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oni
11-03-2008, 00:45
hello, my name is chris. i used to play 40k back in the day, 2nd edition to be exact. i started playing right when 2nd was released and played until 3rd was released. i didn't quit because of the rules change tho. everyone i gamed with didn't like the thought of a rules change and quit so i was left with no one to game with and ended up selling off all my stuff. when i first started i built up a decent sized ultramarines force which i later sold and amassed a very large and very strong eldar force, biel-tan was the craft world.

anyway, after years of having the itch to game again i've finally decided to jump back into the frey. i'm curious what 40k is like these days compared to 2nd edition and if anyone has any advice for someone getting back into the game?

... i know 5th edition is making its debuted sometime this year, so i know to wait for that and the new codices.

CommisarMolotov
11-03-2008, 00:59
You're gonna find it WAY different than 2nd edition. Overwatch, strategy cards, vehicle cards and grenades have all gone the way of the dinosaur! It's more unit-based than character-based, combat has gotten a lot simpler, and weapon armor modifiers have been replaced by a simpler "AP" stat that has nevertheless encouraged the spamming of certain weapons that shall not be mentioned...

It certainly plays faster than 2nd. Whether or not it's "better" is a judgment call.

oni
11-03-2008, 01:10
i can't say that i'll miss overwatch. that was one rule that i've seen abused worse than a red headed step child. grenades tho... wow, really? i never really used them. i used to play on non standard sized tables that never really allowed you to get close enough to use them effectively.

Coragus
11-03-2008, 01:17
If you liked 2nd, you might be disappointed. 4th is better than 3rd, but it's far blander than 2nd. Different armies have the same 6 inch move, and most tactics come down to either rolling a bunch of dice or moving foreword 6" and rolling a bunch of dice. It also lacks a lot of the customization that 2nd offered, and if you're used to holding up a whole flank with a single character that you've tooled up, you're in for a rude surprise.

Dribble Joy
11-03-2008, 01:26
Grenades almost exclusively impact close combat. In some ways CC works a little more like WHFB, though it's allways done on initiative. For example, say 5 marines charge 10 guardsmen. Marines have one attack, plus one for charging. They are I4 so they strike before the guard at I3. Every model that's in base contact and those within 2" of a friendly model in base contact get to attack.
Assuming they are all in, that's 10 attacks. The marine's WS4 is higher than the guard's WS3, so they hit on 3+. Wounding is the same, but there's no save mods. Any guard remaining that can attack can. With lower WS they hit on 4s (only hit on 5s if under half their WS).
If the guard were in cover then they would strike at I10, but if the marines had frags, they would also attack at I10.

Shooting is more or less the same, but there's not to-hit modifiers. Cover provides a type of unmodified save.
Save mods have gone, instead you get your save or you don't. If a weapon's AP value is equal or lower than your save, you don't get it. A bolt gun is AP5, so guard (5+) and ork boys (6+) won't get an armour save, but another marine (3+) will.


If you liked 2nd, you might be disappointed. 4th is better than 3rd, but it's far blander than 2nd. Different armies have the same 6 inch move, and most tactics come down to either rolling a bunch of dice or moving foreword 6" and rolling a bunch of dice. It also lacks a lot of the customization that 2nd offered, and if you're used to holding up a whole flank with a single character that you've tooled up, you're in for a rude surprise.

Well I'd say that there's still plenty of tactics about, though it depends on the number and variety of armies/people you play against.
4th is plenty customisable, you don't need 50 options for a unit to get variation. It just takes some imagination.

As for Hero-Hammer, frankly.... thank **** it's gone.

oni
11-03-2008, 01:30
well, i used to play epic 40k also and loved it for its large scale battles, but simplistic way of handling so many units.

im neither here nor there about having war gear loaded characters reaping havoc. i've had fun doing it, but i've also been annoyed by it.

i think the thing that i may miss the most is the psychic phase and the tactics that went with it. a good player could really sway the battle in their favor with a good psychic phase strategy. particularly the eldar.

Dribble Joy
11-03-2008, 01:34
Eldar are still the masters of psychic powers, they have some really nasty ones. Getting rid of the farseers can be top priority.

Most other races have them too. Though there's no phase, they can still be very effective units (though in the Ork's case something of a 'Spanner in the enemy's plan', due to their unpredictable nature).

oni
11-03-2008, 01:41
i know there's a lot of stereotypes about space marines, but i was going to jump back in with another ultramarines force. i'm not sure why, but they really appeal to me. what are the positives and negatives about running them these days?

Bounou
11-03-2008, 02:19
I was in the same situation as you actually Oni, left the game when 3rd came out and came back just in time for 4th, overall the rules are much better but also much simpler.

It's still tons of fun and the models have gotten much better. Overall actually i think you will find the game is much more about painting and modeling then it used to be, game is simpler painting as models become quite the art form.

dblaz3r
11-03-2008, 06:41
Yes I was also in the same boat not so long ago. The game is alot different than 2nd but I like it. It's much faster, depending on who your opponent is, and awhole lot simpler (though sometimes I get stuck on some rules) and the models, oh they are fantastic!!! :D

Dribble Joy
11-03-2008, 06:51
i know there's a lot of stereotypes about space marines, but i was going to jump back in with another ultramarines force. i'm not sure why, but they really appeal to me. what are the positives and negatives about running them these days?

There really isn't an 'average' army these days, but marines in general have the capacity to go in either direction, shooting based or assault, or a mix of the two, orks are similar.. just lower quality and higher numbers.
Plus marines generally get access to the best kit going, not many armies have 4+ invulnerable (new name for unmodifiable) saves, the infamous assault cannon and the Land Raider, plus other goodies. As a result they can usually deal with anything that comes along.

Word of warning though, 5th Ed. is coming out in a few months, but the core rules are pretty similar to 4th.

carlisimo
11-03-2008, 07:38
Yeah, Eldar are still good at psychic powers, but today's "awesome powers" are nothing compared to the utter insanity (ie cheesefest) of yore. It's a simpler, quicker, more balanced game, much better suited to large games than the old system. The models are what have advanced the most though, and they're what got me back into it after a similar story to yours. And even though I never liked Marines, I'm going that route too. Not just a beginner's army, but one for begin-againners too.

TigerWraith
11-03-2008, 11:43
Id like to get some info from a few players as well, Ive been playing since 3rd Ed. But stoped just before 4th ed due to moving and not being very close to a store. Im looking to get back into 40k. I have 2 very sizable armys, Tau and Death Guard. Ive been reading up, but it seems Chaos Marines have changed and theres no rules for Faction armys anymore, is this correct. The new dex doenst allow free Aspiring Champs if you field 7 or 14 figures in a squad? And if im reading the new dex correct, Chosen can no longer be in Termy armor? If this is so, then I have alot of 2nd ed death guard that arent going to have very good rules anymore.

TheOverlord
11-03-2008, 12:12
Well, the chaos list is definitely different from it's previous incarnation, but nothing that will force you to throw away any of your models.

Chosen may not wear terminator armor, but terminators can be chosen. Ok, to be succinct, basically it's still the same, except that it's in 2 different entries. Chosen get their own entires, and terminators can be upgraded into Chosen for an extra 10 points. No real difference here except the lack of special weapons non-terminator armored chosen can bring to the field + infiltration.

There are no specific rules for the Legions, yes, but this only makes it that much easier to create the Legion in the way you think best realizes it. You'll still use most of your models if not all, and there are a few points that people tend to pick on like a dog with a bone, but it's very minor, and if you're willing to overlook it your chaos army will be exactly as it used to be, maybe except a little better now with Death Guard units.

TigerWraith
11-03-2008, 12:51
What about Deathguard getting Fast Attack if they take a specific number of Rhinos? Id have to go reread the rules but I think after the 2nd or 3rd Rhino the Next rhino became a Fast attack, or im guessing Death Guard now have access to raptors now?

EVIL INC
11-03-2008, 13:18
i know there's a lot of stereotypes about space marines, but i was going to jump back in with another ultramarines force. i'm not sure why, but they really appeal to me. what are the positives and negatives about running them these days?

You may just be in luck if your wanting an ultramarines force. Go to this thread...
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129187
When the new set comes out soon, you may be able to ammass a sizable ultramarines force pretty easily and cheaply as many people sell off the models that they dont want to use in the starter box or even if you just pick it up yourself and sell off the ones you dont need. Ideally, find a few ork players and just trade off. You might also want to start advertising now in the trade section here for extra models in order to get dibs on ones you think you will need. As it is rumored that the marine models will have ultramarines iconography moulded on, they wont be as populer as basic generic marines will be.
Good luck and welcome back. :)

oni
11-03-2008, 16:26
Thanks. I think I'll hold out for the new mini's. I would very much like not having to paint on the upside down Omega simbol. :)

The Song of Spears
11-03-2008, 16:46
I think a pretty good way of describing modern 40k is that the game is now a general table top strategy game and not a exact representation of the 40k universe or literal future warfare.

What i mean is that, rules have changed to no longer try and be literal representations of stuff in 40k. You now have rules that simply allow for flavored tactics determined by army fluff.

For instance. While Chaos fluff may include renegade militias who have been corrupted or mass deamon incursions or traitor marines with weapons gifted to them by chaos, not all that is in the Chaos codex.

Its much more like a CCG now, where each army has a playstyle that is roughly like their fluff might describe. But while Eldar might hand out plasma grenades to every guardian who joins them, you cant give guardians plasma grenades in the actual game of 40k. And while there might be mutant renegades running from the imperium, there are no mutation rules like there used to be.

Now what you do is find a set of rules you like and them model citadel minis to fit the lists options.

GW has even gone as far as to remove Ancient Enemies from Chaos and craftworld limitations so that you can field ANY mix of units you like. My Iron Warriors have 'plague marines' which I have modeled with cybernetics to show why they have 5 toughness and Feel No Pain. This is now perfectly legal.

Furthermore GW has taken out all the stops on characters. Eldard may be included in any Eldar army, at any point range. Characters have turned more into 'named pre-made HQs' so that the wargear choices and points are pre-balanced for that HQ. So the character is not really eldrad as much as he is 'pre-made eldar HQ #1"

The game is greatly shifting away from list creation and more to table top gameplay. I would not be surprised in 6th or 7th ed 40k to have codex come with pre-made lists you have to pick from.

So with that said, find a army of models you like, find some rules that fit their look and feel and play the game for the fun of table top generalship, not worrying why a deamon prince can not have deamon weapons, its not the point of 40k anymore. (assuming that even crossed your mind of course :p )