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boogle
10-03-2008, 15:38
I've noticed that if you take both of these formations with a standard Codex chapter, you would have to take the 5th company as your battle company as the 2nd, 3rd and 4th are all represented by the Masters, has anyone come across this yet, and how have peopel dealt with it?

cheers

Archangel_Ruined
10-03-2008, 15:55
I think in different chapters the chapter masters vary. I think you're refering to the ultramarines in terms of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th, another codex chapter might have their chapter masters from different companies.

boogle
10-03-2008, 16:48
Yeah, all Codex chapters fall into the same category as the Ultramarines

Archangel_Ruined
10-03-2008, 16:54
Well, vaguely, yes. They're the same in terms of number and for the most part organisation, but the masters of the chapter are selected from the company masters, and another chapter might have picked the 4th, 7th and 9th battle company masters. If you aren't using a pure codex ultramarine list then there isn't a problem, as you pick which company and the such to field. It all depends on how pure a codex chapter you're fielding I suppose.

pookie
10-03-2008, 16:54
I've noticed that if you take both of these formations with a standard Codex chapter, you would have to take the 5th company as your battle company as the 2nd, 3rd and 4th are all represented by the Masters, has anyone come across this yet, and how have peopel dealt with it?

cheers

? do you mean the models that were released? Company Masters are the same as a Captain ( they are not the same as chapter masters), a Chpater master, would be head of the 1st Company and the rest of the Chapter ( in a normal Codex chapter ) or have i not understood what your saying?

hiveminion
10-03-2008, 16:58
I've noticed that if you take both of these formations with a standard Codex chapter, you would have to take the 5th company as your battle company as the 2nd, 3rd and 4th are all represented by the Masters, has anyone come across this yet, and how have peopel dealt with it?

cheers

To be honest, I'd just ignore those company numbers listed beside the Masters on the datasheet. They make no sense at all, since the Ultramarines Master of the Watch is supposed to be the 2nd Company Captain (which we know is Sicarius), and should traditionally be armed with a storm shield and axe (yet Sicarius is equipped with twin Lightning Claws).

boogle
10-03-2008, 17:02
the company numbers are a bit hard to ignore as they have the titles next to them, as for the models, as Captaineque model would do.

Ivan Stupidor
10-03-2008, 19:40
To be honest, I'd just ignore those company numbers listed beside the Masters on the datasheet. They make no sense at all, since the Ultramarines Master of the Watch is supposed to be the 2nd Company Captain (which we know is Sicarius), and should traditionally be armed with a storm shield and axe (yet Sicarius is equipped with twin Lightning Claws).

He is armed with storm shield and axe when acting in his role as Master of the Watch. When he's acting as Captain of the Second Company, he is free to choose his personal weapons.

Damocles8
10-03-2008, 19:47
Something I picked up on Horus Rising, if a Company Captain is indisposed for other reasons, someone within the company is set in his stead....

devolutionary
10-03-2008, 19:53
... For the love of all that's unholy! It's Apocalypse! Who cares what they're armed with or what Companies they represent? The actual formation rules do not specify what armaments you need at all, so the text IMO provides a reference based on previous formations only, not a hard and fast rule. I use the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 9th Company Captains for mine, and nobody gives a stuff. The formation listing, iirc, only lists that you need this master and that master, not the company they come from. If you run Space Wolves, you could field this formation as a unit of Wolf Lords.

Apocalypse isn't about definitive absolutes and rules people.

boogle
10-03-2008, 20:00
Of that i'm patently aware, i'm just saying from a background standpoint it can make things a bit awkward (and i play backgroundesque games more than most other games)

devolutionary
10-03-2008, 20:10
Can models be of the same formation twice though? I don't see why not in this case, considering that a Leman Russ company is made up of three Leman Russ squads, yeah? I mean, from a background standpoint it's not unfeasible for each of the 4 masters to bring in enough troops each to make a full company for your battle company formation.

Goruax
10-03-2008, 22:24
Can models be of the same formation twice though? I don't see why not in this case.

Page 101, Apocalypse rulebook.
"Note that a model can only ever be part of one battle formation."

It's to stop people racking up several free assets with the same models.
IE; taking a Kult of Speed as well as a Tanka Mob but using the same warbuggies.

paspinall
11-03-2008, 11:54
For my owen chapter, which is codex in general organisation, then I am just going to paint the chapter masters to reflect the other companies, I mean sure its codex organisation but does that mean they have to have the same Captain's for the same particular jobs ?


? do you mean the models that were released? Company Masters are the same as a Captain ( they are not the same as chapter masters), a Chpater master, would be head of the 1st Company and the rest of the Chapter ( in a normal Codex chapter ) or have i not understood what your saying?

Yeah but he pointed out that from the Chapter Masters formation then then 2nd, 3rd and 4th company captains are represented and as you need to take a captain with your battle compnay formation this means that he would have to take the 5th company as its th eonly one who's Captain is not yet represented.

Oh by the way the Chapter master isnt the head of the 1st Company he doesnt head any company.

Tsillanabor
11-03-2008, 14:42
The Dark Angel Codex states that the Masters of the Chapter are Grand Masters and implies that they are support staff. The Masters of each Company are apparently not part of the Grand Masters.

boogle
11-03-2008, 14:44
Interesting, however the Dark Angels, are as strict in their adherance to the codex as others are

Tsillanabor
11-03-2008, 17:09
Interesting, however the Dark Angels, are as strict in their adherance to the codex as others are

I wouldn't say that-the Deathwing and Ravenwing are not Codex standard. If the ranks of the Masters of the Chapter are different from the ranks of the Company Masters, they can't be the same person very easily.

boogle
11-03-2008, 18:11
I wouldn't say that-the Deathwing and Ravenwing are not Codex standard. If the ranks of the Masters of the Chapter are different from the ranks of the Company Masters, they can't be the same person very easily.

Sorry meant to say Aren't rather than are

paspinall
11-03-2008, 22:08
The Dark Angel Codex states that the Masters of the Chapter are Grand Masters and implies that they are support staff. The Masters of each Company are apparently not part of the Grand Masters.

except we know that at least some of the Company Captain's have the same titles as they have given the chapter masters.

Goruax
11-03-2008, 23:21
It really depends on the Chapter.
Any Chapter can rename the titles as they wish, even the stauchly-Codex ones.
Codex ones might name them after certain rites, traditions, etc which means the ranks could vary from "Keeper of the Evil Monster" to "Holder of the Fluffy Dice when the Battle-Barge is in Motion"

kaptin_anarky
11-03-2008, 23:57
My understanding is that the Masters models are just flashy models you can use to represent that formation, you could use 4 of the plastic commanders done up suitably enough if you wanted to.

Fluff wise IMO the masters are in charge of a company as a symbol of office and that a captain is actually getting in their with the other marines leading them and training them. Being "Master of the something-or-other..." has probably means they're stuck behind a mountain of paperwork and having to do little powerpoint presentations to the chapter master everyday about how effective the last team training fun day has really boosted moral by %10.... or things to that effect

paspinall
12-03-2008, 16:00
My understanding is that the Masters

Fluff wise IMO the masters are in charge of a company as a symbol of office and that a captain is actually getting in their with the other marines leading them and training them. Being "Master of the something-or-other..." has probably means they're stuck behind a mountain of paperwork and having to do little powerpoint presentations to the chapter master everyday about how effective the last team training fun day has really boosted moral by %10.... or things to that effect


Except when you read the Uriel Ventris books you find this isnt the case as he is Captain of the 4th, which brings with it the title of master of the fleet.