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rcm2216
11-03-2008, 05:36
In the fourth edition, what army is the best assault army, or which army is the best at assault combat.

With the fifth edition rules coming out, what assault based army will shine the most. Which army will smit the rest and be the best assault army.

I am trying to see if their will be a power shift in the assault armies. Based on you analysis will their be balance in the 5th edition. With things like run, everybody will be moving faster. I think the Orks will dominant later whereas the nids shine now, with the Dark Eldar holding second until their redo.

505
11-03-2008, 06:18
IG and tau :D

oh wait they get into combat faster. never mind :D

rolly_321
11-03-2008, 07:58
Well, though I've never seen it done I reckon WH could actualy do some serious damage. The Repenta Sisters may actulay be able to catch up with something a unit of 20 along with 12 Arcos and 9 Pen Engines would be damn harsh against any combat orientated elite force such as Khorn. Pens and Arcos rip them apart.

centy
11-03-2008, 08:14
I play Blood Angels and i think witch hunters pay be the one.

BloodAngelLH
11-03-2008, 09:07
That's interesting that you guys think the seldom used close combat units for WH will be worthwhile in the next edition. Hopefully that's true, just for an even greater diversity in army choices.

I'm thinking orks simply because of the number of bodies you can get on the board all moving 3-4 inches more a turn.

Archangel_Ruined
11-03-2008, 11:58
Eldar tailored for it. Although eldar can be tailored to be the best at everything, so I'm not sure if that's cheating...

intellectawe
11-03-2008, 12:10
Here goes my fan boy answer....

Dark Eldar. But unless you know what you are doing and your opponent isn't a complete buffoon... You won't get anything into assault.

For the laymen, stick with Orks.

- edit -

Oh, mark my words.... When DE get redon... They will be weakened, not strengthened. No way to strengthen assault in the current DE book, it's pretty much as powerful as your gonna get.

TheOverlord
11-03-2008, 12:18
I agree on the Dark Eldar bit. Played with a competent commander with appropriate setting/terrain, they can easily massacre an entire flank in a single turn. This however is like a silver dagger. Very precise and fine tuned, but easily bent if you twist it wrong.

For a solid, works for everyone sort of assault army, I'd put my bet into Orks. Solid and dependable hammer (if a little crazy)

Archangel_Ruined
11-03-2008, 12:50
Orks are good, but the rending horror of harlequins still get my vote when used well. I think you're spot on for the hamfisted amongst us though, 60 boys and six trukks is some fast moving hard hitting grunt.

Neo799
11-03-2008, 13:14
Why are the first 1-2 replies always daft? WH!? Honestly!

Orks and Tyranids are probably the best current assault armies. No one plays DE, but I know they can be awesome.

sliganian
11-03-2008, 13:35
I think Orks will be very tough to deal with. Run + Waaagh! = Turn 2 assaults, unless you are very careful.

Also, we might finally see the return of the Assault Carnifex (as opposed to the standard Shooty Fex), thus putting the Carnifex back where it is supposed to be as a living engine of rampaging, line-breaking destruction.

wickedvoodoo
11-03-2008, 13:38
Tyranids get some interesting new tweaks in 5th edition. Feeder tendrils will get a hell of a lot better, plus scuttle now means they can flank attack. Plus monstrous creatures can run to bring short range weapons in range and to get into CC faster.

I think orks might just edge it though, i am not at all looking forward to my friends ork army being able to run at me.

Archangel_Ruined
11-03-2008, 13:48
It isn't all about brute force, a great CC army picks what it wants to kill, which is why eldar and dark eldar are so horrible when used correctly. I think that's why they'll still be better than orks and nids when wielded like a scalpel, dropping units at a time and staying out of reach until it's too late. Harlequins wont be hurt too much by the changes to rending as they have such high initiative and attacks with strength 4 on the charge, and DE are just broken so another change wont matter to them. Orks running will be a neat trick, but then you can shoot at orks, you can't with harlies and you can't at well used DE.

rolly_321
11-03-2008, 14:02
Why are the first drafts daft? Good question. Why is yours hypocritical?

If your gonna knock down statments as daft, provide more than an insult. Otherwise your no better mate.

Back on track, I reckon your right. Nids, Dark Eldar and Orks would be the most effective combat armies, thats what they're designed to be. However, I beleive the WH while not actulay a combat force have some wakky and down right nasty CC units at their disposal, which will only be strenthened by the new rules. They're effecivness would be largly determinded on what they faced, but then again I'm sure you could also tune any army to wipe out combaty Orks or Nids or whatever. The term best is an open term however. I like to think that WH in my opinion would make the best Assult army because it's just plain fluffy and cool to watch a army themed around penetent heritics and repenta sisters smash the snot out of people in the name of the Emporor. And they can actulay do it, ask around and you'll hear countless stories about that damn 2+ invul save Cannoness of doom bitch slaping Hive Tyrants or single units of Arcos wiping out an entire table quarter of marines.

They wont win everytime, but its a damn sight cooler when they do, there are enough generic Orks and Nids out there (maybe not so with Dark Eldar, but just look at the modles), time for a curve ball it say.

Peace out.

boogle
11-03-2008, 14:31
Blood Angels if you take their troops choices as Assault squads

Francis29
11-03-2008, 17:21
My vote goes to cc orientated eldar, banshees scorpions and harlequins can do so much damage on a charge. at the club i play at people hat the sight of the death-clowns, let alone the havoc they wreck in combat.

Argurios
11-03-2008, 18:27
I would say Space Wolves, the amount of assault weapons and power weapons, fists etc you can pack into your army makes them deadly up close.

Neo799
11-03-2008, 19:13
Why are the first drafts daft? Good question. Why is yours hypocritical?

If your gonna knock down statments as daft, provide more than an insult. Otherwise your no better mate.

Haha, I made you so mad you had to take a swig of Mountain Dew, lick the Dorito crumbs off your fingers and write an angry reply! :p

I said they are daft because he asked what the best assault army is and the first reply was nonsense and yours was Witch Hunters.

Defcon
11-03-2008, 21:31
Haha, I made you so mad you had to take a swig of Mountain Dew, lick the Dorito crumbs off your fingers and write an angry reply! :p

I said they are daft because he asked what the best assault army is and the first reply was nonsense and yours was Witch Hunters.

Are you on Warseer? Did you find your way here without threat of bodily harm? Then you are a nerd who shouldn't be so quick to fire those stereotypical gems from the hip.

Sceleris82
11-03-2008, 21:37
My choice is Tyranids, they have so many nasty close combat monsters.

Toramino
11-03-2008, 21:42
Dark Eldar if used correctly can be the most devastating army in the game, but can easily go wrong for you. Id go with Blood Angels for all round effectivness, they dont need a lot of skill to play, and theyre very forgiving with the high toughness,high armour, DC FNP, but id go with DE for the potential hurt they can inflict.

rcm2216
11-03-2008, 21:56
Torimano, can you go more into detail as to why you said blood angels would be a good second choice. How do you use blood angels.

rolly_321
11-03-2008, 22:11
Defcon:
Actulay it was pepsi and and CCs. ;)

Don't worry man, I didn't actulay take your comment to heart or some such, just felt like pointing out a problem that may arise from unbacked sweeping statments. Not looking to turn this thred into a fight.

Anywho, as stated I didnt point out whitch hunters because i believe them to be in any way the most capable assult army, i just happen to see potential in their Elite and Heavy section for a left of field assult army thats got a new take on things. And I reckon against some armies such as the aformentioned Blood Angles they could actualy do quite well, at the same time, I think they'd lose to CC orientated IG.

This is starting to become a broken record however so ill shut my trap, acept your point for the merit ot does carry and bugger off.

rcm2216
12-03-2008, 04:29
bump!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dribble Joy
12-03-2008, 05:03
Meganobs.

I have 19 plus an MA WB and Gazzy. Wiped out a DE army today, beaten two different Templar players and a DH army recently too. Only problem I've had was an Eldran lead falcon/harlie tourney. Too much rending and AP2 stuff about.

sunkist
12-03-2008, 13:03
As a Tau player, I think cc oriented Eldar with Harlequins are my worst fear because they are very fast (fleet of foot, no difficult terrain handicap) and difficult to shoot with their Hollow Field.

toxic_wisdom
12-03-2008, 14:40
"...Oh, mark my words.... When DE get redon... They will be weakened, not strengthened. No way to strengthen assault in the current DE book, it's pretty much as powerful as your gonna get..."

Yeah, I'm sure you're right. GW is going to take an army that has a codex nearly ten years old and for the most part available mail order only - give them a face lift and some new rules, but in the process completely nerf them so that people that never played them before will surely never play them now.

Okay seriously. GW is a business. There is no point of new support of the Dark Eldar line if its isn't worth buying. DE will not get weakened - and by comparrison look at the path of new dexes before them... Eldar... Chaos... Orks... all of them improved.

sliganian
12-03-2008, 14:50
...There is no point of new support of the Dark Eldar line if its isn't worth buying. DE will not get weakened - and by comparrison look at the path of new dexes before them... Chaos...... all of them improved.

I dunna think that word means what you think it means....

OverchargeThis!
12-03-2008, 14:53
Blood Angels if you take their troops choices as Assault squads

Eh. BA are downright nasty, but the drawback is they have to put lots of points into effective HQ's and the death company. You end up with a relatively small army. If you go with assault squads as troops, then Dante is pretty much required. It's do-able. But I would say that if you have a small army, you'd better be fast.

To my own experience, 2 assault squads, dante, 10-man DC with packs, a chaplain to control the DC, and lots and lots of mechanized fire support is the formula. That's not a pure assault army, though.

There are some build that will work against some opopnents, but not all of them. In 1500, imagine 2 large scout squads with PF, 2 large assault squads with PF, a large DC with jumps, and dante/lemartes. Lots of models, and they'll probably carve through an orc cc-oriented horde rather effectively, and slaughter IG, Tau, DH, WH, and most regular SM armies. But against nids and maybe balanced shooty CSM with lots of basic chaos marine squads, I don't see it being as effective.

I'd have to say nids myself. I'd put BA in the category in this edition of a finesse army hat requires eldar-like speed (and is capable of it) in order to be most effective. Veteran BA players will likely win most of their games if they stick to the real core BA advantage, which is mobility IMHO, though.

rcm2216
12-03-2008, 16:44
The codex have not been improved, according to who's opinion. They are not a piece of dodo either. In Eldar, they toned down the MEQ killing stuff, and took away the craftworld builds. The Eldar are not as powerful eventhough harlequins do add a true punch. The Eldar in my best estimate have been altered not for the better, but for balance. The exchange between the codex is doable.
In Chaos, they took away real deamons, veteran skills for every troop, indirect firer for the defiler. Chaos players use to be like 30 percent of the hobby. They have but all but disappeared in my neck of the world. I think I know one straggler, the rest have jumped to new armies (I personally knew about twenty Chaos players)
Orks they took away the choppa rule of no better than 4+ save (well you might have an argument for this one). Orks did seem to get a little extra boost to their codex. I do think they went overboard with Orks making them to shooty, lets say 18 inch range assault 2 bolt gun (this was to much), lootas in an ork army that already has flash gun guys which fit better to the Ork theme. No not every dex got better, just adjusted.

tanglethorn
12-03-2008, 17:13
No one mentioned Black Templars? Neophytes to absorb casualties? Vows and Emperor's CHamps? Falling foward after being shot at? They have a few more tricks up their sleeves as well.

El_Phen
12-03-2008, 17:23
I sincerely believe that A Khorne flavoured Chaos Space Marine army is the best. Your standard troop has, on the charge, four strength five, initiative five attacks, and a 3+ armour save. Couple that with, say, Rhinos, a four melta gun Havoc squad (or two) and possibly a defiler or terminators and that there is a super-killy-assaulty army.

Long_Fang
12-03-2008, 17:37
Yeah Witch Hunters will still be poop in hth. The hth units are far to expensive and can't even take a pie to the face.

4th best: Tyranids.
why? Many quick deadly hth units.
5th best: Tyranids
why? Many quick deadly hth units.

Valo
12-03-2008, 17:39
Blood Angels if you take their troops choices as Assault squads

I second that.If you take the pure JP list,with a full 10 man strong death company,with lemartes on the charge thats like 40 plus attacks all at
S5,rending,and you can re-roll all misses...for one squad....and a furioso dread in a drop pod,good for a tank hunting role,not to mention damn near unstopable in CC againt infantry unless you come up against a power fist,and 10 man assault squads.not to mention the vet. assault squads and honour guards.

Man I love my blood angels!

intellectawe
12-03-2008, 17:50
I dunna think that word means what you think it means....

Yeah, I was going to agree with Toxic until I got to that part.

He tossed his credit right out the window.

@ Toxic

Yes, DE will get weakened. 10 years, 5 years, 20 years... age doesn't make a difference. The DE book was a spectacular book in terms of raw power.

Who here thinks DE warrior units will stay with 10 point dark lances, or that wyches will keep their 4++ save and 1 point 'imma rape you' wych weapons.

I hope I am wrong and you are right down the road!!!!! But I don't see DE getting a boost in strength at all.

Long_Fang
12-03-2008, 17:58
None of that could stand up to a flying tyrant, circa 30+ stealer (I6, fleet, hitting most things on 3+, 2 attacks rending), 2 carnifexes and some sprinkling of gaunts here and there.

Eating armies for breakfast in assault. I hope there is no doubt no army can out do this? This is pure hth, very very few points oriented to any kind of longe range, no silly BS4 or bolter points....pure hth madness!!

Long_Fang
12-03-2008, 18:04
I forgot to add, no running away or "tactical retreat", just sticking around....mmmm...can you not feel it?

monsterofthedeep
12-03-2008, 18:14
Here goes my fan boy answer....

Dark Eldar. But unless you know what you are doing and your opponent isn't a complete buffoon... You won't get anything into assault.

For the laymen, stick with Orks.

- edit -

Oh, mark my words.... When DE get redon... They will be weakened, not strengthened. No way to strengthen assault in the current DE book, it's pretty much as powerful as your gonna get.

this guys so right,theres a common misconception that dark eldar are weak,indeed they are neglected with their old models and 2nd ed book but they are most certainly not weak.they are sick and wrong. in the hands of a dude who knows what hes doing dark eldar are terrifying

toxic_wisdom
13-03-2008, 02:54
"...He tossed his credit right out the window..."

Really ? So you believe GW ( as a business ) is going to reintroduce the DE line after x number of years, and nerf the army in the hopes of making money ?.. :eyebrows:

intellectawe
13-03-2008, 04:54
Really ? So you believe GW ( as a business ) is going to reintroduce the DE line after x number of years, and nerf the army in the hopes of making money ?.. :eyebrows:

I do see your point. I just hope you are right. Sorry for making this go off topic.

Vexbane
13-03-2008, 05:01
I will say Tyranids and DE are the all around best HtH armies.They can be more tailored than any other army towards HtH IMO and are down right mean. If carnifexes do indeed get to fleet (most likely) Then I will say Tyranids are the best HtH army, at least until DE are redone.

Wolf Sgt Kirke
13-03-2008, 06:04
I would say Space Wolves, the amount of assault weapons and power weapons, fists etc you can pack into your army makes them deadly up close.

gotta agree, especially bearing 15 man bloodclaw packs in mind!

spaint2k
13-03-2008, 06:46
Seriously, I think that anyone wanting to play a killy-assault army should only be allowed to play with Khorne Berserkers. Forget about havocs, all pretence of tactical flexibility should fall away as the frothing madmen of your warband arm themselves exclusively with close-combat weapons.

Game-effectiveness be damned. Go for the fluff, I say.

Steve

rcm2216
13-03-2008, 16:35
The DE thing might or will change with their suppose codex update. I did not think about the nids anymore. The number of nid players have decreased around these parts. Nid rules can allow them to beat Orks in horde versus horde close combat since Orks are not fearless.

intellectawe
13-03-2008, 18:59
..... since Orks are not fearless.


Ha....

Yes they are :)

An Ork mob of 11+ models becomes Fearless.

CbmH2xX
13-03-2008, 19:32
An all Berzerker army isn't that far from being as good if not better than DE and Tyranids at HTH. Thanks to the 35pt rhino and the decreased LR cost You can really give DE and Tyrands a run for their money. Kharne is my friend!

CrimsonTider
13-03-2008, 19:39
I go with the BA or SW army lists. The wolves can certainly put out a lot of cheap but effective assault troops using the blood claws and all their weapon options, especially led by Ragnar and his ferocious attacks. They simply lack mobility.

BA assault troops are expensive, but they certainly have mobility. If led or close by Dante, they become very effective (that inspiring presence and all that, as well as the fear he causes nearby opponents). BA veteran assault squads, with the weapons options they have (up to 3 power weapons/fists/claws/hammers per squad, as well as options for flamers/plasma pistols) makes them very effective, very fast, and when combined with Dante they become very cost efficient as well. Dante leading an assault group made up of several assault squads and a couple of veteran squads as well, plus DC, man you gotta love that charge.

To me, Eldar/Dark Eldar/and WH all lack the staying power. With low strengths and low toughness, and usually low armor saves, they don't last long enough to take advantage of their WS levels and their low points costs. Plus, most of them have a tough time causing a wound on a T4 marine.

Take banshees... WS 4 (or 5 for the exarch) with all power weapons. Fast moving with fleet of foot, but they lose their shooting ability when they do it. Without it they don't move any faster than a normal schmoe. When they charge, they get a lot of attacks, and they hit with approximately half against marines. but with their low strength, they wound on 5 and 6s, not 4+. Then when they are hit back, their lower toughness and lower armor save means they die faster. If it were not for their high initiative and banshee mask, they would not be worth the cost at all.

rcm2216
13-03-2008, 19:52
Crimson Tider how do you equip your veteran squads for your blood angels.

Codsticker
14-03-2008, 02:14
Oh, mark my words.... When DE get redon... They will be weakened, not strengthened. No way to strengthen assault in the current DE book, it's pretty much as powerful as your gonna get.
An interesting take; one that may turn out to be (unfortunately) accurate.


...CC orientated IG.

:confused: What's this nonsense? ;)

Quentin
14-03-2008, 03:00
:confused: What's this nonsense? ;)

He's not far off the mark, I think. If you use the Renegade Militia list from IA5, you can potentially have 6 units of 50 strong Workers Rabble units, equivalent to Guard Conscript platoons, except they have the option to all wield CCW's.

At around 1500 points you can have 300 CCW equipped conscripts, 2 Basilisks and a Renegade Command Squad.

I speculate that such an "Assault Wave" style army could overwhelm most opponents through sheer numbers of attacks and bodies.

CrimsonTider
14-03-2008, 17:06
Crimson Tider how do you equip your veteran squads for your blood angels.

Squad 1 has a powerfist and two power weapons. Squad 2 has a thunderhammer and either two sets of lightning claws or two additional thunder hammers. It depends upon whether I intend to use them as a general squad or a tank/monster hunting squad. three t-hammers in a squad makes a mighty mean MC crusher.

Both squads also have a couple of guys with meltabombs too, just in case. A lot of the guys I play aorund here use a lot of tanks/armor.

My typical list has three assault squads, two veteran assault squads, the DC, Dante, and a chaplain. I attacj Dante to a veteran squad, the chaplain to the DC, and then just move forward as hard and as fast as I can.

I played an APOC game just this last weekend with a limit of 5000 points. I got to play 101 assault marines, boltered by 6 dreadnoughts (3 furisouso, 3 regular) all in drop pods. I dropped the dreads into the enemy to keep them busy, then charged my 101 jump pack equipped marines across the table. It was a blast. Even took down a titan with the command squad!

Bunnahabhain
14-03-2008, 17:29
He's not far off the mark, I think. If you use the Renegade Militia list from IA5, you can potentially have 6 units of 50 strong Workers Rabble units, equivalent to Guard Conscript platoons, except they have the option to all wield CCW's.

At around 1500 points you can have 300 CCW equipped conscripts, 2 Basilisks and a Renegade Command Squad.

I speculate that such an "Assault Wave" style army could overwhelm most opponents through sheer numbers of attacks and bodies.

Any Nid or Ork horde would go though it with no trouble. You're still going to have 150 bodies coming at you, but moving faster, better in CC, and with better Ld.

Tiamat
14-03-2008, 17:35
For me it's gotta be Orks.

Your boyz provide you with a nigh unbreakable and massive weight of numbers, much of which can be shipped around by trukks for greater speed, that can pin your enemy in combat while the big hitters, Nobz / Meganobz work their way round the scraps one at a time.

Nids also are harsh for the same reasons, but orks are better at it.

Any nid players out there are free to disagree, BUT GREEN'LL SMASH YER 'EDZ IN!

RevenantX
14-03-2008, 17:55
All things considered, the Tyranids are going to be the best assault army; even against your list there Tiamat...Orks get eaten and pooped into new Tyranids the same as all the others; though that mega-armor is rough on the colon.

S'like the fiber of the 40th millenium though.

Tiamat
14-03-2008, 18:18
All things considered, the Tyranids are going to be the best assault army; even against your list there Tiamat...Orks get eaten and pooped into new Tyranids the same as all the others; though that mega-armor is rough on the colon.

S'like the fiber of the 40th millenium though.

You just wait 'till I'm digested, I'll give you such a case of gas!