains d6 wounds worth of models. units with the vampire or ethereal rule, and non-infantry units, are harder to heal and only ever regain a single wound. the wounds in a unit are regained in a strict order. First, the campion is resurrected, and than other command models. these models are placed in the front rank, displacing rank and file models as required. Once this has been done any rank and file models with multiple wounds are healed back to the number of wounds on their profile, then any rremaining wounds resurrect rank and file models normally up to the unit's starting strength, though some units may be increased beyond this size. these models are added to the front rank until it reaches at least five models. additional models may then be added to either the front or rear ranks. If the unit already has more than one rank, new models can only be added to there rear. Characters must be targeted separately to benefit from this spell. if the character is riding a non-cavalry mount the player must nominate whether the rider or the steed benefits from the spell. models that are resurrected within a unit that has charged that turn do not gain charge bonuses in the following close combat phase.

Lord of the dead
the vampire may use invocation of nehek to increase units of skeleton warriors beyond their starting size, and adds +1 to his casting roll when csting invocation of nehek on these units.

I think it's like this:
I hope people agree with me :P

if a vampire in a unit of skelletons strikes with blood drinker or tomb blade he regains skelletons or wounds. with invocation of nehek you cant raise more skelletons than your unit had at the start of the battle. The blood drinker CAST invocation of nehek on the unit. The source is the sword, The owner of the sword is the vampire, SO THE VAMPIRE CAST INVOCATION OF NEHEK BY THE SWORD. When the vampire have the vampiric power lord of dead the vampire can rais more skelletons than the unit it has at the start of the battle becouse the vampire cast the spell invocation of nehek by the sword.

Demogerg
18-03-2008, 18:50
extra model[/B] is added to the unit following the rules given in the invocation of nehek spell. Newly created models are equiped the same as the rest of the unit.

I think it's like this:
I hope people agree with me :P

if a vampire in a unit of skelletons strikes with blood drinker or tomb blade he regains skelletons or wounds. with invocation of nehek you cant raise more skelletons than your unit had at the start of the battle. The blood drinker CAST invocation of nehek on the unit. The source is the sword, The owner of the sword is the vampire, SO THE VAMPIRE CAST INVOCATION OF NEHEK BY THE SWORD. When the vampire have the vampiric power lord of dead the vampire can rais more skelletons than the unit it has at the start of the battle becouse the vampire cast the spell invocation of nehek by the sword.

*i believe the actual wording is "following the rules given for invocation of nehek"
Extra model added, not a wound restored, not a model restored not a wound/model regained, a model added.
Newly created models, IE they were not on the roster, they were not paid for and equipped prior to the battle.

LOTD: the vampire may use ION to increase a unit beyond the starting size, says nothing about magic weapons increasing the unit size, therefore, the Tomb blade (which is pretty direct in describing what happens with NEW models) allows you to go beyond the starting size regardless of your vampiric powers, and the blood drinker does not.

SuperBeast
19-03-2008, 00:53
Actually, having reread, the phrase 'extra model' on the Tomb Blade would suggest that you do indeed keep adding Skeletons. Blimey.

Also means it's exactly the same as the previous incarnation of the tomb blade...

Lordmonkey
19-03-2008, 01:01
Not sure if this has been said already (I only had a quick scan of the thread) but I'm reading the rules for the Blood Drinker now, and it says:

"...immediately regains a single Wound suffered earlier in the battle..."

So, the blood drinker, under any circumstances, does not pay attention to the rules for expanding models beyond their starting size. I appreciate the mention of IoN in this item description, but the Blood Drinker simply does not have the capability to create new unit "wounds", but only restore old ones.

If the sentence read:

"...immediately gains a single Wound..."

then we would have an argument.

Gobbo Lord
19-03-2008, 20:04
My god! I thought my new Orcs and Goblins book was a badly written rules mess ( squig hoppers staying in ranked formation after combat due to awful movement rules ). But it seems this new vampire book is causing more problems. Does all this arguing over uber powerfull weapons/magic combinations remind anyone of 4th/5th edition? Is this new vampire book a return to those herohammer days?

Nell2ThaIzzay
19-03-2008, 23:11
Not sure if this has been said already (I only had a quick scan of the thread) but I'm reading the rules for the Blood Drinker now, and it says:

"...immediately regains a single Wound suffered earlier in the battle..."

So, the blood drinker, under any circumstances, does not pay attention to the rules for expanding models beyond their starting size. I appreciate the mention of IoN in this item description, but the Blood Drinker simply does not have the capability to create new unit "wounds", but only restore old ones.

If the sentence read:

"...immediately gains a single Wound..."

then we would have an argument.

invocation of nehek itself also says "regains a wound", and the lord of the dead power still allows the use of ion to go above starting size...

Noldo
20-03-2008, 06:58
invocation of nehek itself also says "regains a wound", and the lord of the dead power still allows the use of ion to go above starting size...

That is true, but how can the power of the Blood Drinker be activated, unless the unit has actually suffered wounds previously in the battle? (regains a single wound suffered earlier in the battle)

Now, we are still left with argument wheter Vampire needs Lord of the Death in order to regain added models lost to wounds or can any or no Vampire with Blood Drinker do that task.